Support for this. Podcast comes from pico people, helping homes and businesses save money without ladies Ellie these last fifteen times longer than traditional bulbs and use up to eighty five percent, less energy, so they're good for your pocket, your bottom line and the environment about your old bulbs for energy saving, a and get instant savings as a pico customer stock. Up, while this and incentives last for info. Are you can start? Saving today? Is a pig oda com, Slash Ellie, do high crime, junkies and happy Monday, I'm your host Ashley flowers and I'm bread, I'm here to tell you a pretty recent story: one out of Toronto Canada, which, by the way but we're like making, are Canada debut this summer, rejected July, show in Toronto. For anyone who hasn't paid a dungeon, I'm, u can see everything. Our events page, if you're not listening to this two years from now, but the store, that I have a little bit of everything from mystery and intrigue.

Murder and money a lot of money. This is the story of berry and hunt. Sherman, it's ten o clock in the morning. On a snowy December day, an elite stern is just pulling up in front of fifty old colony road in North York, Ontario she's working with another realer to sell this six bedroom, nine bathroom mansion belonging to pharmaceutical industry, billionaire bury Sherman and his wife of forty seven years honey. Now,

he'd been showing the house, but so far no real, like solid bites. Elisa tried to reach the Sherman this morning, because she had a potential buyer that she wanted to bring by, but they weren't answering their phones. Now, she knows, berry and honey are down to cells, as she just kind of goes ahead with the showing any ways and hopes for the best. Now Ben Ali, arrives. There are two people already in the house: a housekeeper who comes weekly on a set schedule and a woman who comes like a couple of times a week to take care of their plans, the homeowners cars or outside, but it turns out that they aren't home and it's a little strange, but actually kind of works out perfectly since she showing the home so the prospect, buyers and their agent and arrive at least begins the tour. They start upstairs with the specious master. The spiral staircase that jacuzzi tubs then they had to the main level. She shows them. The large kitchen the dining room, more bathrooms, and then they had to the lower level, which is much bigger,

even the upper levels and Elise leads them down a hallway, pointing out the garage and the sauna This house's bananas by the way like I urge all my legs, sixteen hundred but home at the gate was massive, and this gives the crazy you have. This seems like excessive, so they get to the end of the all. Were the sermons hide in indoor lap pull that she knows. These potential buyers are eager to see it's one of the biggest selling features of this house, but when she opens the door to the pool room, she sees something she could never have prepare herself for two people fully dressed backs to the pool held up any seated position by something tight around their necks note: she's got the other real iter and these clients right behind her. So, even though she does know exactly what it is that she's looking at she knows it isn't right, though she quickly reverses out of the poor whom telling the buyers that this area is kind of off limits at the moment and will have a chance to take it

Sir look another time. It they're serious about purchasing the property, so she walks the other real iter in his client up the stairs and ushered them the door as quickly as she can, while still trying to be professional, all the while oh Elisa mind is racing, she only caught a glance in that poolroom and it's like brain is turning encircles trying to figure out what it was that she sought. So she sends the cleaning lady downstairs to the pool room for a second look when the the keeper returns a minute later. She is white as a ghost and tells Elise to call the police, but Elise doesn't call the police what I note so instead, Elise, as first call, is too honeys sister, Mary, the sister who helped the sermons with their real

state transactions, so someone Elise, would know pretty well Mary, isn't even nearby she's actually in Florida. So it's not like she's gonna pop in and help with any night, not totally sure why she called her other than maybe just not knowing what to do but either way. It's another hour and a half before Elise finally calls nine one one. Why did she waits along its heart and for sure in the book the billionaire murders by Kevin Donovan. He says that after Mary gets that phone call from elite, she meaning Mary calls, burying honeys, Fort children which are Lauren Jonathan, Alex and Kalen. So it's possible that Elise was waiting for them to be notified before she did anything else like given berry and honeys in the community as little billion air business owners and philanthropists. I'm sure he's and Mary had the sense that once police arrived, the media probably wouldn't be too far behind. Ok, I guess I can see that like their pillars, the canoe

