« Dan Carlin's Hardcore History

Show 63 - Supernova in the East II

2019-01-12 | 🔗
Deep themes run through this show, with allegations of Japanese war crimes and atrocities in China at the start leading to eerily familiar, almost modern questions over how the world should respond. And then Dec 7, 1941 arrives...
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Today's show is sponsored by audible, get your first audio book when you start a thirty day trial. Just visit, audible, dot, com, Slash Carlin dot, com, Slash Carlin or Text Carlin. Two five hundred five hundred to get started and listen for a change. What you're about to hear is part two of a multi part series on the wars, in Asia and the Pacific involving the imperial japanese empire and many other countries hours if you enjoy context and don't want to get too frustrated with me. Referring back to things we talked about earlier, please feel free to listen to part one catch up. You don't care about those things, of course, or if you've already heard part one well, please feel free to continue and hopefully enjoy part two of supernova in the east
Its history, its hard core history,. Why didn't out of Hitler and the Nazis broadcast news and updates of what they were doing as part of the final solution. While it was going on we, why didn't they announced to the world through the Joseph Goebbels propaganda, ministry that we set up these industrial facilities, but will work people to death first, if there is strong and plain listen. Last month we killed a hundred thousand more these people and won't stop till they're all gone. Why didn't they do that? Why didn't Stalin get up there and yell and shake his finger
threaten the gulags and then explain what the gulags archipelago the whole system, wise, starving, to death working to death as part of a re education campaign all you have to do is leave the country and come back for us to be suspicious enough that you ve been corrupted to send you away. I mean what any there and say this is: what's gonna happen to you? If you don't stay and no one emitted, it right. Why didn t Khmer Rouge take photographs as they wiped out the intellectual class of Cambodia because they thought people with glasses were intellectuals in the intellectuals were threat to their new world that they were creating where he was going to go sit back on the land again, why are there photos of that go check out the killing fields? You know what you'll find artwork Why didn't they take photos full color blow them up and put him all around the town and send under the foreign media outlets too?.
That's what the syrian king would have done back in the iron age, get a guy like Sonata Rib a place like Babylon, and then he's gonna make sure everyone knows about it in detail now. A good history. Rain of that area will point out that a lot of what the Assyrians carved into stone, including their version of photos, right artwork with commentary and statements by the king lot of that stuff, was a court style after a while? In other words, it was whatever one would expect why you still see corruption fashions in the new kingdom. It looked eagerly familiar like Gibson fashions from the old kingdom there's a style that becomes these style. You use But what does it say about? You? Ve style you use is to announce. The atrocities that you commit and, as closest possible, replicate them on the walls of your waiting room in
embassy is while people wait. Talk to the assyrian ruler. I mean Sonata rib, destroyed Babylon and wrote about it hears what the scribes record. The words of Seneca re being again, this is a courts I also but style, Sonata Ribs. Of his levelling of one of the great city may be the greatest city of all time. If you started a top one hundred lives Babylon and he levelled Babylon in the six hundred BC. I e by the way court Like the oncoming of a storm I broke loose and overwhelmed like a hurricane with their corpses, I fill city squares, the city and its houses from its foundations to its top I destroyed. I devastated I burned with
Ere the wall and outer wall, temples and gods Temple towers a brick and earth, as many as there were, I raised in dump them into the erotic canal through the midst of that city, Doug Canals I flooded site with water and the very foundations thereof I destroyed, I made its destruction more complete than that by a flood that indeed to come on the side of that city and its temples in its gods might not be remembered. I completely, I did it out with floods of water and made it like a meadow end quote all those later kings were probably trying to emulate the bad ass of em, all Ashur Natsir PAL, the second from an old couple centuries before that time. Nonetheless, to appreciate the Assyrians for owning it and using at their foreign policy was based on scared, the hell out of people, then you more
Ribeiro on the best way to do that was to punish anyone who did rebelled horribly now that one more the style of the times in the iron age, though one could see that not playing particularly well in the twentieth century. But then, let's ask why, if we'll make a list of all the genocide an attempt to genocides atrocities war crimes and all these things we know that would fall broadly under them. Heading and involve enough people to sort of make a list of the twentieth, twenty four centuries. How many of the let's just call them accused perpetrators of these acts admit to it on it. And if they do, how many them do so in an unqualified way, because sometimes the evidence is so overwhelming that even deniers, can't figure out how to win allowed of the facts, so the
start rationalizing and they'll say, while the numbers are inflated or there is mitigating circumstances or what have you end? Here's what makes life so complicated. Sometimes there right, if you At the history of the twentieth century, you will note that we start off relatively quickly with some of the more famous agenda, your attempted genocides or legit attempted genocides in history, and we keep going from there and we have spent more than a hundred years now as a global society, trying to codify rules and laws and courts of adjudication and systems and organisations to help create rules about properties and war and genocides and killings and crimes against humanity. Right you, you could create a timeline. Me start. You can start before the Hague conventions and things like that. But but you go all the way through. You know that the League of Nations creation, you can get to the
nodded nations creation. You can get to the neurons organ Tokyo trials. Theirs I mean, as all these sorts of things, and now we have. This extends body. In many of these global organizations created enlarge in reaction to horrible atrocities and genocides and things that must never happen again and yet, let me ask you what you think would happen If it happened again in the week, spent an enormous amount of time in human effort on an unofficial task to cause right. Let's never have a I no solution, for example, happen again, but what of it happened tomorrow and, of course, he's gonna, be some sort of analogy that works. We have to imagine it happens in a in a powerful state it happens in Albania, there'll be no problem. The bombing was startling soon afterwards and they'll be an invasion. If it involves, if this crime against humanity involves an important ethnic group that in many countries, so that many countries have an interest in this, a jewish folks
an example of that. Then it's going to be different kind of situation. If we're talking about people that almost nobody really knows about in some far away place and there being persecuted by a powerful state, the ramifications of confronting it would not be like Albania you'd be committing to some major stuff. Do you think we do anything different today? If holocaust number two starts tomorrow,. If it's China or russia- apologies about those nations, but I mean they're the obvious powerful choices: if I'm not gonna she's, my own state, if they see our children, a million or two million of some unpopular minority there that most of us in the rest of the world dont know a lot about. I dont have A whole lot of dog in that fight, How well are all these wonderful organizations that we have created over more than a hundred years Well, is this mechanism going to click into place and function to stop something like that? The people at the time get quite a bit of blame for not doing more to stop the Holocaust or a trust.
These that happened all throughout the second World war on many major France, but I think we sometimes forget how hard it is. To do that we have many more mechanisms and tools at our disposal, created in many cases, specific for this purpose that I still think and remember, I'm not I'm not cautiously option mystic personality was I'm cautiously pessimistic and not all hard core, cynical and pessimistic, but I'm mildly both, and I I think, if the state powerful enough, we could have in the weaker version of the final solution happen over them. Year. And the world kind of sit around and look at each other. Most of the time going. You know it's us from sanctions may be I mean. What should we do? I bring that up because we're come into a pardon, the story where its Call it a milestone or a potential milestone on that time line the begins, maybe you could say in the twentieth century keeps going to now concerning
These kinds of events, and I mean look at your newspaper today. We still figured out how to deal with this. We just had some problems in the Middle EAST where everybody was going and how do we in the humanitarian crisis. We had it when the former Yugoslavia broke up. You had a genocide in Rwanda, go on everybody looking at each other thinking to themselves wha. What do we need to do here? Meanwhile? you know the killings are every day and everybody. So deliberating everybody's got to consider their own personal country straight jack interest in a real policy questions at all understandable, but a boil how did the same thing if this is eighteen, forty three, and this is how we're behaving more Julie, people then gypsies and homosexuals and polish people and priests are dying every day and yet, what's a responsible speed, and watch a responsible level of force. We can expect nation states to employ in situations like this, so as we ask ourselves that, question and realise that the people in them in the pre
Second World war era had less in the way of tools and less in the way of structure and probably less in the way of leverage. I mean we're talking nuclear weapons now which changed again completely and they are confronted with a sigh, of the situation and by the way this is one we still deal with today, and it is still controversial and that's why I brought up the point about denial or minimization or rationalization when it comes to questions of atrocities. When last we spoke, we were talking about the battle of Shanghai, a little known battle by the way in the west. But as participants like to point out by the time, it's dead, and he went on like three months somethin like that you as many dead on the chinese side as either side kind of all. Little ass, I think, but but at the battle of radon in the first World WAR, a historically nasty battle that went on longer.
The strategy of the battle of Shanghai was influenced by global public opinion or a desire to influence global public opinion Shanghai, and the Chinese wanted to prove that the Chinese could put up a fight against the Japanese and they wanted to send a message to the world that were here. We can resist if you want to help us, it's a worthwhile investment and it's awful and you should help us. There were photographs making into the global media store. These accounts from Westerners Shanghai had quite a lot westerners in it, and so the Chinese through in all their best units stuff that they head. Stockpile for a long time. In other words, they were gonna shoot off all their fireworks. It wants to me the biggest bang, they could make an see if they could attract global attention, while they did so. The ups this? Is they did the downside? This is when it's gone it's gone and when the Japanese after several months of fighting launching
Phoebe US invasion and open up another front on the city of Shanghai. That's the story in terms of resistance in the chinese resistance collapse, they suffered a brazilian casualties, their outer stuff and they stream back, routing and trying to get their act together towards the capital at name. King known aging, the Japanese are close on their heels. And as they chased them an atrocity b in to occur now. Let me back up here because I was fascinated, and yet I got pulled down the rabbit hole reading about the various points of view on what history calls some people called the rape of Nanking. Other people called the name. King incident today in king of Prussia, and the reason there are all these different names is because it very controversial. In fact, it's about his com, reversal as all those other genocides war crimes and atrocities.
You will see on your list if you made a timeline, as I said from the start of the twentieth century, go to the people accused of the crime, And ask them to admit it were asked him to talk about it find a percentage always that will, but most people reflexively get defensive Let's understand this is a human thing unless it is dead just how widespread it is. Every now and then, but regularly you see a new story involving the Japanese, education system stories always the same. The japanese textbooks specifically the history tat. Books are not are whitewash, is the way some along with whitewashing downplaying covering up japanese atrocities during its aggressive period in the second, were worn, pre second world. Era oftentimes? These complaints will come from people who suffered at the hands of japanese aggression, China, the Philippines, the
tyre area around Malaysia, I mean there's a bunch of places that were in the japanese orbit for a time and those are often the people to get angry when japanese atrocities are downplayed The people that are sometimes the most angry are the Africans who fought in that war veterans from Australia, Canada, Great Britain. All these people want the Japanese to confront what they did But here the way I want to portrayed in human terms We have similar textbook issues here in the United States and many other countries due to and they often revolve around history class for middle schoolers and junior high schoolers high schoolers. The arguments are over how your own countries, bad periods, are portrayed and in the United States. We often have these controversies because the now
Do things that happened in the past hour, downplayed or sometimes excised altogether, and the more patriotic good things are played up now, the Japanese will often come back with us. Sort of response. I mean to get political, but both of the right wing extra patriot sides above There is actually have similar views about what they want portrayed trade in their textbooks. They want their people portrayed positively creating a sense of citizenship. Pride in your heritage, all that kind of stuff and appreciation for the things that make your people special I do find it sort of ironic that if you went to the people in my country, they feel that way and asked them about japanese textbooks they definitely want the Japanese, in most cases, to have to confront these sorts of things right. But the real patriots in the United States are pretty aware of of japanese conduct and the second one, war against our troops and others, and they want that shown, but if you then tried to put
you on the other foot and say ok in our own history books. When we're talking about the Vietnam WAR, how much full color photography and witness accounts. Should we devote to something like the meal I massacre was viewed. Nobody meal. I massacre shame nineteen Sixty Vietnam, war, Americans there's went into a hamlet, village and when they came out three hundred to five hundred and fifty villagers women and children were dead rape, turn on. It was very, very nasty very disillusioning, for an act. I can speak from experience from in the ten years. Afterwards is Americans confronted the fact that we were actually just like everyone else, we were not special loan ranger comments. The world in a couple of were wars, rebuild it afterwards, with the Marshall Plan defended during the cold war, I mean we were all those things too, but if you had said to american people
in the thirty or forty years that Americans would do a meal. I type thing. I think they would find it hard to believe. I think what men and combat although you know I've only read it so take this with the grain of sand, but I think what they would say is that in certain situations, things can become very unpredictable and and there is a lack of- strong leadership in those situations they can become deadly. I'd like to draw a distinction between two kinds of atrocities. Here: you saw both kinds in the second World war by the way and try to link the two of them: not only twisted some of the post WAR war crimes trials into knots, but affects us and today, the difference between a top down atrocity of the sort, for example, that Hitler in the Nazis were doing with this and a solution. The kind in assyrian king would do for
a babylonian final solution, a top down order, if the guy in the ground, you're killing people in executing people in committing an atrocity because you were ordered to or the kind that happens of the sort, for example, that the ancient Roman, slash latin historian Tacitus says happened during a roman civil war. The city call Cremona. This was and also he wrote about it and he is almost a contemporary and the story basically goes it story about troops when they get their blood lost up And it reminds us that you know people can be in order to enlarge groups that can come out even in a more pronounced way, made Cremona so terrible is its assent, of a city, which is what the destruction of Babylon was and what the destruction of the city of Nanjing is gonna, be that would be Nan King back in the Second World WAR, its sacking of a city
and Tacitus says These soldiers wanted to sack the city that they were worried that the city would surrender and if it surrendered to their commander, the Roman general within he got the spoil so the army tat the two says, and he was a veteran by way really wanted the city to not surrender, so they could lose it. The city did sir it was a roman city by the way and the citizens in it were roman. The roman army outside the city still wanted to loot the city, so they did for several days. The account is one of the really wicked Accounts in the ancient world, and it's funny, though, because if you took out the particulars it would probably work as a reasonable description of ten thousand sacking of cities in human history, Tacitus wrote about
the destruction of true Mona, a roman city by roman soldiers after surrendering- and he said quote. Forty thousand armed men forced their way into the city. Knife rank nor year saved the victim from an indiscriminate orgy in which rape all needed with murder and murder with rape grew beards and frail old women who had no value is loot were dragged off to raise a laugh, but full grown girl or good, looking lad, who cross their path was pulled this and that in a violent tug of war between the would be captors, a single looter, trailing a horde of money. Your temple offerings of massive gold was often cut to pieces by others who were stronger in their hand they help firebrands, which once they got their spoil away, they wantonly flung into empty houses and rifle temples. There were
diversity of wild desires, different conceptions of what was lawful and nothing barred, Cremona lasted them for days. End quote:. We would be mistaken thinking that this is something particularly roman or particularly ancient there's something that goes on in certain situations- and you can reliably see it again and again in December nineteen, thirty seven, you see it in man, king. Nan king, though, is so much harder to deal with then something like a Cremona or the iron age, destruction of Babylon, because
it's still a white hot, it's incandescent in terms of how passionate and upset and how visceral the argument over it can get people get death, threats regularly or the books I bought for this subject and by the way we post all of the research materials in the show notes on the website for the show's, encourage Youtube by the way special if you like this stuff, some of the main king stuff, is positively Kennedy assassination ask in terms of the minutiae in detail, how big points can often revolver on small little things, no think magic bullet, but lotta people love that stuff in and reading it
one of them great book, the Nanking atrocity, one thousand nine hundred and thirty seven thirty, eight complicating the picture has different scholars. Writing each chapter from a wide range of people, and one of the things that the japanese editor of the book set in the introduction is that several of the contributors that had their lives threatened, some of them face to face for their writings, research, teachings and lectures on this stuff. Don't have a whole lot of people threatening to bash your head in because of your views on for Moana. Do you I'll give you an example of a problem that history fan face is trying to talk about this. If you wanted to make a graph of the range of opinions on what the death toll is in then king in December and onward for months,
on one side of the spectrum. You have the japanese people who fall into the class that are known as the deniers, who consider everything that we talk about here to be an illusion: com, caused by a combination of contemporary reward time. Propaganda and a lot of marxist stuff, especially by leftist japanese marxist teachers, were polluting the minds of their own children. I mean it's a super patriot point of view with a tinge of conspiracy that would probably resonate in a bunch of different countries with the same group of people. They are probably all countries. Actually we said in the earlier conversation that, like the jewish folks this phrase was originally applied to? The Japanese are really intense there, like em, buddy else? Only more saw, or just like anybody else, only morceau- and I think you see in the passions here too, when people get so upset about
you know, besmirching the reputation of the imperial japanese Army and the country they get angry, as patriots will you, especially if they dont think its deserved, and the people on one side of the spectrum here will claim that maybe forty five people died in His name king thing in those may have been justified one way or another. On the far opposite end of the scale and the spectrum. You have chinese historians and me chinese official government line they ve actually carved a number. Their number into a rock I saw picture of it. It's a little like you know, proverbially carving it into stone. I guess that is what they're doing, and the attempt is to create it's pretty clear a number that has the same sort of intellectual residence with the global population that the six million number has for the Holocaust mean
everybody knows: six billion, ok, where'd you come up with. That number could about six million a wandering it. Nobody, no shrank, five million seven million, but you with a nice round number, and eventually people go oh yeah, the holocaust about it. Many people die there. The Chinese are trying to do this. With the Nan King atrocity. And the number the Dave settled on a three hundred thousand dead, three hundred thousand dead. And there are chinese historians and, let's acknowledge your, maybe not operating with complete freedom in terms of being able to follow the historical evidence wherever it takes them there are chinese historians will bumped that number up considerably? The three hundred and fifty thousand range is not unheard of at all. If you want to go to crazy town and find the very end of the spectrum, what's the largest number you ve ever seen what the insane are some five hundred thousand, I saw a half million once not credible, but that's what I saw
Forty five, not credible either on the other hand, but now on that scale, are a bunch of different gradients of peoples and their views on this subject. That's why it's really difficult to talk about, because it's not just and it didn't have and yes, it did thing, it's well sure it did, but it only happened here or yes, it did, but it only happened to these people. It's too, I mean The lawyer early break down over the geographical boundaries, where some who dies in this mean a quadrant counts. As a Nan King atrocity casualty as someone who dies outside that quadrant doesn't mean it get silly like that. The chinese history, in point out and supposedly This is why China didn't make a huge deal specifically over the Nan kings situation in the first few decades after the war was because This was more par for the course then not and part of the you get. Some of these really large number counts. The chinese historian sometimes include these
soldiers from the battle of Shanghai who died in part because the japanese troops took their surrender or who captured them or who found the moon did on the battlefield executed them there. This is another part of the gradient in the discussion right. Who do you count if you are talking about soldiers? Do they count in the Ets osity. Well, what? If you killed him after they surrendered? As I said, a bunch of different people have different opinions along the spectrum Now, if you're looking for a mid range to try to get sort of It'll ballast. On this question, a lot of the mainstream mainstream historians will range from like a hundred thousand dead, two two hundred and fifty thousand dead, and that is a huge number, no matter which it is the the question that always comes up in a case like this in this is connected to the knots situation in Europe, but is who's responsible? Where does the responsibility lie? Because
will often hear these situations and sometimes it's valid compared to the sacking of Cremona, where you have troops your loss of additional control, maybe on the part of the leaders or a callous disregard for the plight of people in that year lower level troops were despoiling whatever. It might be here that some people make the case that all of this is premeditated might well have been nazi stuff, and once again, we get divided into separating soldiers from civilians, but there's an interesting little bridge between the two and that's soldiers who dressed up as civilians. Now before we get into this story. You entitled to know how I come to my thinking and, if anything, my own by us to me my normal approaches to put myself in other people's viewpoints to try to see their respect.
