Welcome to the Commentary Magazine Daily Podcast today's ruddy June nineteen, twenty twenty- I am drama- works. The editor of Commentary magazine Christine Rosen is off today with me, as always senior editor, a Remould high hodgen associate. Editor nor Rossman. High Noah John enjoy yesterday the author of the commentary July August Cover story. America run riot, Wilfred Riley Associate professor political science

Kentucky State University? Hey? Well, how are you pretty good kind of tired, but I'm glad to be here great well, so your cover story is as as become your want as a as a as a player and intellectual describing american politics, and then I can sight you are a myth. Buster, you are a hoax revealer. First piece that you wrote for commentary was an adaptation, of your book hate crime, hoaxes and why they happen, and now you ve written America Run riot, which is an effort to serve correct. The record about power this violence and the aftermath of the George Floyd killing so the pieces just out on commentary magazine dot com. I urge everybody within earshot to read it. So let me just ask it

complicated peace, so there's no get out. There's no log line. There's no! You no sound bite to really describe it, but you are trying to say. Let us just take a look at the evidence in front of our faces and not be distracted by the passions of the moment. If we can do so right, yeah. One of the focuses of my writing is taking kind of that quantitative background from my phd process and trying to take a look at some of the things people talk about in society, a white privileges and example, and one of my books and see whether they actually make sense whether there empirically real. So the Floyd piece which I enjoyed writing for you guys mean that touches on a lot of things like the impact of rioting on small majority on businesses, but part of it is simply looking at the claims that the black lives Matter- movement broadly defined.

Makes, and I mean one of those is that there is a very large amount of hostile interaction between African Americans, especially young men and the police. I believe his chair no be go. I went on Fox news about two years back, and said that every twenty eight hours are young. Black men he's an an unarmed black individual is murdered by the police and simply simply not accurate their other estimates from the Elam camp. This number goes into the thousands there's a book by attorney Benjamin Prompt who is the travel and Martin family attorney called open season. The legalised genocide of colored people arguing that there is a holocaust style targeting of African Americans in the USA and the numbers just don't bear out these extreme clams or if you go to Washington

oh stop police shootings database. Some numerical issues there from time to time the private gold standard I mean in the most recent year on record. The total number of unarmed black people killed by the police was fifteen, that's up from nine, is what that was originally listed as that a number of unarmed people overall and, as usual, these figures about seventy five percent white and hispanic The total number of unarmed people killed by American LEO's combined was a bit under sixty LEO being law enforcement law enforcement, cops basic, you said, sixty sixty tonne were arrived in twenty nineteen, yet has great. Yet a nation of three hundred and thirty one in people and where there are six hundred and eighty eight thousand law enforcement officers? Yes, yet that to me was the most striking thing about

unpacking black lives matter. I mean I'm a black man by background also of irish planes, indian dissent that identifies black eye. I assume there be something to the movement I mean just as there exists. Sexism vistas exist, Anti Semitism, my recent lavishly real. But if you look at their numbers of that factual foundation, I mean that's just not there. The total number of people are. Nor unarmed all races. This includes people with guns attacking the officer. This includes a guy who drove our cap of Anne S. You be total number of people shot by police and twenty nineteen period is a thousand to only two hundred twenty nine of those individuals. Right dignified is african Americans and again that's almost directly proportional. I mean the United States

Eric is nearly fifteen percent black and there is a higher crime rate. At least you talk about violent crimes, police encounter crimes in black communities, so there doesn't necessarily see the cat, the beggar, the doesn't necessarily seem to be Any substantial over representation there at all now there are people, Roland Fryer, great scholar, who will say, if you look at the lower levels of interaction, there cops are ten fifteen percent more likely to be rude to african Americans. I don't know if there's an adjustment made there for class or how the encounter goes or what not to start, that's not good, but even in that paper when he ran his full regression than unpacked police interactions, when it into more serious things, a beating shooting, certainly when it came to, shooting with everything else controlled for white people, were twenty four percent more likely to be shot by law enforcement officers. So I dont really see a there. We don't see epidemic, police violence against anyone backwoods by people.

