Better help is professional counselling done securely online right from your own home. Not only is this not a crisis line or self help, it's more affordable than traditional offline counselling and again, the comfort of my own home sign me up. Is it better help dot com, slash crimes on key? That's better h, e lp dot com sash Turkey to join the over one million people who have taken part of their mental health with the help of an experience professional thanks to better help. Does everyone in your house feel safe, it's worth to talk about it and if they don't the small easiest up of using simply save homesickness. Systems to customize your home security could go a long way to make sure everyone in your home feels safe, good is simply said: dot com, slashed crime, junkie right now to get a free, secured, a camera and begin

customizing your security system today, that's simply safe dot com, slash crime, junkie, high crime junkie I'm your host Ashley flowers and did you guys also and I'm print with me? Oh my god, have you seen that all over the internet to her parlor twitter? I love it so much yeah. Apparently it's like a whole fake, where everyone says it along with you, which I didn't even realize on this end of things, and I didn't love it that much it's my favorite thing. I think it's what I love about the show, what I wanted it to be when we started it right that no matter who you are Amy Michael Nina, whatever we're all brats yeah yeah for an hour every Monday, you guys are all it and I think it's amazing. I love our little crime, junkie, nation and our nation is getting really really big. Our nation is global and we actually have a global case today outside of the U S, because today,

I want to tell you about a story that, on the surface, seems to have all the by means of an open and shut case when a woman and her young daughter or found brutally murdered in their home, the focus eventually turned to the person who is supposed to have love that more than anyone else in the world, but even after police uncover a steady trail of tax, money and lies, questions remain to this day, some feel that they have never been properly answered. This is the story of Christine an amber

Monday. On the morning of August thirty, two thousand in Palmerston North, which is a New Zealand North Island, a meal named Glenn. Waggery is getting ready to go over to his older sister, Christine London House. Glenn is self employed with zone trucks. Business and he's actually going overture, Christine's house to pick up these tax papers that she's been helping him. When you see Christine, is action

in business herself. Her and her husband mark, sell kitchen sinks and, like benches and stuff- and she keeps the book for like this whole operation. So she's, like the perfect person for Glenn to turn to about five stuff? Oh totally, my sister runs the books for my family and I always go to her for like tax questions. Help me please. It's like that from Friday help me import literally, so Glenn calls over to the house to make sure that she still ok with him coming over like they planned, but when Christine doesn't pick up the phone he decides to just, kind of head over anyways like he lives close by she knows he like there's gonna, be there maybe she's just like busier doing something, and he gets there some time around. Ninety no Glenn doesn't use them.

Front door. Instead, he goes around to the back like he usually does get. This is totally like. I thought about your house. You, I think I ever use your front door in my entire life through them. Yet no one does everyone gets the back totally normal, so these back door actually goes directly through the can Victoria, which were like a brief second, my american brain, was like what is a conservatory but then my baby crying junkie, memories came flooding back and I was like Mr Green in the conservatory with a knife. My fellow clue playing junkies will know it's like a son room. Basically what we would call here, the US I mean. I would also like to point out that we are in over three years of crime junkie and we ve never talked about how we play clue all ties and I one never always beat me anyway, so waiting to news. Have New Zealand, Glenn notices the sliding door is open and not like

Let me just like a little crack open like the two to three foot gap, but you know he just kind Whatever you she's got a kid he's coming going, maybe she locked it open and he goes into the house till he doesn't find it we're. That there is just a completely open door. There are not at all known that doesn't sound like at least from the research that I found he just kind of goes inside. Whatever going on in his head, though. Glenn calls out a hello when he gets inside the house and even though she's expecting him their Christine doesn't answer at First Glenn. Things may be and hear him, maybe she's back and make their home office and doesn't know he's there yet, but when he calls out again- and there is still no answer- the hairs on the back of his neck start to stand out,

with this strange feeling. Growing stronger Glenn goes further into the house planning to go into Christine's office, but once he gets into the hallway he sees something that makes his heart stop in his cast their base down in the doorway. To Christine and Marks bedroom is glens. Seven, your old niece amber. He's lying motionless in a pool of blood in the back of her head has been split. Oh my god, Glenn rushes to the phone to call for help telling the operator that he is calling to report a murder like there's no question about what this is, but glens nightmare isn't over. Because, while he's on the phone and checking Amber's pulse, he finally gets close enough to see inside the bedroom, where his sister Christine is lying naked and

Bad face motion was all so with blood everywhere While Glenn is waiting for the first responders to arrive Christine's best this woman named care and actually comes over and chickens. All the time to go for these, like normal walks with Christine so she's, just stopping buys part of her routine now glens say tell her like: listen, you dont want to come inside, like you, don't see what happens What to see your best friend like that, but Karen goes in any way. Only to be confronted with this same awful see the two of them sit huddle. Together in the dining room until police and ambulances arrive and when they do, they take over this scene they lock down. This is a crime scene. Now, just a few minutes ass this would be right around nine twenty in the morning, the phone range. Now Karen answers. The phone

and on the other line, is Christine's husband, Mark who's away on a business trip in Paton about two hours or so to the south of where they live, and you know what he's at this time he has no idea. What's happened with coaching from police caring tells the hardest lie of her like that. Christine can't come to the phone right now, but shall call him back ass soon ass. She can. Why did the police tell her delight to him? You know, I honestly don't know it kind of feels a little weird to me. My god is that they didn't want him learning that some her like, I would imagine you know, she's, obviously so close to the family. We know that they always look at spouses or family members, and I'm wondering if they wanted to like see his reaction right like are you surprised, are you

