We never talked about being fugitives because at that point we didn't know It's RON when we we started to find out. We still didn't talk about it. Then I there, because you full been raised for this one role, which is don't tell, and it's very hard to you know even now to the states. It feels surreal. To talk about it so openly, Tyler Weather, all his lived all over the world. She grew up in thirteen houses in five countries and no matter where her family went. The rule was always the same. Don't talk so when I was nine years old, I run we're coming home from school one day with my sister, and we saw these two characters in our front room. There are two strangers, I you should remember them being the shady looking and we went.

To let ourselves and a mom was there at there at the back door to greet us and she told us We should go back to our neighbor's house, I'm who's a good friend of ours and wait there for her, and we can tell that there's something amiss and the way that she said the s. So we went back to a neighbor's house in armor. Even that night. We we ended up over because she'd found and said that granny was second, that she would see us the next day and that night sleeping our friends, house, we whispered about it, and even then we knew something was wrong. That people who are in our living room represented something was going to change, and I was maybe a week later and she hadn't woken me up for school one morning, and I actually remember I remember it really vividly 'cause. I thought that we've been located a day off. I thought it was a reward for, and I was excited by this day off, and I will

downstairs and mom was waiting for Aston. Her share this amazing at the core of the never ending baddest, this enormous king size, bad, where we spent many mornings and christmases and birthdays, and when I would come out when they're sick and she was sitting up in this bad waiting for me and my sister. We made a round of tea, and we all got in, and she told us that there was something important she was going to have to tell us that some it happened and things were going to be quite difficult for some time and then she told us that dad was a fugitive that he was wanted by the police and that they were looking for him and that he had gone. She didn't know where, and she didn't know when would be able to speak to him again CHI

told us that in all probability Scotland Yard had bugs are phone and our perhaps our car, perhaps our house, and that we have to be careful. But what we said about dad and about the times we had spent with him, because we didn't want to give them any information they might be able to use, and we noticed tist them shortly to that number. My system pointed them out to me one day that they followed the car home from school and and you're. Never sure you don't know if they're following you, you don't know if they're there, you know they might be and that kind of creates quite pervasive sense of anxiety, a sense of being watched. What did you think your father had done. I had no idea, I know I was so young and what do you know it? You know nine hundred and ten one thousand one hundred and twelve. You don't

hello. A lot of a lot very new wants understanding about the nature of different crimes. So when you, when you have like I understand you must done something pretty bad because all these people were off to him and I I couldn't imagine that it was something small all this trouble, but you think about could have robbed a bank could have killed somebody now. I never really thought that that was a possibility, but you're running through this, the type of crimes that you're aware of in your head. I spend a lot of time thinking about what he might have done and if it came, I never landed on anything firm, hi, Ben and Tyler's father. The first time I ever sold pot was for rolled a hundred hundred joints for the Beatles I was paid a dollar a joint, then is a pseudonym. He agreed with us on the condition that we didn't use his real name. He on long island. In the nineteen fifties, he went to school, the

city of Pennsylvania, where he studied finance, and then he got a job on Wall Street. He was successful both in his real job and his side. Job selling pot at first I was very nervous around pot. I had a Wall Street business, I was doing well and it may be very nervous to be around pot. I was afraid I was going to lose my license slowly over time like became more and more comfortable with larger amounts of pot, and I had friend who was bringing a pot from Florida and I think the first we're bringing it up in suitcases and they would actually put the new cases on airplanes. At that point they were in checking suitcases for terrorists and sometimes they put the suitcases on on the plane without even a person being on, and someone will pick it up at the other side, so it was

definitely more fun than Wall Street and the people were what my sir and there was demand in the in the country for more more pot. This was the this was the mid seventies then and then finally left Wall Street, and I moved to California and what that might be. This group to the point where other people who were bringing in heart would come to me to sell pot. So at that point I realize that the well, maybe I should bring bring in the pot since the I was selling it for these other smugglers and what I started to do with take my Wall Street principles, one of the things that I had learned in Wall Street and started to apply it to oh, the pot business such as

raising money to finance a trip paying over three to one on investments, and then we start two room actually develop a marketing. They started putting decals on the backs of pot, so people could recognize their brand and the stakes get getting higher. What is it about risk that so appealing? I guess it's. The reward. Ah

