This episode picks up where Episode 167 left off. We suggest you listen to them in order. When Aaron Quinn called the Vallejo police to report that his girlfriend Denise Huskins had been kidnapped, and went into the station for questioning, a detective told Aaron that he didn't believe him. When Denise was released after being held captive for about 48 hours, police didn't believe her either. It soon became clear that the police viewed Denise and Aaron as suspects, not victims.
Denise Huskins and Aaron Quinn’s book is Victim F.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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last episode episode one sixty seven, it's called forty eight hours. If you haven't listen to that when yet you may want to go back and
listen to them in order this episode
means descriptions of violence and sexual assault. Please use discretion. In March, two thousand fifteen Denise Hoskins and her boyfriend, Aaron Quinn, were asleep.
in how California, when they were woken up around three, a m biased
each man's voice. They were drugged, their hands were tied, zip ties and they were given blacked out swim. Goggles too, where did he's Hoskins was kidnapped,
Aaron Quinn was positioned in front of a video camera and told
it would be monitored at all times. He was told to wait for an instruction to go to the bank and withdraw money if he called the police. He was too
His girlfriend chinese Hoskins would be killed, but errand did call the police and agreed to go in
the police station to provide information. He was question.
for many hours and then he was told that his account was quote extraordinary and that the police did not believe him. Denise Hoskins had been put into the trunk of a car driven hours away and held prisoner. Her kidnapper had raped her twice after about forty eight hours. Denise was released before she was. Let go her kidnapper threatened. Her
He said he knew she would talk to the police, but that there are two things she could not tell them that he had served in the military and that he raped her. If she told police either of those two things
the man said his organization would come back for her and for her family. He said he be watching. She was tall.
We know where your family lives and then she was let go dropped off in her mothers neighbourhood,
in Huntington Beach near LOS Angeles, it was March twenty fifth, two thousand fifteen did he spoke with Huntington Beach police off.
Messrs. They asked if she needed medical attention, but then enough.
Sir asked Denise quote: did you ever ask him to let you go? She noticed
but the officer is holding a recording device down it aside. She asked to speak to her mother and father. An officer said that would happen after she spoke with detectives
She was ass if she'd been sexually assaulted and any said. No. She kept asking to speak to her parents
She says she knew something wasn't right:
story involving of a whale woman. Twenty nine year old, Denise Hoskins turned up this morning at her mother's house in Huntington Beach. After claiming she was kidnapped, Hoskins boyfriend, thirty year old, Eric told police Hoskins was forcibly
now from his home on their island early Monday morning, attorneys for Erin Quaint, maintain he is a victim, not the perpetrator of a hoax and the so called kidnapped for ransom. Of his girlfriend. Denise Hoskins Quaint is the one who called police
one day claiming Hoskins was taken in the middle of the night from his home
the local police issued a statement announcing that Denise had been located and read it out loud at a press conference
that afternoon, Erin
who, still in Valerio, why
should on the news that his lawyers office, the statement said quote from an investigative standpoint. Nothing has changed return to tell
that we are so suspects costs. Everything should change. Entities is alive, I venture
go back to the station with my attorney this round. Some pm that night and day
detector muster tells me morale offer for you a proper agreement. Immunity
the saddest thing was all made up a proper agree
an invite someone to share everything. They know about a crime with assurance that what they say
won't be used against them. Denise was also offered a proper agreement, told she could have immunity if she greeted tell prosecutors what she knew about the kidnapping Aaron Indonesia's we're both offered the same deal either. I take it for two new strikes it or not, both of us and whoever takes it. First will get it and my responses immunity from what so there for much trying to
against each other Denise in Huntington Beach was now with her aunt in her cousin, her cousin.
Was an attorney and he'd spoken on the telephone, with Detective Matt mustard of the valet who police department
That's how she learned about the proper agreement. Her cousin also told her
but the F B, I was sending a plane to John Wayne Airport to transport. Her back come to Vallejo Denise, his family hired a criminal defence attorney. A man named Doug Rapport, Doug Rapport, told Denise na
to take the FBI Plain, he said he didn't want her to get on that plane. For quote the same reason, I wouldn't
vice you to get in the mouth of a great white shark Denise arranged to fly in a commercial flight to San Francisco at eight thirty p m
The Vallejo Police Department issued a press release that red. Given the facts
then presented thus far. This appears to be in order.
