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Our eye crime junkies. I heard you and I'm finally covering the local Indianapolis serial killer. Her bow Meister. This has been request: that over and over and over so let's just do it and a cool no as I was like researching this case, I've always known about this case at a very high level of for whatever reason I always thought that it took place and, like the seventies, it didn't know it took place in like these. I mean really when everything blew up was like the late. Ninety really, I remember, lives like because that would make good contemporary task to a certain extent yeah, which I don't know why. But it Seabury and for some reason it makes a way more interesting for some reason to me. So I'm into it. Let's do it yeah, though I'm gonna start story in nineteen. Ninety three there was a thirty. Two year old man named Roger who goes out to an Indianapolis, gave our one night and never returned home His mother is immediately concerned the next morning.

He doesn't arrive home by more interesting for thirty, and she just has a knowing that something is wrong. She says the first day She did was call his friend Rick just ass. I note like I was watching this on a documentary and the moms talking about the friend, Rick and cut to Rick is TAT was partner, so mom straighten denial, but ok, cool ha. The document is like in the nineties, so you know has come a long way since then we like to think so partners. Seventeen years Rick said that he knew Rogers friends, he knew he hung out after he exhausted all of those leads and still couldn't find him. He basically started. Crazy calling tree where everyone in the community was calling around asking. If anyone had seen him ask you if they savings suspicious asking if they saw him out the club that night, but after forty eight hours of not hearing

anything from him and not having a saving of him. His mother goes to report him missing, but apparently in nineteen. Ninety three there is crazy rule that there was a thirty day, waiting period before police could do an investigation into a missing person case. Thirty days, thirty, like a twenty four forty our thing, but I've never heard of thirty days. I had never heard this either. So I didn't know if this is maybe like an adult thing or, if I may, It was early nineties. Maybe people on the gay community work getting the kind of attention. I have no idea, but I was shocked, but basically they said they want to make sure they just didn't show back up, sir your mom and his friends, lush partner, Rick or like forget this, like work, were doing this ourselves. And they go and hire a p. I he's a retired office earning Virgil, who is on the case full Colombo style. He starts asking around pudding feelers out.

A few days and his investigation. He gets a really worrisome call and Their family wants to hire him and they too have a gay son who went missing after he was last to have gone out to a gave. Our Indianapolis and the similarities don't end there. This missing man's name is Alan and he's about the same high same way as Roger they both have similar jobs, neither one had a cell phone or credit cards that they could track down. So the only thing Virgil could do with hit the streets and talk to people. He made a flyers for with men and have a team that would go out when the clubs were crowded and talk to the usual there, and we really there. Legwork pays off because they start getting tips that the night Roger was out. He was seen getting into a car with a man in the front of the library, downtown the only details taking from these witnesses was that the car was blue. And it had in Ohio license plate. They are,

the went down a little bit of a rabbit hold this point, because they got a tape that there was this male press two. She rang being run out of a downtown business in the Annapolis Roger might have been involved with it. So the in theatre. Has his team spend a ton of time staking this place out, but absolutely nothing comes of it. So is a little bit of time wasted. They eventually go back to staking out the clubs looking for this blue car with no higher license plate, since they felt that it was really the best leave it there. To go off of weeks. Go by no one spots, this car, so police, start to think that maybe this was a bogus Tipp as well, then Another Tipp comes in that makes Virgil really concerned a pub the sheriff forgave magazine calls Virgil and says I just want you to be aware that the two guys you're looking for are not the only ones Deep in getting reports of a number of gay men going missing an indian apple S, and I dont know how this problem

sure knew this might only thought is that per I was families were having trouble, getting law enforcement to take these cases seriously and the media yeah and maybe they are trying to like it articles published in magazines that they thought would be circulated in the community's at their sons were tied to. I have no idea, but that's what I can assume This is when Virgil get his first inclination that he might be dealing with a serial killer at this point, that ready they mark has finally hit on Rogers case and police were going to look into his disappearance and take it seriously. What I m P hadn't, told Virgil, but vote has heard rumors of through that magazine, publisher, was that their words act. A number of gay men who had vanished into thin air and Indianapolis to be exact. There were a eight and over two years that police believe could have been connected. That's so many as Rogers family thou be infuriating

