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Episode 178: "The experiment requires that you continue."

2021-12-03 | 🔗

1. Please continue. 2. The experiment requires that you continue. 3. It is absolutely essential that you continue. 4. You have no other choice, you must go on.

Gina Perry's book is Behind the Shock Machine: The Untold Story of the Notorious Milgram Psychology Experiments.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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such criminal and safe ten dollars on your first purchase that story worth dot com such criminal to save ten dollars on your first purchase high, its Phoebe I wanted to. Let you know that we ve got some new merge and the works for the holidays. Max headroom, coffee, mug, a masquerade, coffee mug with a nice picture of a rapid on it, some brand new crimson. socks, we'll put a link in the show notes or you can visit. This is criminal dot com, slash shop thanks very much for your support It was a large machine with thirty switches on us. Each switch was a fifteen votes increment, so the switches ranged from fifteen votes at one end. To fall. a hundred and fifty votes at the other end, they were libelled in clumps relay a mild shock through today
Inga severe and extreme shock, in name in sixty one, a twenty five year old, Connecticut, named bill. Men old answered paper, had for volunteers to participate in a steady, Addio University. He rashly Yahoo com. just before seven p m and followed, assign directly him down into a basement, he said he didn't know what to expect the ad said. The experiment had to do with learning and memory. He later said I was intimidated, having grown up in that area, Yale was, like God, He was created by a man in a lab coat referred to as the experimenter and then A second volunteer arrived the two votes. dear shook hands and the man in the lab coat paid them each four dollars and fifty cents, and then he explained what was going to happen
told them. The experiment would be used to study the effects of punishment on learning. One of them would play the part of the teacher, and the other would play the role of what they called the learner and the learner strapped into a chair in another room. An hooked up two. Why is this so? its historian and psychologists, Gina Perry and the teacher is These it in front of a shock machine and the teachers job is to teach them a piece of words and then too Taste, the memory of those words pays if they got the answer right, the teacher would move on to the next one.
If the learner gets, the ants are wrong. The teacher is instructed to give them an electric shock. Here's how it worked. There is a long list of word pairs, blue girl, nice day, fat, neck, rich boy, fast, bird, blunt arrow, soft, here, cool cave, brave, woman, sharp needle, slow dance, tame, bear sweet, taste, true story. The teacher was told that, after the learner heard the list, the teacher would then quit the learner on which words paired together, offering multiple choices, giving the right answer along with three wrong ones. For example, the word soft, followed by the choices rug, pillow hair
and grass. If the learner didn't give the correct answer, the teacher was instructed by the experimenter to use one of the thirty switches on the machine in front of them. They were to press the switch, the shop machine and with every wrong answer, the teacher had to advance a switch up the shop machine so that the levels of shock increased over it, I'm bill men old, later told Gina Perry that it a hundred and five volts. Her the learner make a noise at a hundred and twenty votes. The learner yelled bill said I thought. oh god, what the hell am I doing here. What is this all about. He remembered doing everything he could to read them.
words in a way that would make it obvious- which one was right, he says he asked the experimenter if he and the learner could switch places. He thought he wouldn't have so much trouble remembering which words went together and he would refer to be the one getting shocked, but he was told no, he remembered sweating and shaking and not knowing what was going on. He later said. It sounds really strange, but it never occurred to me just to say you know what I'm walking out of here, which I could have done At this point I was just soaking wet. I was just disturbed by all this. After three hundred and thirty votes, the man volunteering as the learner stopped responding, but Bill nettled was instructed to keep going and he did.