It's not really news! You gonna hear about your parents like on twitter or something right. Emma you'd want to hear that from a loved one. So, just before now on December thirteenth. Two thousand. Seventeen Elise finally makes that call to police who, mediately respond with officers along with fire fighters and paramedics what they find in Sherman home his, unlike anything, meet seen before. First of all, both berry. An honey Sherman are deceased and likely had been for some time, based on the condition of the bodies that he and the humidity in that poolroom made it difficult to figure out exactly when the two might have died, based on just like a first look, but investigators knew that it wasn't that morning, but it's how their bodies were found. That

the part that shocked even the most seasoned first responders bury Sherman was seated legs stretched out in front of him. His right leg crossed neatly over his lacked and his jacket was pulled down a bit from his shoulders kind of like you would like shrug it often shimmy it down, and this basically helped hold his arms at his side and his glasses were still perched neatly on his nose. The way that they always were there wasn't a here out of place. Now. Honey was next to him in a similar position. Seated upright legs stretched out in front of her, and her coat was also pulled down her on her shoulders. Now that's creepy enough, but the even creep. Your part was that the set up of these bodies bore a striking resemblance to a sculpture that the Germans had in the tv room right across from the poor so brought. You heard the description of what the bodies were positioned like

I'm in a son you this picture. Oh my gosh. These statues are like exactly how you described very and honeys bodies. It's weird and they're, not even like form. Manna kins there, like made of different colors. They almost look like a muscular statue enemy like while the skin we're off like some sort of like anatomical figure, is what it looks like. So both berry and honey were seated with their backs to the pool, but right now, you may be wondering how they were sitting up right and not slumped over or laying down we'll bury and honey each had a leather belt looped around their necks tied above them too. This like low reeling that went around the outside of the pool and it was the belt that held their bodies in place. Now the only sign up kind of struggle are injuries to honeys, face what exactly those injuries are and what cause them are still a little bit of a mystery, because police have now

released details about her injuries, it's obvious to everyone on the scene that something suspicious has gone on here. Police waste, no time calling in the medical examiner and the forensic crime scene team to begin and investigation. It's just before four p m at this point, just a few hours from the police call when the first media story goes public, saying that two bodies have been found in the Sherman home within a few minutes, a friend and colleague of the Germans, who was an elected official in fact, tweeted that berry and honey had been found dead and just like that everything changed reporters descended on the Sherman home Camera roll as the medical examiner takes the bodies away from the scene for autopsy. One of the detectives comes out to say that they're treating the death as suspicious and so there's this buzz around that they dealing with a double murder. Homicide now remember at this

wait. The media have no idea how berry and honey died or how their bodies were found em if they could have very well been accidental deaths for all they know. But finally, one of the detectives on the case comes out to speak to the media. There isn't much, he can say he tells them. The circumstances of the Sherman deaths seems suspicious and that their treating the investigation as though they are suspicious? He tells reporters that the forensic He is going through the scene now and ask anyone with information to call Toronto police, and he says, listen will have more for you later. True to their word, not long after a second detective comes out of the Sherman home and stands in front of the growing number of reporters gathered waiting for news, and he again tells them that the deaths are suspicious and that the investigation is ongoing. But he also says that so far they found no sign of forced entry and that they aren't looking for any suspects. Ok,

What does that mean? So that's pretty much what the reporters are thinking to their lives What do you mean? You aren't looking for any suspects, but the detectives won't say any more than that, no force century, no suspects. Now. Obviously, reporters start peppering the sky with questions. Why did they die when were they last seen alive, the house's listed for sale or you looking People who may be went to the house for reviewing the detective answered. None of these questions, except to repeat what he already told them. There were no signs of force entry and they are not seeking any suspects and that's all

he would say- and it's not until the next morning headline news that the public finally here something that puts everything into context and finally makes the detectives comments, makes sense to this episode was made possible by hunting honey. Is the free online shopping tool that automatically finds the best promote codes and eyes them right here? Cart. Everyone, of course loves a feeling of saving money, but how does it feel to save with honey? To me, it feels like the first step of an ice cold glass of sweet tea. I online shopping a lot, but right now I'm online shopping a lot a lot. Recently. I've been trying to figure out what to get my daughter for her birthday. Her birthday party is canceled, so I'm trying to figure out how to make it special for her. While it's just the few of us