Traded event and not a kidnapping. Her brother calls he sought to please her home to a press conference and my watch press conference
Wasn't surprised by shocked by how angry they were usefully how Police Department spokesperson Lieutenant Kenny Park today,
I like to go down Cairo Laundry list of the the facts in this case, so is confirmed that Mr Airing Quinn and me
I miss Denise Hoskins are in a dating relationship and from this point forward I would not refer to them as a victim or witness. Mr Quinn was the first to report that his girlfriend miss Huskins,
was forcibly taken from his home in the early morning. Hours of Sunday by
known strangers and at some point they made a ransom demand. We also know that the statement that Mr Quinn provided
with such an incredible story. We initially had a hard time, believing it and upon further investigation. We were not able to substantiate any of the things that he was saying: bag Italian, the grand scheme of things, Mr Quinn, Amiss Haskins, has plundered valuable resources away from our community and has taken the focus away from the true victims of our community, while instilling fear amongst our community members. So if anything, it is Mr Quinn and Miss Hoskins that owes to community an apology, any evidence. You know why I can tell you that our investigation.
has concluded that none of the claims has been suspension and I can go. I could go one step further to say this, that this was not a random act and added the members of the community are safe and that they have no look. Nothing to fear.
A reporter asked of criminal charges would be filed against chinese Hoskins, Unerring Quinn to which Lieutenant Park replied. That's a very good question.
I'm Phoebe challenge. This is criminal. Arrogant
Ten Francisco right around the time at the press conference is, is airing and by the time I get to my defence attorney's office, one of the first things here
as to me is likely. There lay a please just
under the bus they held a press conference saying that this is all a hoax,
and I'm just sitting there and shock
you had just been released a few hours earlier, gaming Twel
in less than twelve hours before that,
yeah I just was from
going from one nightmare to the next, and I just didn't make sense to me that the police would go after me so aggressively and I'm playing back. You know
everything that happened in the evidence that happen and we never even considering like did I ever psychotic break coming to my and and then
thinking about everything that was said to me in captivity and all the different threats- and you know, if you say something to the police- will know
military style tactics
Are you stand there? Complete arrogance
they wouldn't get cod
So then, I'm wondering to like how deep does this go? Is one of them involved in?
police, and so I am thinking of all the different possibilities of why this could happen. Just made no sense, and even my defence attorney is like in decades of experience, and I
never seen a police department go out this again
so soon, Denise US.
Defence attorney asked her to tell him every single thing that the police could potentially learn about her past and try to
is against her, she answered questions for hours,
defense attorney, listen to me and he said you know, I'm going to represent you and will fight this, and you know you don't have to speak to the police. But if you
who you absolutely do have to tell them about their salts about than being in the military.
Are you I mean I was sick. Just l, just two
I want to make that decision. Thinking Ino. If, if I choose to do this- and I
going to be putting a gun to one of my family members had and and killing them, I mean so
this file internally, like being ripped apart, and my defence attorney tells me you know which helped me make that choice is like look.
You know the whole world is watching you right now and that's what people like this do they want to have power and control a review for the rest of your life and you can't get that them anymore.
Ultimately, it's your decision
but the only way we have a chance of catching them as if, if you talk to the police,
and so I agree in the middle of the night at like phenomenon to three I am and she says: ok, Annie's just starts work.
To try to get in contact with someone from Vallejo, and I could hear Doug saying you know, look we need to get her to a hospitals first,
exam. We need that's a first step we need,
as you know that you know the best time to collect evidence was within forty eight hours and the longer we wait, the less likely we're gonna get this evidence. So that's what we need to do.
and this is a. This would be for a re examine the sexual assault, exam right, yeah them. In short, it start bet it's that rape, exam and
that officer on the phone goes well. How do we know that she's she's raped you,
even talk to us and my attorney saying because
Representing Her- and I am speaking on her behalf and I'm telling you that she's gone through a horrible ordeal she
She was threatened on. We need to do this,
and his responses, look, you know all come to this.
tomorrow will talk to her and then we'll see if, if it's worth setting up the exam, so
I go in and I talked to them fur six
so hours I give them my clothes.
I tell him everything that happened. I tell them why I initially denied the assaults to the hunting to beat police because of those threats our held against me. Denise remembers that
active map mustard asked her about her drug and alcohol use and about her mental health. He asked her
you ever think about fighting back or escaping. He said to her the your dad
told us your a marathon runner. He said you really tough. She also remembers that
active mustard, asked her if she had ever been in the trunk of a car before even quote just messing around, she says he commented repeatedly on how come she was.
and eventually they say, ok, was full said at the start. Exam
and the two nurses
for a really nice and disrespectful as they can be.