and maybe the unknown. I would like to gamble not wild gambling but measured gambling, and that's why the stock market appeals, and it still does it's a little bit of the unknown. Who makes more interesting not knowing what's going to happen every day. He was also making a ton of money. He collected art vintage cars. He built a huge yellow house in Northern California, with a two acre lake, an octagonal tennis courts balls can collect in the corners the ponies and elaborate playground for his kids, we're just a normal family living on a very idyllic life and all, and then I would go off and make my pay from Coles and may have a secret meetings. And of course those are. It was scary, but you could

realize what level of fear you're able to deal with until you're faced with you're once they installed, false wall in the back of a truck and then went to goodwill and filled it with furniture thinking that if they go Stop no would want to unpack all of that and even if they did, the pot was still hidden behind the false wall they chartered. Planes one time he commissioned one hundred foot three did schooner to sail from Thailand to Tacoma Washington, packed with pot. He was an actual drug kingpin at the top of his game. But then everything went wrong. He packed up his wife and kid and started running I'm Phoebe judge. This is criminal. Everything that

I really should have stopped and then the person that I was involved smuggling with was doing another venture and he asked me if I wanted to invest, which I was tempted and really shouldn't have, and I did invest, and I also had some my friends invest in the venture and where was supposed to be a small adventure, it kept getting a larger and larger. What do you mean? What type of venture or venture was are contact in Thailand? They would isolate a piece of pretty in Thailand in the jungle and they were just grow pot dedicated to our venture, and there would be entire families and communities that all they did was growing package. The pot.

And they would put him in ten pound vacuum, packed bags with a label, but then things started to fall apart. I was really worried that everybody would getting in trouble. The member is going to lose the money and it was quite substantial. It was about thirty five thousand pounds of Thai so that was worth about fifty million dollars Ben says he made sure he never left a paper trail, but six months later he learned that not everyone had been so careful. One of the men had been working with was raided and Iden buying information about Ben was founded of the documents at that time are was receiving oh information about what the FBI was doing on the investigation. I,

how I received it to news, is not important, but it reached a point where I realize that the it was going to fall apart from the and I have the choice of fighting it, which I knew I would lose based on arm of the way things came apart, a Reagan was president and Nancy Reagan was saying no to drugs and the sentences will begin to be draconian and they were trying to be examples, so I could be facing twenty years to life for organized crime, and so I talked about it with my wife and she was always quite adventurous as well. She was very interesting, brilliant lady, and but you really didn't want to see me go to the prison, and so we,

talked about it and I get a bunch of research on which countries had extradition which didn't or I had some friends in Europe that we're living very nicely in the south of France and England as fugitives and seem very happy, so they drove through the night they packed at the family into the cars. We had one suitcase each in a small bag and we we drove through the night to the airport, I'm to fly first to Rome and then onward from there, and the plan was that we would fly that first leg of the journey in our real names and we didn't plan to stay in a room, so at that point we would have created a false trail leading to Rome. I know that night when mom. Pulling out of the driveway. There was definitely a fear that we might be followed

My main reason really was too. I wanted to be with the kids when they were young. I felt if I had go to prison later, if they were formed and and had more time with me and the family those early years, I focus more important than the lady did you have enough money to run comfortably much money were leaving absolutely had enough money live comfortably and I was also somewhat knowledgeable about. Investing it. So I could make more money with the money. I have plenty of money to leave with no problem, millions and millions of dollars or millions. Yes, I think at that time, when I left, I had, I think, like five million dollars liquid liquid, how difficult was it

keep what was going on from your children. Did they just think this was a big adventure? What they did? No work was going on to them, it was, the first one to Portugal and the kids young, so they were too young to really have a sense of what was going on Ann we went to a nice community and they went to pretty good european schools and we got a lovely family life. Top there's family was constantly on the move: Rome, Portugal, England, the South of France back to England. He wanted to resurrect that I've said: we've given up that beautiful life in the Yellow House. He wanted to make it better and to fix it, but uh doing that, and then that fixation on that goal. He lost himself to that and he became, I think, quite distant for mom