But trying to see the perspective of the side that thinks there's forty five or a hundred or two hundred deaths here in their explain away. A bullet feels like trying to be a defender of a holocaust denier. It's a really difficult position for me to put myself in, like. I think you should point it out. If I had to have a very hard time putting myself, even if you were in debating classes, you have to take. Perspective and defend it. I am usually open minded enough to keep up. A doubt open, though, depending on the other circumstances, involve, for example, if This was a very unusual incident in. Second sign of japanese war or the Second World WAR. I think I'd be inclined to say, listen, wartime propaganda. I mean those people who have a point problem is? Is that the job
knees, army and navy to a degree with the army. Certainly is a repeat offender in this war, but the sino, japanese one and the second a war that, by the way by nineteen thirty, seven lot of people think the Second World WAR has started. So it depends lotta people when I was a kid, always started. The invasion of Poland, but since then that The pain has shifted inside you know really one thousand nine hundred and thirty seven, this the Japanese are in World WAR Ii. The other powers just aren't in yet themselves to chinese and Japanese are starting the Second World WAR, and in this case the Japanese will behave toward the chinese atrocious Lee and you have to really right off a ton of evidence, including your own soldiers and commanders diaries. If you want to explain it away, you also have to deal. With the remembrances of combat veterans from pretty much
every power that fought the Japanese in the Second World WAR, where a troll. This behaviour, and a sir brutal level of conduct was always remarked upon an that's after you fact about racism, hate of the enemy, killed your bodies and all that stuff I mean, there's a ton of evidence and the queen genes over why in what's going on here, have been ongoing and they sort of in a small Norway parallel the one's going on after the Second World WAR with the Nazis. We had things like the pilgrim experiment. All these other things were. People were trying to figure out, listen now. How do you get people to turn off their moral compass? Could we all be Nazis and it was trying to figure out motivations and how you you do that I mean in the second a war and afterwards and much remember, the japanese public knew very little of this stuff, although some of the stuff that they didn't oh and sort of celebrate, is once again a little weird by western standards, for example. Theirs famous incident Nanking were two soldiers were having, supposedly
since in the japanese news media a contest a chinese head, shopping contest and the tally was being kept. Poor regularly in the newspaper. You know this this guy's up to seventy five now all but three heads today by the other guy and he takes the lead and he was always used as evidence of your looking for a site. And that this brutality happen, while my good as they were celebrating and Japan's newspapers turns out most means mainstream schools me, but you know what I mean historians and I've been reading, suggested tat, never happened and that it was a figment of presses desire to whip up an interesting story. They got people reading which it did. It does, of course, beg the question about an audience who thought that that was worth celebrating, but there have been speculations forever. That the early ones during the war were always in a racist and cultural with. This is just how the Japanese are.
Then there are a lot of interesting ones, including ones from Japan, and just to give you an idea of one of them. We'll talk about the brutality in the japanese army, where apparently being punished in the face hard with a clue. Always faced by your superior, was not uncommon and there's plenty of reports about people having to commit executions or the arm. The killing of p o w as part of a sort of blood in you the old fashioned idea. Once you get a lot of the things the Japanese we're gonna be in trouble for in the Second World war. Are things that people didn't you? bad an eyelash five hundred years ago about, in fact, five years ago. They would have known it ever happened outside of very close geographical area. That's another thing: it's different about Nan King there's, telegraphs there there's embassies, there's westerners! There's? U S in British out ships in the Yangtse River.
The real world outside this area is going to hear about what's happening inside man, king and they're, going to hear about it. While it's going on They thoroughly modern situation that we have seen over and over again sense where there will be some terrible atrocity cry this humanitarian disaster genocide, war I'm going on somewhere in the world and unfolding in real time and all the great powers, under the gun. At that point, when everybody says goodness something has to be done or more people will die, but the world global GEO. Political powers. Rarely react at speed on these kind of things, but been a little bit of an unsolvable problem? You You didn't Nanking for sure, because what's gonna happen, there will unfold over a period of weeks and the world will be put into a moral quandary over what to do so. Picking up this
after the battle of Shanghai, the choice, these forces retreat toward the capital Nan Jane Nan King, a hundred forty Fifty miles west of Shanghai and during the treat. The Japanese led elements are trying just around the Chinese. So this is a a flight with the Japanese in hot pursuit. There are also civilians along the path their aircraft stir thing and bombing the roads, you this sense of chaos. And Bedlam claustrophobia, panic and I've seen em. You seem war footage since that time that you really get a sense and the camera gives you a very good sense of a combination of things that must have been on these people to the fluidity of the situation right, everything is moving quickly and you're in the middle of it, and also a complete lack of knowledge. About, what's going on outside your feel, division or whatever the person? Next, you can say.
The combination of those two things is panic. Inducing. So imagine a sort of a bedlam as these Is this line of humanity pursued by the japanese run toward Nan King, the japanese I've close on their heels and mostly surround the city and on December night there out This walled city of Nanking, it looks like a sort of a european medieval city. Ending surrender. There is a chinese general in command of a hastily thrown together. But relatively you know, it's China large number of soldiers awesome Green, some of them old and reservist. Some of them The battle that just was over in Shanghai and they're, not fair, and have their weapons. There may be defeatist. I mean it's. It's it's a bit of a motley crew, but Gonna defend the city so for four days they hold out before that general order a retreat Healy
if the government leaves- and you have now a city with hundreds of thousands of people, including refugees, that's being bombed and now governmental services or any one in charge. The Japanese have yet to take over and it's one of the great stories by the way of this city's plight, and that's that there were a group of Westerners in the city most most of the western ran away from the japanese army came, but but a bunch of different people, businessmen and others- humanitarians doctors staid, and they were there to take care of all these people, but when that fell into their lap, they stepped up to do it.
There's a little ironic twist to the story to when they recently made a movie out of. Basically, I almost playing on that twist and it's that the guy that was sort of elected by this ad hoc group to be the leader was a nazi. An ardent nazi as the sources describe him. A business man, John Rubber, Part of the reason he gets, the gig is because the japanese government and the nazi german government have been moving closer together. Maybe he has a little bit more pole with the Japanese are just about to take over the city that may be a british or american or and gives a danish guy Maybe they don't have as much pull so this guy gets the gig and the movie. I saw the tagline you know of the of the press. You- and I think it said something like you. Do he saved you a hundred and fifty thousand lives, and you see scenes of him with her. Chinese refugees at he hides them from aircraft. A giant swastika flags of their sort of that. That playing with the idea that here,
have the evil Nazis and yet there's a good person mixed in with a juxtaposition that you can hang a whole movie theme on I don't know about two hundred and fifty thousand lives in terms of the number. I do know that this is twenty or thirty people there's women in the group, doctors. Misters businessmen they save time of people and its in large part because of the documents that they stand. Or the information that they kept track of, that we have lot of these accounts and when I wanted to spend three hours on it, I was going to go through all of the letters. Let me encourage you to get another book if you're interested in this and it's one of the few I've ever read. That should be dry as a bone, but it's actually in its own way: terrifying, because it's it's chronological primary source documents, so the cables and the telegrams and the letters and the pleas from
these people are Robbie and all these people who make up the net King international safety zone. Folks, as it's called, and you can read every day, these letters get more beseeching, more terrified, more outraged, as situation, descends into monsters, chaos on December, thirteenth, Japanese, enter Nan King, There is a letter from John Robbie saying. Thank you so much for not shelling our little international safety zone that we ve created, which, by the way as nothing more than a part of the city blocked off and on the sides, the reach where the border as they put international flags. I think it was December. First the name. King mayor, before fleeing the city, tells all the civilians to run into the safety zone could, though, be safe there, which allows the Japanese then say that anybody who is not in the safety zone is ipso facto
a guy and what begins to happen right away. Is the japanese start searching for chinese soldiers because there is, as we said, a lot of them there? Another part of the atrocity here is, if you are a defender basically of the japanese army, in this case too you count the killing of chinese soldiers as a war, crime. Raymond. Officially, there's no question, but that allows some people today virtue and say: well we admit that these people who died were soldiers I deny the civilian side of this This case, what happens is there's a river, it's the Yang, see that runs behind Nan King and, if you look at it water for chinese troops to get out of Nanking get away from the oncoming Japanese, they would have to cross the river so to go over more chinese side, and he going normally a problem, but of course you know they were trying to create a defensive zone to thwart the Japanese. Are they been blown up, the bridges in everything that would allow the chinese
to get away to, and now they have to say there are these harrowing stories of chinese troops just at the river bank waiting you, thousands and thousands of people waiting for one little boat to could carry three people are like a canoe across the river and the companies are on the way and if there's one group of people that knows that the Japanese are not taking chinese prisoners, its chinese soldiers. So this sense of panic is bubble, and let me turn to some of the sources now and I have a wide mix of them: and my apologies, as I said, I'd like to do three hours and I'd like to just read the documents to you because, if there are several there, like police blotter reports where they're trying to tell the japanese commander at this hour, this woman was raped over here and the japanese soldiers builder sugar. I mean it's literally like police reports, but it's it's all I could think of. When I was eating. It is how unusual was to have something like this and if you
I've had a similar document. It would apply equally well to the sack of Carthage by the Romans. You know in ancient times I mean This is a modern day account of something you just don't get a whole lot of, but that's happened. A lot of times in history seems woefully out of place and time, though here's the way food. You are a Cura contributor to arm the Nanking atrocity Company, the picture said that the attack on Nan King was out of control from the start, with all sorts of units that glory hungry and wanting to be the first inside the city- and there is a sense of out of control troops such as the battle of Cremona, with that psychology going on so here yet another gradient in the risk instability, spectrum that we ve been talking about. Do you blame Japan for what?
what happened here. No was a bunch of other control troops and in some ways it was a clearer writes about the japanese units finding out on December thirteenth that the Chinese were retreating and leaving and trying to get away and he writes, quote japanese units learned of this retreat on the morning of the thirteenth skirmishes. Broke out in many areas of small groups of chinese troops outside the city now lacking. Of command, desperately tried to slip past advancing japanese forces. Then the surrendering began most of the time these troops still inside man, king rushed to escape helter skelter through the pot Chang Gait, which lead The shock one warfare area from shock, one they hope to cross yangtse by boat, by raft or by clinging desperately to scraps of lumber where they met sadly ran up and down the river bank only to encounter Japanese forces send to cut them off huge.
Of chinese troops became prisoners of war on the Thirteenth M, fourteenth at shock. One move push on China John Gate and the Shanghai Gate, no avenue of escape chinese soldiers lost all will to fight, despite trying to render in droves, most were killed In the past MEL of battle, end quote: he then quotes from the diaries from December thirteen nineteen, thirty seven of two japanese commanders, sixteenth division commander and Thirtieth brigade commander our primary source documents and dumb division, commander, Knocker, Jima, facade his diary rights quote. We see prison is everywhere so many that there's no way we can deal with them. The general Paul c, is except no prisoners, We ended up having to take care of them lots stock and barrel, but they came
In hordes in units of thousands are five thousands, so we couldn't even disarm them late. I heard that the society unit alone dispose of about fifteen hundred accompany commander guarding typing gate. Care of another thirteen hundred and others one thousand, eight thousand clustered at the Sheen Holgate, are still surrendering. We need a really huge, ditch To handle those seven thousand eight thousand, but we can't find one so someone suggested this plan now, quoting someone else's plan d them up into groups of a hundred to two hundred and then lure them to some suitable spot for finishing off end quote Thirtieth Brigade Command Major general society to Ici wrote it, diary on the thirteenth of December- quote the number of a bit and and enemy bodies in our area today was ten thousand plus thousands more if we include Those Chinese whose escape rafts were boats on the yangtse, were sunk by fire from our armoured cars plus p O w, killed by our units are deterred,
I ve been alone must have taken care of over twenty thousand. We finish the mob, unsecured our rear area at about two p m, while regrouping we advanced to the hoping gate later. The enemy surrendered in the thousands, frenzied troops, rebuffing efforts by some carriers to restrain them finished off those p Debbie is one after another, even if they aren't soldiers, for example, medics or priest, men would yell the whole damn lot. After recalling the past ten days, a bloody fighting in which so many buddies had shed so much blood end quote right there. You see another one of those lines that some people take, which is the same. You tried to restrain them, but you don't, their bodies were killed and they were Standing really upset enough to commit atrocities, there's halls what kind of evidence to show that there was a taken up
his nurse policy distorting Herbert P books in his book on Hirohito is Pulitzer Prize winning Book on Hirohito rights. This quote there were no orders to rape in quotes: Nan King, nor did imperial headquarters ever order, the total extermination of the enemy as the ultimate goal of the Nanking encirclement campaign standing to take. No prisoners did exist, however, and once name King fell. Japanese soldiers began to execute en masse military prisoners of war and unarmed deserters who had surrendered. They also on an unprecedented, an unplanned rampage of arson, pillage, murder and rape. The result slaughter continued in the city and its six adjacent rural villages for three months and far, exceeded earlier atrocities committed during the battle of Shanghai and along the escape routes to Nan King general. The GMO sixteenth division in just its first day in the capital, killed approximately
thirty thousand chinese prisoners of war and fleeing soldiers end quote: there are charges, these orders to kill all prisoners come from the highest up on the scene which, by the thirteenth, I believe, is the emperor Hirohito uncle. There will be An execution were to you, after the war, for what goes on in this city, but trying to figure out who is response. Before. It has been an ongoing part of the debate. How high up the food chain do you blame this? what it really seems to be, as this combination of two things, a ordered war crime from western? back to the killing of surrendering or captured p w, because after all you go, Get the Soviet Union and the number of prisoners that fell into german hands after the June. One thousand nine hundred and forty one invasion there and you'll. Never have these giant castle schlacht these cauldron battles and they capture two hundred and fifty thousand people at a time any of these,
grass of huge crowds of people are long column, stretching off into the distance, kicking up tons of dust and then try figure out. How do we or do we barbed wire these people in a pan and keep him, and then how do we feed them? It has he any that in this part of the war between China and Japan, because it had taken prisoner and nobody knows that better than the chinese troops. So this sense, of panic. That's going on in the city, I was trying to given analogy It's a little like getting hundred thousand or more people in the soccer stadium and then having somebody tell you over the public address speaker that the doors out have been barred an armed gunmen are coming in to kill all hundred or a hundred and fifty thousand people in the stadium me. What is it?