but I don't know when they were planning on telling you, because the guy's far away like someone, the what we're to me is why they didn't say like. Oh, she can come to phone when you get back where you should head back now, but he was but plan to be back like later that day. I think so. I dont whom I was a long way me saying. I have no idea. Ok, ok, now at the scene, when the police are shocked at the viciousness of these murders as they start to process the scene base on Amber's position in the doorway of her parents bedroom. Their first thought is that maybe she had come in salt what's happening to her mom saw Christine being attacked, and then she problem We would like trying to flee trying to escape when the killer went after her, so she wasn't necessarily a target. We don't know if the killer would have gone out her afterwards, but likely she stumble on something she wasn't supposed to see. So When you said earlier that she was lying in the doorway, is she like Langley Cheese, out of the room like like feet in the room

torso in the hallway that exactly, even though Christine and Amber have pretty clearly in bludgeon to death. There is no sign of a possible murder weapon during the initial searches and they want have a better idea of what killed them until they get the autopsy results back during the early searches inside the Lundy House, police find a couple of important clues, so first They find a window in the conservatory that has this broken latch like it's been forced open and there on Same window is dislike bloody smear they don't know who the blood longs to as it Christine as Amber's. Is it someone else's, but they know, is important right now they all so fine in the house, a Mcdonald's receipt that is time stamped for five. Forty three p pm the night before okay, so his do home the same day,

do. We know when he found out, or did he just come home from his business trip like normal, except the police triggers entire housing crimes in so what I found and from the investigator episode about this case, is that Greece remember he could walls and Karen's like hey you talking on the phone she'll call you back and that's it like nine twenty well I forty that morning, when Christine still hasn't called him back, he starts getting a little nervous. I you know, in a couple of hours. Now you should have called me what's going on, so he calls up. One of his friends is gaining Stuart and he asks or to go check on Christina, make sure everything's, ok, so his body, those over to the house and his buddies than one that finds the like swarming with police and Stuart? Not police actually calls Mark and tells him like hey. You need to get your, but back here right now, so because of that call more hurries back home

He is back, thereby like one fifteen he's stopped by police, but trying into the house and how important listen we can't let you in this is a crime things, that's kind of how he discovers what happened days family now I dont exactly what his first real interaction with police looks like, because when I diving for more information from the earliest days of the investigation like I was looking for some right after the murder, as I was actually shock at how little I could really find now. Part of that might be The fact this was happening really like right before newspapers were digitized, I'm also in the U S. There's some sites I dont have access to stuff could have been suppressed by law. Like I don't know but like there is weird, like silence period that I dont know how things are folding, unlike the day or two right after the bodies were found right, but I think it's kind of telling about that these. Because the same way, we have a blind spot. Looking back on the case, the public really

had a blind spot in the early days of the investigation mean they knew. Something really terrible had happened in that home, but they did a motive, they didn't know how the investigation was progressing or even, if police had any kind of persons of interest or suspect something they were kind of left to wait for bits of information to come out? One tiny bit at a time to tell them whether this was targeted or if they should all be fearing for their own safety of this just random. Oh wow, knelt from what I can tell the earliest article that came out about the case, at least in the archives, that I can access your in the? U S is from the New Zealand Harold on September. Third, so for days, after Amber and Christine were found. This is when the public learns that they both died from what police call quote violent and severe head injuries? This article

but that they also had to be identified by quote forensic means in seven visual. Ideally, that's how bad it was. Oh, my god and police, tell the public in this article like they don't know what caused the Landis injuries yet, but they're asking the public to keep a lookout for clues, which is a little bit vague like what kind of clues, nothing anything to picture of right. You just might not know it now, from what I can this article is also the first time people learn that mark was saved from the attack because he wasn't home and police are talking to him. To see p can help shed some light on why this happened or who could have wanted to do something like this like as if this was a vicious attack, and they really turn to mark for these and there there saying, there's got to be a mode it. What would inspire such a brutal heart, wrenching crime and police really believe at the time that,

if they can find the motive that will lead them to their killer. This episode is made possible by better help. You guys, I got the sweetest message from one of you recently saying. Thank you for promoting this service. It has been a tough year for all of us. I know I personally started counseling this year and it has saved me and I love you hearing from all of you about how you're taking care of your mental, how it can be really hard just knowing where to start like insanely it shouldn't be that hard, but better help makes it easy there

a broad range of expertise available which may not be locally available in many areas, the service is available for clients worldwide, and you can log in to your count any time and send a message to your counselor you'll get timely and thoughtful responses. Plus you can schedule weekly, video or phone session, so you will ever have to sit in an uncomfortable waiting room as with traditional therapy. Better help wants you to start living a happier life today. Visit your help, dot com, slash cringing, that's better help each De L p and join you over one million people who have taken charge of their mental health with the help of an experienced professional. In fact, so many people have been using better help that their recruiting additional councillors in all fifty states there's a special offer for prime junkie listeners. You can get ten percent off your first month at better help. Dot com, Slash Craig Genji.

Well, police are intentionally vague in the media about what they think might have led to Amber and Christine's murders one week into the investigation they Dougal public with what their thinking isn't the motive behind the crimes, if that makes sense, and this one. The media coverage really starts to pick up according to Paul, yet and Allison whore woods reporting for the New Zealand Harold based on initial report from the pathologist police do not think that this was a sexually motivated crimes. So Neither of them had been sexually assaulted. The ban the peace doesn't explicitly say that, but that is the impression that they're giving at this point in time. However, they do make it known that they now think the murder weapon was something heavy with a sharp edge and possibly I handle

and they make a very bold assertion that is heard by everyone: they're, not considering Mark Lundy, assess, backed by time Amber and Christine are laid to rest just over a week after they died. It feels like the whole city is good even along with mark. The funeral itself is I just heart. Breaking with speeches from Christine friends and Amber's primary school teachers, pain to John Ogle. Loose goes reporting for stuff, New Zealand marked spends the service just sobbing loudly and by the time it's over mark is so oh, come with the motion that he literally collapses and actually has to be carried out. Their motions media from all over the area is covering the funeral. They document the whole thing, and there is this one picture of mark the goose kind of viral

Foregoing going viral was a thing. Some people think its heart breaking to see this guy so absolutely overwhelmed by grief. Other people think that it's kind of an act in over the top, in here, but I'm want to show you this picture, which is again like synonymous with the case. The audiences Malaysia, guys ring dark sunglasses, and he's kind of got his arms over a person I sighed kind of keeping him propped up their little gearing yeah yeah. I mean this minute literally burying his family, and he went to being marked for being too Set about it or something I feel ass if he was not upset enough, then we'd be having this exact same conversation just in reverse right exactly I mean. I think this is something that we kind of hammered home with people before. So if he was, grieving and sobbing and hanging on people, and he was Stoa he be too stoic.