You know, but I had this female FBI agents sitting in the corner, who I haven't really talk to
Have another officer outside I'm getting Strychnia gave their taking pictures of me, including
bruising on my back from where he dropped me and I'm just thinking. You know this whole time like this.
my body, gonna betray me. I didn't fight him off and so because of that,
they even gonna. Believe me,
early as March twenty sixth one day,
after the kidnapper had released Denise reporters began to compare
to the fictional character in the two thousand
of crime novel by Gilias Flynn, the moody version
was released in two thousand fourteen would then ask
I can Rosamond Pike in gone girl a man is the primary suspect in the disappearance of his wife
comes out at the wife staged. Her own disappearance
and made her husband look guilty in order to get back at him for cheating on her
it wasn't just a popular narrative in the press. At one point, an FBI
agent asked Missus lawyer. Have you ever watch
The movie gone girl. It I'll explain aloft
our conclusions were base off of fiction.
I say is art
this was too strange should be believed. I think it's unbelievable that their basing thing up
movie, a novel, that's shocking to me. People
again, seeing horrible things about Denise, an errand online Denise received death threats. One person wrote
I wonder how many women were truly victimized while resource
we're being used to find a liar. People said Denise
wanted her fifteen minutes of fame. Even people Denise thought were her friends,
we're shearing stories on Facebook with headlines like real life, gone girl,
allegedly stage your own insane fake kidnapping. There was someone, insist,
that Denise in Erin were telling the truth. They were sending emails to the San Francisco Chronicle, taking responsibility for the kidnapping.
I cannot but actually send emails after the police up
conference coin. A hoax me sent for having five emails, trying to clear and names and describing how they did the crime. In Greece,
detail. The emails contain details that had not been made public and the sender emphasis,
the Denise in Erin were victims and that this was not a hoax.
Denise and Aaron, and their attorneys thought the presence of details that no one else knew would be persuasive to the police and in fact they they use this
Another Joe coming people wrote their eyes and no ha kidnappers come into their defence and
Mr as if we rode aid, including launch,
this man, I mean they even I think accuse my attorney at one point of may be helping me write something and that those pre scheduled emails and
I mean so it didn't matter what happened in a while we were, it was decided. No, there was no escaping it
all this time. The two of you were still
Hadn't been reunited yet because you were both now son
acts in a crime in your lawyers were saying you ve, gotta, be really careful. Tell me a little bit about that. Not being
but to be reunited with each other right away in and what that was like when you, when you eventually were
Our lawyers retires. If we had charge, we might not be all talk for years
How I wonder is her voice was at least three days. We have got to see each other almost half a week after the kidnapping, when we first very united, and during that time I was afraid of,
it is the blaming me I'm sized Pinochet myself not just for it cannot be by our trigger before him. I thought she may be just one to stay away from me in white.
The slate clean but should have my say, man, her able me
hotel and we just
latin others, arms to sob
down the bed and help each other for hours. It is felt
like I could really let go, and I like it
re energised me, and I felt like us being
it is both stronger men. From that point
and especially the next couple months. We did not leave each other side.
and so there was a big sense of relief.
Knowing my I wasn't
just gonna, be by myself- and I was gonna happen by my side-
we'll be right back
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no escaping at my face. My name was gone girl you know and then an errand to
now, as we were hucksters and liars, and
who's gonna start a new job at Keyser has a residency was ending and that didn't follow through when Baron
they were trying to fire him, and there is even a couple friends that thought that the police were being honest,
about it being a hoax, then you know so every didn't we could hardly
trust, anyone or anything. We just had a kind of hide within ourselves, and we was a very small group of meaner, our families for sure,
where's hued rocks and support,
and our are lifelong friends who stood by us and believed in us by it.
anything beyond. I know you didn't know what
or who knew wider, what they believed in so I just felt
everything felt like a threat in the kidnappers are still out there. The police are attacking us, not just the police, but the FBI. Ino were coming
being to northern and southern California, between our families and friends. As we can,
turned to the house, I mean we were just completely lost in those few months. This entire time we were trying to the police actually invest
because we knew that first dangerous individuals out there and they, despite what they're saying their email
their most likely guys hack attack again in June, two thousand and fifteen
a little more than two months after Denise in air and were attacked. Someone broke into a house in the town of
when California, about a forty minute dry from Vallejo.