mood like then well, if it's panic stricken. That would be understandable, and this is when incidents begin happening in the story that become a sort of a hinge, mind. If we were talking about communicable diseases or an epidemic, this is when he jumped species from merely affecting soldiers and now affecting the civilians, because in their panic and, quite understandably so blind he's chinese troops and undetermined number of these chinese troops are going to throw off uniforms and throw their weapons away and dress in any civilian clothing. They can find them may be aided in this by the population, because, after all, this The chinese city- and these are true these troops, but the japanese start looking for chinese troops that have thrown away their uniforms and addressed a civilians and they start picking
people out of crowds, many of whom are civilians and executing them. And then you have the part of the story that just takes this too unbelievable crazy levels, which is what starts to happen to the civilians, and this is looks like Cremona, because you have and it starts. If you read the primary source mature is it starts on the thirteenth in you start to get these these requests? Can you please put more milk, Mary police officers out on the streets, because the soldiers are out of control them, in thing there on a control with a low there's lot, alluding is rate and its crazy. To read, as I said, I want to do three hours on this interest. Go go from one police blogger account to another, because it gives you a real time in a way sense of. What's going on all over the union, International Safety zone where they we're getting more than a thousand reports of rapes a night as one of the humanity it's working there said the Japanese have turned the internet
safety zone into a public house, meaning a whorehouse, and they were often killing the women that they raped. It's it's worth, giving an account from the victims here, the Chinese I'd and in one of the books that I have Nanking, nineteen, thirty seven memory and healing they have age these historic, whose giving? What is? I guess it's the right? nice chinese view this thing and he pulls no punches want you to know how nasty it got. And a person who says they're only forty five people who died. This whole incident would call the Chinese a liar or their government a bunch of people just wanting to to hold this over Japan's head. But here's what chinese? rain Sunshine way since happened in their king court in general. The massacre itself can be divided into two types of killings, MA killings and sporadic killing in It's a mass killing ranged from the murder of ten to twenty two, the slaughter of tens of thousands of people with the greatest
in any one incident reaching more than fifty thousand sporadic killing included. There worrying numbers of three to eight people, among them killings. In addition to those who died by the sword and firing squad, others were burned buried alive or drowned several after being hope with Gasolene, were set on fire by gunshot, causing the wounded person to lie covered in flames rolling and rising on the ground until finally dying a miserable death individual sporadic acts of torture and killing included splitting gutting slice piercing alive and dog biting somewhere and burned with acid and then left burning all over others, were tortured to death, to Japan Lieutenants amused themselves by having a killing contest, the first one to reach a you killed won. The game then raise the limit to a hundred and fifty in addition to killing, he writes the name: King Massacre also involved rape, arson theft and other violent crimes. The japanese, true
to attack, Nanking raped tens of thousands of chinese women, many of whom Where then murdered end quote any time. I find myself thinking. That those numbers that the chinese historians give our way to large area all that, according to Tacitus, the roman legions areas completely picked Cremona Clean in four days. Nan king is going to continue for months. How much evil can you do in a time frame like that? And, admittedly, there not ribbon Nan
the part with quite the efficiency or rapacity is the Romans were ripping Cremona apart. But if you got months to do it, I imagine it's going to be pretty thorough. Now, if you say that we have spent too much time focusing on a single atrocity when we're talking about a conflict, that's going to go on to nineteen forty five, I would agree. Except that we're not going to spend a lot of time, necessarily on all the atrocities between now and the end of the war that deserve attention. What's more, you look at the raw death totals that the Chinese are going to suffer between one thousand nine hundred and thirty seven, and one thousand nine hundred and forty five alone, and if you include the end Causes of death because of the war things like family disease, your numbers get to the fifteen and twenty million people levels you wanna go just with directly caused by violence.
It gets down to maybe twelve million in a lot of sources, twelve million two thirds of which, by the way, are civilian where their stories most of those people die individually or suffering anonymity, or are killed in small out of the way villages or hamlets who speaks for them. Let's let the relatively and comparatively well attested to situation in NAM. King allegations, if you deny air but still well, attested to Alex actions in the worst case scenario. Let's let those speak for all those are the people who stories didn't make it into the history books. The second reason to focus perhaps inordinately on an atrocity like Nan King, is that it's one of a bunch of pre war atrocities, and these will continue by the way during
The conflict as well that seem to set up this era where you have these brutal totalitarian type armies, at least the way the western liberal democracies. Look at these things. That sea to be on the march and they seem to be the bad guys in the story. Now bad guys is an interesting thing to ponder because in most wars, especially all the recent ones where you can get into the newspaper accounts and stuff like that, pretty cool
men to portray ones adversary in almost apocalyptic Lee evil terms. In the first World WAR, the Germans were called the Huns because hands were about the nastiest thing. British propaganda and others could think of in terms of slapping a label on them and they helped out all they could on the german side by doing things that have been named, the rape of Belgium and stuff at the time shocking, the genteel nineteenth century sensibilities of the age. Let the records show how exponential that can grow in a mere generation, because the outrage over the rape of Belgium involved about six thousand people killed directly may be those the modern numbers, and we have already talked about what the numbers are in China. It's worth pointing out that if you take standard numbers for both were wars and compare them,
look at the difference in the ratio of civilian military casualties in the first World war standard number you get for soldiers killed about ten million people, but seven million civilians in that war, its estimated in the Second World WAR, more like twenty to twenty five million military deaths. More like thirty five to sixty million civilian deaths, so several Times more civilian deaths in the Second World WAR, lass civilian deaths in the first, and that's the part that by the standards of most war crimes or just
Individual perception makes the second World WAR so much more atrocious. A lot of people are willing to forgive all sorts of nastiness if it's done two soldiers, women, children, old people, the infirm, the sick, the noncombatants, it's much more harrowing in shocking when their killed and here's the problem with the good and evil narrative. Do you think that the japanese textbooks are teaching their kids that they were on the evil side of this war? The the western democratic textbooks tend to frame the japanese side of this. Obviously, the Germans are sore on, but the japanese These are one of the powers that work with sore on the horizon, dream the eastern there's. One of those people want the reasons that countries like China have problems, Japan's textbook is in their minds. They are not confronting this fact. The wait a minute. Let's acknowledge you were the evil side of this war
good enables a strange thing, though, isn't it I had to think about this for a while, because who says a particular behaviour is evil. You go talk to Genghis Khan, about good and evil, all in the thirteenth century, from the Mongol point of view, and he may have a going to guess, he has a different interpretation of what constitutes one of the other right. This is a perception thing if the Nazis had somehow won the war and we were all having our concepts of good and evil framed under that regime. How different do conduct, for example, that the very marked carried out on Hitler's orders in the east after the invaded the soviet union- and it was this- you know- no holds barred all laws thrown out the window kind of conflict. How different does that? Look? You think the Germans or the Nazis, because it might be a PAN Nordic sort of empire. Do you
think they frame that and good and evil terms, and if they do do you think they're frame, their side as evil. The perception thing is hard to get past. Isn't it because from the prospect the above someone who grew up in what the post war history books always called the great world democracies, the western och receive you have concentration camps that are being used as Genocide factory assembly lines you pretty much by our value system, steak that where you are on the good evil side of the divide, pretty clearly, the Japanese had something that reminds you of some of the Nazi medical Science put that in parentheses or quotes on their unit seven hundred and thirty one. It was called in Manchuria in northern China that conducted experiments on humans and vivisections, and you know infected fleas with bubonic plague and then dropped
by air over chinese cities and recorded the data evil stuff, like that from our western liberal enlightenment era, based value system, that's unrepented, Lee evil. Now, if you take yourself out of those shoes, though I went and read the arguments as anyone should that the people who defend other points of view on this make usually, if they dont just deny the infirmary not right as the deniers of the NOME King atrocity or of the holocaust? Do they will say? Yes, but yes, we did these things and people are terrible, but you did terrible things to things that are often not admitted to or accepted by the liberal, democratic, post enlightenment cited this thing, for example strategic bombing. You talk to people in Japan or in Germany who lived there
reality of their cities being bombed by sometimes hundreds of aircraft are sometimes Ma. The whole time, sometimes with atomic bombs and they have an interesting perspective on it? I ll never forget one of them saying to me the same result, has been achieved. The old fashioned way. If you'd come in here and done with bayonets, the functional equivalent of what you did with bombs from a distance. How does it look then hard to get over the idea? It looks a little like man, king? Doesn't it. Here's the thing you gotta, someone on the british and the things, though that were the receiving end of the blitz thee loved to offers bombing of London and Britain instead of saying yes, that's how we fell to you'll, often hear them say in a tough. You started it. What you got back was reaping what you sewed that's an interesting argument in kind of understandable, inhuman
Here's the problem. There has always been an implication that the people that are being bombed somehow deserve it We try to remind myself if my country ever got into a war with someone else, I got bombed by them What I somehow think I deserved it because of the role I played in supporting my country's policies or supporting my country, or would I think that I was just a person caught in the game of history that I had little control over what really happened and that there is really no good excuse for these bombs to fall on me. The other argument you will sometimes get sometimes from other asian people, sometimes other asian people who were also victims of the Japanese. Is there bring in the question of colonialism. And they will say something like sure the western democracies were on their good behaviour and did relatively well in terms of controlling the troops behaving well militarily,
beekeeping during this conflict, but look at the situation after the conflict and More importantly, look at the situation beforehand with century of colonialism. Add up all that stuff in all those evils and put them, the balanced scale to show the Japanese were terrible, but let's not pretend they were only talking about the second World WAR here were more adding up who's been terrible to whom, when this is about walking a mile in the other person's moccasins in it's important to consider those points it is worth pointing out and many here in the West would that the terrible things done as part of the effort to win the second
a war comes after these sorts of incidents that were discussing here and may be are necessary because of the kind of incidents were talking about here. That's why we spend so much time on this Nan King atrocity, because it's hardly the only thing going on. This would be an appropriate time to zoom out of this worry here keep one part of your peripheral vision always on China, though, because the japanese biggest fear of God bogged down in an endless war in China is going to come. True, we compared to an addiction earlier. There are fully addicted I know how to get out and the more they conquer the worst there too bizarre when the atomic bombs are dry At the end of the war, the Japanese are still bogged down in China. I have this weird, upside down backwards, Mirror image, funhouse, sort of view of the
strategic situation facing the Japanese in China. It's like this. Your turn around the United States strategic dilemma. In the Vietnam WAR. Need there, you this giant continental power, the? U S, boy down and unable to extricate itself with any sort he's terms they can live with in a place. What would you say roughly just real vaguely the size of something like California, the Japanese? in the chinese version of this, they are more the size of California and their bogged down in a guerrilla war, and not always a guerrilla war in a today the land mass, the size of the? U s the first thing thinking about. If I'm in the japanese leadership is, I don't want any more trouble with any one else. I'm busy and the Japanese will continue to conquer city after she. After say, they will control the railway lines to connect these cities, the roads, the connect, these cities and
chinese, can just keep moving their capital as far away as they need to go to be out of the Japanese in a range of the bombs. Although they do fall fall on the chinese capital from time to time and the countryside is infested with nationalist army. Is communist armies guerrillas in search? Warlord troops bandits and there will be hungry, a thousand usually close to a million Japanese. Group, some of their best forces to all requiring supplies all the time in this theatre, For the entire war, it must be said. We have to zoom out at this point in the story, because events elsewhere in the world are going to have more of an effect on happens in this part of the world than anything happening in this part of the world. I mean, for example, as as the Europeans began to slide towards the Second World war. The Japanese are watching and as that war breaks out and gets under way
they're paying attention to the results in reacting accordingly, in other words, like many powers, trying to read the lay of the land and as the sex, where war will break out the lay of the land gonna change quickly, tough, to know which horse bet on when things are so fluid nineteen thirties, as we should point out, and it is important to understand the context- is a pretty crappy decade for most countries. It is in the great depths of the great depression and it is hard to exaggerate what that means me. People think of economic hard times, but it opens the door to all sorts of political instability and problems on every front.
And so people, like Franklin, Roosevelt in the United States and leaders everywhere, had their hands full trying to pull out of this economic knows dive. Nobody was prepared to spend a lot of money or a lot of political capital or asked country, to give some great sacrifice for some cause around the world when you hardly get handle the problems that put people in soup lines. In you in the streets of your major cities. Nineteen thirty eight is the key here. Were things really spiral out of control, although it's not always apparent that that's what's happening, many people. I suggested that it would have been very easy to imagine the Second World war breaking out in nineteen thirty, eight million loathing happening. You have the Anschluss where Germany, Annexes Austria, you have the hue situation over Czechoslovakia, this date, land and all that stuff. Ah, you have.
The peace in our time. Munich agreement and I should point out something because it- and I will try not to get on my so box here but drive me crazy. The Munich agreement, of course, is where the Prime Minister of Britain, who had gone to account prince with hair Hitler comes back, gets off a plain I've seen this unit, you can go see the museums and over in Britain waves this dock with his signature and Hitler's signature on it and declares basically that this is peace in our time and people applaud Chamberlain is a reviled figure to most people today, he seen as a week appease her that should have confronted Hitler me. This isn't a million things we throw it all these people Some these weak kneed pre second World war, political leaders, total forgetting to major things in about a thousand minor things, let's go into the two major things. The first one is. These people had already live through the worst war that they could ever imagine
twenty years ago, before the first World war. Nobody really knew what they were getting into in the nineteen thirty everybody knows what they're getting their getting the first World WAR only worse again and to many of these people they thought they saw their civilization. Nearly nine out in that war, if you're going to have another one and it's gonna be worse and you're, starting it from the gray depression, levels of economic health. What's the likelihood you're going to survive this time? What's the proper price to pay to avoid that outcome? Now? What about the public support for any policy like that? This is the other thing is widely forgotten in a place like United States, especially people who we laud for being ahead of the power curve on this guy's, like Winston Churchill,
foresee all this sort of an it is screaming for confrontation and and and more a more bellicose policy, too ward off all this stuff? That's, as is rational, rival, void this war for tougher now, the guy is like in the political wilderness in this period and these derided by many as a warmonger. So he sort of outer steps with the attitude of the times. As we all know, this war is gonna break out in nineteen thirty nine a month after it breaks out a month after it breaks out. There's a public opinion poll of of Americans on the issue of the war, its quoted by Francis Bacon. Hirohito were, I think, it's a Gallup poll, but I'm not sure the pole taken had eighty four percent of respondents saying that they wanted Britain and France to win the war. Only two percent wanted the Germans to win, but ninety five percent now
the five percent wanted to stay out of the war will. First of all, this is more reflective of the America of that time period. Much less intervention is thrown its entire history than now But when you think of those kind of overwhelming numbers in us where the political leaders are elected or is it responsible to expect them to do how many people are gonna? Go against that kind of Super majority, what's more in a philosophical sense, System where the people are supposed to sort of broadly sighed, the course of the nation. If ninety five percent of wants to take a left turn at the fork in the road the moral justice in the political leaders making a right instead. So I think we judge these people harshly and assume that they had more Ability to do what we want them to do than they did and, of course, let's remember the most important are whenever you do something like the Monday morning, quarter backing in history,
We know how things turn out. They don't. Mother, having been said famously, the Munich agreement falls through, Poland is invaded September, first, nineteen, thirty, nine, Poland at me, even a guarantee by Britain and France because they finally had enough of Hitler's. I don't want any more territory, don't worry and when the Nazis refused to leave Poland after its demanded of them. The wars on in Europe and the Japanese are watching. Now, as we know, Poland is overrun quickly. The post war propaganda calls it Bliss Craig. What it really looks like is just the first World war tactics and strategy and philosophy developed over twenty years. Then there's this period that sometimes called the phoney war were nothing. Much is going
and then in April, nineteen forty Germany invades Denmark and Norway and conquers them pretty quickly. A month later, not even a month later on, think you're in May. Nineteen. Forty, a bunch of things happen not necessarily in this order. Winston Churchill becomes prime Mr Brittan to now we have one of the major players in this story: ensconced in power, a decision maker famously pit bull like in his Bella City and yet at the same time, seemingly the right man for the job, because I mean, Churchill was a bit of a lemon antagonist in it and a fighter that was a little bit embarrassing and more peaceful I'm she's exactly what you need now. The wars going his knee, but has also the month where the Phony war ends on the western front, the Germans blow through a couple, a neutral countries and then into France now we should point out another reality during the time period. That's often forgotten now:
France is widely considered to be the strongest land power in the world at this time period, many international calculations are based on this assumption, This assumption will prove to be false quickly. France will be defeated in a mere six weeks. To put that in perspective, and understand how incredibly shocking. That is, for this time period, you're talking about country here that only twenty years previously had spent. More than a million of theirs soldiers lives, holding off. Arguably the greatest army of the age, the first World WAR german army for more than four years. And remember not only is France defeated here, but the Dodd sure defeated as part of the winds blowing through this area.
British look like their five minutes away from succumbing as well. If you're making Calculations based on world events in Japan, all of us, all of these valuable areas in your neck of the woods that are controlled by the Dutch and the French and the British don't seem so formidably defended anymore and remit if your Japan, you might not even be looking at those places if you could do hold on to China. Conquer written use its resources, that's all they need really, wouldn't give you everything you wanted but mean if Japan's looking to be great power, and they think they have to suck up China to do it every thing in their policy is based on being able to maintain that addiction. They only start looking towards some of these tempting areas like French in China Modern Day, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia because
some of the more obvious avenues to supplying your war machine are being squeezed by other powers. If you go look at the economic side of the Second World WAR, which is in a very popular way, look at it lately and I find it very valuable in terms of understand some of the deeper motivations all of the axis powers were concerned with self sufficient see ya. Turkey is what it's called, and this is actually playing into. The global trade situation involves economics in a way that kind of explains war motivation very well, but the reason that countries like Germany, for example, one it self sufficiency, was in part because they had been starved to death in the first World WAR, when their shipping and trade was cut off by the british Navy. These countries wanted the flexibility to be relatively immune to other countries Egon.