So you mentioned Herbert economist Rolling Friar, yes, who is also in a peace which is up in our campaign, peace. A lot of this is in your book taboo, ten facts. You can't talk about which you should look up on Amazon, but there was a peace that I think pairs reasonably well with some of the stuff that she wrote about by John Mc Water, published in Quill it which essentially Brigham, brings up the stats that fire notes and there don't case that can be made there about racial element to police interactions, particularly interactions with minorities that involve hand cutting them. For example, earth herb stops stop fall short of aurettes related deaths, but are nevertheless very troubling. Water notes, a variety of other socio economic indicators, demographics signifier that could account for this level of interaction. That appears

excessive and it's sort of other that didn't appear in his usual perch and the Atlantic and had to be published in a heterodox journal, kill it and so it seems like while there's an argument that could be made here and it's one that doesnt discount the black lives matter when entirely it does strike at the heart of their central claim, which is that there is some sort of, as you say, Holocaust and African Americans in this country, and why do you think that it is that they wouldn't make the argument that is more supported and is justified as a fort? Well, because I don't think it is just as or an amended that that's very well phrased. In terms of the argument there, but I mean what black lives matter is saying, is that the union and of course, black lives matter, is a collection of diffuse groups I mean many of which are focused skilfully on local issues. There is no wine clearing house speaking with a single combined.

But when you look at the primary spokesmen for black lives matter in the media, going back to Sean King, their claim has been that there is at epidemic nearly on par with historical reality racism in the United States, and I don't think the argument African Americans are ten percent more likely to be handcuffed. Pass me to tone it down. A bit necessarily, is significant enough to make that point, I mean that there's there's no way to get a book called legalise genocide out of that eyes. There I mean so I actually I'm genuinely interested in these questions and what the effect of racism is on the life of the average working or middle class minority citizen. Probably because I am myself a minority citizen- and I teach it that historically black Alec and it's actually fairly complicated to unpack some of these questions. I mean so. First of all, the main point that I would make about the friar peace is that when you get into extreme police violence, whites were more like

Maybe the targets are just scrolling through the data on a site like W W W that killed by police, that net or in the lab o database, it becomes fairly apparent that the people most likely due shot. My cops are poor, whites and recent. Let you know emigrants if you look at the counties where there's a significant amount of police violence in that patterns, pretty talent, so you don't wanna, be glad about this at all, but I mean you could ask the question: would you prefer to run and fifteen percent in has risk of being handcuffed or of being shot? I dont think friars paper necessarily supports the contention that black, in particular, are abusively targeted, at least as you get up into a higher incidence of the place was gotta even with the lower stuff I wouldn't discounted. That might occur,

I mean as a young man, especially the minority man. You got some pretty negative encounters with the police I have, but to really adjust to really see whether that's the case across all races. You have to adjust for socio economic variables. You have to adjust your behavior It is almost a taboo thing to say, but do all people interact with police in the same way? Is there more

fear or more hostility and black community them in that somewhat plausible. What we do see is that there are some fairly small gaps in four. For the moment, I'm comfortable, as I think you guys are attributing those did perhaps some level of bigotry, but those dont really make the Bee Elam case, which is that America requires system. Why change? And this is an important point- I mean if the argument was body cameras for everyone or we need to take qualified immunity out of police contracts with, I think most people on the centre right would support. In fact, I think that public sector unions and general need to be reigned and on a couple of metrics, but if that were the art,

men, there be considerable consensus. I mean instead you're seeing arguments like well, we need to abolish the police. I am that's not an exaggeration me. There's a New York Times editorial to just said said: yes, what we mean is abolished the police. I dont think that the lower end friar data could necessarily support. That's easy. A focus on you know higher and things that may or may not be real. Well, you know here's what s interesting to me. As you say, will the an accurate Red of all. The relevant data doesn't exist in the arguments that are now in the public, yet they are that data are reflected in sort of the solutions, in the sense that all people are really talking about. Ultimately, here are broad measures: terrain in police agree:

That's right, I mean the soap peep web, but people talking about banning chokehold, end and things of that nature. I think that is in a sense at and by the way and black lives matter. Allies are frustrated by by those suggestions because they are broad and not geared towards race, racial interactions, but I think the fact that those responses ended and those suggested solutions policy illusions are broad- is a reflection of the fact that you can't quite get around the fact that that that that the data aren't there as well as the black black lives, better, would suggest yeah