Maximum, he was one of hundreds of volunteers who participated in the study between August of nineteen sixty one and may of nineteen sixty two and who continue to do as they were told and administer shocks. Their participation was framed as important to the research important science sanctioned by experts at Yale. It was reported that if they resisted The experimenter would tell them to keep going with this series of responses. One please continue to the experiment requires that you continue. three. It is absolutely essential that you continue and for you have no other choice, you must go on when the results of the study republished one headline red,
sixty five percent in test blindly obey order to inflict pain. I'm Phoebe Judge This is criminal. The experiment was conducted by twenty eight year old psychologist name Stanley Milkroom- had accepted a job at Yale in nineteen. Sixty as an assistant prefer and the Department of Psychology Milgram started work on a project with one of his classes Where they were looking at how you could measure degree he said Albanians to Authority and Milgram. not with the notion of. Devising a shock machine and
He's initial idea was how you could persuade people to give some one that I didn't know electric shocks and the participants were too. that the study was an experiment in memory and learning so, Russian, ah they would given was that the electric shocks would. Punish alone are obviously for giving the wrong answer, but the implication wars that would also motivate them to return an information it wasn't They all that in a lot of detail only when they saw the ad in the newspaper it was described as a learning and memory experiment They would arrive and see this shock machine exactly so that more than thy back and four in the Saint set,
it wasn't until I got to the lab that they were told that there was punishment involved in this experiment. There is a law that the volunteers acting as teachers like Bill Mental, did not know. First of all, they were the ones being studied. Everyone else the experimenter in the lab coat and the other until they met when they arrived had been assigned to. RO the learner had all been hired to play their part. One was actually being shocked. The yelling was all for the benefit of the teacher and the whole. All experimental scenario was like a meaning. He dramatic ply where The teacher was the one He wasn't aware What was really going on and they were being observed, by Stanley. Milkroom from behind the two a mere he
had the learner in the room next door, crying out in pine particular points during the experiment, so that they learn as cries became more intense as the shock vote teach increased and at one point the learner complained that he had hot problem. and that he was feeling eel until if they teach your wings to the maximum voltage on the machine which is four hundred and fifty votes. The above that stage. The learner fallen silent. So After hearing the learners, cries and complaints and please to be freed, there was silence by the end of the four hundred and fifty votes. Could the teacher the study participant
see into a room where the learner was hooked up to this machine, or could they just he? that the screens or was their actual visual, the two she couldn't say the learner once I was seated in front of the machine. This is, in the general description of milligrams experiments in the most famous version of the experiment, the one that's depicted in textbooks, TAT. She did not say the Luna, their teacher deed, by the sea, the learn at the very beginning of the experiment? Seated in the chair, in the adjoining room, being strap dean and connected. So the teacher was under the impression that the Luna was definitely connected to that machine, and the textbook accounts of the experiment is a conclusion: was that sixty five percent
teaches, went all the way on the shop machine and administered four hundred and fifty votes. The Milkroom obedience experiment, one of the most famous social psychology studies of the twentieth century. has been held up for generations as an illustration of our willingness to inflict pain under the direction of an authority. Figure Milkroom wrote for many people, oh It is a deeply ingrained behaviour tendency, indeed a potent impulse. Overriding training and ethics, sympathy and moral conduct. He conducted twenty four versions of the experiment. Most variations had forty volunteers, some had twenty. In total, its estimated adore. There were seven hundred and eighty participants in one variation. The teachers
for all women, sixty five percent went to the maximum voltage in another. They were people pretending to be fair the teachers in the room with the person volunteering for the experiment, applying pressure to conform breach of obedience, went up. They also tried this with people pretending to be fellow teachers in refusing to Can you one by one and in this variation rates of obedience, went way down to ten percent. They tested the relevance of the study being held at Yale, and so they relocated to Bridgeport Connecticut. We're about half of participants went to the MAX in that variation to volunteers walked away altogether.