His case should be taken so much more seriously. Yeah that I mean you if you would think that they would have connected them and realise that Roger probably just run off. If there's this pattern and police even had a suspect for these. Apparently there was a man who they were able to link to three the missing man and all three had a relationship with him at some point, but this guy action, being super cooperative and he submitted to a voluntary, of his home and even let the police. Cadaver dogs through his property and couldn't find yeah. They couldn't find anything to Lincoln to the missing man, so they eventually had to let that lead, die and police at this. They have nothing to go on. There simply waiting for one of these guys either show back up or for another man to go missing and maybe leave some more clues. While thank God at this point while they're just sitting in waiting a mandate

tony calls into police with a crazy story, and it totally gives them the first credible lead that they ve had in a long time so here's the story that Tony tells them he's out at once bars that night the missing man had frequented and he meets a white male and his forties there. They along. They have a couple of drinks, and this I who says his name- is Brian Smart. Invite him back to his. Is for some more drinks and to go for a swim and Tony agrees. So they get Skies car drive and drive and drive, and he realizes he's giving him way north out of downtown to what he calls a mansion. And when they get to the House Brian First Tonia cocktail, which he refuses and Brian seems fostered by that he excused himself for a couple of minutes and we comes back he's looser he's chatty, so Tony things that may be? He went to the bathroom into drugs or something Brian leads,

tony to this indoor lap poor that he has for a dip, but the poor room was straight up the creepy as thing like, I could ever imagine we're. Ok, if a man take you home and he takes you to his poor, what is the creepy as thing that could be in this poolroom? That would just give you that the GPS from head to toe. I know what's in theirs, I can't say you already know: ok fell at all the listeners had a chance to guess the creepy as thing surrounding the entire pool Our rest up and closed and Brion said, He gets lonely there and he likes to stage these mannequin like he's having a party- and these are his friends, you imagine, locking, like us, misleading I imagine it like a like a hotels pool when it's closed. You knows it's kind of dark, but there's lights, the poor,

oh yeah nominating over mad human and smells like chlorine, and you to see this hardy. Literally, of manner. Cabins and you can see like the water and make them it I'd, really balls and like a full body, gels, so Tony think are running at this point, and this is my crime. Junkie, life rule number five, my god If someone is creeping? U that s out, it is ok to be rude. I dont know why people don't trust their senses. This guy is home alone in a mansion with man, friends and that heard, and it's ok to tell the sky that he's being weird like side. No, I'm gonna go off on its hands. Effort is the second. I was reading a story just yesterday on Facebook, Bout, how girl at a local mire here in Indiana ways. Having followed around like this guy, I read that two yeah and she

like in the store and he's falling hurry. He's asking her all the questions that we know. People asked when they're like going to take some one like your family Someone be waiting for you and she says that she checking out and he's following her and he only violated by the gum or something yeah just by this the garments she's like trying act with her car doesn't work and those shoes walking out to her car and she, the guy, still found and her she's gettin freaked out too. She like goes, she sees a guy get out of his country's like TAT. I haven't seen you in so long. You should write this message on her phone, like this guy's falling pretend I know you and this please along, but I like could you she said something like. I think I've been trying to get a hold of you. I think I have the wrong number. Can you check and chosen this vote, which honestly brilliance knowing but but why? Why go through the whole charade it this guy is being a weirdo just like college. That he's being weird out these found. You go straight to security or tell this guy, you know he's following you: you're not gonna fall for this shit. I don't know

everyone, is so afraid of being rude because honestly, worst case scenario like this guy is totally normal and your keys just gonna think you're a weirdo whose rude but light you'll, never see him again. Yoda yet be aware, I'll be rude stay alive. Who cares what this guy thinks? I mean if you really, I don't why people dont trust our centres? I don't know why. This guy saw these munitions around the poor and played a cool. I'm gonna take a deep breath GSM worked up right now, but that's my All the mannequin thing is like one of the previous things I gotta get over. It be weird He rode stay alive, so this guy is politeness and, as a result, he is about to almost straight of die. Tony is swimming, and while he swimming brine asked him, if he's ever tried to be choked during sex, you tell, I'm not really heightens every thing. It's unlike anything you ve ever experience and he asked him if he wants to try it.