his entire life revolved around talking to lawyers in the phone. He was also his organization. By the time he got into trouble had grown into about twenty people and each of those people who are implicated he was trying to port. So some of them are also in hiding. Some of them are going through the court system back in the states, and I you know, I think, deep down. He felt incredibly responsible for them and had a burden of guilt as well that had all fallen apart like this, and so those were his days was on the phone trying to contain this disaster that happened and in everybody's lives, and I think that took in that put on the strain on their marriage and insisting that an I think by that point was very difficult for my mom to except how far this hot our lives are at

she had to sacrifice in order for him to be free, we'll be right. Back support for criminal comes from Ziprecruiter and was super critter hiring is fast and smart. When Cafel tours Seo Dylan Masko it's needed to hire director of coffee. He went to zip recruiter, posted his job and found the best person for the role in just a few days. Zip. Recruiters technology finds people with the right experience and invite them to apply to your job. Four out of five employers who post on Ziprecruiter, get a quality candidate within the Staying right now you can try Ziprecruiter for free and super critter dot com, slash criminal, that super critter dot com, slash criminal

the smartest way to hire, thanks to native deodorant for their support native, creates products with trusted ingredients and trusted performance and they have over eight thousand and five star reviews from customers. Their products are formal without aluminum or parabens, and come in a wide variety of sense, including coconut and vanilla, and pull up the cement. That's always my favorite for twenty percent off your first purchase, visitnativedeodorant dot com and use promo code criminal during checkout. That's twenty percent off your first purchase with promo code criminal at need of deodorant dot com resentful might be the right right right. I think she was rightfully angry that he had hits. Situation and

They are the ones at home, with Scott God breathing down our neck and also sense of you know. When was this going to end tile his mother and father separated he moved to London and they work together to make sure he saw the kids as much as was safely possible? Most of all, she felt like the FBI and taking away our life completely and she didn't want them to win. She supported to dad when dad was on the run and make sure that he got to see us and she by supported, I mean she helped to see us basically and help him have a relationship with us in London. Ben, lived in a townhouse and had the attic converted into a playroom for the kids when they visited Tyler members getting to watch the Simpsons and ordering pizza he was having under his false identity and

he was going and paying taxes under as false identity had legitimate businesses. He once got a speeding ticket and actually went the court for his speeding ticket and they didn't know anything so it seemed pretty secure, but he also wasn't taking the money he used to be making it and that money was dwindling. I think he never found. He had something like two hundred thousand as of gold buried in someone's back garden, which he never found again. So he headed to invest money for another pair of drug smugglers, and he he saw this. He didn't see. This is risky at the time. For him it was the sense of getting back to his financial roots, with Scotland Yard, showing up at Tyler's mother's house, the fan we devised an elaborate method of secret communication. So the way it works is he we would have the number,

with the various pay phones and then we would set three appointments to speak at three different pay: phones with a different time and for each one and the reason you do always work three in advance was that if you missed one there be a chance catch up on the next one, and if you missed that one too, you know that is something wrong, and there be one slash three finals uncle just in case, but you always wanted to make sure that those phone calls are planned in case one of us- and that was a warning system as well. So if we didn't hear from him on those occasions or if he didn't hear from us, he knows something was wrong and he always in the phone calls and he also writes letters he never specified where he was and he had. The letters are fascinating because you can see. I'm trying to tell us about what he's doing and trying to connect with us while giving away absolutely nothing in case the letters were intercepted. These secret visits and phone calls encoded. Letters worked pretty well her father kept moving from place

place, managing to evade arrest to celebrate Tyler's 12th birthday it arranged that she and her sister would travel to Saint Lucia to be with their father. The girls made it there safely, but on the actual day. If Tyler's birthday authorities showed up at Tyler's mother's house in England, hoping to find Ben and they raided the house searching for evidence of where we were and found. I think we move never known exactly what they found. We think maybe our flight details maybe one of our jacket, pockets or something we'd overlooked, something small and that's when they came for us in Saint Lucia. Tyler's mother called Ben to warn him. Tyler remembers the phone call, she had a wonderful birthday, they'd gone, scuba, diving and seen a volcano, and