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it's free to use and installed in just a few seconds, get honey for free at join honey, dot, com, slash crime, junkie, that's join honey, dotcom, slash, Chrome, junkie,. The morning after berry and honey Sherman were found dead. The media reported based on inside information from police sources, that police suspected a murder, suicide So now the investigators comments about no forest entry and not seeking any suspect start to make sense, but he didn't make as to the Sherman family, not to their closest friends, not the people they worked with and he didn't make

to anyone who knew the sermons, even in passing sure there was no forced entry, but everyone knew that honey always left the side door unlocked. And besides that, the Germans were warm and welcoming people they would have opened the door for anyone who knocked the Sherman family considered the no force entry to be a red herring approved nothing except that buryin honey were friendly trusting people and the Sherman family was more adamant than ever. This was not a murder suicide, so they did what anyone with billions of dollars or a mildly popular podcast would do in the wake of what they saw as an incompetent police work. They started their own investigation and not just like arm chair detective stuff. No, they hired their own team of envy. Two gaiters led by prominent canadian defence attorney Brien Greenspan and they started to fight back that, bearing

day, one day after the discovery of burying honeys bodies, the Sherman family issued a statement to media saying the murder suicide rumors were your response, while and urging Toronto police to quote conduct a thorough, intend, set an objective criminal investigation. End quote so, basically, just do your jobs pretty much. Then they made an important phone com. They called the Ontario Corners Office and asked that they hold the bodies of berry and honey Sherman so that they can do their own. Autopsies can even do that apparently, because the private investigation team was given access to the bodies to perform a second set of autopsies, but not before the forensic pathologist did the first one, the official, what those post mortem happen. And, on the day after the bodies were discovered, an autopsy can be an important source of information. Early on in a case it can uncover. In our information that can help investigators, as they work a case. Things like dna

his fingernails or drugs in their system or whatever injury happened before or after death. These details are important, but the forensic pathologists work is ultimately focused on answering to key questions. Who is this person and how did they die? The second question: how did they die is broken into two components? Really we cause of death and man of Dang and, if you're wondering what the heck the difference between them is, I was too so. Dont worry his eye s, bread to kind of that give us the lowdown okay, so cause of death refers to like zis or injury that like lead to the persons death so like combinations from on an illness or a gunshot wound or overdose stuff like that, but the manner of DAS refers to like how someone died, but what kind of falls into four main cattle so there's natural death, accidental death side or suicide, and there is a fifth option which I'm sure mode

crime Turkey's know about, because its super frustrating its undetermined. That's you is really not enough information to define the manner of death into the four main categories. I can't believe we made it like two hundred episodes and I'm just now getting this explained to everyone. So please don't fire me, but all in all manner of death is what the Sherman family is most interested in. At this point, they were sure that this was not a murderer. Site and they wanted to prove it. But in those early days of the investigation, police were still consider and two other possibilities in the debts. It could have been a double homicide or it could have been a double suicide. They hoped the autopsies would help them narrow this down to one working theory and here's. What the autopsies on berry and Honey Sherman told police first bear highway bone was intact and again. This is that little boat in your neck that we ve talked about on the show before the highroad bone can break when someone is violently strangled, but tends to

Main intact for those who die by suicide, but the highway doesn't always break when someone is mingled. So, while bury sermons intact highways bone doesn't disprove the police's theory of debt by suicide, it isn't a slam dunk by any means. So that's the first thing. The second thing that is obvious to everyone in the room for the autopsy. Is that bury will so here, in great shape even by seventy five year old standards. According to the account of the autopsy incoming Donovan's book, the forensic pathologist, Very little muscle tone in law bone density, a sure sign of a sedentary light, so this kind you tell might not always be important, but it's interesting here, because the police's murders site Beery relied on beery, knocking honey out in another part of the house and then dragging her body to the poor room to pose it in that really specific way, tat we

talked about and based on what they saw the autopsy table. They wondered: was this even possible know that finding from the autopsy that I want to tell you about is the most interesting of all. To me, there were a Asians on bury sermons rests. They had been tied together likely with something like zip ties, so you have to wonder. Does a suicidal man zip tie his own risk before he kills himself and if so, where work the ties or the ropes or whatever he used like. There was nothing else around him and nothing else like that at the scene. Honeys autopsy was done right after and had a lot of the same findings that intact high marks on her wrists honey, is much more active than her husband. She worked out with a trainer every week and gulf as much as she could and unlike her husband, her body showed significant muscle tone and they were roughly