We, a man who has mannequin friends once to choke you, that's totally normal. I get it. Ok. Got well. Tony things are totally normal to he'll. Try anything once I guess, because he agrees he lets Brian RAP. A pool hose around his neck and Brian begins to pull and Tony says that there is this moment when he realizes Brian's pulling tighter, tighter and in his mind he says: oh crap, this guy isn't gonna stop. He is going to kill me so, instead of fighting, what Tony does is he pretends to pass out and Brian, let's at but when Tony opens his eyes he says that Brian looks totally shocked and he tried to play it off like oh, yet that's exactly how it wants to go. Antonia eventually gets out of the home alive and well, but you

sure that whatever was happening to the men and Indianapolis, this guy had something to do with it. But police are fearful that Brian isn't done with Tony, because Brian actually keeps reaching out to Tony afterwards. He calls him even shows up at his house, so the afraid that he's like thinking that Tony is a loose end, but for as much as ten learned about brine, smart. He really knew nothing. Police knew that this guy was using a fake name because they couldn't find anything on him and what when he remembers that they drove north and he saw a sign with the word farms on it. He didn't remember anything else. He said that the house had a like really long, curvy driveway, but he couldn't remember specific directions. Remember what road they were on, so police convinced Tony to act as bait for them, since Ryan is reaching out to him and obviously wants to get back together with him, whether its to kill him or be them or whatever they say.

We're gonna, have you meet up with him and then go to his house? So we can follow you. Set up a meeting time, but Brian either got really lucky or he knew the police were onto him because he didn't show up. So police are extra costs and that this guy might be there man, so they take what they have to the drawing board. Man named Brian long Curvy, driveway, somewhere north of Indianapolis, in a sign out from the mansion. That's has farms on it Also Tony reconfirmed the Tipp that police had gone earlier that the car he was an did, have Ohio license plates police really Honan on the Ohio police and they actually reach out two detectives there, and wouldn't you no way they have in two, at least in Ohio, tell them that what their experiences has been going on in Ohio since the mid eighties. In eighty five, eighty six Ie, nine and ninety they were fighting bodies of

mingled men of ice? Seventy, which runs EAST ass from Indiana two Ohio. They had traced all of these men to the gate, immunity and Indianapolis and found out that all of them were last seen there. The police are com that this is the same guy. But why change m. O is wiser dumping bodies in it stay away and then just stop and was he dumping them somewhere else will or why aren't they showing up is keeping them alive? Everyone closely investigation believed that the guy's confidence was growing. He wasn't getting caught, so he was comfortable getting rid of these men closer and closer to home wherever that might be, and this was concerning because he's getting more comfortable, the murders were getting closer and closer together, he's clean. They getting better at what he's doing, because police training and find the bodies now right and heat.

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And fifty times faster. Good is simply safe. Dot com, slash cranky. After they talk to police in Ohio, they decide to have a meeting with the police from the northern districts in Indiana. They explain what little info they have and ask We won. Do you know of a property that has this winding driveway? That leads to a big house with an indoor poor and would be called something farms and sure enough police and Hamilton County recognise this as a home off of a hundred and fifty six rate, not not a couple of home like the on how yeah yeah it's hundred fifty six. He is in a suburb off of Indianapolis called Westerfield they sent in. Stu gaiters to do a drive by basely check this place out and they come across. His estate called Fox Hallo farms and it matches Tony's description to tea. They fly.