There is one variation were the experimenter was not physically present in the room watching the teacher rate obedience dropped about twenty percent. Some teachers lied about increasing the voltage when they hadn't, when the teacher was allowed to choose what level of shock was administered. Only one person went to the max in the final variation volunteers were ass, to bring a friend or relative One would act is teacher and the other, the learner, the person volunteering as the learner was strapped in and then privately told what was going on and told to make noises and shout as if they were in pain. In this variation, where the teacher is led to believe that they
hurting someone, they knew the number of people who went to the maximum number of votes drop to fifteen percent, one man who was assigned to act as the teacher and it's like shocks on his son refused to continue past one hundred and sixty five v and said will give you back your checked. You can have your money back, I'm not that hard up, I'm not going to have him get hurt. Dina Perry says that when she began researching Milgram's work, she was surprised to realize that the best known version of the Experiment- fifty five percent of participants went to the maximum was only one of these twenty four variations and it's the one that is used for the argument that we have a very troubling and die Outside tat human nature, but the actual exe There remain only involved, forty people and all
Very shocked to discover that this thing that is presented as a truth about us as humans was based on such a tiny sample and the conclusion of the experiment. Milgram from kind to was that we will blindly obey the instructions of an authority figure even when it conflicts with our conscience and we, according to Milgram, almost programmed to commit evil at the commands of a figure in authority, and- and this was very inspired by the trial of at off Eichmann. He was a leading not see and his trial televised in America just around the same time. That Milgram was making very
early. Preparations for this experiment. Eichmann defence attorneys argued that he had simply been following orders. Writing a letter asking for clemency, Eichmann row, there is a need to draw a line between the leaders responsible and the people like me forced to serve as mere instruments in the hands of the leaders there was his whole notion that ordinary people could be monsters without you knowing and milligrams. Experiment was really in. by and by that idea, and he argued that he actually proved that that was true, that, despite their distress and spot, they have reluctance and spot conscience is telling them that what they were doing was wrong. Most people in his experiment, Milgram argued went off
Why, on the shop machine and delivered what I believed were exe namely dangerous levels of electric shocks, to someone I never make and Milgram publish the results of he's one of his first variations of the experiment in nineteen sixty three and it really touched and move because it seemed to demonstrate that the Holocaust was not a result of any thing. Spit if it to the german psyche that he'd found, something in America that people had only until that time associated with joy. Behaviour during World war, two Stanley, Milgram told CBS. Sixty minutes quote if a system,
death camps were set up in the United States of the sort we had seen a Nazi Germany. One would be able to find sufficient personnel, for those camps in any medium sized american town, we'll be right. Back support for criminal comes from square space, square spaces everything you need to create a beautiful and modern website. They offer. Lord winning designer templates. Do you can customize with just a few clicks, and it's very easy integrate anything you can imagine. A menu and audio file away to accept payments are don't since and much more and once you ve got your site set up, there's nothing to install patch up great, ever
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This due for milligrams, fame and career. The experiments were a real mixed bag. Milgram at the same time that he was credited with discovering something countering shoe achieve and shocking about human nature. He was also oh regarded as someone who hedge breached the the ethical guidelines for what you should ask subjects to do inside the logical research so that what the teachers were were actually showing was that they were o k, basically administering pain and torture. That's what Milgram would have us believe
the evidence from the archival material does painted different picture. Stanley. Milgram had said that each volunteer was fully debriefed after each I am reassured that they had not done anything wrong. Milgram called it a d hoaxing in which they were told that no shocks delivered that the the learner wasn't harmed and that the purpose of the experiment with experts, I ain't in a way so that I would leave the laboratory feeling like they learnt something useful about themselves and with there they minds at rest. That was certainly milligrams. Explanation of what occurred after the experiment. I cannot action being in that position after experiment. If I had been told I was a tea
turn, then it added minister. These shocks, even even if I had been told that it that it was all fake. I Canada, and how I feel about myself walking out of that year. Laboratory, yes, it's hard to believe is that people could walk out, That laboratory feeling ok about what they just been part of but Milgram argued that eighty four percent of people that who took part they'd lighter that they were glad to have been involved. So that seem to add white to his argument that he was able to diffuse any tension, and restore their sense of well being before I left? But, as you say, it seems hard to believe. Doesn't it when