Mrs we're like every one kind of sees what they want to see. What this is by far one of the most enduring images. From the whole case, though, after the few Ro, as September continues, and the investigation approaches is one month anniversary, police mountain announced something interesting, and this is really First, new piece of information: the community has gotten since the murders first occurred, police tell the public that Chris, in Monday's jewellery box was missing from the house. Ok, wait! is robbery? Suddenly the motive, it's not actually because, according to more of Allison Horwitz reporting in the New Zealand Harold, it's the only thing. Was missing from the Lundy how yet, and so there is nothing to indicate in that Christine had super valuable jewellery either. So I think what they're putting out the pudding it out to the public to

even see the public has any idea why it could have been taken, because there really is no good explanation for at least not yet anyway, we investigate continues throughout September without any sign of either the jewellery box or the murder weapon, which authorities believe is key to this case bathing in fine these items, it might give them more of an idea who their killer is now, as they keep looking search, radius, expands and expands out to the river that runs along the southern part of this city police, even and out multiple died teams to the river, but every single search they do turns up empty as time goes on without any arrest. The rumour mill in this little town starts working overtime, Everyone wants to know who's responsible and they're all bursting with theories either mark the grieving father and husband is getting some hard side. I

when the police said not as us back not assess, backed the gossip, Speculation is becoming so overwhelming that by November of two thousand and police have again come out in quickly say that they view mark as a victim in this whole situation, as you at that point one in town is left to wonder well, if not mark than who, so what about Glenn since he found the bodies. I have that he be somewhere in this mix up right, so LISA really talking about glance at this point no I'm sure he was interviewed. There may have been some speculation about him in the early days, but again going off newspapers at the time. No one really had like a ton of questions about him, so I wouldn't and he was looked into as the brother S, someone who found both of them, but he wasn't a key person of interests, at least in the public's perspective or in, These words saying that he was in the early days, according

the tv and Z, one news by the end of the year. The investigation is known as operation winter, and it is the biggest murder investigation in the history of Palmerston North with a team of forty officers spending. Thousands of ours and thousands of dollars trying to find the person who committed this heinous crime and then, on February, twenty There are two thousand one out of nowhere. Police drop a bomb shop. They announce that they arrested, Mark, Monday or the murderers of his wife and daughter. But I just ass. They were considering him a victim in all of this to us. He was out of town for business on the day they died right. I don't know if they worked spinning a different story for the public, if somewhere along the way, they changed their minds. But yes, so he has

always maintain, that he was out of town when this happened. There's no way he could have done it and wild we say that they can please him Tony, where he says he was away on business like no part of it work is actually do put him there. There s several hours of marks time that night that apparently are unaccounted for. Time that people leave mark used to drive back to his home so or his family and then drive back to establish an alibi. At the time of marks, arrest, police estimate, They ve got around ninety percent of the forensics analyzed and their expecting the rust back within two weeks, but without knowing just what those forensics are. Everyone is pretty much just left like jaw job like what the heck just happened. How on earth did police even get to mark when just a couple of months ago they were basically coming to his defence,

I mean your. I have all the questions about this to. First, what kind of forensics police even have that change their mind completely about mark the police. Don't give any specific like at this point, but the media does give out a little bit more detail that the public has heard before. Like we're or how I told you Amber and Christine had to be identified, forensically here so the tv and Z, one news. The injuries were so bad that police had to use their dental records to definitively idea that and that same article also mentions that law enforcement now believed the murder weapon was a tomahawk or a small acts which would fit right in what are they. But before about the weapon being heavy and sharp and possibly having handle yeah, but still at this point they can actually find the murder weapon. So police don't know for sure this is just a theory and police. Then found Christine's jewellery Box either or the clause

mark was allegedly wearing thin knight of the killings. So, while the obvious we feel like they have a strong enough case to move forward without these things because they arrested him. The police also turned to the public for help. Asking for any one who saw marks car that night or saw anything to come forward as sure you can imagine right from the very minute this hits. The news marks arrest is a media firestorm. All the public sympathy he had is legally erased, and that picture that I showed you, the one that has become so in some areas of him at the funeral is just. This rate. It I mean you name it. It's out there, the name calling the rage, the how dear he put on such an act. That marks Amber and Christine's memory literally pay any off to say about mark. It has been said. The backlash is vicious and it only gets worse as summer turns into winter.

In the southern hemisphere and as everyone waits to learn, if Mark Lundy will actually stand trial just after five months after his around, with the one year anniversary of the murders coming up deposition, in hearings for Mark start on July, fifteen, two thousand one. Now this isn't a deposition like we think of here in this state. Which is like you, you have these meetings before you go to trial. Rather, as I understand it is closer to what we might call like a grand jury hearing more like a pre trial hearing. According to the New Zealand Herald, the crown prosecution is basically gonna lay out their case in front of two justices of the peace they are, the ones who will make the decision about whether or not mark will actually go to like a real trial. No, it feels like all of New Zealand is on tender hopes were waiting to hear all the details, and once the crown prosecution starts laying out their case.