Get that the home doesn't belong to. Anyone named Brian, it's the home of her bow and Julie, Bow Meister and their three children. Indy police are ready to turn this place upside down and look for anything that will connect this house to their missing man, but the home isn't located in their jurisdiction and when they go to Hamilton County judge, the judge won't sign. On any search warrant based on one quote: unreliable, witness and they say heard- is an upstanding businessman in their community and they won't infringe on his rights based on a rumour, so no help from them about the same time. There's a man in one of these gay clubs that sees a suspect exactly like the police has have described getting into a car with Ohio license plate and he actually takes down the license plate number and when he gives that to police sure enough, the car is registered to her. They even show a picture of her to the guy

HU we almost killed and Tony says yeah. It's definitely close. Matched to the guy went home with that night and they take both of this two Hamilton County in him. Can we still won't approve a search warrant at this point? All they can do is learn about her and keep an eye on him and they really dig into is backstory find out. Who is now who he was, and this is what they learn about him. He came from a pretty well to do. Family in Indianapolis is dad, wasn't anesthesiologists and heard was one of four. Heads early on in his life. He displayed some disturbing and unusual signs, for example, the Department of Psychology, it Radford University, Study, Herbie Life and found that in adolescence he used to ponder what it was like to taste human urine and he would pull unusual pranks like he found his dead bird once and he would place on a teachers desk. Just like see her

reaction and according to this research, his father knew that something wasn't right with him and he would take him to get these like secret tests done and very few results remain from what they found, but it appears that he was diagnosed with schizophrenia and the possibility of multiple personalities but there wasn't any more documentation outside of this, so he's dead. More than likely knew that there was something wrong with him and didn't attempt to get him help from everything we can see. Yes, like he took to get these tests, but there was no follow up done. He didn't have him like get treated, he wasn't it. Europe be so unless heating did- and it wasn't documented, then likely no and really likely. He wasn't didn't get help because he went on and do these horrible think right road

so he grew up is kind of a loner and when he graduated he went to I you spent like one semester. Their dropped out tried working. He eventually went back to you in the fall of nineteen sixty seven. There he met a woman named Julia. Julia was quoted as saying he was nice funding, be with good looking. We both liked cars and we're both young Publicans and that stating it lightly beer both like mad conservatives and they actually stated. This is one of the things that brought them together and they got married and nineteen seventy one and into buying house together an indian apple ass. We know dad saw some crazy tendencies or something but Julie didn't from all. Her interviews is no, she didn't see any signs of schizophrenia or the mortal personality. She said that they even did everything together to so it's not like they were apart. She said like when they were doing yard, where he was going. She was trimming, they were together all the time she see anything. But I think there were little signs that you know looking back on

You want to point out that maybe, in the time just seemed like weird heard dirt the early years of their marriage, Julie, TOT English, and he began cloaking at the State Bureau of Motor vehicles and he will end up working as waved supervisor. So he had to be able to function pretty normally, but during his time their people remember him doing some strange stuff. For example, one time he was upset with his boss, so he peed on his desk and another time a cork or said that she caught her. He had actually been keeping a cat, in like his bottom desk drawer and not to eat it like our snack on, but he would open it up every day and look at it because he wanted to watch it deteriorate. So Are you familiar with the Mcdonald Triad? Now? Ok, so I was going miss up when you brought up his dad noticing thing Similar Donald Triad. I dont know tenable history of it, but it's basically three things: Those that you can see in early childhood,

may be dictators of a child to having some personality or emotional difficulties in the future can guess what their cruelty to animals setting fires. Not forgetting the triad, but possibly I don't know so. There's bed wedding, crawled, animals, and I think it is setting Firefox, but here add tendencies to want to drink people's Europe, which reminds me of bad wedding and the he too had a dead bird, but he found other dusk. What's the likelihood that bird was already dead when he found it. So two out of three plus you peed on a desk as an adult and wide watch something decay at his workplace. Those a pretty big indicators, the triad to me right. So he again he had these signs and his dad was seeing these signs and his co workers. Even

like seeing some of this at work. They said I work, he was actually a perfectionist given to like sudden unprovoked rages in all of this stuff. Again in hindsight, is creepy eight f, but I can imagine at the time Herbie just like the coworkers everyone has who your leg just heard re easy hermits that one crazy guy we're goin like him, but we were by other he's benign whatever her just looking at his Kagan. The drawer, like he's gonna, be like at that. I fear that I worked at people who were like we urge the closest Julie ever got to recognising something was truly wrong. Was in the early seventies, her became so depressed that his father actually had been committed for over a month to a psyche, took hospital Julie didn't dispute the decision, she said that he was quote hurting and needing help. So again there saying it's just too