the same weight making it even less likely that bury could have overpowered her. No, I meant before that honey had an injury to her face the pathologist looked at this closely to he couldn't tell exactly what caused it like she may have been hit with something or the injury might have just happen through the course of moving and staging her body, but he did confirmed that it happened either immediately before war sometime after her down, and they would be able to determine that by like baby lack of blood flow. If it happened after she died right, that's I'm thinking there saying immediately before some time after it had to have meant that whatever happened, her blood stopped pumping writer on that time. Probably just because of the way the breathing looks, they could determine that at the end of both autopsies, the forensic pathologists was able to determine that the cause of death for both berry and honey was ligature. Now

compression or strangulation further investigation would be needed to figure out, but what exactly the ligature was, but the thought was probably the belts found at the scene with the frenzied pathologist wasn't able to determine at least not yet was manner of tat again we're talking, murder, suicide, double suicide or double homicide. Ok, but to me it seems, like the evidence, is pointing to a double homicide right, like all of us, the strangulation death, the staging of the bodies, it seems really elaborate for murder. Suicide, like I don't know a ton about them, but from what I've read like they're, usually not this staged and performance, so, even if autopsy can't determine the matter of death like to appoint, there's got

something in those reports as pointing the police away from murder suicide. So surprisingly, they don't get pointed away from that, and mostly, I think, that's because the manner of death is still undetermined, but four days after the official autopsies, the sermons own privately hired pathologist performs that second set of autopsies. Now, when the Anterior pathologist did the first ones he was joined by the investigators working on the case, this is a pretty common practice. So when the privately higher pathologists begins his work, there is really no difference. According to the Toronto star, there were three private investigators in the room. All former Toronto homicide detectives, all hired by Brian Greenspan on behalf of

Sherman children also in the room for the second set of autopsies, was the forensic pathologist who did the first once he was there to basically answer any questions and also brought with him like the photos from that first one and also brought with him photos of the crime scene and of the bodies taken before an during autopsy, just like in the original autopsy. The private pathologist also noted the marks on berry and huh his wrist. He also examined the ligature March on their necks and agreed with the original causing death ligature neck compression, but he went a step further because, based on what he saw, he didn't think berry and honey were strangled with the belts that had been holding them upright. All that day he was unable to say exactly what had been used, but just that it wasn't the belts and when the guy talked people listened he's, not just some random that they pulled up the street. This pathologist was a former Ontario chief forensic pathologist and dirt

the time of the autopsies, was a senior forensic pathologist at Toronto. Children hospital, oh, so not his first radioed all know. I'm in this guy knows what he is doing. I read and art pull in the globe and mail from two thousand seven ten years before the sky was called to work on the Sherman case and at the time he had done three thousand autopsies. So yet not his first radio for sure, and after looking at the bodies and at the crime scene, photos and talking to the doctor did the first autopsy. He had no trouble ruling on manner of death. His autopsy was conclusive. This was a double homicide. This episode was made possible by thread. If you ever looked at your closet in thought, have nothing

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So when burying honey were finally laid to rest at a funeral service attended by more than six was in people. The prevailing notion in the community was that bury had killed his wife and then hung himself. So you set the official government. Forensic pathologists was therefore the second item how do you know if he or like anyone shared the findings with the police, like especially with the conclusion of double

as I had, not murder suicide. So I couldn't get a crystal clear answer on that. What I did find out was that the sermons private investigation team offer to meet with police detectives to go over the findings from the autopsies and talk about potential led than theories. But as far as I can tell, police didn't take them up on their offer and in fact, police kept pursuing the murder suicide theory. Seeking no suspects for another month until January, twenty six, two thousand eighteen, that's when Toronto police finally call a press conference and tell an eagle awaiting public that, based on their investigation so far, which included the work of Ontario, Terrio, friends pathologist. They now consider buryin honeys. That's a double homicide, not only had police, let the first forty eight

by without chasing any leads. This is now forty two days since the discovery of the sermons bodies. Police are facing an uphill battle at this point and Bay again appeal to the public for any clues. This is the first time- and it definitely wasn't gonna- be the last after this now cement. The Sherman family, along with their many friends and supporters, feel vindicated bore a minute, at least because now that everyone, knew it was a double murder. The question on their minds shift it if it wasn't bury who killed the sermons and why it might have taken six weeks, but police finally started looking for suspects. So far they an extensive searches at the house, including on the roof and in the Toronto sewer system around their home, they did countless witness inner use reviewed hours and hours of security for it, including from neighbours who live near the Germans, but they were