Everyone is just totally shocked by what they hear. This episode was made possible by fab fit sign, and this season there Spring Box is centred around the theme grow for supporting self care and self growth in the new season ahead. I love that sad. That fund lets. You custom pick the items in your box and whatever you decide to get trust me on this. One thing: get fuzzy pink slippers. If it's the last thing you do, I were those suckers day and night bear opened how they are so you they made me feel like the most like hampered, diva them. So much, and I love them because that bit bun knows what women

and because they are offering products by twenty female founded Brian's in this spring box. This sees it ordering or Spring Box today sign up now, so you can snack amazing products like the fuzzy slippers, when you customize use our promo code crying junkie for ten dollars off your first bucks, just go to W W w dot, fad, fit fun, dot com and don't forget to use the promo code crying junkie for ten dollars off your first box. The crown confirms their Christine died naked in her bed and that she was problem asleep when the attacks started and then woke up to just on him Annabelle tear. Again there's nothing about sexual assault. So I'm wondering if she just. Let me like it. That was part of it. For her or I mean again, we ve seen cases right where the person couldn't perform

were. I dont know what no one ever gave it a real explanation as to why she was naked if she wasn't sexually assaulted. As far as time of death, the I believe that Amber and Christine had an early night and went to bed around seven p m the headboard Christine's bed was covered in cuts and notches from whatever the murder weapon was suggesting. Even more blows in what struck her. According to murder pdf, the crown prosecution tells the court that Christine was hit at least nine or ten times ahead. With most of the blows only ending on her forehead and her face and one of the wounds, went eight centimetres deep at just over three in oh my God, Christine's hand, and for arms were also riddled with defensive. Who is she had cuts and bruises even fractures from lifting her? and trying to protect her face, and she was fighting.

And little amber suffered from at least seven blows believed to be from the same weapon According to another piece of New Zealand, Harold, based on how Amber his body was positioned in the doorway of her parents bedroom, it confirms what everyone kind of thinking, and even what polices theory was. Is that Amber was not the planned target baby I believe that she heard some kind of disturbance coming from her mom through came to check on her mom, and then to run away when she saw her mom being attacked only to be killed before she could even get into the hallway. Now A piece of new information is that the prosecution announces that the blood smear on that broken window. Actually, belongs to Christine Lundy. So it's not some unknown purposelike. They had

originally like theorized, it could have been so what this means to them is that it could have only got in there after she died. Who ever put that blood smear? There was the same person who killed her, So basically, what they're putting forward is this looks kind of stage like in their theory, to these two judges bear saying: ok, he smeared some blood broke the latch to make it look like someone broke in or left and This is where they also explained the jury box that no one could write like she didn't have super expensive jewellery. Nothing else was taken. Why take the jewelry box? Their theory is that mark took at and took the box to like stage. Robbery, so it s kind of like setting up for its right. Yes, ok, Obviously we know how they died, but is there any sort of time of death? That's ever been talked about yeah, so at the deposition itself- A lot of what the medical examiner said, the screening doktor Pang actually gets suppressed by the court, but the

does learn that Amber and Christine died sometime between seven and seven fifteen p m on August, twenty nine th and a lot of this again it's suppressed. But what you end up finding out is that a lot of this has to do with that Mcdonald's that they had virgin or that night that receipt that they had found as the deficit. Hearing, continues. More and more revelations about the forensic evidence. Police have against mark start coming to light. According to New Zealand, Harold, both Amber and Christine, had paint in their hair, and you know paint the base they looked similar to what mark used to paint the tools in his garage and to be clear and just reiterate. Based still have it actually found a weapon yeah as far as I can tell us, not like there's a missing acts, but they do have marks other painted tools to test chips again to see if there are men

so again for the first time. This is when the public is like getting a better look at some of the forensic evidence they having in smart. Why did we arrest him out of nowhere? But what we also get in this deposition for the first time is a glimpse at the rest of the prosecutions case, including a witness as TB envy, one news reported one of one: these neighbours. This woman Margaret Dance lives about five hundred m away from their house and she tells the court that on the night of the murders she was driving to choir practice at about seven hundred and fifty p dot m. When she saw something strange, she sees this blue car parked near her house now Margaret says she saw someone out jogging now this in itself is a weird at all, but according to Margaret, this jogger was a large man who was discussed used in a long blonde, curly, wig,

and she says he was wearing a track suit over top of a business suit and tie- and she said, this means runny. He looks afraid. He looks like he's running wave from something, so it's not like a guy on a jog it's a week, situation yeah and according to the prosecutions theory, so that car that she saw this man that she sees there are thinking that business his mark Lundy and he's running away from the crime scene to his car. To get back to his hotel Tony to establish his alibi. Here's like a little Thinking to note, though, so Margaret she so testifies that she's psychic was she's very careful to verify that she didn't use any of her psychic abilities to vague give her evidence that these are good, story to the police to basically that, like all me no powers, need that Kay, so is there anything to back up the siting like anybody else

this guy did they find no wig and marks possessions at all? No soon know when I saw this guy marked didn't, have a wig at least not one that they could find, but this is one of the things that police like continue to, search for now, when putting together time like this. Timely in this case is so important, so we know from Christine's phone records that she talked to mark at five thirty, at which point his cell phone pings do put him in her tone. So the crown saying that, basically, what happens is right after this call he like halls but home soon as it ends, and that's the only way that he could be the man that Margaret saw that night for their thing it is possible and one of the other things they bring up is, I guess, Mark would normally call Amber when he was on business trips like every night to say good night now here, this call it five thirty and then he doesn't called back any later,

bedtime like at any point in the evening, so Crown saying like hey, we are breaking routine, we ve got sightings like. If you were your hotel, why wouldn't you call her kind of way right? I mean but be fair. If Christine Dead, truly have an early night, maybe talk to Amber briefly, that five thirty call like know she's gonna go to bed soon, so totally possibility. But as far as I can tell it's, not something he or the defence ever claimed during the deposition So like this one, the things were it. There truly seems to be like a missing bedtime call or at least a breach from their normal routine as a double Can hearings continue another one of the public's biggest questions around his whole case? Finally, click. It might have an answer. It's that motive, peace, so ever and marks arrest. Everyone has been dying to know what could have not just lead least to him. We ve got the forensic evidence whatever, but what could it