I share, and I dont know if it was something else and again it was his father that having committed so iron of his father may be sauce and stuff that, like he saw a dreadful, but didn't share it with Julie, but he gets out, and it seems that this was his only hospitalization ass as an adult Julian Herve go on to have three kids and they open a chain of thrift stores in Indianapolis that end up doing pretty well. To begin with, and he and his family by this one million dollar estate called Fox hollow farms. Something police note is that at the time they purchase is fifteen acres. State bodies stop showing up in Ohio. Was he just dumping bodies in Ohio, and now he has a place for them right, so something what their thinking is that like before they had a small house, they didn't have a ton of land. So if he were to kill somebody, he can't do in the front yard you dont want to bury them on. Public property is likely to be found, so they think he was taking them to Ohio, but once he had this fifteen acres state

now he doesn't have to leave his own home. He can bury them on property that no, else can set foot on without permission. This episode is made possible by audible long before podcast I relied on audible exclusively for entertainment. I've been a member since two thousand and seven and I still look forward to my credit every single month, because, with my credit, I get all your books. I get exclusive podcast and the best part is, if I don't like it or couldn't get into the narrator, you can exchange or credit to find something that you really love and the most recent audio book that I use. My credit for and really loved is one that you

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calm, slash crime, junkie or crime junkie. All one word: you can text that two five hundred five hundred so at this point police know his house is a dead ringer for Tony story. They know Europe is still a little bit off, but they don't have. Any thing solid and they know to give evidence they need to get onto this property. They make an attempt to confront her face to face at one of his thrift stores and he denies any involvement. He refuses let them searches home, but police, say that while there talking to him, they can just see the vein in his neck, like pulsing out of his body he and lays getting worked up. They know he's lying. So without his coat, Maurice in their investor. Nation is at a standstill. So three months passed before they learn that Julian Herve are getting a divorce and Herbert moved out of the home is just occupied by Julie and there, like bingo Julie, is our in and there

hoping that if they tell Julie that her business suspect- because at this point she saw no idea she and her will be on bad terms, and maybe she will cooperate with them because of that so police gotta foxhole farms confront Juliet the door telling her that they were investigating her husband for quote homeless. Fuel homicide that seems pretty thick as a real thing, Julius Design vacation. She was like what is homosexual humps, and I dont know if this is again just them being like ignorant in the time they would say they were searching for these guys in coats, gay, Indianapolis or event this them. Attempting to like the kind of like side, I wink wink let her in on the fact that her husband was probably gay without saying it, because again at this point, they can prove that he had sex with any of them. So I Julie, says I dont, know that is in

They go on to explain to her this bees, rash of disappearances of gay men and Indianapolis, along with bodies found in Ohio, she's like no getting it words, but I don't hate man enough to help you say the murderer. Peace shut the door on your face, plus jewel, has no clue that her husband might even be gang. Remember they fell in love because there were conservative. So I'm sure. In her mind, she's, like you, got the wrong guy, there's no way like she can't even like fathom that he would be going to a gay club, much less, bringing back these men and then murdering them at their home but when they leave Julie. Obviously this stays with her. She can't stop thinking about, is she remembers something strange that happened several months earlier. Her son had come in for playing outside and he tells her that he found a skull and little boys early like so. She goes out to check and sure enough. There is actually a cluster of bones and when hurt gets home, she tells him about it. And he's like oh gathered,