I think that's roughly accurate. So again, this is one of those things that in a less speech constrained ere, I don't think they would feel the need to say, but obviously we all oppose actual active racism. I am sure we all oppose police brutality dirty cop Then there are a number of things that could be done to improve policing having just starting from the biggest demand, the boy would probably legalise drugs. If I were in a king of the world position which would remove virtually all of those crimes if you do see a significant racial disparity and arrests it's possible, exercise, a level of bias when it comes to rounding up kid. Smoking weed that really doesn't exist, make up the same murder, sexual assault, mean if a murder victim was killed by italian american mobsters, the it is not going to be feasible for the police to pursue a black guy as the murderer

so I mean there are things that could be done to eliminate potential by us at its source at the level of rewriting legal code, but more real. Quickly in the modern climate I mean again, I don't have a problem with banning Ok, so I'm not in the end the decision maker chair there, I think most but would favour body cameras for the unbelievably large, something like forty percent of departments that spelled out at them first securing funding to provide that resource again qualified immunities, an issue you can talk about militarized policing are their certain vehicles. It should be kept in the garage, essentially less there's a swat mission, but you're absolutely right that a lot of this doesn't get to the core claims of specifically Lamb, because it's not racial last whatsoever, and there is a very simple reason for that, and that reason is that seventy five percent of the people killed shot by police are Hispanics or their working income whites there now

african American. So if you want to rein in police behavior, you are, by definition, going to have to write in those things that actually kill people and there's no police behaviour that I can think of that target. Only african Americans No I'll give you an example of this. So you know I think, one of the earliest and most successful efforts at risk, in what was seen to be excessive police I stole or unpleasant interactions with civilians was the war and stop and frisk in New York City right so, and you know the stop and from its purpose, was to get guns off the street that when they stop and first they're looking for weapons, knives and guns and since guns are large- illegal or almost entirely illegal, City in New York state. The presumption would be. If you find someone with a gun, they don't have it. Then

the licence, and so they are. They are committing a crime, Ass time went on when the crime drop of so precipitous was of necessity that stop and frisk was a less successful policy. An aggregate right unawares, more stops fewer seizures of guns because they had got got all the low hanging fruit over the previous years, and so, if you, what you want, it was number ass if he were the and why pity? And you wanted numbers of arrests and all that you actually have to increase the number of these interactions simply to get. You know enough, perps out into the system, and so you could make an argument. I mean I've, I've lesson, but that it to this, but but just flashing eye can make an argument

this was a risk reward or opportunity cost problem that that the that them, the virtue of making these busts. I was not worth the cost in the hospital You know in serve community mood right, but here's the weird part about it, the M so New Yorkers way more hispanic than it is blue- and so you would never know that from the ideological assault, unstopping frisk, but almost certainly it was the case that the majority of people who are stopped and fresh in New York City, since these numbers are not done the up by race. If you're talking about the group of kids on a corner and a cop comes over. It's ok, you know hands on the wall and then you know, does the frisk warehouse

I can not black. They were dominican, they were puerto rican. They were haitian, they were all kinds are they matter? They weren't relations are black, but I'm you know they were yet that, but they were more likely to be hispanic or latina than they were black, and yet this became a thing about how the police department was racist and had to be reigned in from its racist behaviour, so that that's that's another element of the way in which, if you want a reform policing most of the benefit in terms of the lessening of police. You know aggression is actually gonna, be from whites him, his pet ethics and not, and not for African Americans because of the nature of the pop

relation of the country, which is seventy four percent white, fifteen percent black and twelve percent, who spat or something like that yeah. I think that's what you'd find nationally speaking frankly, I mean I'm in Frankfurt, reaches the capital of Kentucky and we're me, an hour from Appalachia, pretty close to the larger cities in the state. Lexington Lowell I mean the worst neighborhood in Frankfurt, our homes street is almost exclusively light. I would bet that the large majority of people in at least Lexington, possibly level that are stopped forest patted down by the police, would be appalache

working poor white, and that is very typical. In a lot of states. I mean West Virginia, some of the coastal states as you move down South Carolina. Perhaps I may not have to go state by state, but it this is never mentioned. These are often described as african american problems and, as you said, that's not the reality I mean in New York that asked that actually is correct. Impaired by the majority of people started from the most ears were its back. Why isn't that disgusting at the look at different community attitude toward the police and toward crime, but the background issue when you get in to stop and frisk something, but a lot of people don't seem to understand. I don't mean to be clear about this, but the police, These are not in minority neighborhoods just because they dislike black people or a piss off liberals,