made him do such a terrible thing. If he in fact did end, the answer is unfortunately so simple money you see at the time of Christine and Amber's debts. Mark Lundy, money. He owed a lot of money defined in a lot of money like TAT, million dollars a lot of money. Oh yeah bring to Anne Marie Maize reporting for Radio New Zealand Mark was already in debt when he agreed to spend that two million on some property to develop a vineyard, and on of the murderers? His phone records show a phone call from an associate in this vineyard operation. Who is calling him because credit we're starting to hound them like marks situation was dire and since Christine did the books for kitchen business like she knew every single detail about just how bad the situation was. So that's it.

Off two major early strain. Even the best relationship right, yeah and as the court here is during these depositions mark might have had a way to get into some quick catch as it turns out shortly before Christine Lundy was murdered. She and Mark increased their life insurance policies. Oh never, that's uh yeah according them, a pdf, their coverage went over twice the amount that they previously had, so their coverage went from too hundred five thousand dollars each two five hundred thousand dollars now yet, and we find out they trying to get up to one million dollars each but marks health issues like I guess he had pre diabetes, high cholesterol, that prevented them from during a higher limit, now, obviously two thousand dollars that's not going to get rid of his dead, but that is enough to at least ease the burden.

I at least for a little while later the creditors temporarily off your back by you some time, even without this money staff, more in Christine's relationship wasn't even the best one to begin with, as the crown prosecution tells the court he was being questioned by police during the early phases of the investigation mark actually told police that their marriage was happy and that they were very loving couple with shared interests. They like love, their local theatre, community and scout groups, blah blah blah, but Mark also admitted that the physical side of their relationship had all but dried up that they rarely had sex any more and that Christine was really more of a business partner. This spouse at this point We are learning all of this in the depositions, because Mark is kind of having. Explain why, on the night of the murders he hired a sex worker, oh yeah,

So, according to the New Zealand, Harold marked hold police that the sex workers arrived at his motel room after eleven p M and was picked up after one and he acknowledged the police that he's hired sex workers in the past when he's gone on other business trip. So recently, with a crown of things, like is one thing after another, I mean he's trying to use this as an alibi, but they're saying hey your alibi is proof that, like we don't think you of your wife, you had money problems, you guys were intimate anymore, you're, clearly sing another year, an alibi, basically just became your motive of exactly so. You can go back for a second

the commission is saying that Mark killed US family between seven and seven fifteen tat evening and there he was also back at his motel by eleven in time for the sex worker yeah exactly so. Basically, there saying that he set up alibis like on either and that he thought this is gonna, be unbreakable because he's calling them at five. I mean that's a long time for a drive that you can make. I dont know why the sex workers at eleven would necessarily be an alibi, but we know for sure he's back at his motel by eleven, so we got this superpower various financial situation we have infidelity. We have marks inconsistent statements that hemming Christine have this great marriage. None looks good right, but it also not enough to approve wine murder, let alone to and marching defence team points. To this end, they note that police apparently still have a list, Twenty sauce backs that they haven't eliminated yet mark is the one who's being arrested.

Wait till there that companies that Mark is there that ain't even cross, almost two dozen people like that seems young really I'd. I will never understand, as I'm a broadcaster obviously not a detective, but whether things I've heard over no far from detective that I've talked to is like you to close every door until there's one open. Otherwise they always say, like your fears that you get eviscerated when it goes to try like to their defence point here. How can you say it's him. Will you can't rule out any one else, but it's not up to the public. It's not up to the investigators at this point is up to the two justices of the peace. To look at the evidence decide and remember. There is still a ton of stuff. It's been rejected and suppressed, so There is a lot that they know that the public and the press dont know go to decide is

Mark Lundy going to be tried for murder. She's upset me Passport with Helen Bello, so within one week in February, when my best friends was an Arizona had her baby avian. My friend had her baby. My sister in law had her baby. So. I am rolling in the anti life right now, and I also know that all getting hit with parenting a newborn, and that is a huge adjustment and as an anti honorary or otherwise, When you make sure the families in my life have everything and anything they need to make their adjustments smooth and commitment.

Thing. That was a major game changer for me, when we adopted our daughter was diapers as in not ever running app and thanks to hello, Bella, diaper bundles, you never have to worry about that. Each bundle comes with seven packs of diapers, four packs of plantbased swipes and even a free, full sized product with your first order. Diapers are super high quality, super soft, absorbent and affordable, and you delivered right, your door, plus they come in twenty adorable prince that you to choose from and rotate all the time all babies deserve the best wishes. Simple idea. That hullabaloo is completely built around right now, if you go to hell about Come such crimes. Yankee you'll get twenty five percent off your diver bundle order. That is a huge paying for your back and a lot of potential words sing. It hello, balloon: dot com, such crimes, Yankee to start bundling with twenty five percent off your order, plus get fifteen percent off any add ons like vitamins or wipes. Don't forget that slow, Bello, Dotcom, slash, I'm drinking.