My dad's anatomy skeleton because my dad's doctor and totally normal, never discuss again heard: cleaned up the bones and jewels. Never saw that they never spoke. A totally normal yeah Julie calls her attorney and she tells him about this visit from police and she tells him this crazy story about the bones. But she's, like don't say anything to anyone like this is just between you and me derision Julie come on. I know I would be all about winning a native worse, and this seems like a major trump card to play, but while Julius twiddling her thumbs and try and convince herself at her husband, isn't a serial killer police get the idea to do and infrared search of property, You don't need a search warrant to fly over, and so they get a team. Together with these special equipment that can detect body, don't be a little bit late for body heat to be detected if we're looking at actual piles of bones, as opposed to

like even decomposing bodies, yeah and that's what they find out. If there are bodies anywhere on this property, they ve been dead too long to show anything on these cameras. So it is another bust forlorn. For While this is all going down, the divorce between Julian her gets even more contemptuous and she starts fearing for her children and her lawyer says he even fears for Julie's life and the final straw is when her took their sign on a lake trip and refuse to bring him back home. So Julie's like our eye, can't be in denial any longer when it comes to the safety of my kids and myself. So in June of ninety ninety six, she allows police to come on their property while her by the way- and she shows them where her son had found the original skeleton. But when police dig up the area, there's nothing there and they and upsetting Julie down, and they try to take her through their theory and their investigation and as their walking her through this and talk,

about when all these men have gone missing. Julie compares those dates to her calendar. Every time a man went missing an Indianapolis. She in the kids were out of town to this lake that they would always go to so they would go for like a weekend or sometimes for awful. Weak in the summer, and she said that her, but always stay behind, because he needs to tend to business and she never without twice about it. But now it was becoming clear to her that he was staying home for us reasons I was going to ask how she had no idea that this was going on if it's happening in her house, but if she was out of town right, how could she there was this lake that they would go to like an hour and a half away and she would go the kids all the time like just forget,

over the weekend. We're gonna go the lake, we're gonna go for a week and her being the family man and, like the guy in charge of these three thrift stores now like he has to stay home, attend to the business. He can't be gone for a week and with this link, police are even more sure that they have their guy and they start digging up the rest of the pro he withdrew his permission when they start digging around. On the rest, the property bones start popping up like wacko there s beware and the police collect eleven bodies in total then eleven and in his like there was this passing note that they were like Levin bodies and no schools were found and then like excuse me, no schools were found. What, You can just be like there were no heads and keep going I know we need to pause for a second and talk about the fact that there were no heads, I know, but in art like at some,

there had been at least one head right, because that's what his son found. I dont know how budget this is. I've seen it a couple of times, but where are the heads because they do have to identify the got them they found the ones they were able to identify, there's still a handful that they haven't. They were identified. Through DNA. So not dental records, diabetes, F, where these heads, oh my god, the police, have eleven male bodies on this guy's property they finally go back to Hamilton County. Would never give them a search warrant and there, like? Ok, found this on our own. We did at our own way, we got permission and we were proved right now. We need to arrest the sky and Hamilton counties like like I know, you found the bodies on his property to can't prove that he killed them. What's right so s, this noise, Indian, in apples. Police are getting nowhere Herbert not coming home. So their prey sure he's gotten winded. The investigation is on the run and

they go to a higher police in Ohio police, decide that they're gonna pick up the investigation, since they have bodies in their own territory. Julie had already confirmed with them that he had business. Indeed in Ohio and all of his business. Trips coincided with bodies being found in Ohio and that is all Ohio He did so they get a warrant for Europe's car and toe it to Ohio and processing during this time that they're doing that police here An indian apple is here that heard is in northern Michigan near the canadian border and he's been asking his brother to wire him money, but they can't pinpoint him Ohio. Police are still processing. The car They realise that the trunk liner has been totally removed and the only thing making get. Is this he spot a blood? That's two tiny to even process, so even Ohio hits a dead end keep in mind with all of this Hamilton county. Still isn't even interested in the sky. They're not

For I know I don't know what more they need. They were so afraid of throwing one of their air quote, getting citizens under the buys that I don't think I'll ever figure with their deal was like I'm, not or why they were so opposed to going after him. I don't know his father had connections. Are he had connections? Who knows but bodies in Europe? Please don't go after him. Side. No, I did find this crazy. Clip on mine were her. Had it been interviewed by the local news about how He was driving a car with his son and he saw a government vehicle that was painting the roadways like the stripes on the road. This vehicle hits a raccoon unlike paints over him. It just keeps deriving an he acts like he's just totally appalled at their carelessness for the life,