MC pressure, the Japanese wanted to do what they wanted to do in China and wanted to be able to flip the middle finger to countries that them to stop. Unfortunately, in this time, Period they dependent on other countries too much. Historian. James L, Maclean Rights in a modern history of Japan, quote. To the regret of many japanese economic planners in the late night in thirties. Japan still depended upon the United States for nearly one third of its imports from cotton to scrap iron and oil, and matters seem to be growing worse between one thousand nine hundred and twenty nine one thousand nine hundred and thirty two Japan purchased from the United States, thirty six percent of Scrap iron used to manufacture, steel for munitions and ships by night In thirty eight can sources were supplying. Seventy four percent of Japan Scrap similarly
nineteen thirty eight Japan receive more than sixty percent of its imported machine tools, nearly all sophisticated alloys such vanadium Emma lived in from the United States traditionally self sufficient in copper, Japan in nineteen thirty nine extracted ninety thousand tonnes of that metal from its mines, but industry was gobbling up so much for detonators and shell casings that the nation your head to import, a hundred and five thousand tonnes of copper. Ninety three percent of it from the United States, situation for oil, the most critical commodities in the estimation of military planners was extreme The desperate Japan relied on America for almost eighty percent of its fuel and for special? this relates dependence stood at more than ninety percent in the eye the economic and military strategists by the summer,
One thousand nine hundred and forty western colonies in Southeast Asia had come to represent a treasure trove of raw materials whose possession would allow Japan to vault into the ranks of the economic have to recall one of their prime minister's phrases and duster free itself from Indians, upon an increasingly hostile west end quote. You can see why a concept like national self sufficiency might be attractive to someone like the Japanese who are dependent on these out. Side powers to sell them what they need, especially what they need to keep the war machine running. So what happens if the people who said the stuff we need to keep the more machine running, stop selling you the stuff you need, and that becomes kind of the crux of this story. I know many of you are as fast.
Aided as I am by how wars get started, and there is no templating they're all different in the variables- are never the same, but you can see you know similar patterns. In this particular case, you see the pattern of a sort of inertia. Developing. You saw this in the first World war to believe I described it like someone pulling the pan out of a hand grenade, but you could also think about it, like a fuse being it's when events start to move towards collision and Certain point almost becomes easier to run Knew each other and have a conflict. Then too Break out of the pattern- and in this case it's going to be a question feeding the japanese war machine. That gets this dynamic going and I was trying to get into all the tit for tat things and it got very complicated because there are so many players and, as we said earlier,
important to remember that in the japanese government, just like the western democracies, there is no hive mind work. There are lots of different ideas over what the best foreign policy directions are to go and different factions favouring different things and based on events, Some factions are exalted and others are in decline. So there is no concerted foreign policy effort that is without fits in starts and a certain level of chaos, but in the case of the japanese- and we talked about this earlier in the story there governmental design is already not wonderful in terms of accountability and the lines of command, and all these things, when we start getting to wait a moment where the stress level and the need for efficiency and clear thinking and clear lines of authority become really important. This governments gonna break
down in such a way that if you are a japanese citizen, I that you'd have every right to accuse them of some kind of criminal negligence because look with it companies are, you know, right around the time France falls. They have a major war and commitment going on in China. There already rationing luxury goods and fuel at home. The people are already grumbling and then what? Eighteen months later, when you add to that burden, a war against the United States, Great Britain, France, all their former colonial dominions and Commonwealth nations mean how the hell does that happen. Well, in a broad sense, it happens because of a decision to stop the japanese war machine. If you look at it objective,
that becomes the issue where there is no give- and this is very controversial because everybody's argued forever what the cause of the Pacific Weena WAR wasn't, whose fault? And but if you look at it it it, it becomes pretty simple that japanese priorities and the american and british, the Anglo American. Maybe we can call them priorities clash. Priorities have to deal with what it is. The Japanese are addicted to China. The whole reason I liked the addiction analogy was because of where were coming to now. There's going to The global equivalent of an intervention here in the Japanese are going to be told that they have to stop. Inflating themselves on steroids that are the chinese resources and land mass and all that and if they don't stop, they're gonna get The means to that cut off the means are things like oil now worth pointing because it's interesting from a military history standpoint the
second were wars, really the first be war where oil is this super important resource a week, winning or war losing resource. At a certain point, we all understand most wars throughout history. Not all was, of course, but most wars have a component of resources and vote. Some way or another. Now it's interesting is over. The air is often the important resource, You need to have changes right during the meal, late bronze age having the monopoly on the making of iron and stuff like that, that's a national security thing will iron still. Orton in the twentieth century, but something that wasn't all that important All petroleum in the bronze age is critical in this area and we think about the need to have it for Your air force, if nothing else, but also innocence the we were a war and really before the first World war. They started changing over from coal to oil, for the fuel for all of their ships and all the major powers, while G that creates a dependency you didn't have before
or in countries like Japan, which didn't have a lot of oil to begin with, let's just almost nine little Sakhalin islands of northern, but almost nine are in a bind, the people you normally by oil from deciding squeeze you this an interesting thing to look out, because I number as a kid growin up, I lived through something that if you look in your history, books now is a known historical event with law long term, huge ramification that we still live with today at the time which is called the oil crisis. When I was a kid in nineteen, seventy three long story short a cartel of producing nations who wanted to get the United States and friends to change their foreign policy priorities as they related to Israel, because there was a war in the Middle EAST, going on decided, Squeeze the United States and friends oil supply to get the price to rise, to sort, of course, might not be a strong
f word. Petrol blackmail is a worthy, sometimes use to get the United States to change its foreign policy. The added the. U S, government had was completely understandable and predictably attitude they have is no great power is going to let anybody dictate what their foreign policy priority should be, and there were few people the niche administration that were basically talking about in a listen. If you sell. The oil at a decent price would become had taken You can't monopolize a world resource that everybody depends on like this sickening stand the idea of no great powers gonna. Let another country dictate what its priority should be, but during this period time, that's exactly what the Anglo American nations are. Gonna do to the Japanese. And in the same way, it's hard to imagine. The United States not falling under the demands of an oil car talent, changing its foreign policy is hard to imagine the japanese pub.
Lee with their tail between their legs completely altering more than two decades worth of foreign policy and doing what the great power We're tells them to do otherwise they won't get any oil which they really needed to run the war machine in China, which they wouldn't be in any more, but because it is so, obviously something that might lead directly to war. There is he's, been one side of the debate in the United dates and elsewhere about how much work talk about now these economic embargoes and sanctions and asked Freezes and those kinds of things how much that was a non violent way to express The moral outrage of the public at the japanese treatment of the Chinese and all others of verses a shove in a direction that the people in the no understood would lead directly to war? That's why we're going to deal with a couple, different sizes of debate here,
as this is not settled staff, unless, of course, you re very hard idea, login believe what you believe, but there are a number of different ways to look at it. There's a place where power, politics and moral outrage Intersect and power politics in a real politic and moral outrage from a country like the United States or Great Britain, or any these western democracies. These things are usually at odds with each other mean a lot its eyes. You people national Security adviser Henry Kissinger, who was Nixon's national security adviser lamented the idea that he should be constrained by the public sort of weepy at tunes towards nation states. When he's tried in a create treaty keep nuclear war from breaking out when those keep our eyes on the prize. Here, no nations have interests right. At the same time, how do you expect to public, whose
reading all this terrible stuff coming out of the war in China and babies being bombed and people being beheaded and rapes of cities about to happen any minute. Now in the story, how do you tell that public that they should sit idly by and do nothing once more. What? If your country is providing the means necessary for these and even take place? Why it certainly understandable that people might react? In fact, you might worry about a country's population that didn't. In this case with a nation. So against going to war, what are they options that a president has in a situation like this right well, this begins to become clear in Toby. Nineteen, thirty, seven in a famous speech that the President of the United States Franklin Eleanor Roosevelt gives this is about
Month or two before, the Nanking massacre happens, but it's on the horizon in the battle of Shanghai. All that's happened and Roosevelt gives this speech free talks about aggressor nations and he talks about their conduct being like a contagion like a disease that will spread, and compared to what you do. When people have diseases, you quarantine them right and he suggesting that. That's. What should be done to these aggressors states? Here's a sample of the nineteen, thirty seven quarantine speech by President Franklin, Delano Roosevelt. It seems to be on board the that got worse, lawless is spreading. Mark this well, when epidemic physical disease starts to spread
the community, approves and joins in quarantine of the patient. In order to protect the health of the community I gave the spread of the disease, It is my determination a policy phase, My determination to adopt every practicable measure by and by and why. It ought to be inconceivable in this modern era in the face of experience and a nation
this operation ruthless as to run the risk of plunging the world and a war by invaded violating in contravention of solemn traders territory of other nations. That are no rail and where do we go protect themselves adequately, yet the pace of the world and the welfare and secure every nation, including our own, is today being threatened by that very thing Now, if this seems like a rather weak speech in terms of specific somewhat, not you wouldn't be the only person that said so. Francis Pike seems to indicate that Roosevelt kind of gone all this stuff for a while. He said that this speech was just in regional sort of testing the waters, but we gain imposing information earlier. That gives you a idea about the attitude of the american electorate during this time period. If the press
in the United States thinks that there is a very simple in direction that the country needs to go, but the count she doesn't want to go there. What should the President of the United States do. It's worth examining this in name. That is President Franklin Delano Roosevelt for a minute because he's a key part of this story. He's, unlike any other you as president in history, he was elected to twice. As many terms as any other president news history may change the constitution. After he left the scene, so that that would never happen again, but it gave him an unparalleled amount of actual practical hands on experience with the levers of government, no, he ever move them any better than Franklin, Roosevelt dead Roosevelt an unusually hard to figure out. U S, president, you would think a guy
It was on the scene as long as he was, would have all sorts of information attached to hear his feelings about things, but he died in office early into the fourth term by the way which met? We didn't get the normal run of presidential memoirs and all that stuff afterwards, because even if it's a pack, Ally's or self serving justifications, historians have a way of using that to really flesh things out, and hear them to other events and what not triangulate, but you don't even that from Roosevelt, and he was a hard to read guy anyway, almost by its his very nature. Still elicits extreme strong emotions in many directions, the time there was a euphemism for him that people who hated is GOTS used They wouldn't mention his name. They call him that man in the White House can derivative Americans often saw Roosevelt as Damn near socialist man who exe
loaded. The size of the american government put it in all sorts of areas. Where did never stuck its nose in before. Transfer money from the wealthier classes to the poor, classes set up. All kinds of agencies appear to be doing all kinds of things: spending all kinds of money, but we're there really any results changing America. Fundamentally, there is a beef or Franklin Roosevelt and after Franklin, Roosevelt America he's arguably the most transformative president. That's ever been again It being how long he, sir, but also because we use during such major events as the great depression followed by the Second World war. You're gonna be around when all kinds of things are transformed and you're gonna, try and ride the storm as the captain of maybe maybe the most powerful ship in the world,
To a lot of Americans, liberal, certainly but a lot of poor destitute Americans in the great depression, Roosevelt was a hero. If he were and achieving things it wasn't for lack of trying. He was literally doing in a programme. People did Org two things that won't even necessary in the government would hand about a paycheck, although they also did a ton of things that we still benefit from today. All kinds of Iraq. Conservation, cars and all these things it would put people to work simply to put them to work. Try to prime the pot of the american economic engine and get things going again. There are of Americans who had food on the table because of Franklin, Roosevelt that will make you pretty popular, might even get elected four times. Defenders, would argue that, if rose about putting a lot of programmes that concern
lives, thought of as socialists, things like social security by the way or a Roosevelt New Deal programme. He was against competition from other forms of government like boy chauvinism, Fascism but took over in countries with political instability had taken hold due to her Will economic situations in part different I would argue that Roosevelt manage to steer the United States away from either one of those extremes and as one of my professors put it gave the kind a little socialism to avoid having them demand a lot. Views on Roosevelt run the Gamut Frances Pike in his book about Pacific war. He were NATO's war about Roosevelt and points out that the guy is a hard man to figure out. He writes quote at the times. Franklin Delano Roosevelt was a difficult man to read
Henry Wallace, his former vice president, said of him now. Wallace speaking, he doesn't know any man, and no man knows him even his own. He doesn't know anything about him now, quoting Roosevelt, I am like a cat. He said about himself I make a stroke, and then I relax Pike, says quote loved and respected as a leader seeming happiest in the company of women, he was Enigma? Detached enigmatic and ruthless are flying over Cairo. Roosevelt glance, out the window and said, ah my friend. The sphinx end quote former time editor in Chief headline Donovan. Met like seven president's personally new Roosevelt was rose. What was the first of the presence that he knew and even wrote a book about all these president's and in it he said about Roosevelt quote after Yard brilliantly oversimplify his best
Edward Single statement the, thing we have to fear is fear itself is patent. The absurd and was probably exe when tonic for a country whose banking system has collapsed, but in the early in middle stages of decision making before it was time to simplify and oversimplify Roosevelt could be impenetrable. Rexrodt hug. Well one of the early new deal brain trust. Her is wrote now, quoting tug well, one could tell what he was thinking to say: nothing of what he was feeling Donovan continues. He clearly relished being hard to figure out. He liked secrets and had a few. He was often devious for good reason, but could also he devious just for the fun of it General Doug, Mc Arthur who despised him said. Roosevelt, quoting Arthur now, we'd, never tell them Who's gonna lie would serve him just as well. Donovan continues quote this was considerable slander, but after yard,
unquestionably did enjoy manipulation and maneuver for their own sake, all part of the great game of politics in power, but then he as he was also a man of deep convictions and dedication and unquenchable idealism here, firm and serene and his religious faith decent sense of privacy about it, it is imposed well to imagine him at a congressional prayer breakfast impatient with the abstract or theoretical in no sense. Profound butts she's in vision for America, ultimately, all the nations he believed, if not in the perfect ability of man in a rather spectacular improvement in man's behaviour worldwide. End quote this impenetrability of Roosevelt's, though, has kind of worked against him in terms of his place in history, because it leaves a lot of room for people to speculate about his motives and all,
in times it gets wrapped up with people's politics ideologies, world views and even conspiracy theories? Roosevelt's everything from a well meaning more crusader, desperately trying To avoid war with Japan, whilst still getting them to change their evil ways to on the very far side of the other spectrum. Often conspiracy, land rose is a man who engineers this war years in advance, organise it pushes the Japanese into it knows about it in advance and then luckily orders the carriers out of Pearl Harbor just in time, so they don't get hurt cause he's also where the carriers are gonna, be the new idle ships in the modern age, which, of course nobody yet, but nonetheless runs the game it too. Is this right and Roosevelt Guy Right Sneaky
living. But let's remember he was elected originally way back in nineteen thirty, two to deal with the depression, the things he did to deal with depression were really effective at the time, at least in making people feel like somebody was finally doing something behind a lotta legacies that people in the United States argue over everything from a bunch of different government, Hartman's to things like social security. Roosevelt looks to me like one of those people who has the real buddy distortion, feel debility. I was something Steve. Jobs was supposed to have two supposedly a guy like jobs or
Maybe Roosevelt could convince you that a job that was really hard to imagine anybody doing anything about was totally possible and more on the way maybe Elon Musk has that ability to. But I read that Andy hurts felt was the one who said that the reality to Stew and field was. A combination of charm Bardo charisma, hyperbole, marketing, appeasement and persistence, and that really sounds like a pretty good description of Roosevelt to me, my we thought one of the best exam Because of the fact that arose about possess. This ability was while never not admitting and being open about the infirm Asian. He saw, I have made the country just forget. He was paralyzed below the waste he got Paul
yeah, I was an adult he was confined to a wheelchair. You didn't see pictures of that the pictures, usually Sherman, lectern or sea. With other world leaders fully appearing completely able bodied, but he didn't hide it really. I mean there was talk a bit, everybody knew, but he could just make you forget. Nowadays it would be something that was celebrated and eggs, if it is used as an example right of the possibilities it let anything hold you back. The president himself or herself uses a wheelchair right, but that's just Roosevelt was an interesting had an interesting sort of about each Steve Jobs issue is not a bad description of him, but if you didn't like his policies, the reality, distortion field almost seems nefarious does not now some of the people who thought Roosevelt most nefarious