A man in a mask stood over the bed of a couple in their sixties. In the middle of the night
he tried to tie their hands with zip ties, but the husband began to fight and the wife
into the bathroom and called nine one one. The intruder ran away, leaving a cellphone behind that cell phone was trees, tool. Woman, who said the phone belonged to her son, Matthew, mother. She told police he was staying at their family vacation House in South Lake Tahoe, the Alameda County Sheriff's office assembled a team to search the house. It out of town ran like sergeant of Investigation Day that they were going to do
a search warrant in SALT Lake Tahoe regarding the invasion, and if I wanted to go, I knew the pack my bag and meet them at the station.
This a sergeant, Misty Crusoe in two thousand and fifteen
she was brand new to the investigations unit of the Alameda County Sheriff's office. This was her first case with the unit.
She says they arrived at. The South Lake Tahoe Home broke down the door,
tell Matthew Mother inside they took him into custody. Mystic Russo says the windows were covered with cardboard. There is garbage everywhere it look like he had already committed crimes and just took the evidence of those crimes in his room in boxes. So I
Jerry going through, and there were so many things in plain view like licence is a key make her laptop cell phones and other items that we're in plain view, and I legally was able to collect both of evidence as well. There
The white Mustang Park near the house, which they determined, was stolen vehicle. When Miss
he opened the trunk. She found duct tape and sipped eyes, nerve guns that had been painted black and had leisure pointers attached to them with tape and a blow up doll, and he was dressed in a way. He could it with a male blocked all over the wire wrapped Brown really why're you make it look like he was either only propped
never properly in the trunk of the car. Misty also found a pair of swim goggles with black duct tape covering the eyes and a strand of long blonde,
and I knew in my heart that somebody else word
They come here and we need to find out what happened. I collected all the evidence which, with a lot of a lot of evidence, we shut it in all of Europe and Mark be accorded an draw them.
That boy am. I talked to the commander and tell them that we need to take the back upturn in Tahoe and take a vehicle as a one can piece of evidence without taking everything else that was inside of it. So they all too
I'm going back up there and taking the vehicle, and then, when I got back to the big, it was just going to any little bits of everything.
The white Mustang had been stolen from a Toro University student on mere island where air
when lived when MR spoke with the steward.
He told her about a man had been going around mare, island looking into people's windows, sometimes say,
Gonna retractable ladder this
Prince Mare, island residents, frequently called the Vallejo.
police about it but no rest had been made. He also told mister
the discard, been stolen, very close to the time.
when a woman named Denise Hoskins had been kidnapped and that the valet who police had dismissed it as a gone girl hoax. I went online, I googled gone girl LEO kidnapping. I saw the nieces video conference, it was required and she had one here.
It all sense to me she caught the fully police department and such a person of interest that they might want to look at.
In connection with the kidnapping of Denise Hoskins, she says:
it took a number of phone calls before someone would speak to her and then she was told that they,
investigating the case any further. It was with the FBI, so Misty called the FBI.
She said she thought they should look into Matthew, mother and they came and took all of the evidence that had been collected from the White Mustang in the House and South Lake Tahoe, which included Aaron Quinn's laptop. It had been stolen from his house on the night of the home invasion.
and then everything else the white Mustang also had in the gps, though the cross streets, where I was dropped off, where I was released,
and you know it was the same way out of the home- that I
describes, and so there was just
overwhelming amounts of evidence that linked-
to our case law.
As Matthew Mahler to us, the sky. When we found out about him and news reports,
Apparently he was a Harvard educated attorney. I mean he woods honest about a lot of what he told me.
He was in the military he's in the Marines
one point was married and gotten a divorce and
seem like there was a lot of things and his life that were falling apart, leading up to this point. He had been linked to some prior breakin spout, eight or so years before.
where our case he had ban an attorney immigration attorney, but
Apparently, he was disbarred
two thousand eleven his employer accused him of stealing records from
office, computer network at night, sleeping in a sleeping
again the building to do it and then using a computer program to try.