I mean really going back to Giuliani in Britain and ninety ninety Ford. You guys pioneered this in New York. We did it. Why won't you had with wealth but you're talking about cops, tat policing where you, basically ethnic cell or state of breakdown of the crime? That's going on in your city and you're, going to very specifically flood high crime, neighborhoods with patrol men with officers up through detective level and you're going to look for minor offences. This is sometimes referred to his broken windows, he thinks that the first policing, but to check people to see whether or not they're criminals in to get more severe to get people off the street for more severe offences, you're going to pat people down and look for guns as part of that process. If you find one drivers to get a quote on quote, run somebody warrants, you're, gonna, look for knives and other weaponry. Sometimes people down for drugs, but all that dine in response to pre existing high crime and a neighborhood

and it has had an extraordinary, extraordinarily successful effect on crime rates, so you could be forgiven. I name with the reformation of police practices, preoccupies us preoccupies policymakers because it something that you can actually do. You could be forgiven for thinking that the activists class would view police reforms actually as little beside the point new kind of get to this around the edges in your piece for commentary, particularly in A rather astute anecdote, which you observe that in all particularly Minneapolis, where you have these several blocks that were torched by demonstrators more than a handful of those who are participating in those demonstrations and violent demonstrations were white themselves. Burning minority owned businesses, while carrying the IRA, ironically carrying signs that say black lives matter

what we ve seen really in the in the wake of these violent protests, particularly in a bourgeois publications like the New York Times with a white affluent educator Readership defenses of violent action like this defenses of looting as expressed righteous expressions of the unheard masses, that resonates with a particular group, but it might not necessarily resonate with the people who are most affected by this behaviour on the ground, so our police force just sort of a red herring. Well, I think that that's it that's a fascinating and multi layered I will come of bodies. I appreciate layers well done well that nobody, but ever is interesting like I was looking through a buddies, quite peace recently, and what he was arguing is that the policy positions that are often advocated by groups like black lives matter don't reflect the policy preferences of actual working class, African Americans or other black groups. They reflect the policy.

Efforts of liberal white women who are likely to donate, and I thought that was a fascinating. I bet it's true when all regressions or run if you read the Heather Mcdonald, any of the scholars on the centre right and have taken a lot look at those that of actually pulled african Americans of working class areas. One of the most consistent things you hear from them is that working class areas are under that over policed. So I mean, as I just said, stop and fresh policing. Constant policing is a direct response to crime press at the level of the end of it it will offer on the ground. There may be some bias, but at the level of you, no one police plaza whatever its carbon. In my see there is no racial element. That whatsoever you locate where criminal events are happening, whether that's a Dominican, America, neighbourhood, italian, american neighbour, an african American,

and you send officers- and I know that over the past twenty five years, neighbourhoods and all those demographics have received extra officers and that's generally fairly popular with the people in those areas. Even if we are talking about a disproportionate rates of staff, impressed frisk by the way you have to compare those two crime rates, They have a deviation, but when people say well play the New York, it was a african american men are four times as likely they're very similar size population to be stopped by police officers than white men, New York City, that's known for having a disproportionately affluent white population Chicago as well, and a disproportionately working for black population. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the black Violet street crime rate were four times the white. St Grant ran on their part that would hold druv corporate grants, but I would bet that in very many cases perhaps five percent effective raises when the margins but you're gonna be seeing these police that's effectively match the pattern

crime. There aren't a lot of you: no upper Middle class Manhattan matrons out their robbing people, so there much less likely to be arrested or to be handed down by the police, but at any rate. Yet I dont think that police reform is very popular with people put about living in the hood, although they would certainly preferred and any abuses that are occurring. I think police reform is advocated by people who flee a general slate of upper middle class left wing, social policies and the reason I say there are let a layers to that question. Yet the thing that actually I mean, I'm a big city domicile fairly hard to a Finn, but that offended me the piss me off about me Specifically Minneapolis Riots was that you had it wasn't scattered caucasian demonstrators I dont use riders of any raise. You had a bad. There was at least fifty percent white Got too late street burning down the city's traditional blackened asian business District so

literally had white thugs. Yelling black lives, Manfred said it wasn't it it's an interesting counter example to the riots. Nineteen sixty that destroyed the H street at Washington and other places where the idea, was that they were burning down white own businesses in black neighborhoods that worked out. This was the general tenor of it Jewish out, why don't businesses that were supposedly gouging the the people with unfair overleap, pricey, groceries and and goods, and so this was a kind of a war. Against you know. People who al short in twenty five years later would call white interloper into the area. Now In these areas you have an extraordinary number of minority own businesses, and so any justification for that is lacking, and even though

The justification that I didn't sixties was at a horrible justification and, Incredible irony, as you say, of white people, middle class, white people burning down working class, black people, businesses and looting- is in mind, boggling, like I, don't know how you how you get to the bottom of the ironies, thereby there, I want to move on to the re sharp Brooks case, because one of the things in your he's, as you say, these encounters are complex. Then ultra between the officer in Minneapolis and and George Floyd, maybe more complex. Then anybody realises, because of this bizarre detailed, that they were both bouncers at a club in Minneapolis. At the same time, we don't no one's ever gotten to the bottom of. Did they know each other? What theirs?