are the people who wanted to see the United States stay clear of this new World war that has broken out in Europe in a by nineteen. Forty, as we said, you have the german army blowing through France and occupying Western Europe, and by the way, the story coming out from that? What a harsh occupation, how or belief is something that moves public opinion. Yet again, it should be pointed out, as it probably played into it, in a major way that nineteen for is a presidential election year in the United States, and Roosevelt is running for an unprecedented third term. I read one history that put this way when they said that Roosevelt and his republican opponents were via to outdo each other with their promises that they would keep the country out of the european WAR. In other words, there was no opponent running that said that they would get them in the war. It was a competition to see who can be most passionate about saying they would stay out of it and when republican hopeful Window Wilkie charges that the present
secretly trying to get the U S into the war or doing things that would get the? U S into the war. Roosevelt issues a denial, and then it becomes one of these big planks. They put it in the Democratic party plot and Roosevelt than the stumps as it over and over again I mean this is from a campaign speech not long before the election given in October. Nineteen forty were Roosevelt references all other times that he said it. He says quote. I have said this before, but I shall say it again and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars. End quote. Now. Can you write that off as a campaign promise? If he breaks it is this You know I won't raise your taxes, oh well. I guess I have two after he wins, there's a problem with this and the american system too,
their precious few ways for the public to way and on foreign policy in the country. The president's or people who want to be the president's often make promises about foreign policy if they break those promises. What does that mean for the ability of the population to influence the country's foreign policy? For example, some of the people most upset with where Roosevelt is going, our people think that they can see through his lies? They see lies right when he says I'm not trying to get the country into war there looking at what is actually happening and rose felt his mimicking many of the same things, the democratic Woodrow Wilson did the year before the. U S got into the first World WAR, Wilson, also promising by the way that he won't get our boys. You know to give their blood in a european war. What is it five
after he wins the election there there and rose about won't be the last president, the twentieth century. They do it. There was a very interesting argument, though, that I read by historic Campbell Craig, and I hope I get it right spirit of in any way, but he was talking about american history, Charles Austin Beard who had his reputation destroyed when, after the Second World WAR, he wrote a book that treated rose. About a little like a criminal in a dark it, and he was the prosecuting attorney and when he was trying to prove that role That was involved in a conspiracy to take the country into the European war. Against the will of the country and Craig had a very interesting argument here. He said some historians are mad at Charles Austin Beer saying that there was a conspiracy increases, but there are conspiracies in the: U S, government, all the time any list some. He says the Caspian she's, not the problem. In the reason the beard was discredited, beard was discredited because Roosevelt turned down to have done what the american people asked
words decided they approved of so maybe you could compare him to the way we talked about Churchill, in the era where Churchill was out of power, his bellicose nature was out of touch with the tenor of those times. Could Roosevelt be said to be more far seeing than the american but they may, ninety five percent of them say they don't want to get involved in this european war. But maybe Roosevelt knows better, and if I read Campbell Craig correctly, he saying that the public opinion poles after the war and the approval rating the people have for that in the fact that a guy who didn't want to be in that war, Charles Austin Beard, would have the public turned on him. If such an unpopular attitude, maybe the argument is sdr- was right. Sometimes you have to lead from the all right. Let the american public aren't ready. Yet I'm ahead of the curve. They will agree with me when we get there. Although we said it was an election year and if you want to read the poles a certain way, you could argue that Roosevelt was doing exactly what the polling data seem to want him to do right, you of an overwhelming majority that do not want to send our boys over there to fight
You also have an overwhelming majority. They want to see Britain and France prevail so though The parameter is what sort of room for manoeuvre do you have well many of the same things Woodrow Wilson did in the first World WAR, for example, you can help the allies. That's a of a problem when your portraying yourself as a neutral country, which is officially what the? U S, was betraying itself in the first World war as to a neutral country. Get arguments again, general Marine Corps General Smedley Butler. I think he still the most decorated american soldier could be wrong The bread things are wrote a whole book small book, but a whole book talking about we were following the same pattern again and we're gonna run into the same kind of problems and that the people in power, no, this already Charles the beard himself, eight years before the war predicted, it would come from an incident or provocation, and then there you go well. We who have german submarines, torpedo in british merchant ships fives
seconds after they leave the eastern seaboard, ports. Maybe with some Americans on them. Isn't that just setting up a provocation isn't that exactly like would have in the first World war. I think there's a life magazine photograph. I think I remember showing the experts region of a tanker or something heading for Britain right off the? U S, shore and you can see the lights of like new jerseys boardwalk or something in the distance at night. To be crazy. To think that that's not gonna led to something that toxic a country into the war, what's more Roosevelt's got an undeclared sort of war going and its understandable? Why you would sending you destroyers out to stalk those german submarines right the neutral country, but Roosevelt could argue, and one of them Against would agree, hey, hey, hey! We can't have a submarine torpedoing people so close to us, gimmick can be made that Roosevelt was sort of following he said he was put
it to the limits of the law, but you can make an argument just like you can that he wanted the country into war, that he every step of the way was doing the next logical step in progress in hoping it didn't go any farther. Certainly you can, a better argument for that in Asia and the Pacific. Roosevelt is quoted in a couple of my history books, a saying that he didn't want war in the Pacific, because he only has one navy in the implication. Is he's going to need it in the Atlantic against the Nazis? But, let's be honest with a guy like this? That doesn't mean anything he's much more. New wants than layer the gnat some the modern histories. I've read on this have a very interesting viewpoint that I hadn't considered, which should the blind spot in the kind of histories we used to read. The more modern histories point out from the other side that make clear things that we ve forgotten, and one of them is
That debating whether or not Roosevelt wanted a war against Japan in the Pacific ignores the fact that he already has won it. Just doesn't involve? U S. Troops, authors like Franco, David, mockery and others essentially refer to the war in China as a proxy war, not just for the United States, but for Great Britain, whose doing much of the same stuff and the Soviet Union, all of whom have an interesting keeping Japan bogged down. So all of are at one time or another provider, Arms resources supplies some of the histories, make a case that this becomes a wonderful. The thing that japanese commanders who'd been promising great victories in our failing, can blame things on and you do once again see the similarities and the Vietnam WAR Era, where Oliver knit all became about the haughty men trail and if we can just shut down that network of resupply roads down the outside
like China and the Soviet Union, who are supplying the north Vietnamese will be able to get their stuff to them, will win. In this case, the Japanese become obsessed shutting off the many we league like a seer, because it's about the geographical size of the EU. As we said, the many resupply points that the Chinese have. They had the Soviets in the north. The British are leaking stuff over from Hong Kong, the Burma Road there's stuff coming over from French Don't China in the USSR in fits and starts doing stuff too in the cell. At below cost all kinds of things. At one point, the Soviets deliver like eight hundred planes and the advisers to teach you how to fly them. If you are the Japanese, and you need a nice victory in China to free up. You know this. This is a food eating contest and the job He sat down to a giant plate of pancakes and they're here
way through the pancakes now in their starting to realise holy cow. I'm not gonna, make it through this. Meanwhile, other people are secretly the Soviet Union grapes, in the United States piling more pancakes on the table when you're not looking at every time. You turn around there's more pancakes, you're, already almost full Jeanne thirty nine? The Japanese want out of China. It's like their addicted. But they got too much. There was an old comic book episode once about that. Are you gonna do Superman's power and you wanted, but then you couldn't you couldn't handle it all and you just overdosed on it. Well, the companies are looking to figure out a way to have their cake and eat it too in China. What that means is how do we get out but leave it in a circumstances where we control it right: puppet governments, things like that they want to replicate what they did in Manchuria. In a now called Manchu call cuz, it's a japanese puppet state, just Korea is lot harder to do that in a place. The size of China especially when you haven't defeated China yet again,
Thirty, nine, the Chinese. When a couple of battles against the japanese boom, they were ready for that what's more, the Japanese who always amongst the army at a huge contingent of officers they really wanted to attack the Soviet Union got their wish, unfortunately, and a couple of things that incidents were: clashes happened between the Red Army and the japanese army, up there, the Guam Tongue Army and the japanese- got there no severely bloodied seventeen thousand casualties in one of these. Led to some reforms in the japanese army by the way, but also blunted the enthusiasm that had been running in japanese leadership circles, Fray crusade against the Soviet Union, which also turn japanese eyes into other directions, were things might be gained at less of a cost? This is what's known by the way as the North South debate during this time period. Japanese politics do we go north against,
the union do thou shalt against those positions that are not so well defended. Now by the colonial masters. The japanese sources invariably focus on two things that we in the West don't focus on his much China and Commune, Some security- and I got years ago, was pointing out you keep your eyes on the prize. The Japanese are. This is all about China to them all these other things that happen, including the war with the United States. All of this is an attempt to you're out how to solve their China war situation to theirs. Distraction and communism is the other thing that focus on inordinately, and we in the West forget that too, that its fair, I think, to call Japan the most fervently large anti communist country in the world. During this time here in that's really saying something unique age were Nazi, Germany exists, but the Japanese hate communism and they portray
and they tell themselves on the use of propaganda with their public and maybe the even some truth to it that this war in China is in large part, a war against communism. They have their own version of what the West will have ten or twenty years after this period with the West will be worried about the domino effect where communism spreads one country to another like dominoes that Please have the same sort of an attitude here. That's gonna through China, and then it's gonna come to Japan, so they gonna stop it over there before it can over the homeland. Meanwhile, Tell em themselves that they're paying all this money sacrificing all these lives in an effort to keep and protect the chinese people, who having fallen under communism, sway, free and even, all about communism and free chinese people who are the slaves of the boy. Should they can leninist thinkers? You go talk to a Japanese, air and whose lost a son in that fighting likely to hear some sort of rationale like that. After all, is not what you would like
thank you. Your son died for other people's freedoms. It's a pretty high minded cause lotta people, sons on all sides in a lot of wars, dive for things like that. Now China, of course, is going to become, as we said, like an intervention, the big sticking point It's hard to see. Anyone overcoming because the Japanese in their minds, have to get some sort of deal in China. Just like the? U S head to get some sort of deal in Vietnam were eaten. It gets the boxes ticked off that it needs to get so we can leave it. Japan's case. Those boxes really are control of China's resources. This is not some that the western powers are prepared to, let them have so. How do you get around that? Well, we had said that Japan was basically being confronted with an intervention by the anglo american powers, They pull if you want to look at it this way, something more like a Kobayashi Merou from STAR Trek. You, like a third way, you didn't know. I had a third option right give
the drugs. We're gonna cut off your money. You can't buy drugs will maybe I have friends after the Germans blow through Western Europe. One thousand nine hundred and forty right. Around the same time, the Japanese sign an alliance with them. It's called the tripartite pact that he was late September, one thousand nine hundred and forty create something called the access and the access powers, because ITALY will join in some other fascist, leaning countries, smaller countries to be named later? This is a unification of the outside countries in terms of the club, all these countries want some sort of our turkey self sufficiency and, unfortunately, for all of them, none of them have oil. When Romania leans that way, that'll help a little boy The japanese joining the axis powers is one of the
fatal, missteps and terrible moves that leads to tragedy for everyone in Asia and its often pointed out that it should have been avoided. Had you had a different kind of government with a different system of making decisions? You might have avoided the way things went because if you actually look at what people felt like, including the for there were tons of people in the japanese power structure that wanted nothing to do with a conflict with the United States and Britain. Avoid that at all costs- or how do you end up there? Well is a ton of missteps and miscommunication admission radiation and mistranslations, how about the misread that happens, and the japanese Foreign Minister who signs this deal this axis agreement, but his misread of how the United States would react. This guy's name otherways mats, who hooker and he is pro Lee portrayed in all the history books, his
important influence is sometimes debated, but this is a guy I who, on his resume essentially calls himself the american expert. He grew he waited for the University of Oregon. He worked in United. Dates and goes back to Japan and he's the guy who thinks signing an agreement. Would Nazi Germany is going to help give you leverage I guess the United States it that's. How they're gonna react Japan hoping for some one who would even up the scales a little bit in terms of its negotiating power against the West when you read what they were hoping for, including with the Prime minister, was hoping for. They felt like they needed somebody on their side. Otherwise, you could negotiate with the Americans from any sort of position of parity, much less strength, and I think you you're gonna have to call it about fifty percent effective when examining the results, because it Canada scare, the Americans and get their attention and force a response. The fifty
son of the deal, though there was not successful. Is it wasn't the response? The Japanese were thinking, they were gonna, get it didn't, make the Americans back off and think. Maybe they had better be more cautious here because otherwise may be will be fighting the lift waffle in the Pacific. In the very marked will be defending some of these japanese defends perimeter islands, and only the Japanese were certainly hoping that that might be the case. And if you look at some of the promises, the Nazis making to the Japanese when trying to convince them to sign this agreement, which they tried to do the year before. Apparently too, they were sort ending that that's how it would be right, and if you get a new war, the United States will be right there. Unfortunately, for the Japanese, That's a worst case scenario for the Americans to in a situation that may be they could have looked the other way for awhile and focused on Europe when it was just Japan which had a limited amount of ability to really threaten the United States. Looked a lot more like something to be dealt with right away when it's the.
Eastern wing of the access alliance and the Tentacles her now reaching out over the Pacific and the? U S is facing a war on both fronts. You walk away with your tail between your legs. When that's the situation, you take it with an amount of deadly seriousness. The amount of diplomatic flexibility the Japanese are gonna have after signing this agreement with the Nazis, is so clearly limited compared to what it was before the date they weren't ready for this fact that they were going to be lumped in now with people who have some of the worst press you can get in the western democracies are mean that the gene beneath p r, good. Already we talked about the life magazine, photos of the baby's being bombed and China on all these kinds of things in the rape and Nan king. Well, now you hook yourselves up in the minds of the american public with people who are dying
directly opposed to the western values that are trumpeted celebrated. You know you can flip a coin whose more oppose the Stalinist seen the Soviet Union Nazis in Germany. Nonetheless, him in these people are book burners, they persecute minorities and have government's action programmes like crystal marks there against freedom of thought. Freedom of speech freedom of religion they dont have any due process that I believe in equality under the law. They have harsh occupation, they believe in collective punishment. They per I mean that it goes on and on, and the Japanese have now thrown in their lot in the eyes of the Americans. With that crowd, how less willing to come to sort of an accommodation with the imperial japanese government. Are the american people gonna be now And how on earth did a guy who graduated from the University of Oregon and
in the United States? Get that one so wrong to be fair. Another aspect of this that we in the west on always think about Is the fact that the way the Second World WAR looks to us is not necessarily the way it looked to a bunch of the rest of the world, especially places like Asia. In the west. We see this as good versus evil in Asia. In a lot of these countries that were under colonial rule at this time. It's a lot more. Annabelle if it's a good guy bad guy thing, it might be too bad guys from their point of view and storing John Poland. In a book, there was written way back in nineteen. Seventy, but still has some value incited despite being outdated in other respects, including what we know about emperor, but I mean he has a whole part, admittedly trying to look at this from the asian perspective that points out that
If you don't see, the western democracies is all that good and a lot of Asia had bought into the promises. The high minded sentiments from the first World war about self determination and all these things that we fight for and people getting to have you know their own stay and I mean all that stuff was kind of believed in his several of the free fighters in these countries had pointed out. A lot of the locals had died for those causes only to find out after the war they didn't apply to them. It was a ratio. Being an even in this conflict. There's going to be exceptions for colonial people, when the high minded sentiments are trotted out again is the reason why we fight in this case, as tolling points out there were a lot of people in countries in yeah, who were darn happy to see anybody punching their colonial masters in the face, even if they didn't like those people. So much if you wanted to look at this, as a strategic war gamer into the way I like to do these things, and you try to figure out if you're, Japan
how you ever win mean the victory condition, for Japan and only ITALY of the major players seems harder to me, but they hoped there were again to Nazi Germany, Japan's a long way away from anybody. The only way they can win is to roll. The double zero on the percentage dies, but a double zero. Is this weird possibility that the well you know what they're calling the greater EAST Asia colored prosperity, sphere that that actually works, even though a lot of the cynical people behind it don't even wanted to work? But in this I imagine you could somehow free Asia be sort of the boss? People of it were sudden you open up all kinds of possibilities that aren't there. Otherwise. This is why, throughout this situation, either when the Japanese are undercutting this message of Asia, for the Asians, by raping and pillaging and doing all kinds of horrible things to other Asians idea has a lot of appeal.