To hide what he done. Other employers had significant problems
with his failure to represent his clients. The state bar got involved and he was disbarred into those in fifteen, but
his credentials where major component of how the press talked about him.
he's very often referred to as a Harvard educated lawyer
Now the couples attorney say they plan to continue to rebuild their lives and move forward. They would like an apology from the valet Hope Police Department, but so far, Vallejo police
Aren't saying anything they have not provided a comment,
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point Denise in air and began to learn things. They hadn't been told before they learned that three phone calls were made from the kidnapper to Aaron's phone around eight thirty p m. On March twenty third, the first night Denise was being held captive, the police had Aaron's phone and it told Aaron that there had been no communication from the kidnappers
We learned that the phone company was cooperating and could trace those calls to within two hundred square metres of the collars
location in South Lake Tahoe, so had police wanted to try
the calls and search the area they could have done so. The first night.
Denise and learned that the mist calls have been made with a prepaid track phone that have been bought. It target a surveillance
from target shows a man buying the phone wearing a dark polo shirt and dark shorts, the police,
Apparently thought it was Aaron in the video and it even collected black basketball shorts and a black shirt for Marin's Huh
During their investigation, at one point, the police and FBI
had told errands attorney that they had video proof that Errand Denise had orchestrated the whole thing.
Erin entities also learned that the FBI had searched stored unit that had been rented
Under Matthew Mother's name and found five drones, remote controls and video cameras,
They found a video that had been filled with a drone.
Through the window of Aaron's house earlier in the evening,
on the night of the home invasion, but there are a lot of things they still don't know. They still don't know why they were targeted.
Or more specifically, why Aaron in his ex fiance were targeted, they ve tried to get the Department of Justice an FBI to look into it and they don't know what happened to the other people who were with Matthew Mahler when he broke into the house.
Investigators have told them that Matthew Mahler acted alone, pointing to the blow up doll and audio recordings. That mother made to make it seem like multiple people were present in the house. In an interview from jail mother told a reporter. He acted alone, but Denise Unerring say they know what they saw and heard as Denise
it is still sick every step of the way there trying to gaslight us into changing our recollection of events to fit the narrative they ve created in September, two thousand fifteen Matthew, mother pled no contest to four counts of battery robbery and assault for the Dublin Home invasion. The case where Misty crews, who had been assigned to collect evidence.
He was sentenced to ten years in prison and then in September, two thousand sixteen plead guilty to federal kidnapping charges in Denise his case he had entered into an agreement with the prosecution. They would seek no more than a maximum of forty years in prison. In exchange for his guilty plea at the sentencing hearing the prosecution asked for the maximum forty years telling the judge that quote. Public safety requires
that he be imprisoned until these old and weak Matthew mothers. Defence attorney asked. For thirty years he asked the girl
to take into consideration mothers. Mental health refer.
Into a diagnosis of bipolar disorder. He described
others condition, as quote truly debilitating, and
that hearing we were able to speak and give our victim impact statements, and I was the first time we spoke publicly and
we had the whole court room full of mostly are
friends and family supporting us, and you know I know, for myself
I wanted to make sure I looked him in the eye and you know told him how this impacted me in my life and special
In those days of captivity, I was always blindfolded in front of him when he was doing what do you,
made with my body and have complete control over my life,
the whole time I just kind of view them as this blurred figure the sick, faceless ghost
and now there is a name and a face, and I
I looked him in the eye and he looked back at me in
I need to say- and
disempowering and now I gave a sense of closure.
the judge sentence Matthew mother to forty years and the judge addressed Neeson Aaron, saying you're, going down a path of healing the strongest thing you have is each other
in January, two thousand and eighteen, the seat of California, brought six more charges against mouthy mother for crimes committed against Aaron and Denise Kidnapping, two counts of rape, robbery, burglary and falsehood
this meant he hasn't yet can't trial on those charges. There have been delays
are at times wanting to represent himself at times were
with attorneys firing them again
presenting himself in November twenty twenty.
judge ordered him to be moved to secure mental health facility, and it was reported that he had been found incompetent to stand trial.
We contacted the Solano County District attorney's office for an update, but haven't heard back
When did you decide to sue Vallejo? I think we failed in September twenty fifteen we had spoken to,
a civil attorney
Actually, maybe a month before we found out that smaller was caught, didn't seem like it was getting
anywhere cause. It's really hard to fight the police bites
You know now that smaller was high and was theirs.
Evidence to show the actual evidence now made public
to show that that we were actually a part of this horrific crime. We had more to go on as far as being
tat to continue with a suit. Your on. We here we spend
One hundred and forty thousand dollars on criminal defence attorneys in we weren't even charge. Now may families have
the type of resources and is to ban our peril.