was there was their prior hostility between them. That plays a role here which would vitiate, potentially not Vichy, but Wouldn T Raiseth, cop killing black Guy narrative that you might necessarily think it was. Maybe it is. But you know, complexity is part of what happens here and there is no more complex event. Then this re shard Brooks thing in which fifteen things happen in the space of thirty seconds and this district attorney in full, How do you simply? You know, Sir says? Oh it's very clear. You know you shouldn't. Have he wasn't loved Sherman, the back he should have. The cops should have known that the taser wasn't effective as though, like it's, eleven o clock at night and somebody's being shot at, and he spoke to go through a whole ratiocination where he understands the risk rewards and the regulations that are

should be attended upon right. Yes, so there there's a lot there I mean so again. This gets into the use of kind of modern, empirical methods, qualitative and quantitative to sort of analyze things. I mean for your correct that the George Lloyd CASE, not first of all, I ever time, discuss the George flickers. I say on the record as someone with some legal background. I think this certainly technically qualifies as a murder pinning bearing their multiple categories of murdering only to get into the habit it disgusting video. I would. I would have brought charged against all of the officers involved, and that is what occurred no excuse for that terrible policing. But with that said, the narrative that this is a bunch of- and it is always the same- narrative read the narrative- that this is a bunch of k, K, K, level, racist white men killed. A black man for existing is not valid, even in the George Void case. The most obvious example of why you were talking about this now is that two of the officers

the same were men of color. I mean that's again one of those things that your sort of supposed do not discuss, as is the fact that flight and children, although certainly new one another, they both been bouncers at a large Minneapolis Latin themed night club, for, as I recall, something like ten years. That is something that could have been swept into the ether. The narrative, to be maintained, but at any rate I would thank, for example, is of more descent coup is, I believe, of korean and hispanic descent and very likely very unlikely, bia, hearted conservative, by the way, for your degree and sociology from the local college, like that, this was a very diverse group of officers and use them. Trajectory pictures online, but I'm just going to assume Lane was caucasian and save fifty fifty. But the idea that this was a group of clansmen attacking MR for me that that's not correct to have these guys were non white guys with no substantial plans of at least Rachel

as a Sheldon himself. Was it an interracial marriage other that happen? Viewed someone of asian American rode after american heads, but his wife was from the Philippines. Saying will all these people are bigots and we haven't made any moves past bigotry that doesn't seem even describe decades, but that case with such an abuse of police power that I think we can say well, it's good that those four men are facing charge. It doesn't matter what raise they were. The re shard Brooks case, though, is an even more extreme example of sort of total narrative collapse. I'm viewed the tape. I wasn't there at the time, so I could give an opinion on whether this is whether this is police abuse. But that's a very different situation and its it says at the very least. This is something that probably would not have even been considered as the basis for a criminal charged for a cup of any raise ten, years I mean what happened in the re. Shard Brooks case is that a guy passed out, intoxicated as I understand it, the drive through a busy Wendy's,

I would assume their cars, backed up behind him. First, substantial distance officers arrive on the scene. There absolutely professional left the opening portion of the Brooks videos them talking in. Forty minutes, buddy you're gonna have to take a breath. Lies are no. We can't let you off home, where they attempt to put the cost. Unbroke saying is fair to say, Brooks freaks out. And we now know the reason for that and bring this up because it's relevant here is that he has an extensive, violent criminal history and he would have popped, probation and gone back to prison. Had he been arrested so Brooks, as he becomes aware of this fight the cops they know how to fight, but he clearly doesn't well. He beats up both of them basically grabs a taser from one of the officers, this guy stuff concussion during the fight and runs away with the stolen police drank taser in his hat when a cop chases and he turns around and fires the taser out of this is in the longer cut of the video you see he misses his head and his eyes by. Maybe a foot, foot and a half

and the police officers in this situation, where they're both basically stands, five feet from each other fires at Mister Brooks and shoot him. They want to be when they die. But comparing back to something like the George Floyd killing is extraordinarily bizarre. You can debate whether or not you can shoot you should shoot a primary weapon at someone arm. The secondary weapon. I actually have a sideline in pistol instruction. I mean it's, it's a it's a tough call to make let's say but presenting this as sort of an individual being MA for being black borders on the sea. I mean this is right, then right and then you have. I couldn't even call it a rush to judgment the pull the police chief results,