On July, nineteen, two thousand one after four days of hearings, the justices of the peace in Palmerston, North District court rule that mark. We will stand trial for the murder of his wife and daughter by the time. The trial starts in February two thousand to New Zealand. Fascination with this case is an absolute fever page and I feel, like the whole country is, hanging on every word: right away when the trial starts, the crown prosecution picks up right, where it left off at the depositions, and one of the people that they call at trial is barks own brother, Craig Lundy, Craig also questions. Why mark didn't call home that night to say goodnight Amber since, as Craig testifies, this was a normal saying that he always did as they probe even

deeper into marks possible motive. A fuller picture of the London finances starts to emerge, so we know from the Positions that mark was in some serious money trouble, but try all behind witness, after witness after witness, takes the stand and testifies, London were looking straight up. Bankruptcy mark was six months behind on his payments and as the news an Harold reported, the situation kept getting bleaker in bleaker as interest charges are raised, any headway that they made your eye, leave, as I felt when who's been even the smallest amount of credit card get knows it's like the interests that you can never get out from under. At one point they having to pay extra six hundred dollars a day,

in just straight interest payments- that's not even on the principle of it all. Like, oh, my god, that makes me so like so anxious just thinking about like I won't be able to sleep tonight, just imagining that happening to anybody or we throw up that'd, be horrible, yeah. You can kind of like feel this pressure that there was a bearing down on this family ya. Like we talk before about how money is literally, proven to be one of the biggest stress factors. India, any relation. But this is on another level, next level, Victoria. Yes, you can lino ethical look. What they're trying to pay is how desperate mark could have been, and one of the things that they talk about in trial is that, wortley before the murder, so on August, twenty eight. This is the day before me. I learned that he only had two days to come up with all his money that he owed making at five hundred thousand. Look better and better by the minute, but make use of it where he owes two million like five

two thousand is a drop in the bucket the. Where do you come up with two million right like again? If their theory is correct, I think The thinking is just like it's something it will buy me time, bandaid at least to figure out the rest. When Mark Lundy takes a stand, he continues strenuously deny having anything to do with the murders, while the ground keeps poking whole after hole in his alibi and as the trial continues public fascination doesn't decrease at all, because, finally, all of the gaps in this tragic story start getting filled in and the biggest one is really around the timeline of everything. So, according to the crown prosecution, every things started off totally normal. That day, Amber went to school. Christine went to work Christine phone records show and eight minute call to mark at about five thirty p m and again that is the all that we know he was at his hotel for also its art

public knowledge that they got Mcdonald's for dinner. That night remember, police found the receive is actually in their kitchen was time stamp for five. Forty three p m and we know that Amber and Christine got one chicken, but one fillet of fish, a nine peace, chicken, Mcnuggets, two orders of fries and to apple pie eyes. Then we know that at six fifty six p m Christine gets a phone call from a woman in her one club We know that she was alive and at home at six. Fifty six, but do you know What her mood was like on. The call like was anything worry summers concerning about the gall. So, according to the investigator episode about this case, the call is only seventeen seconds long and all they'll say about it is that Christine seems kind of testy now this, last time anyone heard from her and I

You have all the questions about this call. We do know that it was short, not super cheerful. So I kind of wonder if it's one of those I can't talk now. I ll just give you call tomorrow, essentially there like getting ready for bad stuff like that yeah, but the ones they do say. Police didn't find anything from that call to indicate that Christine thought that she was in any kind of danger at six, fifty six by seven the team. Now the crown says she is dead at that point, so a pretty small window of time, the medical examiner who perform the autopsies remember his aims. Doktor pang, he already took the stand during the deposition hearings, but he is called to testify in court and this time his testimony isn't suppress a we learn a lot more. He tells them Mary, how he used Amber and Christine's stomach contents to figure out their time of death. He says that, based on his findings of how full their stomachs

where and how the food didn't look like. It had been well digested at all and the fact that they didn't have what doktor pain calls a quote. Gastric smell, which I guess he's like a particularly vomit smell. You know he thinks that, because all of that that they had to have died not too long after they ate their meal, and you know, he's telling the court this he site and expert named Bernard night in his testimony to basically like back up his claims and basically like prove his point about how he got to this small window. As part of the defence, though marks legal team tries to cast some doubt on the time of day pointing to how the families home computer actually wasn't turned on until ten, fifty six, maybe ten, fifty two, depending on its source, you're reading the night of the murder. That's almost hours after, Amber and Christine were alleged to have die

this is at a time when the crown and the investigator everyone, no one's disagreeing about where Mark is at ten. Fifty two ten, fifty six, whatever we know he's like we know exactly where he is. We know he's back at his hotel yeah. No one is disputing that now to combat this, the prosecution calls at the head of the police's electronic crime laboratory, and this guy says that marked tampered with the computer that he was trying to form his own alibi and that he did something to make it look like the computer returned turned off later, when really happened closer to the time of the murders theirs alone. Ping pong going on about this computer savvy, because you know then marks teen gets up and they're saying. Listen. He would have no idea how to do this. I feel terrible computers notoriously bad. Like everyone knows this, have to really have an understanding of like computer files and how to manipulate them is just not possible so but

have his mark in his team, saying I'm bad, and then you have a forensic experts. Saying like this is what was done now. The other things that marks defence team really drives home. Is that really small time of death window? They think that its proof that he couldn't be the killer sense here, had to, like you said, he's he's making this drive to the house. He has to kill us family due to join the computer under his car drive back, and they have fifteen minutes to do this so to combat the crown calls a police officer to the stand who says that he actually tested how fast you can make the drive and he said yeah. You can t we do it. I could do even further. Stir if I was kind of like throwing caution to the wind and just like speeding, you know, he's kind of insinuating someone who's like trying to make an alibi and kill their family would have done during a murder, you you're not really caring about speed limits, but he gets up on the understands it's totally possible. Now we

learn some new stuff about the car in this trial. So we find out that the investigators believe that, like a chunk of gas, is missing from marks, car I know exactly how they got it. I had to do with mileage, and you know they know where he last opt for gas, but their staying visually. A ton of gas is missing and they look at that and they say how this is that you drove way more miles that night. Then you would have if you hadn't gone home in back now originally mark, Add that the gas stolen from his car that night, what yeah? I know it's like siphoning gas is a sum that happens in New Zealand a lot. It doesn't happen, a ton here anymore. I know it used to be a big thing, but also what are the odds? Someone steals your gas, the same night that family is murdered yeah, so they bring Is that not only to say that its fishy, but in court it sounds like.