closer to assess, backed all they could say for certain. Was that berry and honey had been targeted, targeted like this was a professional hit, I mean that's where my mind goes immediately like to a professional head, but I don't think that's what they met in this case. They just meant that it, wasn't a random act like this. Was an robbery gone wrong right and I guess anybody hired to murder someone wouldn't a silly pose. The bodies like that yeah agree, like the staged deaths. Seen definitely feels like this was person not only have the cause of death, your tongue, strangulation or ligature net compression of pathology is calling it like really personal. Death by strangulation, isn't quick. It can take up to eight minutes. I mean you compare that too a shooting death, which is over in a matter of seconds. This was definitely personal, but there were

no evidence at the scene to help guide them to the killer. Everyone they spoke to. You said that bury was a kind man with a heart of gold that Honey was a friend of everyone believes strongly in giving back to the community in all the interviews police did they heard nothing but positive things from everyone? Well, almost Everyone, so I mentioned the sermons, were billionaires, bury, invest millions in the business ventures of friends and family. He bought houses, properties, cod. As for his children and their families together, berry and honey had donated million to charity and urge their peers would like the wealthiest people in Canada to do. The same thing bury had made his fortune in the competitive and often cut throat pharmaceutical industry, and he kept his fortune by being really good at navigate. The court system. This is where he made

few or maybe more than a few enemies over the few years like. Let me give you an example, so the house, berry, Sherman and Honey Sherman lived in where their bodies were found was designed and built for them in the nineteen eighties. At the time the cost to build the house was about two point: three million, but bury ended up, recouping almost All of that, he almost got like two million of it back in court. By suing the contractor for poor building practices, my God, will and not just one example. There are so many like that overbearing lifetime, he was not afraid of a court room and in fact it seemed he kind of enjoying the whole process in the years just before he died. He was involved in one of the biggest legal actions of his life according to an article by Christine Dhabi in the financial posed, bury got his start in the pharmaceutical industry when his uncle Lou Winter died and bury then studying

Phd in astrophysics from MIT made an offer to buy his company empire labs from the estate, so Loo and his wife, Beverly and actually Beverly tragically die just a few weeks after her husband left behind for young boys. It was, though, boys who decades later sued their cousin, bury for a billion dollars or a stake in his company, which is called architects. They argued that without empire labs, there would be no appetite tax. According to an article in Cleans magazine, the trustees wanted protections built into the sail for the four winters brothers did, it gets a little like legally complicated but bury ended up allowing for those protections sort out. The agreement was that the winters boys could work for empire when they turned twenty one and then at twenty three bakers by up to five percent of the company as long as very still

the business. Now the whole agreement is boy aid, if bury were to sell the business, which, of course, he did so carry winter, and his brothers argued that they had a right to at least a portion of the proceeds of their late bothers company and that five percent of empire was basically five per cent of appetites. Three months before berry and honey were found dead, a judge sided with berry and tossed the case out of court. And on December six just a week before the Germans were last seen alive? Another judge during the winter brothers to repay three HUN, a thousand dollars in legal fees to their billionaire cousin, ouch, oh yeah, and bury had even plan to appeal that ruling he to recover closer to a million dollars in court costs from his cousin. So I mean it doesn't take and vestiges genius to think, maybe that

The winter brothers would like a score to settle, and maybe that's why carry winter the brother at the helm of this legal action against Berry told the daily mail that, regardless of what police had he knew that bury killed his wife and then took his own life because he said that bury had talked about killing honey before carry says. The berry had actually asked him not once but twice in the nineteen nineties to Hell him kill his white Fleet white cat. That's what everyone following the new said to especially the Sherman family, but carry insisted, bury, had hired him to organise honeys death, which he says he did by the way, but very ended getting cold feet at the last minute and they called off the whole thing. Would I don't know why he's telling anyone this out loud? It seems absurd to media, but he's had like he was willing,

go through with it and berries the one that ended up just pulling the plug. Now, there's this episode of sea be seized. The fifth estate called the mystery of the Sherman murders and in it the host actually interviews carry winter about his relationship with berry and about those murder for higher allegations said to have taken place in the nineties Now he tells the feathers state the same story. He told the daily mail by bury him, ask him not once but twice to help him kill honey except the fit state brought in a polygraph expert and carry wintered agree to answer the polygraph us questions and you wanna know the outcome was he had to have failed bingo. Any time carry was asked. Questions related to the murder for higher story. He'd been telling the polygraph expert saw huge spikes, which told them that he was probably lying