the mayor of says the city is in crisis and then a district attorney who was a losing in a dinner in a very close up, a battle in a proper democratic primary race and has all kinds of charges being levied ethics and personal peccadilloes. Levin against them goes for this set of charges before the investigation is completed by the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. So you know at the very least you have the moral panic of the moment. Doing exactly what you're not is not supposed to happen under our legal system, which is it, which is a widow, a rush to judgment and a presumption of guilt, which is, I think, pretty much, what that press conference with the

this return. He really sounded like I mean it was basically not just that he was charging him or below a looking too but it was kind of like these summation of the prosecution at a trial. He did this. He did this for two minutes. He did that for three minutes. They see that clearly he kicked him, which is the opposite of true, like it's not clear, it's not clear. They kicked him, it's not clear. They were standing on. I'm not none of that is clear from the same evidence that we can see right. So all I want to bring up is these are complex incidents and the passion of the moment is to reduce them into a moral pageant in which a mustache twirling villain, who represents the mustache twirling villainy of America, is

abusing and killing somebody who, at the very least, shouldn't be dead right. That's you know at them at the most is a totally innocent mark. Well so, if you're, something that I mean were beating up on the mess of veal and movement pretty substantially here and something that I think they do have a point on it does just that. I find this company is the issue of police culture and policing and in particular, on the hypothesis that you were there. Sparked all of this. The arrests related death of George Floyd. As you say, the racial make up of the attending officers in that event doesn't suggest get out of group clansmen, but it does suggested a level of tribalism within the culture of police that at least even if they found those eight minutes. Forty five, whatever seconds discontented, They didn't act on it for whatever, whatever inducements, whenever incentives led them to run,

in tacit in that moment? I think this is pretty compelling and what happened in Atlanta, the night after this officer was charge. Apparently Hola officers didn't show up demonstrated, you know we can. We, we have the power to affect the situation as well. If they perceive themselves to be beset by some, form of institutional oppression. It's one that you can understand. But nevertheless, if these charges don't don't stick if he's been overcharged and they can't prove that in a court, then to demonstrate that sort of that that level of frustration with the system- is a vote of no confidence in the system akin to anything we seen in the streets over the last two months. I find that extremely discomforting and an abdication of their responsibilities in their jobs. Now I guess that you can justify that, but you can also

if the sense of oppression that is felt among rioters and looters, we ve seen it alot and its rather knots of especially compelling, so I wouldn't find the dead whenever justice, patient. These officers made to walk off the job as compelling the vote of no confidence in the system. That interesting moral statement I mean I I try to be moral in my day to day personal in business life I mean, I think, morally, I think morally, that is in fact bout. I mean, if we're going to frankly pretend if you look at any serious, anthropological study that morals are ultimate and shared among people. I do think that the baseline ass to be people have to obey the damn law. I might help in that civilized enough, and I mean this to some extent in a positive sense, to go much further than that, I'm not going to obey the law. While you can that you know so

my general someone asked me. I do a lot of african american media. Don't ask me: what do you think the looters and I said well, they should go to prison because they broke the law or jail and someone asked what do you think about tat and I think I'm gonna prisoner jail if they broke the law? I mean George Floyd's murders they present or jail. Can they broke? The law I'm very consistent about this, so I tend to agree with you. I think that I don't feel so. First of all, when you say you can understand the feeling of oppression that the rioters add, I don't see that the writers had any justifiable feeling of oppression. I mean I'm an upper middle class, black dude myself at its model that brutal compared to a lot of countries, I've been two and half the rioters were white. I mean I don't see any excuse for for them whatsoever clarify its rationalization when they did not find compelled? by the way, the Wendy's, the Wendy's, the Wendy's, that that really works without was black, owned and managed and was set on fire by two. Why

two white women just now, but I mean that no I've about it. I I dont entirely grids. Your point, I think, morally, is absolutely valid, like gap in a coherent system where everyone was handling their roles as they should be handled. Yet the police chief probably has a duty to discipline or even fire. Those officers that cough cough called in sick and resolve caused the loss of oppressing so again as the utterly describing the standard for me would be that at every level the rules have to be enforced. Now, I'm a little more sympathetic to these officers to be frank, because we ve seen the widespread ignoring of the rules throughout this entire process. I mean in a large number of cities, including a Believe Baltimore Atlanta, major world class regional capitals, people that rested for protesting at even rioting were then let go I mean there were, oh bail policies under corona virus. There were cities that said specifically would be immoral to arrest them so

the points they arresting and charging and prosecuting people who were protesting against locked down. And there's they're doing all this other bs. I mean it in New York. Didn't they well the gates of the largest park in one of the jewish community shot because their kids playing at it? The gas reinforcement of locking yours business class and race in this in the city has been well documented and the complaints him people who were in your poorer minority, dominated neighborhoods that they were being over police as opposed to places like Chelsea appears when they let everybody go free. The cities This was to say, ok, well, we're just gonna enforced Chelsea peers run by the way go at what one of the reasons I I think your point is morally opposite, but but is us slightly after the side is that police officers are are are are working. Men who they are not in the military, and they are not. You know they haven't been in.