Also saying, like he's specifically lied to us, though I wasn't it. Find anywhere where they like, prove beyond what you know reasonable doubt our standard here that it wasn't stolen. So we learn that that's what he told police during the investigation is weird story about a gang stolen, but at some point and this is why it looks so bad for him why they use it at trial. At some point he changes his story at trial. It's almost like he realizes how dumb it sounds. Like someone stole your gas again, the night, your family was murdered right, and so he kind of like abandons. It says it never happened. It's really muddy to me, like I don't know if he acknowledges that he lied. I don't know if he said he forgot back peddling at all is not a good look not at all, and I opened there ever is like a really good explanation. He comes up with of why there's just office gas missing. So as the public goes on to learn. There is is missing. Gasoline, but there's also missing high in mark side of things.

Waiting to be invested year. Episode March story is that he checks into this motel it like five pm. He says that he gets changed, has in our buys a roman coke than settles down to watching tv again. We know his phone records, put him at the hotel in that town at five thirty, when Christine calls, they have. This eight minute call five. There he ate, and the crown is alleging that once this is over, this is when he drives back home we. But what does phone records say about that? Exactly so There is this weird gap where Mark's phone is turned off from five thirty. Right when this call ends until he makes a call at eight twenty eight now, in that almost like three, our time span. Phone off completely unaccounted for to the forms of

or he just wasn't using it because there's a difference- and I agree honestly, neither one of them would ping. You know I agree so the court records say I'm going to quote it, for you quote a lack of cell phone reception through the relevant site inside the motel end quote. So not a hundred percent clear, but I'm taking the lack of reception as off off. Ok, now His part marked adamant that he was still in Paton and that, at some point between the end of the call Christine and like seven, he says he decides to like. Take a book go down to the beach and read, but No one can corroborate this story, and then he says Twenty eight, which is what is phone records, show that look. You know he is phone back on. Making a call. He says: yeah decide to make that call from my hotel room. He's, calling an associate. The associates name has been suppressed by the courts. I can't tell you much about them, but I can tell you that marks,

was about his other business venture right. That vineyard, which she's like in like a complete like massive debt over right right. There's a lot that mark can't answer for right. He can explain why he turns his phone for three hours. He can explain why he has gas missing, but the one he says he does have an answer for according to Paula Oliver's reporting and the New Zealand Harold, he says that call that's. It missing. The good I called to his daughter, he said yeah. We normally taught by that's when they call me so he's like normally call them so they don't call me that night to say good night. It's not we're that. I didn't call them here, but if you turn your phone often you aren't even like expecting a cop, that's true so We ve got a lot here, and you know it's all circumstantial up to this point even circumstantial or not. The crown was confident in their case, but they dont want to take any chances. So remember back in the day when they like arrested. Am I told you like ninety percent of the forensics we're like done come well by the day

where trial, all of the tests are done, and this is where we get the bombshell for the very first time, the crown now says that they ve got forensic evidence to link marked Lundy directly to the scene of the crime. Apparently is a tiny sample of both Amber and Christine Monday's dna taken from although shirt found in the back of marks, car ok by two Platos advocate MRS affair. Why and isn't he was wearing it just in the back of his car, where Amber could be sitting at any given time Christine could have just given him a hug me last time you were the shirt right they lived together. It wouldn't take that much for dna to be transferred to a shirt. I totally get that, and that is what marks defence team says as well. Accept we're, not talking about DNA from school.

Cells or like a strand of hair. That falls off according to Jessica. Pished goes wrong. Wording indeed magazine police found too. Any stains on Mark shirt, one on the chest. One on the left, sleeve subsequent testing showed the stain on marks. Sweet belonged Christine and it is tissue from her central nervous system, so somehow a scrap of Christine's brain matter or her spinal cord made its way onto marks should only guy. That's not something you get by hugging someone right and in it, fish in their saying that their dna they found from Amber is most likely from her blood. Ok, but a how on earth can a defence like even begin to address that it's bad right so marks the team, actually kind of brings up. Like the Arthur Allan Thomas scenario, I don't want to spoil anything for anyone who hasn't heard our episode about Harvey and JANET Crew yet, but what I can think

In that story, police were accused of planting evidence to get the outcome that they wanted and, according to the investigator remember, this has happened. The same country. That case was a pretty popular defence in New Zealand ever since, but in the end, of Mark Lundy. They never found, any evidence to say that the tissue was planted, so they kind of through this out there, as this like you know, sometimes happens, but we can't prove it happened here once the trial, and the jury spends seven hours deliberating before they return their verdict. And on Wednesday March Twentieth, two thousand to they find Mark Lundy guilty of murder Amber and Christine Monday and a day later, he sentence to life with a set, continue minimum period before he's eligible for parole. Now, on the surface, this whole time did? He seems over and done with now that justice has been done right, but

not everyone, is convinced and asked, years, go on after marks, convicted more more information starts coming to light things. No The ever heard before, including the jury who found Mark Lundy guilty of murder- and I promise everything that came out we'll make you think twice about everything we do today today it will also make you wonder if the wrong man might have been convicted of a horrendous crime. We're going to tell you the entire other side of this story and every that could very well point to marks innocence next week, last year in our fan club, in which case part too, is available right

if you are dying list two part to just head over to our website crime, junkie, podcast, dot, com, click on the fan club linked to join. You can also find the blog posts for this episode there, where you can find find all the pictures and source material that we talk about in today's case should follow us on Instagram. Add crime, Jerky podcast, we'll be back now two week with the rest of this story, but in the mean time stick around for profit of the month.