Tina Perry met with Bill meddled the volunteer. He told her tat. He left Yale that day, not knowing that the shocks hadn't been real. He remembered that after The experiment the learner, walked into the room and said hello. How are you they talked for a couple of minutes and then walked out of the building together. He said we got it onto the street and he went one way and I went the other I was in this crazy situation. He said I was just walk out of there. Nobody was gonna, shoot me or put me in a prison cell. I still didn't know what had happened. He described hack inflicted. He felt journey experiment that. Also he described how confusing the whole situation wars because he didn't know which cues he should be paying attention to. Should he be listening to the man who was calling out or should he be listening,
the experimenter, was a him being tasted or was it the man in the room next door? None of these things were present. Tat in the official accounts, the experiment, and so that really fascinated me. The other thing that bill told me was that afterwards. The first thing he did when he got home was he went striking store to his neighbour's house. His neighbor was an electrician, because bill was absolutely wanting. Come ocean from someone about what damage he could possibly have. inflicted on the man in the room next door without voltage. they both on the machine. So Suddenly, I was presented with this accounted the the experiment that was very much at odds,
with what I'd been led to believe. So it really forced me to go back to the archives and start to double check the descriptions, the published descriptions that Milgram had given and start to compare them with the audio recordings of the experiments themselves. You listen to vote two hundred hours of them. I listened to those type recordings with a heavy heart because they were very hard to listen to. It was very difficult to hear the anguish of the teachers. It was a difficult to hear them. Pleading with the experimenter was very difficult to hear the pressure that they were put under chicken but he knew during me experiment and normal
these things were included in official accounts? Milgram did talk about people being under stress. He did talking here first journal article about how are poised business man had been reduced to it. sharing stuttering, Rick. As a result of being, teacher in the experiment, but actually hearing it unfair. old in the audio was very disturbing. And. it really was a revelation in the sense that the Experiment has always been depicted as highly rigorous and scientifically conducted and and listening to it? It was far more like a dramatic and distressing play way
Experimenter was bullying and often coercing people to continuing, so Milburn Description of the experiment, for example, was that if the teacher, refuse to continue four times. That is, the teacher would say that they wanted to stop. The experimental would give what Milgram called for frauds, each one increasing in intensity from tee Now you must go on through to the fourth and final proud, which was you had no other choice. You must continue now if the teachers still refused after that. Fourth proud from the experimenter Milgram said, the experiment was terminated.
and the teacher was deemed I disobedient subject. They refused four times and the experiment was called off. If you like, but what I heard on the types was the x There are going over and above for prods improvising, making up reasons for why they should continue. I also heard teaches bargaining. I heard Teachers asking the experiment to go and check on the learner before I go any further. The roles of experts, mentor and learner were often played by the same two men. They weren't psychologists.
or even affiliated with the ale, did answered ads in the paper. The experimenter was played by thirty one year old, Highschool biology teacher named John Williams, Milgram described him as impassive and stern, And the learner was a forty seven year old man named Jim Mcdonough, he was an auditor for railway company and when milk or madam he wrote quote excellent his victim, a plus victim Gina Perry, wondered about the impact of the experiments on these two men. She interviewed their children in the subject Mcdonough, who played the role of the learner in many variations. His son Bob said that his father, died a few years after the experiment, when Bob was very young, Bob haven't you, his father had been involved until he saw men about it. On tv
seeing the video of the experiment and hearing clips of himself running like he was in pain, are some of us only memories. Of his father we'll be right back, support, the criminal comes from Canada can, for pro was a design platform that makes it easy to create stunning content in just a few clicks, Canvas pro has tons of premium fonts photos and graph plus thousands of templates choose from, and we really like that. You can even cheering collaborate on designs in real time design like approach with Canada problem right now you
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Are not available in all states and situations Stanley Milkroom was born in the Bronx in nineteen thirty three, he steady political science has an under Graduate and then enrolled in graduate school at Harvard he had studied with solar an ash who was another leading social psychologist and ashes? Research interest was in conformity what it was about people in groups that meant that some people would change their point of view. Go out to their judgments in order to feeding with Paypal around them. So milk and worked with ash on those kinds of experiments and ash was famous for his own working conformity? Bout Milgram wanted to give it he's on particular twist and he's specific flyover. If.