Pressed into service in in the draft. They can take a day off and they can take a day off if there that you can make an argument that it's probably a pretty good idea for some He who is in an emotional extremest over something like the feeling that there being that people are out to get them that maybe it's a good idea for them to cool off and take a day off. That doesn't mean that they should, if they're on duty, and they refuse to respond to calls and things like that. That's a problem, that's a disciplinary problem for the department that it would need to deal with, but I mean is it if it is this, civil disobedience and responds to a presumption of institutional oppression, but that by there. But it's not you sit out of Europe, whether you have a claim. It would also have to claim it you're not saying we. We are refusing to come to work because you're you're being unfair. There

it's not going to work there. Just they have that made me back and say that may be bad, but you know it is they haven't negotiate, negotiated contracts that apply that offer them personal days and things like that so and personal days or days you can take Well, you don't have to give a reason, we're right, they'll, I'm just saying I'm not I'm not defending it as a method, but they're, not a wall like they're, not they're. Not. In the military and they're not like refusing to go onto the battlefield. That's not it's not the same thing, but what does this also gets into again, like, as I said, ultimate morals and, in my relate in anthropology cousin discipline to my own, there seem to be about eight or nine human universals. Like don't eat people,

beyond that. We to some extent makeup morals at the level of code writing developing law, and I absolutely agree. I don't want to just repeat myself and I actually agree people should follow the but there is also a kind of a grey area of plausible deniability. When you get into this sort of thing is John just pointed out, I mean so yes what would happen I'd say about these officers is well. You got approve it if you're the man I mean, if police officer is stupid, out of a better word enough to say I am very upset by the current police chiefs policies- and I am pro, passing by illegally MAC coming to work that I should actually be fire, he open we did an immoral thing and admitted it, but I just wonder there. I just want to move off this for the last couple of minutes, because something else that you have been involved in, which is the seventeen seventy six project, which is an answer to the sixteen

team project. We have gone from protests against a you know, a video that showed a cop, the elements of his neck for eight minutes and and forty eight seconds three weeks later or whatever for weeks later to people in Portland, pulling down a statue of George Washington last night, as though he was a statue, it were a statue of Saddam Hussein and there seems to be a through line here right there. This these are connected event somehow- and I just think maybe you have some words of wisdom on this Anderson and how they have been connected, and why that is so dangerous. Ok, I do actually. I think that what connect and many of the injured you referred to, the destruction of the George,

Washington, statues, correct that there is a link out. A mayor butts respect. Yes, I think what connects a great deal of this, whether you're talking about the rioting in the street, What are you talking about the demands for massive reconstruction if you will of american policing or american legal codes? If you talk about the destruction of statutes matter, confederate enemy generals, did. The very founders of the country, the underlying narrative behind a lot of this is what, when I speak, I sometimes called the sixteen nineteen narrative, which is that it erika- is an existing evil society. We were founded on sleep Marie and the destruction of native Americans are found. Ideals word. Never sincere. Most. American wealth comes from the oppression of others, and essentially we should turn over the keys to the country.

He to a better, newer braver, more multicolor generation that deserves it and a great deal of this happens to be nonsensical. It is definitely true that, during the unfortunate period of history, when most nations were formed on conquest and most nations had slave we engaged in conquest, we had fled, but there also is a shining element, the american ideal. I mean we were the first large modern democracy to a very real extend was when argue, the venetian republic. We are one of the few societies around the world that has ever truly open her borders to immigrants from virtually everywhere, which is how we happen at the groups we ve been discussing in this conversation: Irish Americans, Italian, Americans, West Indian, black Americans, jewish American, so down the line and empty

prickly many of the claims that are made by advocates of the one thousand six hundred and nineteen position or simply falls slavery, obviously, and rich individual flintheart at plantation owners. But if you look at any accurate economic census of the United States, the Antebellum South was a feudal backwater about on par with the regions of Russia that also relied on surf agriculture. Since it was abolished in eighteen. Sixty five, the american economy has grown something like eleven thousand percent. I have to change my actual figures. We didn't for that matter, have slavery for four hundred years the USA began in one thousand seven hundred and seventy six. We abolished the peculiar institution at one thousand, eight hundred and sixty five, so I think that we as a country need to understand the stains of our past. While I was understanding the glories of the past and move forward towards the future. This is all a bit political speech making, but it also happens to be real. I mean it's important to have a works and all view of your own society, its idiotic.