when they confronted him with the result. He said. Maybe he was miss remembering some of the facts and he was pretty up front about the fact that he has a long history of drug use and addiction, and he said that this might have been why he was getting the details wrong. But just because this look like it might be one dead, and it doesn't mean that the case is dead because carry winter is just one of the people. Police think may have had both of enough to kill berry and honey they were reasonably certain that whoever killed ban had reasons that were both personal and financial and the other person that they were interested in was much closer to home. He grinned junkies. Before we jump back into the story, I want make sure your listening to my new par cast original supernatural with Ashley flowers. This is another

chance each week for you to hear more mysteries, told by me, and not just the kind we talk about here on crime junkie, but also the kind of mysteries where the facts. Don't you to a logical explanation and the truth lies some the unknown every Wednesday. I'm gonna take a deep Into the strange and surreal to explain some of the world's most bizarre unexplained mysteries of the universe like this week, I have this I can not rat my head around because there are these hikers in Russia who were all found dead after they dont returned from their height, and I know you're thinking like oh cold weather Russia Hiking. I bet I know what happened. You have no idea what happened, because all the bodies were found in different places with different causes and data and there's just one thing that I just can't let go of one the women with missing her. You know why we have priority about two here. Just make sure

you go followed my new series supernatural with Ashley flowers, free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast so that you can hear about. She was missing and why none of this These in this case makes sense. That's supernatural, Ashley Flowers- and if you like, this it would mean so so so much to me, if you left me, a five star view. I work nonsense. To bring you guys the best content and podcasting, and your five year review is what let me know that you're into it I hope you enjoy. The new show that supernatural with Ashley flowers besides carry winter. There is one other person with whom bury had sometimes tense relationship with- and this was his son jonathan- Bury had always been general with his children. Jonathan, along with his business partner, had started several businesses over the years. I mean they had like the green storage company.

Real estate development operation that bought built in Seoul vacation homes around the lakes in Ontario and even an investment company There's no way to know for sure how much his father had provided Jonathan in capital, but it wouldn't be outlandish to consider that it was in the hundreds of millions of dollars, but Jonathan was very much aware that his parents were aging that his father at seventy five years old should be thinking about his return rather than working long hours and making big plans, which is what he was doing and what it always died, it was known among the family and close friends that berries will said this. Basically, when he died, his fortune went to honey when honey died. Would be shared evenly between. Therefore, kids, I couldn't get a good sense of how involved honey was with the investments and gifts we made to their children like the loans and capital that he was given to Jonathan, to get his companies off the ground, but

She knew enough to tell bury that. She didn't agree with how much he was showing out and how often- and I dont get the sense for my research- that it was a source of major tension between them. Just that honey felt they were educated. Kids, who should be able to make their own way in the world, and she wanted them to have that independence in his book. The billion Irma, Kevin Donovan shares text of emails back and forth between burying Jonathan from two thousand fifteen two years before burying honeys debts. Now in these emails, Jonathan was frustrated in particular, about investments. His father was making to his friend Frankie Angelo, who have multiple business ventures over the years and again we're talking not like a A thousand dollars shrugging hundreds of millions of dollars of investments and frankenberry were great friends, but it seem like francs. Business sense was pretty questionable, like nothing was really panting out, bury lost a lot of money to francs investments and it started to frustrate Jonathan

and more than this Jonathan one in his father to start really thinking about a succession plan who would take over architects once bury retired according to his close friends and business associates, bury had no plans to step down any time soon in fact, kind of the opposite. He had aggressive plans to grow the company even for there before. He finally settled into his easy chair, so anytime, Jonathan brought it at bury was just kind of dismissive of the whole idea and at one point years before buryin honeys deaths. Jonathan frustration led him to reach out to his three sisters to tell him that he worried their father was jeopardizing their inheritance by pouring investments in two francs ventures, his other friend. Now he even went so far as to say they should consider removing their father its founder from his position as chairman of the company, and, of course you didn't take long that you need to get back to bury, who basically just like rolled his eyes, lacked off. Saying oh, like there