Luck. He was teaching in the ill psychology department. Around the same time, Philips embargo was teaching their Zimbabwe design, the infamous Stanford prison experiment, and he and Milgram had attended the same high school. This stand for prison experiment took place in eighteen. Seventy one. This embargo place an ad in the newspaper that said male college students needed for psychological studies, Life more than seventy students answered and he chose about twenty to participate. They were promised fifteen dollars a day for one to two weeks and were assigned to one of two roles: either prison guard or inmate. They were given uniforms and set up in what was basically a prison said six by nine foot cells in the basement.
the psychology building at Stanford. After six days, some of the volunteers acting his guards had become so abusive. That's embargo cancel the experiment. It was said to have illustrated that, when someone is in a position of power over another person like a prison guard that they may exhibit shocking cruelty, Zimbabwe has said quote: evil situations make most people evil, but in recent years journalists and researchers have interviewed some of the men who participated and just like, with Jean Parrys Research into Milgram Study, found that that shorthand, take away of the study doesn't
how the whole story, some of the volunteers have said they were coached Leif said they were trying to do what they thought the researchers wanted them to do. Critics have pointed out that we should all be a bit less willing to trust studies. The generalised about human behavior, even back in nineteen. Sixty four a developmental psychologist, named Diana bomb rind, published a critical review of milk rooms experiment. Criticising among ethical grounds, but also criticising them, because she said there was no. Why did you could say that what happened in full five minutes in a laboratory in New Haven was equivalent to what happened in Nazi Germany. She was critical of the way he treated the people, volunteering to be in his study. He himself
acknowledging that it was a quote- nerve shattering experience for them. Over the years. People have said that kind of deception and theatricality was it odds with science and he's been criticised for not being more forthcoming with his data. For instance, he'd collected data from his participants indicating that not everyone was convinced that the shocks were real. Some people said they felt skeptical and Milgram performed an analysis of how those people behave. toward the learner in one unpublished, analysis that Milgram did over fifty percent of people had doubts about the believe ability of the experiments and what he found when he analyzed that by comparing how much they believed that the experiment was real with the amount of shocks that I gave in this unpublished paper mill,
and found that there was a relationship so that the poor, who believed that the experiment was real. and that the learner was actually in pain were likely to give lower levels of shock than people who had doubts. That the thing was real and there was such an outcry from some quarters. Particular monks, tease, colleagues about the ethical issues involved in the experiment that in a way he double down about the importance of the experiment, its relevance to the Holocaust the lack of harm that was involved for people who took pass, so he brushed a lot of the ambiguity out of me, if you shall accounts and really
The then really key thing I think I took away from the experiment sees that We were wise relied on the scientists account of the experiment as we doing in all research, but when it's an experiment that involves human subjects, what did they make of it? What could they have told us Quite apart from what Milgram told us about what happened in that lab, finding out ass, much ass. She could about the people who participated in Milkroom Study parry found evidence of disobedience, men and women, arguing with the authority figure.
saying this isn't right, one man when, given the fourth prod by the experimenter, do you have no other choice? You must go on replied. I do have a choice Why don't? I have a choice I came here on my own free will. I thought I, help in a research project, but if I have to hurt somebody to do that or if I was in his place too, I wouldn't stay there. I can continue, I'm very sorry, of the twenty four variations of milligrams. Experiments in Madrid. already if those variations people, abide the experimenter, so it actually very exciting to me that in Ireland interesting this material, we can say what we thought. We believed what we were told
was based on one variation at twenty four. If you look not just at the behaviour of forty people, but you the behaviour of seven hundred and eighty people that went through we'll grooms lab the picture is much more up to me take them, we ve been led to believe in in the main people were disobedient. That is a much more hopeful note. Ass human nature, the shock machine itself is now in the archives
history of american psychology at the University of Akron in Ohio and was included in an exhibition for the hundredth anniversary of the American Psychological Association to see it. You'd have to walk down the hallway with a black and white checkerboard for and assign said attention. Please walk on the black squares. Only apparently ninety percent of visitors followed the direction. And at the end of the hallway they arrived at the shock machine inside of plastic glass box criminal is created by Lord Sport, and me, media was as our senior producer zennor, percent. As our producer engineering the press, Henry Audio, makes by Rob buyers special thing. Similarly, Clark Julian Alexander, makes original illustrations preach up sort of criminal
You can see them at. This is criminal dot com or on Facebook and twitter at criminal, show Jeanne Parrys book is behind the shock machine. The unto story of the notorious Milgram psychology experiments criminal is quoted in the studio of North Carolina public radio W and see I'm Phoebe Judge This is criminal.
Transcript generated on 2021-12-03.