Have an all words view of your own society and a warts review of competitors like the societies that are often cited as positive alternatives. China, Germany, I certainly think some things that could be found in their pass, that on par with anything, waved up I'd like to introduce, briefly to this conversation, the Canada culture, has a tweet today and it is doing nineteenth June thirteenth. She notes that a happy and has a whole junk we should say, is the is the serb park in amateur of the sixteen and nineteen Programme Unrove Prize winner as a result of it Happy Emancipation Day? She rights. It is not a matter of patient and just a few facts, the? U S was third to last in the Americas to abolish slavery. I don't know if that's necessarily true, but it is certainly true that most of the western European nations that were sovereign over just about all of the western hemisphere at that time? Didn't abolish slavery earlier than aperture, attributing that to western european political thought, the emancipator

proclamation came about partly because enslaved people self liberating by the thousands, don't let them tell you we just waiting to be free from this- is that This is the historical narrative that obtain now in just about all of a feat, liberal thought it is really self destructive right like so if you go to any rational and not not true? So if you go to that argument, so this was the point. So first the confederate statues than preferred flag were out? There was a serious and sustained discussion about whether or not there should be tributes to the confederacy, which I think there shouldn't be for obvious reasons, including the fact that the can Percy was an ignoble effort to destroy the United States, the nonetheless so you know so so that happened and now

and if you move on there is this argument. Well, Thomas Jefferson was slaveholder. George Washington was slaveholder and therefore because they were so holders. We should not honour that. Well, that's a disgraceful thing to think I think, but it out, but it's not it's not dismissal off that. You know like at root right, you simply ok, but what had to cope with Nicole Hannah Jones, doesn't that tweet is she's going after Lincoln, now see she's going after Lincoln. The emancipation proclamation was nonsense. We were for, we were liberating ourselves, and this was just some you'd have face saving effort. To pretend, that you don't Lincoln didn't run, did not wage the war to end slavery, win it yeah I've ever contaminant that obviously there was a great deal of heroic black resistance to slavery or, as theirs

there has been heroic resistance around the world by slaves of all colors to slavery, but there's and only as I understand one successful slave revolt in history that produce the nation of aid. Even Spartacus failed and was crucified by the roadside. The reason that slavery ended the United States is that the Union Army composed of emigrants all around the World- Free Blacks, quakers, so since every variety conquered the south and killed one in Florida fighting men in the region. That's what free the slaves and you could know that if there was a bill due for slavery, the USA's very arguably painted blood. Six hundred ten thousand people died during the civil war and the population of the country at the time was, as I understand, under a hundred million one sleigh with nine June, no nine slaves were freed for every union soldier that died. I believe

would be the figure. So that is what ended slavery and, as we move forward towards a broader analysis of these questions, I agree with you guys know sympathy whatsoever as a black man for the confederacy, I mean in a sentence. The confederates were races, traders that lost that's that's about it, but when you look at some of these questions, the reason that we shouldn't have statues of confederate generals in the centre of town squares of that they were there, It is, on the other side, growing get into these deeper questions like should we ever honour anyone who fought no war of conquest or ever outer anyone who owned the slave? If we didn't given what human history used to be, we couldn't have statutes of ETA. One including the great native American Chiefs, for example. So it is very important: is one of the oldest cliches and an ethics one or two glass, but it's very important to judge people if again we're gonna use moral standards at all by the standards of their time.

A hundred years from now. It would be absolutely ridiculous for people to tear down a statue of bill Plant nor George W Bush, because he ate factory farmed meat. I believe that is something that will be seen as an absolute atrocity down the road that we took these animals with cheap act right use of forty or fifty pigs, much less chance. We all of these storehouses, an abuse them, but as of right now. Unfortunately, that is characteristic of society that almost everyone benefits from. I dont think that we can judge each individual and our society is flawed, because a bad or because all right ideas about destroying environments on Ok, so Wilfred Riley. Thank you so much for joining us today. Please everybody red wills, peace, America Run Riot Commentary magazine, dot com go to Amazon by his book, hate crime, hoaxes buys book taboo I hope, you'll be he'll, join us again and we certainly hope to have back them our pages

for many years to come. So thanks a lot for Noah AIM and the absence of esteem Rosen, I'm John, had words gives a candle burning.