crime junkie is an audio chuck production. So what do you think Chuck do We saw so is a really really special story, but I gotta tell Ashley began. Is it a story I think affected. All of us are audio check, really really and really recently again guys, I'm so sorry. This is a sad story, but I thought really important to honor Lucy, the good girl whose mom Olivia is a member of the audio check team. So back in two thousand eighteen Olivia had just bought her first house and show that you are. I am ready to get a dog shit. An casually looking at her mom sent over a link from this website called canines for warriors and said Oliver, I found your

So Olivia goes to the website and learn more about the program which I had heard of, but I didn't really know what they did and all of you sent over this clip from the website that says it's from warriors is the nations largest provider of service dogs to military veterans, suffering from post, traumatic stress, traumatic, brain injury and or military sexual trauma. The programme is unique, comprehensive and proven thing to research by Produce University College of Veterinary medicine. We provide each one with a service, canine equipment, training, sort of haitian seminars, legal instructions that care housing, home, cooked meals, unconditional love and listening and alive, the time of wraparound services is in essence. We don't just give are warriors service, thought we give them the canines family and this is one hundred percent free program for vegetables, literally

my notes. I said Q waterworks right now, yeah. I wish she actually sent me a link to this earlier. I was like how did I not know about this. This is beautiful. It's an amazing program, I'm so excited to get involved. Learn more about it. I'm obsessed, but I this link from homologies, like not a veteran get a dog from these people mom. I can't take a dog from a warrior. Are you kidding me and then she was reading more about it and their dogs? You don't make it in the programme specifically a dog that was at that point time named Zelda. She had been in the training programme for a couple of months, but she was deemed unsaid because she to attach to an antler bone units, and she couldn't continue to training. So now the programme was looking to get good home with a civilian olivias.

An email to the organization asking about available dogs, and she got out citing in like a little S like hey, Zella does adorable, but deciding against it and my report, is when they responded they're like actually, we have a dog that we think is perfect for you have you looked at Zelda a meant to be yes, but the only we pick up was Zelda was in South Florida and Olivia was all the way up here in the Nablus, but Mom literally left the nails land where she was in Florida to meet so that all of you the opt out drove all through the night, with Zelda from Florida too, in Vienna, up to Olivias, New House and got their around midnight and as soon as Zelda hopped out of the car, she was officially renamed Lucy, but she came right up to Olivia, who is sitting in the driveway and put her head right on her shoulder and all of you said. From that moment on. She was a bell. Pro path

She actually describe Lucy as one of those stuffed animals with the bulk of arms and legs that we had his kids that you just like put around your neck and walk around with, like you're doing all Lincoln and accurate. What's coming, but I did say that this was a sad story and after elevate that Lucy, she had a little bump on rules that kind of came in one. And Olivia always gotta treated treated and He never really seem to be any paying or discovered by. This has November that suggested getting some dental work and x rays of the area and by dental work I mean like they took out six tee and at their at this point He was only three years. All batches young doesn't mean that ever happened to a dog at such a young age and the other do you wanna buy attics to treat the area, but nothing really seems to work. Lucy had developed an incredibly pervasive and mysterious back early in action that had been spreading rapidly for months, and it actually eroded a lot of the bone and muscle tissue from the left side of her face.

Olivia took we see to multiple different specialists and her party, if it is continuing to deteriorate and Bolivia came to accept. That the good Bye was going to be very soon and Lucy Cost Rainbow Bridge I in February two thousand and twenty one. Whereas we say here are your truck Lucy had to move out, guess Lucy moved out on February, even though this feels so inexplicable, talking to levy about this. She feel that she really has a special piece about her time with Lucy and cheese someone who is an assault, survivor herself losing Lucy Bolivia realise that she learned so much from Lucy in their short time together and even though this service dog drop out, didn't make it as an official sir, a stag? She

saw Olivia through some of her darkest times and her training. Those right in specializing in helping those with PTSD. We saved Bolivia and he's become stronger person in a more whole person in the past two years, all because of Lucy, and she also as device the huge passion for service dogs and hosted start training won her self soon there for me and I think this is really really beautiful. Olivia told me something a friend said about. We see that she was a circular she came in so bright and passionate, bringing some. Its joy and love to anyone. Everyone both like start glare. She Just wasn't meant to shine. Forlorn hope miss. It isn't fair but she made so many friends and alive. Gave her. The best life Lucy fought hard, and loved, so much harder.

That's Olivia hopes. Lucy will always be remembered for You guys know we always do segments promoting organisations. I dont think I need to tell you, but we are supporting canines for warriors today. I am obsessed with his organisation. They obviously changed these life chained. To live your life. I think they changed my life. Now, honestly, I encourage everyone to check other website. It is canine Four warriors dot, Org and again, like leave you. Thank you so much for letting us tell Lucy the story. It's a really really truly beauty one year we we had audio Chuck. Obviously we're we're local Indianapolis, so we sponsored a kennel for a year for a dog at the India, Humane society in Lucy's name, and I am sure no one knows as unless you are trotted out, but one of the benefits we have at work is that, on your work anniversary, we give you a certain amount of money on behalf of audio chuckle, donate to any any non profit of their choice.

Again, we are obviously very big and advocacy work related. Crimes base a lot of what we do is related to space that we work in. But it's also really important has that people feel like they are making indifferent in areas that are really important to them. Whether or not the causes that they support are also supported by us, the air and- Oh Olivia, actually just got, whereas instead as she wants her donation this year to be made to that organisation. So later on, this or on her work in our history will be making a big donation to canine for warriors, I love what they're doing. I think it is so special, so, even if you can't donate, if you can check them out, if you're in south forty one a volunteer or you're looking for a dog who may be just didn't cut it, I know we have a lot of listeners who are veterans themselves, again had no idea. This organisation is out there and I think, they're doing something really special, really really special state farm agents are the real deal

helping you to customize your insurance for more of what you need and less of what you don't solving called case. That's the real deal the real deal in home in car insurance, like a good neighbour state farm, is there.