Sometimes you will run into quotes from famous people, Gandhi is one of the Mohammed is Gandhi that make him look like a nazi sympathiser in its taken out of context. The context that needs to be added for to make. Some sense is this idea that oh, yes Caesar bad, but we didn't see the colonial oppressor as all that great either and the right a bad guy was doings in that weakened our low will bad guy, and that was a good thing. You know the enemy of my enemy is my friend. The point is: is that there are other ways to look at this and, if you're trying to look at it from a graph strategy. Point of view. It's like what was always said about the great mistake and the inability of the Nazis to capitalize on some of these peoples that they took over eventually when war would break out in the Soviet Union because they could have come in there as liberators and they were welcomed by the locals as liberators they could have been. The great
three years of the people under communist domination, but because of their racial theories in their harshness and what not they turning a lot of those people against them, the job, these didn't have those theories theoretically standing in the way they could freed Asia and what would that have allowed them to do their problem, of course, is that they sort of one of the take Asia while freeing it. Burn down the village. In order to save it keep China, while somehow getting rid of the responsibility of fighting in policing it and expand in the other territories. Even though we are totally tied down in China once again, it boggles the mine looking at it from the perspective of some he's sitting on the sidelines now, but Japan obvious, as its hands full and yet the real debate for it in writing, Buddy is: can we get something else, and we said all of a sudden. The Soviet Union seems like a little bit too steep of a hill decline right now, so they lie with the Nazis are really right. Around the same time, their able
Arm twist is a good way. To put it lean on is another way, the puppet french government that the Germans have put into place after the conquered free, and move militarily into what now northern Vietnam a piece of French Indo China. This is kind of the spark that starts the dynamic that leads now can have very clearly straightforwardly to war. It's a chicken and egg thing, because you get japanese folk who will say two things one. This is just a empty, shut down another one of these key areas where support is coming in from the Chinese, and everybody wants us to why that this war in China, where we can't do that if these supplies coming right, we're just trying to do what you want us to do. The other thing, though, is that it they're gonna have their rights materials cut off. Looking for ways to supplement that one of the ways to take the ones that are near by and unlike in anything that might be up the Soviet Union. These are hardly well defended at all, and
simply by using bullying, pharmacy, the Japanese occupy the northern part of French Indo China, the Ray on the? U S and Britain and the Netherlands is to ratchet up the sanctions. Now, the next big thing that happens there Billy influences the story is that just Little bit over a year from when the world is turned upside down, and the Germans take for in Western Europe. The jury, in turn the world upside down again, and even more shocking fashion. In June nineteen, forty one, the ACT his powers in Europe, launch a surprise attack against the Soviet Union to say that sounds ridiculous. Has when you're launching an attack that is several times the size of Poland's invasion of Russia in the early eighteen hundred with the grand army was five hundred thousand guys in the grand
Me, multiple nations, several times that and on a front that stretches from like the width of content, and how the hell does that stay secret, or there were plenty of war. But one way or another had the same effect as a surprise attack and initially and very quickly. The very marked a special Lee, but the access armies in general appeal we having the same kind of success that the German blowing through France the year before again, they are surrounding and annihilating now red Army units but read armies, and once again as to the world is looking on in shock and trying to reassess what the heck this means. This is the last strand of japanese foreign policy. We have to weave into the store because if you are a conservatively oriented person like I am an
Many of the japanese leaders were too there. Looking just like, I would be looking to thinking have their hands full with China. Yet there's this impetus to not miss Bus as one of the sayings of the time we're don't miss the boss, a golden opportune it is the way another person put it that these changes in the global balance of power offer there's a decent case to be made the job chinese foreign policy since they rejoined the rest of the world in the latter part of the nineties. Century has always had a keen eye for opportunity. Menu. Ever do any better than they did in the first World war that they gained. So I urge for almost nothing, but they were very operates. MR, they were allied with the British in the allies, remember, and they gained mightily, but they're trying to figure out what the opportunistic play is here, and I have a couple of different competing thing. Going on competing thing number one we already mentioned. There is quite a few people in the japanese power structure that want no trouble at all with Britain,
I did states traditionally it's the navy that is most credited in Churchill. Often in a wood almost sympathetically say the Navy. Didn't want this. Will the Navy didn't want? It goes? The navy was gonna have to be the one fighting it and they knew that british anti american fleets were the two largest leads in the world and you be fighting them combined in a war. The army could puff out its chest and make all sorts of brave statements one or two they were going to be handling a lot of the shooting action the Navy was, but there's So the two other elements that we mentioned earlier that need to be pointed out. Our Gillian play here and it's crazy. The first is the mid level. Military officers are still having an impact. These colonels and people of these sorts of rank. You don't have any of the responsibility in of her to live with the ramifications of the decisions they push, they can just in an agreed seven almost pugnacious manner aggressively push forward
with their policies and for some reason their superiors tend to be a little bit Lenient or lax ORD De tend to defer it It's a lot of pressure, though tour aggressive stance is that shouldn't otherwise be there. The other thing, of course, its exerting an influence in that direction, and me play into the head of anybody that thinks wait, a minute we need down now. This is going in a very negative direction. Is the fact that recent jabbing history demonstrates that you are likely to get somebody killing you if you try, move like didn't you say, was only a few years before some historians describing the japanese government as a government by assassination. That's it the problem and if you Two will lead. Just say non super patriot: you could find Sell shot or your head. Cod or any number of other things that were happening during this period, and they were certainly lots of threats and and being anything other than a super patriot at this time period is to open yourself
To suspicion and maybe imprisonment so, let's remember the climate these people are operating in, but even the Prime Minister of Japan, during this time, Reed. He aggressively sometimes makes public statements, but he does not want a war with Britain and the United States and France emperor apparently doesn't want that either to how do you get it again? Well, this golden opportunity. This don't miss the boss moment that this change in the global situation seems to have influence now that the very marked is cutting through the western regions of the Soviet Union is too, maybe take the rest of French Indo China and start making a few public statements to the effect that you know maybe some deal gonna have to be reached for the supply. As we need or we might after. You know, maybe moves south, some more and so oh right around the time the Germans attack the Soviet Union, the Japanese again not
white blood Leslie, but mostly bloodless. We sort of move into the red rest. A french indo. China allows Cambodia, Vietnam, and this is the line in the sand for places like the United States, not just because they had trying to get the japanese move in the other direction and it's like a slap in the face when they go the opposite way, but also because This is more modern. Historians have pointed out the raw materials that are actually getting their hands on in this area are raw materials, the places like the? U S need as well, so now it's not cutting Japan off it's about Japan, cutting the United States off from things they need. This is a heavy duty, rubber area, for example. So this is when the serious sanctions start and its funny, because the negotiating position originally start somewhere in the area, You need to get out of French Indo China, which is something that's kind of possible, but events We will move into the area of no. You need to tell us, when you're getting out of China entirely and it's gotta be relatively
This sounds like a new wants position, but it's pretty easy to explain once again. If you go back to our Vietnam WAR analogy and imagine, the together the Soviet Union and China. During that period, the two other powers it might be considered to be great powers that could counterbalance? U S, strength if they had said the United States in nineteen sixty seven, you know in the nah Moors going. I mean it's a long long slog towards even defeat at that point. If they'd said, listen, you gotta get out of here give us a timetable for when you're gettin out and the timetable can't be like forever. Maybe a year right, the United States leaves Vietnam in nineteen sixty eight, it's the same as saying you're, giving up in losing the war, because the war is far from over the mare in position on China is we'll need a timetable. Withdrawal and it's gotta be soon. Doesnt have to be minutes, we're just gonna practical limitation, but it's gotta be soon it's it may be designed to be too soon. For the Japanese, too,
anything that they would consider to be winning and then go home. This is the intervention right get out of China or we're gonna cut off your ability to do what you're doing any more. This is the fuse being lit. Now you know Winston Churchill to quote Churchill for the story because he's a participant in the store he has his own way of viewing things and he's he's. Not Unbiased, by any stretch of the imagination, but he's interesting on the Japanese cause he kind of like the job. These need. Myers, their Marshall Culture and when Churchill's was sort of formative stages. The british Japanese were allies. Also a colonialist himself as an empire guy himself. He can understand the desire in the field colonies are not inherently an evil thing, when he talked about the japanese and of course he dictated or according to a machine. These histories that he wrote about
The conflict should be sound like him. They sound like Churchill, talking to you, but he sort of encapsulates what happens here, his own way with a little sympathy for the japanese Winston Churchill. Rights quote the dress the application of economic sanctions. In July, nineteen forty one rock to a head internal crisis in japanese politics concern The developments were shocked and the moderate leaders scared the domestic prestige the japanese army is a constitutional factor in shaping japanese policy was already involved. Hitherto, Navy had exerted its restraining force, but the embargo, which the United States, Britain and HOLLAND. Enforced cut off Japan all supplies of oil, on which the av, and indeed the whole war power of Japan depended. The japanese
Navy was at once forced to live on its oil reserves and at the outbreak of the Pacific WAR had in fact consumed for out of eighteen months supply. It was evident that this was a stranglehold and that the choice before them was either for Japan. In agreement with the United States or go to war. The IMF, I can requirements involve japanese withdrawal, not from their new aggression in Indo China, but from China itself Where they had already been fighting it heavy expense for so long. This was, he writes a rightful, but a hard demand In these circumstances, the knee be associated itself with the army in the policy of war, is an acceptable. Diplomatic agreement could not be obtained. End quote. He puts forward the old idea by the way that the name doesn't want the war, but because
these sanctions and the cutting off of fuel supplies slowly, but surely will maybe not even that slowly. The navy begins to move towards the army. Position on these things are more hard line. Anti anglo american position one hour more points out to the government that the fleet is burning, four hundred tonnes of well- and I were the overall military need- is something like twelve thousand tonnes a day. Another official or admiral. Its disputed is supposed to have told the government that this is like a patient who's going to die. Surgery. Now he still may die even with the surgery, but if you Given the surgery, his death is certain so, in other words, a showing the position that some of the Japanese now think they find themselves in one of certain death and less risky and still middle, potentially fatal counter measures are taken. Now I should point out:
That, while some people say and Francis Pike is pretty the surfers that every one of these Roosevelt people knew that, once you put oil on the chopping block that this basically meant the Japanese we're gonna go to war, but in his arm a modern history of Japan, has drain James Mc Lane says that Secretary of State cordial I didn't see it that way, he really thought you could get the Japanese. He's too see reason through something. Like this, in other words, if true This was the peaceful attempt right. The between the two world wars, attitude, sort of attempt to get another country do the right thing and not just the right thing for you, but in the long run the right thing for them, Maclean says quote. As the situation in China, worsened after nineteen thirty seven secretary of State Hull came the primary proponent of waging economic, cold war against Japan in his view.
Japan's reliance on the american market for strategic goods made the smaller nation particularly vulnerable to economic sanctions and the systematic application of ever greater amounts of pressure would at some point he believed bring. The companies to their senses, secretary of state realised that he had to be careful about his collaborations. He did not wish to Japan, into a shooting war with the United States, but he did me and to convince the country's leaders about the falling playing a high stakes, game in which the Eu it states could continually up the economic anti at some point. Hull hoped moderate Return to power in Tokyo, Japan would fall, its hand and peace would be possible. End quote. This is why we had brought up, though, the history of Japan from before this to sort of set up the context enlist
call it the national psyche of Japan during this time period, and of course, I don't pretend to know about it. It's something that everybody talks about. The fact the Japanese have what we call it. A rain man like laundry list of grievances places where they think they ve been shafted the rest of the international community where they feel like they ve been treated second class, and that some of this is racially oriented, and in the minds of a lot of those people. This just looks like the biggest an example of the same thing over again when he supposed to do about that, and certainly ass. The Japanese to give up more than in any of these previous cases, because this warring China has already come. Something like a hundred thousand japanese lives. Untold amounts of money effort, the intense work got a generation of japanese statesmen watch the like
We heard in reality of Japan, and choosing anything other than war in this situation. That's why so many people have suggested that it's an ultimatum by the time the United States is talking about Ghana, China or were cut off your raw materials and oil, Japanese, certainly saw it that way: history, Mary Jensen. That was interesting. He pointed out that it's not true, and it's not true, because all of the ideas that made this look like an ultimatum were part of a of a japanese construct. They created this artificial, I'm deadline that put them behind the ape. All. If you ignore the time deadline, you could have months maybe even longer, to negotiate. Because you want to keep the option of going to war open there, as much of an artificial deadline limiting the time
Negotiators have to solve this problem some other way as they had in the past. War a war in the first World WAR is all about in a mobilization, timetables and war plans that required precise fruit, movements and people getting on schedule to places. Otherwise the whole war could go down. So you know that limited the time people had to do anything other than carry out. The plans in this conflict is the fact that the japanese fleet is burning four hundred tonnes of oil an hour and the it isn't the only part of the japanese military or the larger japanese society. The needs fuel it's worse than that Though, and it's easy to forget, Frances Pike describes something that sounds benign in a week in all launched in the oil question, but what about the the financial squeezing that's involved here? What does that mean here quote on the evening of twenty five July nineteen, forty one roll about signed executive order number, eight, eight three to which subjected all
japanese monetary assets held in the United States to control by licence. The White House press we stated that quote this measure. In effect, is all financial and import and export trade transactions, in which japanese interests are involved under the control government and imposes criminal these were violation of the order. End quote the order. Pike rights extent did to japanese colonies, including Manchu Quarrel and China. To protect them from looting by Japan's puppet government installed in Nan King all assets owned. Twenty five percent or more by japanese interests were frozen when Wall Street when for business on Monday, twenty eight July, the Foreign exchange, in a market for years in the japanese currency simply disappeared. Japanese dollar bonds crashed to twenty to thirty percent of their poor value. The Oklahoma, Silk exchange closed the new commodity exchange suspended silk futures, in effect the entire joy,
we need international payments system seized, up Japan's go old held in America, became immovable and unusable in South America. Modest amounts of gold and foreign exchange were similarly immobilized by governments that followed Roosevelt's led cargoes, in for America remains stuck on japanese wards when Great Britain and how and followed America's led. The yen could only be used and traded within Japan's own empire. End quote. Another way to put that is catastrophic. The Japanese are also well aware that this imbalance between the United States and Japan is growing every day, not just because Japan's getting weaker every day, but because the U S is getting stronger every day. Nineteen, forty, the! U S essentially starts its rearmament efforts and starts gearing up for war. Initiate the first
he's time. Draft in the country's history begins tripling budgets and spending all kinds of money that just the year before Congress would have laughed at. The idea of appropriating iniquity Germans taking over Western Europe and being so dominant has a way of shocking Congress, sometimes into making up for lost time. The american system, throughout most of its history, just for clarity, patient purposes has been one. That's been somewhat suspicious of. Ending armies and the lesson that the people who designed the constitutional framework of the? U S, belief if that standing army stood in opposition to long term liberty, and so while the U S, Navy has always been something that some been paid attention to. Obviously, when you have two giant, moats surrounding your hemisphere makes sense to pay attention
something that you have to spend some time in advance building. You can't just say: oh, we have a war, let's build a navy, usually you don't have the Navy in time to use. If that's case, whereas armies in the old, say, roman legions style of the republic, can sort of build from a hard core of veterans, and that's what the? U military. The army was traditionally like this long service professionals, but not very many of them there whenever war was gonna happen. All of a sudden, you found yourself with all sorts of volunteers and Davy Crockett types in rough riders and maybe even some french pirates from time to time. What. He needed to get the job done there. Always enough, Americans looking further election, that you could raise enough troops without any sort of drafter whatever and, of course, when the war was over, they all went home and liberty a safe. It should be point
out that, even though the United States is industrial capability had been hinted at in the first World WAR, the. U S was still gearing up by the time the war and it, and it was a. U dot s, it was nowhere near as industrialized as the Second World war. Us was when Hitler and his staff people were giving briefings on what this is the famous story by the we're giving briefings on the industrial capabilities of the US If and when it ramped up the numbers that they were given turned out to be low, they laughed at them figuring? They were fabrications. So when you, yourself in the other side's shoes? And you say you know why the they think they can pull off. Anything like this. Let's remember that didn't quite understand. Maybe even Americans didn't either the capabilities of the United States.
Is fully mobilized for war and nineteen. Forty ease the year. The mobilization begins in earnest and it's a catch up effort because the? U S is very far behind the powers that have been worn out for years. In the case of Japan. Remember this these incidents started in nineteen thirty, seven, the other chinese affair has started to nineteen thirty one. I mean their troops had been on the ground fighting for a long time and they have developed a lot of practical experience. The? U S. Army is a green force. If there ever was one That's not to say that the? U S doesn't have some advantages in its back pocket. Take, for example, the fact They are in many cases, the. U S is reading the japanese secret messages. They continually despite the Japanese, We feel that this is impossible. They continually break japanese codes from the other night team Thirty's all the way into the war years. They do
always have all the codes broken. So it's hard you stand why if they knew about a, why didn't they know about be, but, for example, their reading a lot of the diplomatic codes during this period, so while it Companies are negotiating with the Americans. Americans are often able to read the message: is the Japanese into each other in the ones they send over to the Germans and cunning gives you a little bit of an advantage in them creations. Doesn't it by the summer of nineteen forty one negotiations are not going well at all. Positions seem to be hardened, and you begin to see this dynamic that we talked about earlier this sliding towards war. I always think about it. Like a car accident, once had on a sheet of ice in Colorado. I was parked. I released the emergency brake and I watched my car just slowly slide down hill picking up speed as it went until it smashed into another. Parker
I watched in slow motion, but I could do nothing to stop it. I was powerless and in some of the histories, that's the way it looks like even the companies leadership feel in this situation right there not many raw people about the possibility of doing this, and you wonder to yourself, if there's such a sense of gloom and foreboding Why on earth? Aren't they stopping it? It's one of those quest it always comes into play about the emperor we mentioned earlier. The emperor supposedly has the power to a war like this before it starts me, he stopped the war. Eventually, if you can do it, then why candy stop it before it starts? These were questions. To the war that he was put to. In this case, the guy, who is the Prime minister's, perhaps the next best person to look at say why didn't. You do more well at this time period. All of a sudden he decides to- and it's a little bit like trying to atone for past-
since he's an interesting character, who gets a lot of criticism, he's a prince last night Canada, and he was the prime minister twice earlier on he's this sabre rattling prone. Nazi guy is historic. Herbert P, big says you know quote after the Manchurian incident, Conaway had been vociferously, Anti, Anglo American and pro German. On January, twenty first nineteen, forty one, he declared firmly before a secret session of the diet. That quote, Germany will win end quote now. He just assure sure the Germany would lose and also sure that the senior officers of both services could not promise a japanese victory. End quote this guy. I all of a sudden seems to have like a crisis of confidence, and this is what brings the human element back into the story if used the slow motion. Car crash happening and it's gonna kill lots of innocent people? You know
the Prime Minister and you have half of a soul here. What would you try to do? Japanese historian, ARI Hata, describes a conversation. He had with another sort of member of the aristocracy, supposedly the only kind of people he could show his true self to any tree It's one of these figures were you kind of feel bad for the guy, even though a lot of this is sort of his fault Conaway, looking for a way out of this mass and he thinks if he can have one on one conversation with President Roosevelt. Maybe they can solve this? Maybe they can stop the car slowly sliding into the other part vehicles right. Can you avoid disaster? Can you repair the damage caused and, by the way she's talking about several of these japanese aristocracy people. So when I give you some names, that's who they are. She writes quote at that time.