We go back and we are going to go and have lobster that evening and Rodney Bay, and I never had lobster So this is pretty exciting. An we've gone up to get dressed for the evening and we came back down my sister and we sore him in his office dressed for dinner on the telephone, an we knew at that point We knew immediately then told the girls to pack their bags and they took a car to the airport and half whale on the road he stopped in the middle, this banana field and he got out- and he said as far as he was going to go with us, and the driver would get us to the airport safely and we've been flying all over the world at this point by ourselves that we need we were doing, and he said to goodbye and who sorry screwed up my birthday and and I remember this image of him, looking out the back of looking at the back of the car

and he was standing on this this road in the early morning, this sport bag sort of thrown over his shoulder waving goodbye at us- and I didn't know you know when we would see him again or how long it would be. Seven months later, Tyler and her sister got a letter I'll be content to know that you are well and together. If you miss me just think of that wonderful time together and know that it will surely happen again, life is long and full of surprises, much much love dad, He was convicted under the continuing criminal enterprise statute. Sometimes called the kingpin statute, as well as a hundred odds. Different charges are here's every time he was going on the run or changing identities. Each of these things carried charges, and so we had the original

which is that he had later charges from when he was. Testing the money for the other set of smuggler's. He he ended up a crane. I think hundred hundred and forty three different charges against him is given a month to get his affairs in order before his prison sentence began. Remember we went to Alcatraz, which is a you would think that a strange thing to do when you're about to start for sentence, but I guess that counts the site and we made jokes all the way through but during this time he also sat us down and for the first time he told us what he had done. It was surreal to hear at last and also to hear my dad talk about drugs which, by this point, I kind of understood what drugs were. But I really didn't know very much so to hear that he was a pot. Smuggler was. Well it. It blew my mind, the things and not just any pot smoker that he had been a major pot smuggler he

the sentence to ten years at the Lump Oak federal Correctional institution. In the end he served five years in a few months. I think the kids were angry with me for a long time for doing that last deal. Well, I had kids and first aid, accept responsibility. Are we saw myself as a victim because of the way things fell apart after Tom? I did, except that it does that I screwed up and then I never should have done and been involved at. Move in the, if you could go back to that time, when you were young with a Wall Street job all above board, Would you do anything differently. The only thing that I would do differently. Yes, I wouldn't do that last deal after got out of prison.

He moved back to Northern California and he's gone back. Who is original career as an investment advisor? Do you ever do something or say something and or thing something and realize that or just like my father, I think the thing I I think about most. I think that still now, one of the things I still work through is knee jerk reaction. When, when things are tough of, I could just jump on a plane and go, and that would make everything. Okay and that's it. That's a complicated, because, obviously, that didn't make everything. Ok, when we were younger and all reality, Datcher done his time straight off the bat, and that was the most sensible thing to do. And yet this is part of me when things are part that wants to

on a plane and disappear, Criminalist produced by Lawrence Board, Needy Wilson and me audio mix by Rob buyers. Matilda Felino is our intern. Julian Alexander makes original illustrations for each episode of criminal. You can see them at this is criminal dot com and we're on Facebook and twitter at criminal show. If you want to know more about Tyler Weatherall's life and her father, you can read her book. It's called no way home criminal is recorded in the studios North Carolina public Radio, W Unc were proud. Member of radiotopia from Prx o'clock, and have the best podcasts around and we're excited. Tell you about the latest from radiotopia showcase, the great God of depression.

Greek out of depression tells the story of a literary genius, a brain scientist and their shared quest to understand the secrets of creativity. Here I was at ten years ago sort of at the height of my so called career. I was you know, success I'd made money. I was at critical acclaim still with all of that. I felt like an absolute loaf. Some complete worthless object, who hadn't done anything and whose entire trajectory of my life had had gone up and then was plunged down into absolute. Zero pit go listen to answer for providing their ad serving platform to radiotopia, I'm Phoebe Judge This criminal

radio to hi Phoebe. For the past four years, we've been part of radio topia, a collective of podcast, independently owned and run we're joined in this network by some of our favorite podcast at their shows like kitchen sisters present and ninety nine percent invisible, but read your topia isn't just about the shows that make up the network. It's about the community of listeners who make it all up and this year for annual fundraiser. We want to do something new, we're asking you to help design a new radio topia coin, the coin for

launch from ninety nine percent, invisible in two thousand fifteen, then in two thousand sixteen we created one to say thank you to those who support the entire network, but we always meet them. We decided what they look like. They were gift from us to you. Now we want you to choose to show that you, just like us or part of the radio to be a family, good radio, Topia, DOT, FM, Slash, vote right now and pick your favorite. That's radio topia dot FM slash vote thanks very much.