This rock in Parma saw it all. I said to my son, they're gonna. Get their work in this way can ensure an ambiguous right right over space with no other way to have never per ride with me. So I took a shot, a raccoon, which met its demise on the yellow line. Came one with the pain cool it has since been removed. This is all that's left This was just eat. Our finnish charge, vine growing branches career by state officials. There was no excuse without birthing. So just what is the explanation so bracken is a big deal. Meanwhile, this is. In the midst of his serial killer rampage where he's killing actual humans humans. Stowing them on his part in an honest property. Yes opposed the full video on our websites, you can see the sky, but

I assume this is the guy that Hamilton County was seeing and worth was struggling to arrest goes there like. He feels bad for a raccoon I don't know how he could kill a human, a little Weird note too. The first thing he did when they run over this raccoon is he gets his Polaroid camera. And goes out and take takes a mature does like multiple pictures of it. So he see play off like oh, I wanted to show in Ukraine are here, and I wanted to show you what they did. But me Maybe just maybe like young heard was a scrap book. This in, like some weird murder, scrapbook right, framing can party, eventually. Police don't end of even needing Hamilton carries Help Hamilton, never helps them, but they get a call that on July, fourth, nineteen. Ninety six, her had power just car in the side of the road and shot himself in the forehead, he left behind a three. Suicide, no kind of just ramble

in Gibraltar, is talking about. He was sorry for his feeling business and how that contributed to his marital problems, nothing in the know about these murders, or this apparently secret life that he lived and in total, there were twenty one men between Ohio in Indiana attributed to him. Who knows possibly more if he ever found another dumping ground I mean I don't know where are these heads. Are there more bodies with these heads family have no closure on whether or not their dad was a serial killer. Gatt suit! That's to me, like the craziest part, I can't imagine being the daughter of her or the wife of or the son of her, because they literally get bombarded by these police. They think they're dad's is totally normal, dad police come say your dad, the serial killer. They dig up, all these bodies in on the property of the house that you ve been living in and then your dad kills. And then your guy killed him. You don't even get the chance to sit down with your dad faced,

yes and asking these questions and yeah I mean he did it like, the bodies are on his house. The cases are close police. No, it's him, but visit bug leave a huge open wound. If I were his family I could never closed without him yeah I can't imagine, and based on the time period. His kids are probably around our aid trade like yeah little bit old Eric I can't imagine like being where I am today like even remotely my age and living with this idea that maybe he was maybe you There is no like complete closure, or even me Yeah, like you said even sitting down being like did this happen, be honest with me, I'm here yeah like how. Why are you like this? Like, I didn't even know your game. To be able to confront that yeah yeah, and was it really like was at all you? Were you this crazy psychopath? Or do you have these, but personalities in one of you is a wonderful family man, and one of you is this gay cereal

or, like I just say so many questions they actually went onto and moving out of Fox hell of farms and it went on to be rented and then sold, and they say that its haunted- and there has been a couple of paranormal- shows that have gone out there and said there has been sightings goes on the property, but it's like a pretty big, well known property with anyone was, I don't know who owns it now, but people definitely do like Dr. By still it's gotta be. We are to live there like knowing everything that went down so crime junkie, question, which you pay less or more for the property, knowing what but there I hate to say it, but I think more, we question: does it come with or without the man again, pine junkies,

We need your help. We got a lot of great feedback from our profit of the weak segment last week, but we also got a people who said it didn't die with the crimes of our show. So we need your help. Please go to Facebook, and search for cryin, junkie, podcast, discussion, group joining grew and take the poor, letting us know if we should keep a puppet of the week, maybe just make profit of the monk or squash segment altogether or trying make a show that you really want to listen to what we need your help to do that Let us know what you think and we will see you junkies next week. Crime junkie is Britain and hosted by me all of our sound production and editing comes from brick play watt and crime. Junkie is an audio chuck production. So what do you think.