Say: Angie was preoccupied with helping Conaway, arrange a meeting with Roosevelt, say Angie, and many of his blue blooded friends knew that a war with the West would be unwinnable sue MOTO Shaggy how, through the Yale educated journalist who was a direct descendants of another illustrious Meiji oligarchy share. Say on Jeez concern quote: I have made it mistake on Japan's relations with China and quote canola confided to him. In a show of vulnerability displayed only to his social equals. The prime Mr went on to lament now quoting Conaway here, the former in a pro fascist pro nazi, I quote. I am so ashamed and cannot face up to my ancestors. I do not want to repeat such a mess and I want to avoid war with the United States at all costs, if at all possible, to improve sino, japanese relations as well, I will give it my best shot, so
You help me end quote it's interesting to wander about a guy in a physician like Bad hustler has ay a mole where he wants undue staff may be sees in a fly. Ash or maybe a slowly developing realisation the ramifications of what's involved here. Hata describes a japanese life insurance sail to its p. All right, during this time period as a way to make money right because their encircled by all the other powers and she brings at all home, though, when she talks about well, let me have her explanatory rights quote Japan leaders, let the diplomatic crisis brew. Meanwhile, its people remained ignorant of such developments in weeping national campaign to raise money. Citizens were urged to by national life insurance. In
July, it was announced with great fanfare that fifty million policies had been sold. Japan's population, was about seventy three million raising ten billion yen, almost forty percent of the country's gross national product for nineteen forty one most of that me. She writes, went to purchase government bonds Fun Japan's war in China. Little did people that their lives would become very cheap, even worthless. Thanks to the government so earnestly supported with their hard earned hard say, if money and court not just that, but this is where the Buber patriotism of the Japanese come to play here, as we said earlier, like everyone else only more so I still feel like. There was some and a New York Times article just before the war broke out and was quoted in June Poland's book. The rising sun. Where someone over in Asia is
to explain to the american public to downplay the japanese National Spirit and what their willing to do it. It's funny, because if you think of many other countries situation with their government gets the minute unwinnable war, where the costs will be everything to every one. They might overthrow that government rather than go to war. The japanese people are different. If you, could have shown the leadership a crystal ball. That only show five years into the future, they had given up anything you'd, have made any concessions in any sort of diplomatic deal, barring that they could count on the support of a people that takes patriotism. Two new levels Literally the day before war breaks out, they'll be a cable sent the New York Times by one of their people, who
in Japan and understands the situation there better? His name is auto delicious and the cable says that the japanese people are refusing to believe that they're just about to get into a war with for nations simultaneously. Think about how many governments would be overthrown by their people if those governments got him in a situation that hopeless, but the chaplain these are a different classes folk and this writer is trying to point out to the New York Times readership, exactly what things look, from the other side and don't underestimate these people after sale. The Japanese don't believe that thereabout to face for nation simultaneously. He continues by saying quote, but their instinctive hopes are daily contradicted by the evidence of their senses,
They listen to alarming statements by the highest government officials about the greatest crisis Japan has ever faced in twenty six hundred year history. They are to Mass meetings to hear denunciations of the enemy, and they read steady war clamour in the press, they the air shelters in water reservoirs being built everywhere in preparation for air raids. They are drilled and air raid defence, especially in fighting fires. The greatest read of japanese cities. Finally, they he taxes and prices rising. They know that all these things are not done for fun and that war real war, which only a short time ago, seemed so very far away is rapidly. Stretching out its fiery arms towards Nepal on land of the gods. The cable continues quote the people do not want war but Neither do they want to give up the fruits of the war that they have been fighting, which has cost them that's a lot of blood and treasure. They have been told that this war is a war of self defence. Jane Elbow Room for the japanese people crowded in.
A few small islands with few national resources and to liberate one thousand million of oriental peoples from exploiting and by the white races. It would be a great mistake. The cables continues We assume that the Japanese are so war weary that they would be reluctant to if war really came to their land or that their war. Potential is a small arrest straightened, as the outward picture might suggest. As members divine families state in which patriotism and religion merge. They, merely say my country right or wrong, but their convinced with all fervour of religious faith that their country is right. Whatever mistake, in tactics. Individual statesmen may take end quote by the way. It's this fervour, something that some I'm wrapped up into something. The Japanese called the Yom Motto Spirit that those optimist who are hoping for a positive outcome in any conflict with the West are so
Basing their hopes on right, if you look A twentieth century history, by the way, there is a lot of places that have tried to overcome industrial, and material imbalances. By saying things like, while we're tougher or a fight, spirits better or what have you and the companies have no choice but to put their jobs in the same sort of rationales after all, the governor? Gets a meeting right around this time period, where there told the japanese industrial capabilities, even with all the steroids of the chinese raw materials in everything else, are one twentieth of the United States is abilities and by the way that number a low projection as well so the primary. Your prince Conaway, puts his there's forward and wants to have a meeting with Roosevelt in an attempt to it sounds like a use. This intricate
up and use governmental system in a way where he plays chess with the military officials and uses the emperor, the nuclear bomb peace on the chess board to sort of checkmate this, More that's coming in it. He says he needs. The agreement with Roosevelt needs to come back something so he proposes this agreement with Roosevelt Roosevelt. Come right away. Awake he's meeting secretly with Winston Churchill some naval vessels in the Atlantic and they ll come out of it with something that's known to history. As the Atlantic charter a template, for the governance of the post. Second world war world is the short hand, but a lot of high minded Woodrow Wilson type stuff in it, so determination, people, to be able to elect their own governments? A bunch of stuff that, if you're, the japanese looks like its direct squarely you: we celebrated in the United States in high school textbooks here. This is the kind of high my
western democratic, idealistic stuff, it listen. We ve lost a lot of human beings, fighting wars for those kind of values. But if you're the Japanese, someone saying that you know we're, gonna go to war, to shut down nations, who won't let people choose their own governments. Will? What does that say about China right choosing the Japanese to govern them, so it sounds like its directed at them once more. It looks very hypocritical, especially led to peoples in Asia. We British IRAN bore with this, because the British are one of the great, maybe the greatest of the colonial p. Rules, and so are you saying that this Atlantic charter applies to you two? Are you signing on the dotted line in saying that you're gonna? Let the people in India Vote If they want to have the british government have the role the british government has in India in the night in Thursday's, for example. Joe goes under clarify like a man. There too late or not at all, we're talking about a fascist and access dominated lands. Here, we're not talking about you know, Singapore wants it,
and though to the peoples in Asia. This looks a little like. Ok, it's war war, one all over again these high minded sediments, don't apply to us and even The Japanese are raping China as they conquer it. They may not is bad to Asians as they do to the people on the western democracies. Roosevelt is parent Lee Open to the idea of a meeting with the japanese Prime Minister when he hears about it, but his advisers can shut down the Japanese just room rejected the lead diplomatic proposals and the M adviser say: listen. Those need to be clarified before we meet I was we just discussed, though. How long can you put this off when the fleets in four hundred tonnes of fuel in our rights of this becomes another one of the problems and I'm not gonna get into all the many things that happened in the last six months. It's a great era to look at. If you are a fan of diplomatic history, the tit for tat things that go on, but
also the many miss assessments, misinterpretations, Miss readings and the miss translations? That happen, I mean, in a famous case, they'll, be some christian missionaries in this story? Well meaning folk who are trying to everyone averted catastrophe here that the Japanese think our working you as a bad channel for the- U S, government, but really aren't, and this confuses matter for a while. I mean it's one of these occasions where you wish you had what these the union and the United States had at one point the cold war, though the bat phone, the red phone, the hotlines. You could just call up the emperor, the head of the japanese government and talk to them directly instant translation, but you didn't have that. But even if you did, is there enough room on the core issues to compromise on any this stuff. The compromises that the prime MR had to make to even reach out to Roosevelt was a deal a pair,
We with the army diplomacy didn't work. He'd set a timetable for war. Wanna diplomacy didn't work apparently Conway. There is a significant amount of responsibility for getting Japan into this mess. Didn't we, sign off on near the ramifications of have his John Hancock any war declarations or anything either. See any way out. He said the emperor basically gone over to the other side now, and so what's the point and resigns the emperor replace him with one of the more hawkish figures out there The head of the war Ministry, former general in a quandary army, and whose nickname was the razor. His name is a techie Togo. Now we have in place the entire leadership that your normally dealing with when you talk about this conflict
Togo in the American WAR propaganda was simply turned into the figure that Americans could hate in the same way that they had Hitler and Mussolini ease the dictator of Japan its portrayed in this continue. For decades after the war, because this became part of the propaganda that help shield the emperor from war crimes charge Judging by the way, several modern historians think the emperor might have been executed for war crimes had those charges, loud to happen, but if you say emperors, a puppet with no power say he's a tool of the militarists. How do you say that General Tojo's, the head of the militarists, will then you just transferred all the emperor's wartime responsibility to this other figure and that's what the american propaganda kind of did to told you. It looks like your typical, japanese hardliner general, but not as far as some of those imperial way faction people, you can't really say he's like a Hitler or Mussolini or a stolen, because, unlike them, he has
Boss Abbas, that it's like we that he saw as the living embodiment of a god. That's a very different situation than something like Stalin or Hitler. Example. It also means that he has to do with these told there. Lotta theories on the emperor? For all the reasons we ve talked about, but one of them is that this move to put this army well in control, is not what most people think it is most people think this is a sign that they have given in they're gonna go to warn of the Gonna go to war, they want to general in charge, but some People say that no, this is actually the emperor sneaky attempt to avoid war. This is a minority point, if you obviously, but those who push them idea suggest that it, Sir Nixon those two China kind of situation, the old Which rule the emperor appoints one of the really big, noisy thanks to this position of Prime Minister
He has all the respect of the other hawks militarists and then you, the emperor someone this person sees potentially as a living God or this hawk to make peace. Somehow, without war he'll cover your rear end with the other militarist right, as he's got total credibility. It an interesting theory, one It is for sure is that the emperor orders Toyota pursue diplomacy until the last possible minute and he follows the emperor's orders, but he's working with a deadline now And its deadline, the changes a couple of times but eventually becomes a hard deadline, were you all over Asia. Now, preparations in place men are on the move, shipping is being co, opted things are bidding and preparations are under way unless something intervenes to stop now the momentum things are going to happen, as will be said in the future automatically.
The inertia we ve been talking about for a while now is becoming almost unstoppable, and the final deadline now for some sort of diplomatic breakthrough is the end of November. There is a lot of different interpretations about had techie tones on the kind of guy, he is one thing you never read about him, though his any sort of suggestions that he was insane and yet that's. Basically what Winston Churchill is saying that any japanese government that would allow their country to slip into a war with the Anglo Americans at this point is crazy. Suicidal is the way I think he puts a Churchill rights right after the war quote, it had said impossible that Japan would court destruction by war with Britain and the United States, and probably Russia in the end, a declaration and of war by Japan could not be reconciled with reason.
Sure she would be ruined for a generation by such a plunge, and this prove true but governments in peace. Please do not always take rational decisions, sometimes take mad decisions or one set of people get control who compel all theirs to obey and aid them in folly I have not hesitated to record repeatedly. He writes my disbelief that Japan would go mad. However, sincerely we try to put ourselves in another person's position. We cannot allow for processes of the human mind and imagination to which reason Offers no key. He sums up, though, by saying quote madness is, however, an affliction which, in war, carries with it. The advantage of surprise end quote: surprise is
italicized in the original, in order to get a little background on how any surprise might take place when you're talkin about powers that are so far away from each other. You got to go back to nineteen forty or one thousand nine hundred and forty one Layton forty one industry go back to nineteen forty when, as part of the demonstrations of resolve and the public displays too so the holster diplomacy and whatnot the Roosevelt administration did a couple of big moves. One of them was to reactivate Jim Douglas Macarthur. U S! Generally, acting as field marshal. The philippine military, I think, the time reactivate in the Philippines and let him soon of publicly start consolidating and preparing in case any message to Japan. The other thing that was to demonstrate resolve and all that kind of stuff, the Roosevelt administration did. Was they took the Pacific? U S, Pacific Fleet, which is normally based on the West Coast of the United States and move did to Hawaii what is
nearly six hour jet plane ride towards Asia from the U S West Coast based didn't Pearl harbor, but you know one man's intimidation move could be another man's opportunity, but it takes a person whose almost a little bit crazy to see it? That way, sometimes that's for creative genius is are sometimes you just require somebody willing to gamble farther than most people are willing to go. Enter Admiral is a real coup Yamamoto into the story. If the names Well, you're he's famous and peace famous for both being a creative military genius and a crazy gambler few met him in person. You probably would not be very intimidated. He stood about five with three, maybe
Food for was missing several major fingers from one hand and walked with a limp, because an entire chunk of his leg had been torn off along with those fingers by the way, in probably the most famous naval battle and all japanese history. The nineteen o five battles to shimmer, where. The improbable almost near impossible happened when an asian fleet defeated a European, and I mean resoundingly the as we had talked about earlier, japanese fleet destroyed the Russian fleet and Yamamoto? Was there as a young officer and badly wounded and almost lost his life? That is one of the battles that will often be cited as an inspiration for Yamamoto. Those idea here and deal that is so crazy, an improbable and so much of a gamble that when he presented
to the other admirals. You know on the Big Decision board, they reject it and it's a sign of how brilliant he was. And this was recognised by his peers that when he thought to resign if they rejected it. They change their minds. They rather except an idea. They thought was crazy. Then lose the person who came up with it because they acknowledge what a creative military genius he is. He didn't develop these plans by the way alone. Ah, he had spent more than a year working with other notable people that are famous in this story, but my favorite one of them, One historian described him as he's a military guy them he's gone d, like figure who chain smokes and leaves trails of ashes behind him seems a guy in a way I Stein flash
archimedes, Slash, Sheldon, Cooper kind of figure. Does bathe apparently or doesn't bay very often lie himself in completely darkened rooms. Naked for aspiration in them and it comes right things down really quickly. In a piece of I mean he's this fascinating, like wild character, who can come up with an idea that is so crazy that the other side definitely doesn't see it coming and is so unusual and unexpected that I find it hard. Even blame them for not seeing a coming up said about the nine eleven attacks before that, even though there were warnings about them, it just seems so improbable seems so dwarfed by other potential bad. Is that your also getting warnings about that see much more likely that it's only with hindsight that you look back and go God Aren't we more vigilant? Why didn't we see this coming? Who would have seen a surprise? the attack on? U S territory. There was coming from.
Our that was four thousand miles away. This is an error before crews missiles before even airplanes. They could get You know without a refueling stop from Japan to a place like Hawaiian think they could good, although it certainly can the West Coast, certainly couldn't go round trip. So, if you're in a place like why how are freed. Are you that the Japanese are going to strike? He was firstly, since you know you union have a war and the answer is not very afraid. Yamamoto and friends are going to come up with an idea. To win a war that he doesn't believe is winnable. That's an interesting thing to do. Ask somebody with a bit yamamoto like a lot of these japanese leaders, especially the yeah, I'm a motor went to Harvard for a little while he has
this line by you until you seen the factories of Detroit or the oil fields of Texas? You know you don't know what you're talking about when you want to make war against a country like the? U S, a famously o is just call him extremely realistic, like a lot of guys in the Navy, which is part of the reason the Navy was more against fighting the Anglo Americans causes. We said earlier. They understand they're, going to be doing most of the fighting historian area. Hata has him talking to another admiral, and basically predicting the way the wars gonna go. Yamamoto tells Admiral Nagano quote if I might add. It is evident that a U S, japanese war, is bound to be protracted. The united it will not give up fighting as long as Japan has the upper hand, the war will last for several years in them time. Japan's resources will be depleted battle.
And weaponry will be damaged, replenishing materials will be impossible. Japan will be impoverished. He then mostly concluded quote a war with so little chance of success should not be fought. End quote. But it was his job nonetheless to come up with a way to do it. The plan and has been a mean, there's a lot of accounts. Its famous some people will say it's inspired by a famous samurai bottle. A long time ago, some people say the battle. So she mothered Yamamoto was out is the inspiration others point to something much more recent in nineteen. Forty, a british task force in the Mediterranean with a single aircraft carrier and british aircraft carrier did not carry a lot of aeroplanes by Pacific standards and their airplanes are very outdated by Pacific standards, launched an attack against the italian fleet, which was anchored in port at night. These.