Jonathan again trying to stage a coup, and so, although jointly with super frustrated, I mean Missus, kind of the normal fight like this between Jonathan and bury, would lead to a period of not speaking, but then eventually blow over. But how in looking at this in hindsight, we have to wonder, was this frustration and worry about his future inheritance enough to make Jonathan kill his parents? I mean we do this every week. We know that any things possible, but I dont know what I think about either of these serious like if we go back to the carry winter theory. If motive was revenge, I dont know that honey would have been a target, carry actually said in his interview for the for the state that he, fantasized about killing bury again. He was way more open and he probably should have been, but he said he fantasized about slicing his throat in the appetites parking

and honey was never a part of this at all over him, and he said he didn't like her much, but that she wasn't the target of his frustration and his anger. It was all bury rate, but I mean other hand. If we're talking about Jonathan in order for Jonathan and his sisters to claim their share of the Sherman fortune, both of their parents had to be gone ways. Berries money went to honey and honey as we know, was not so free flowing with the cash. But there is another theory in the case, one has nothing to do with family or friends, berry and honeys, neighbourhood and north. You work had been the target of a bunch of break ins in the year leading up to their debts and by bunch I mean more than a hundred and fifty during that time

perpetrators would break into the home and then Lee with millions of dollars worth of jewellery and other valuables? In fact, according to Joe Warming, ten writer for the train of sun, berry and honey had in fact been victims. Themselves of these robberies are burglaries, depending on whether or not home. Some one had broken in through their skylight on the roof of their home lowered themselves, in an attempt to steal honeys jewellery. Now I was able to find any information about this specific being like whether the perpetrators were caught. Or, if they made away with anything, but that prior break in likely why police were poking around on the roof of their house right after the murders. Now none Robberies in the neighborhood had ever ended in violence, but it doesn't mean that they never could write like crimes, s The late, so the question is: where berry and honey killed in a robbery gone sideways

it's interesting to me that you said the crime scene itself had almost no physical evidence, because to me like that, seems like it, was done by someone who is good or maybe practised at being a criminal, rather than someone who killed them in like a moment of rage. Yeah I mean that's an interesting point. The police, never entirely spelled out what they mean when they say that they believe the Germans were targeted. I mean I took that to mean that the murders were personal, but maybe they're definition of targeted, is broader than that. Maybe they consider a well known home in a high and neighbourhood, a place that has been robbed before. Maybe they that's target to an almost just on purpose NEA, and I also want to mention one other thing. Apparently, the neighbors security system caught some weird activity at the Sherman House on the day before their bodies were discovered, according the Toronto star, a man parked a Ford or said in front of the Sherman House and walked in and then walked out three different

times between nine and one thousand and fifteen. A dot m leave his car walks in stays a bit and then gets back into his car for a while, then back into the house, and so on three different times, He's believe that burying honey were probably murdered on Wednesday night and, if that's true than there bodies were in that house in their poolroom the whole time now also remember, the Sherman House was for sale and there was a large box on the door. So maybe sky was a real at and had a legitimate reason for being there like police, won't, say much and although say is that their reviewing the footage? So the truth is, we still don't know what happened to bury and Honey Sherman at one point the private investigation team offered a ten million dollar reward for information leading to an arrest ten million dollars. But even with that up for grabs, there's been nothing and speaking

the private investigation team. They announced late last year, this December of two thousand nineteen, that they were wrapping up their work. They handed their files and leads, and hundreds and theories over to the Toronto police and the like, best to get her on. The case has said that the Sherman case is still very much an active one now other in two gaiters on the case had said that they have a working theory of what happened. But it's been well over two years and there have been no arrests, no suspects, not even an official person of interest, and now you might be thinking the best way to solve a case like this would be to follow the money, but even that's impossible to do at least for those of us outside the Toronto police homicide

because the sermons estate files are sealed. The Toronto stars Kevin Donovan, who actually is the one that road. The same book that I mentioned earlier on this case continues to follow this story closely and report on it for the star, and he wrote that berries well was last updated in two thousand thirteen and it left everything to his for children. But he also says that bury was having conversations in recent years about TAT sprang large tons of cash to others, hundreds of millions to honey, to have in her own name hundred the millions, maybe even the majority of his fortune- we're gonna go to charity. What, if anything, bury sermons, will would tell us about his murder? We don't know, but police continue to work the case and ask for the Public support that unprecedented ten million dollar reward for information is still available and tips hymning made anonymously through crimes stoppers at four one thousand, two to twenty two

if you want see any pictures from this case, especially the one of the creepy statues that they were facing? You can find that in all of our shores, cereal on our website. Crime, junkie, podcast, dot, com, be sure to follow us on Instagram outcome, junkie, podcast and we'll be back next week with a brand new episode

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