Retirement funds has fortunately able sell my home and take away. Allow me, though they people can do and were or hope to with them.
I maybe that show some level accountability. The city of really help
agreed to pay arrogant, Denise, two point: five million dollars.
But as far as they know, none of the valet who police department officers were reprimanded, detective Matt Muster
Was named officer of the year for two thousand fifteen last year, a former Vallejo Police Department, Captain John Whitney sued the city and the department for wrongful termination in his lawsuit, he alleges that he was fired. After speaking up
against police misconduct, John Whitney describes an incident were shortly before the press conference, in which Lieutenant Kenny Part
said, Denise in Erin owed the community and apology. He heard the department chief Andrew do tell Lieutenant Park to quote burn that bitch. He alleges that he was instructed to delete text messages from his phone that referenced Denise and
in case, and he described a culture within the department where some officers would bend the tipps of their staff,
are shaped, badges to signify that they had killed. Someone ball on duty. We reached out
the valet her police department for comment but haven't heard back
but tell me about life. Now. Will you you do.
But in a relationship for like seven months when this whole thing,
That's not very long to have
relation than this happens. Tell me about that and you're still together,
our fortunes to move away from save lay how interesting
crews area, we chose Syria exits,
close the ocean and closer red Worden new needs.
So it can be a big part of our recovery and a husband, Spain are
for well bubble.
We got married and twenty team
We have a daughter who was born on March twenty fifth twenty, which was exactly five years
today of Chinese his release
She provides a slide joy. We do it
regular parents do on watch
The world through horizon.
low excitement she sees. Alma tyres thing helps us
move forward notice to Searcy Bird and sky rise. How amazing birds are flowers blooming we
We ve been going to years a therapy as individuals and couples and helped us process through this Edward truly bless. Our family and friends
shortest throughout this and a lot of people
now ass. You know how
How did you and stay together would break up a lot of couples and I think
gets a test
and so to what our
Inaction really was that mean we never blamed each other? We never attacked each other. You know
it's been a long road of healing and it's been kind of messy and time. It has got uneasy
and we are really fortunate to be in a much better place view have each other. We have our families, we have our sweet little girl, we have our jobs and were still helping people,
retreating patience, and and now we get to reclaim
trauma and check.
Our story and so, in other words, really happy that we get the opportunity to do that today. Denise us
certified as victims advocate and she and Aaron have written a book is called the victim Aff from crime victims to suspects to survivors. They write
to all the many other victims and survivors out there? We have
fuelled and inspired by all of you
strength and bravery,
This is our humble attempt to pay it forward.
The police said that both of you didn't act like victims or
What good enough victims didn't do what victims are supposed to do? What you think about that
What do you think about? What's expected of victims while cigar
to the gong girl thing I mean I haven't, read the book or seeing the movie before this whole thing and supposedly I was replicating something I didn't know anything about, but when I did watch the movie I made before that, I would kind of go back and forth,
could have done this. I should have thought back so that aid have bruises, so Asia had internal injury is so they would believe me, and I just kept battling with myself about it until I watch that movie. I realized it didn't matter what I did or said
if I had more gruesome injuries because she had herself in the face with a
hammer. She was very dramatic when she's released- and I was told I was too calm, so it was clear that they had decided before. I was even released that they'd.
believe me and so what no matter how I acted it was they were going to make that fit their beliefs and their narrative, I'm on my way
some things are to my brother was. I knew too many details which I know what that means. I'm trying
as much information as possible to help them so is to make detail. Seven hundred and eighty nine is arbitrary, cut off. I think people don't know how they're going to react until they're in that that experience and police are trained at every victim acts differently. The tunnel vision.
By us the thing that people need to realise that they may be fine to those traps of how someone should act and
you don't know everyone story. I don't believe it
But these put yourself in some outer shoes, that's impossible link. Empathy is
Knowing that you'll never be in someone else's shoes, but try anyways,
criminal is created by Lauren Spore and me
media Wilson is our senior producer. Susanna represented
producer engineering virus Henry Autumn Ex by Michael,
feel John Evans and Rob buyers a final. Finally to
During Alexander makes original illustrations reach up,
criminal. You can see them at this is criminal dot com or on Facebook, and twitter at criminal show premise:
is recorded in the studio of North Carolina public radio. To view you and see were proud. Member of radio utopia from Pierre acts, a collection
the best podcast around
I'm Phoebe Judge this is criminal
Transcript generated on 2021-07-20.