Dated biplanes and they were, I think, between twenty and thirty of them. Overall, but a minute times you had like six of them attacking did a large amount of damage and put a bunch of these ships out of commission for quite a while the Japanese, there was a japanese envoy or adviser or attached. In Berlin, who, I guess, came down to look at the effects at the harbor at Toronto, the nineteen forty battle Toronto. It's called an sent that back to Japan, so all of these things were studied, and by January nineteen, forty one Yamamoto God a like mark up of per The harbour in and out of the way place and he's got people sort of just planning for this and he's war gaming. It. And the challenge is by the way are immense, because the battlefield is immense. This conflict, which we fought in the Pacific, but will instantly Saki in all the asian warfare. That's been going on now,
for several years already. This is about I feel so large, you could drop whole continents into it with room all around the edges. Logistics in getting this stuff, that the armies and navies need to fight and operate where they need to be in the quantities you need to have them is going to be the sort of challenge that overhangs every operation and will in large part, determine the success or failure of them for this entire com. That's the overriding in a minute We challenge in this theatre distance and get an idea of the kind of distance were talking Jennifer comparison purposes. At the same time where we are in the story, you know October November, nineteen, forty one overrun well was gonna, say Europe, but it's almost in on the way Asia outside
The doors of Moscow. The very marked is fighting what they hope. We're gonna be these climactic battles were the Soviet Union's capitals. Gonna fall facing all sorts of logistical trouble right. Their supply lines are famously stretched to the limit. The Germans are now re learning the lessons you could have asked earlier. Conquerors Bout Napoleon could have explained the whole problem while he, trying to deal with supply issues When taking Moscow heck, you could go back to Charles the two, out of Sweden before Napoleon, he could have told you the same story that when you get that far away, from your base of operations, it's hard to get the troops at the head of the snake. You know, as it's called what they need to fight, in Berlin to Moscow is like a thousand miles about as the crow flies anyway longer when you go on those roads, but for perspective,
Tokyo to a war who, which is the first not to downplay anybody but a minute for significant. U S, territory closer to Japan, Guam alaskan Islands! Things Dublin for significant ones are one. That's four thousand miles away for TAT the distance from Berlin to Moscow, so if they're having problems, keeping the Vermont Applied over by Moscow think about what it takes to to Export everything you need to keep an army put together across the Pacific. This is part of the war plans. Japanese have had now for more than a decade. Everyone knows right. There major militaries have war plans in the back of their dusty files that cover almost any eventuality, you can think of a mean you gotta do something when you're not doing anything else and coming up with a plan for the United States to fight. In addition, the Canadians get all uppity. Well, you know that's just covering all your bases and by the way there was a plan like down. I believe, a nineteen forty in this case, the japanese
Plan for dealing with the United States involves the Philippines as sort of Beit they were going to take. The Philippine means, and then, when the United States sent the fleet over to contest it, they were going to have a trap set. This trap was going to be aided by they envision. Aircraft and submarines that would use island basis farther out in the Pacific and they could sort of like gnats. Mosquitoes weakening the? U S, all along the way you know have them in a condition, not feeling so excited about fighting, and then they walk into a trap. If you look at the way, the jacket he's Navy is put together, designed especially their newer unit, is designed for this trap situation. Anyone who is a fan of the japanese Navy in the Second World WAR knows that it was constrained by these and other things and not allowed to be as big as the british fleet or the U S fleet. So what
Do if you, the Japanese and you got those kind of constraints, will they decided to go quality instead right if we only have so many battleships. Let's make em really good battleships justice Was about to break out here, the Japanese are finishing up the field trials of the most powerful battleship, not just in the world, the most powerful battleship that will ever be built. It's fun! Mrs D, the the only other ship as powerful as the motto that will ever be built, is its MR ship? The moves saw. She that's only a little bit behind the Amado And behind that is another one called the sheer nano all of these ships will out range their american counterparts. Up an unbelievable amount of armor. They are enormous, their guns or eighteen point, one inch, the nearest, competitor is sixteen and guns in eighteen point: one inch just so you know, and the motto has nine of them: can fire
a car in terms of wait, twenty six miles and when those shells landed, the destruction was enormous, the best battleship of Germany. The Bismarck interprets the best battleships of the United States No, the Iowa Class Missouri type battleships you right, the specks for them side by side with the motto class, and there is no comparison. These super battleships, as their often turn, we're going to be the major hammers that would come down on the american fleet as across the Pacific in a week and by submarines and aircraft. The entire way across and during the Bush. This is how they were going to be destroyed in existing long term, japanese war plan, there, and what s interesting is the plan from that point on once you gain this big advantage over the american fleet is too
go down and sort of wait for the armistice. Reminds you a little, how the Russo, japanese war ended right, the mistaken this thinking and it will be the mistaken the thinking in the Second World war. Two is why If the other side refuses to do the armistice thing. Well, I m o Yama motto is a typical aggressive commander. There are very few commanders that like to allow the enemy to seize the initiative, to choose the place, a battle to a tax. At the time I am of their choice. I mean these are all standard military things and young models. Argument about the whole existing plan of this trap is worth our kids don't take debate. What are they come across the Pacific when you let them to what are they stay home and build up their fleet, which they're doing already till it or charge and then come over. What They go around your trap. I mean it's a whole lot of really good arguments. Yamamoto, proposing something different. This is the audacious that we spoke about.
Earlier this gambler, but at the same time somebody who's a visionary, a visionary, some one who sees something ahead of the crowd Yamamoto sees what there are other visionaries. You also see by the way, the potential of aircraft carriers now. We in the modern world have a hard time not seeing the potential of aircraft carriers there, the capital ships of our era and having one or not having one sort of differentiates. First class navies from other class Navies but remember it's going to be the second World war. Were these lessons are learned. We should also point out that for the more than two years of the war there's only one power, that's really using aircraft carriers in combat, so they are the only ones real e learning in developing these techniques and that's the british by the way the Germans and the Italians their principal opponents during the two years before the Japanese and the Americans are in the war. They don't have any aircraft carriers, which means the british
have to get into this technique. Logical race, where they have to respond to the innovations of the other side and carrier warfare cause the other side, doesn't have any carriers and the british being The quintessential battleship Navy base the use of these carriers as something that increases it's a force multiplier for their naval task forces normal now put a carrier with a naval task force in then, all of a sudden it has aerial capability, which is, of course, awesome. You can scout a head now, the range of stability. Now these ships is increased once spotted enemy naval unit? They can harass it an attack it and hopefully maybe you cripple it or slow it down so that when the rest of the fleet catches them they can destroy the naval units of the enemy with naval gunfire and torpedoes, which, by the way, can be aided by spotting from the aeroplanes to solve. It it's this role, where they are something that fits in british Naval Doc
when pretty well. The attackers right. Oh, by the way, is one of those areas where the Fleet air arm, as its call back an extra useful, because the right the Navy, can't reach the italian fleet and do damage with naval gunfire. So what the heck? You know, it's a lower venture send him in there see what happens, and everybody was astonished. How well the results turned out now: a guy like Yamamoto, is one of those. Well that allows you to jump several steps in the normal linear technological development. Instead of the normal- and this is pretty typical in military but you don't want to take too many chances If you're doing one thing different than the last time, they tried that's considered innovation I d amato allows you to skip several steps here because he looked at the Toronto situation and basically says if they can do that with one carrier and twenty to thirty, outmoded biplanes, if, instead of one carry, you had something like six aircraft carriers,
and what, if, instead of twenty or thirty moated biplanes. You had more than four hundred of them. Modern, technologically sophisticated area attack monoplanes, also attend by the way another fleet tied up in port. Yamamoto doesn't see aircraft carriers as something that AIDS, the strike force. Yamamoto sees them as the strike force, instead of the naval fire being set up to destroy the enemy ships was part of the old japanese trap plan. To wasn't it. He sees the planes from the carriers themselves is sinking the enemy ships It's hard not to see that is completely obvious with our modern mentality, but not only Is this a revolutionary uncontroversial idea without the data to we back it up. Think of what a gamble it is an Yamamoto says something at one point I get this plan fails. We just need to give up
That shows you how much of a gamble it is and watching this whole thing take places like watching a guy play a card game where the eye of winning are low and he's been. His family's lives on the outcome in a lot of situations where you see big audacious, gambles of the sort Yamamoto working with Here it's because people are in relatively hopeless situations and it's better to take a chance because what's gonna happen, if you don't is worse in the case of like cities that are understood Your armies that are surrounded is going to die anyway. So why not try a gamble here? What have you got to lose in the cap of Yamamoto, the japanese government and the, beneath nation state they have a lot to lose. Their people are. Furthermore, part speaking right now on a relative curve that your crystal ball would make clear. If you could see five years in the future are safe. Relatively prosperous you wanna talk about war
case scenarios here, it's not what the american sanctions could do to you. It's now The anglo american demands. The to retract your empire could do to you it's what losing in this metaphorical card game. The Yamamoto plan could do to you as he's betting, with the lives of his people, let's be honest. He's bearing his cities is the way it's gonna work out. So what does he have to do to win? Well, This often of attack against the- U S, fleet, in Yamamoto cases, designed to do the same thing, that the old trap was designed to do as we said, get the fleet out of the way. What's the fleet gonna be out of the way for so that Japan could take over a huge challenge, of Asia and the Pacific, and then hunger down and beat off any efforts by the Anglo Americans to win it back. And within this core surround
by a defence perimeter that is in on the law just battlefield in human history be the resources that Japan needs for self sufficiency. So you grab the resources you need to continue being a first has power to continue What your war effort you create a huge the perimeter a long distance around that is defended and then you make the cost of taking it back higher than you think. The other side is willing to pay, this is where the rose coloured glass start coming into things in it. Orange writer subdue wrote. Our guy. He points out that, in all the estimations at the military government have to come up with your all, the numbers that your plugging in for the unknowable the axes in the wise are all sort of rose, coloured glass is best case scenarios. How do you do the Anglo Americans. Will you take over all this territory and then the Yo Motto, spirit of the japanese warrior will outline
ass, the soft westerners, and they won't be willing to pay the price that you have to take to do this, so they will negotiate and we will have some sort of an armistice in Japan will come out ahead, especially do demoralize the Americans by decimating their fleet at the outset and guinea, Andy John them now the Pearl Harbor attack. They're, going to come out of this Americans. A tendency to tunnel vision- and I do this myself and forget that that is simply a means to an end. The elimination of the american fleet, which is the goal of the Pearl harbor taxes, merely meant to cover, The rising sun of Japan, going Supernova and acquiring this defence perimeter the raw materials resources and oil within it? The scope of the plan and for this is breathtaking in its hot spot. When I keep running out of words to use audacity is the one I keep coming back
two men remember this is a country that is tied down heavily already on the asian mainland, but here's what his Torreon, Ronald H, Spectre describes as the plans here that are going all kind of take place, starting at the same time, he writes quote japanese plan to seize and occupy a vast area include all of South EAST Asia. They did not already hold Burma, Siam, Malaysia, the Philippines and the Dutch EAST, India, Japan would occupy the American Island outposts of Guam and wake. She would also straw, you release neutralize the Pacific fleet at Pearl Harbor on the first of the war. The Philippines in Malaysia were to be hit by air attacks, followed soon after by invasion, so ok needlessly, he writes. Troops would occupy, british Borneo in Hong Kong once the Philippines
and the Mullay Peninsula, with its important fortress of Singapore, had been taken. The conquest of Burma and the Dutch EAST Indies would follow. End quote you can't hide preparations for operate, actions on that scale, British and the Americans figure out some big happening. They see troop ships movingly here things in the that they broke in their seeing the redeployment of forces, it's a big thing, and it takes months and months and they catch on do it. Ironically, though, it sort of it acts their attention in a way that diverts their attention. From. What's going on The very northernmost islands of Japan, which short stretch up toward Siberia early frozen foggy
in a rainy conditions that just sort of hide big warships by the latter part of November. The Japanese and quietly amassed the most powerful aircraft carrier. Strike force in world history up until that time. In these northern harbours six aircraft carriers to gather couple a battle, cruisers bunch oil tankers for recent applies drivers and support ships shrouded in the fog and missed up there in the north, not Cohen, the deadly right around the same time that that time limits expiring on the deplore, He has to work soon or else timetable on December. First, it's or else time and in a famous meeting japanese emperor in what some historians referred to as a meaningless ceremony, to confirm something already done. Others infuse Thea event with some. Decision making power. Nonetheless, it's the official in the
companies we're gonna have an official public declaration of war. This would have been it, but it's not public and nobody knows about it if you're not in on it. But this is where the dust genes made signed off on and by the time that happens? That fleet they ve been sort of hiding in the mists in the northern Harbours, with the six carriers has already departed and is out to sea and his disappear. In the Fog Bank of a northern route which avoids formal shipping lanes and at this point Interestingly enough american intelligence which monitors were all the japanese big ships. Are. I found this fascinating before the Second World WAR they are, generally no, the locations of the carriers in the battleships and all that radio traffic, they lose sight of them, which leads to a famous pearl harbor related quote with one of the admiral's
on the island guide? You mean the Japanese. We could be rounding diamond head right now and we wouldn't even know it, but the Americans New WAR was come so did the British. In fact, there is no answer the patient, in terms of will it or won't it happen in a couple of weeks before it does the coup She is what's gonna happen when it breaks out. The Americans are pretty darn sure you're gonna see moves to take over those resources. We talk about that. The japanese going to strike in Southeast Asia may be the Dutch EAST Indies, probably the Philippines. What they don't see coming is an attack, sport thousand miles of ocean at them in his very good book on Pearl Harbor CALL Pearl Harbor from infamy to greatness author Craig Nelson quote some of the wonderful pieces of dialogue that were extracted after the fact,
that look either prophetic or in a show, some sort of vulnerability. That was exploited by the surprise attack and in one of these conversations he has the various admirals and military leaders in Hawaii right. Is it eight November, talking about sending planes to some of these islands of their worried about the japanese hitting and the AIR Force Commander on Hawaii. Basically says don't send our planes away. We have to defend Hawaii, which can Stunts Admiral Kimmel. Who basically says, are you need about Hawaii Nelson Rights quote. The hawaiian Airforces chief of staff, James Malleson Return, two shorts original point and he's saying now, our mission, is to protect a wall who and shipping. Those army planes will lessen our capability to do so. Kimmel wanted details on his thinking. Why are you so worried about this? Do you think we In danger of attack When moleskin replied the Japanese.
Have such a capability, the admiral argued capable lady, yes, but possibility. The author continues quote Kimmel been asked. His naval warplanes officer, Rear Admiral Charles Mc Morris. What do you think about the prospects of a japanese air attack? Mc Morris said none. Absolutely none. End quote. So it doesn't matter how often the American administration gets a warning that Osama Bin Laden is bent on attacking the United States and is in a rumor. Be thinking about using aeroplanes to run into buildings. It doesn't seem real amongst all the other information. That's out there until it happens, then after happens, you can go back and pick out those points and they stand out like sore thumbs. Just like the in a do you mean to say could be rounding diamond head right now. Well, here's what we know you don't have to around diamond head, because that strike force that is indeed approaching
area north of Hawaii as aircraft carriers that can law Planes without ever, given that close to the hawaiian islands And on the morning of December seventh early, they begin to do that by this time in plans unfolding the attack on Pearl Harbor, you would have to say that they had been very fortunate, some of the war gaming that they had done prepping for this event, had had. The United States discover them on the way and the japanese fleet having to find its way within range of Hawaii to make its attack, but they manage to get two hundred and when you miles north of Oahu without being detected, the plains launching in a really rough see by the way, at five. Fifty M by like six fifteen six, twenty they got, the first wave up in the sky it's a lot of aircraft by the way and the efficiency is going to be, notably
Japanese, this first way by the way consists of forty fighter planes, forty nine high level bombers, fifty one d I've bombers and forty torpedo plans at six twenty. It heads towards a war who the Japanese begin bringing up the next wave to go, follow up- and this gamble this here- we are plan by Admiral, Yamamoto and company is underway. Ironically, the manner of this operation, a guy named Goom or not at all day, This guy, a much more so of conservative commander, who doesn't seem like got a whole lot of faith. In this point, it's interesting that you'd have that the creative Europe is really the visionary come up with. The idea, then put the implementation of it into the hands of somebody. Much less likely to will follow. Up in an aggressive way, because it's nice nature, but nonetheless, those planes got off with brain
efficiency and when they're on their way to Hawaii. Hawaii is sleeping. There's a reason. One of the most famous books ever written about the Pearl harbor attacks was called at dawn slept because not only is Hawaii sleep. It's Sunday morning, everybody sort of rousing a little bit late. But it's a piece. Lie and I don't just mean in environmental, Sense I mean in the diplomatic one as these aircraft are approaching, it's going to be their attack targets the country that going to attack. Isn't it with them, and there's a lot of controversy that has arisen ever since about whether it was supposed to be there. Seems little to no doubt that the attacks against British possessions in Asia were to be carried on without warning. Those were to be surprised, attacks, whether or not that was
was to be the same situation against the? U S. There are different points of view and I'm not qualified to pick among them for a long time the official japanese point of view from their historians basic. It was a screw up on the part of their diplomatic people, Why Shouldn t see you didn't get the material to the right place at the right time, and because of that, What should have been the early enough to be sorted out as warning didn't happen that way there is the Japanese, a couple years ago, that is part of a minority school did suggest that that's all a cover there was always intended to be in officially late by accident right wing wink, I kind of like other Craig Nelson in his Pearl Harbor book economic. His point of view. Though, because it really does sound like what problem We happen, which was there there was going to be. Very short window right here:
the declaration of war five minutes later boom bombs drop. Actually thirty minutes later seems to be about what they were after he writes quote: My plan z means the plan to attack Pearl Harbor quote from the beginning. Cereal, japanese army officers plan to invade Singapore without giving prior notice to Britain, but Imperial japanese Navy felt very differently about the United States and operation Z. After the imperial conference on December. First, in fact, the emperor told Prime Minister had Jackie Toto repeatedly that he was not who attacked the United States without warning neighbour. Attache yeah zero Samos, who explained the sense of honor. There was a hallmark of japanese military history. This is this officer. Explaining now call Japanese warriors never tried to assassinate a person who is sleeping when they try. To kill him. They first kicked the pillow and woke him up and then killed him. The same principle applies to the attack the required time two way
America. Up would be approximately thirty minutes. End quote. Now what Nelson says that really makes sense. Is that that's a real? fine line to walk thirty minutes, it doesn't allow for any kind of groups at all and there's a bunch of things that have to happen and go well and it didn't, regardless of which point of view you would here too It is clear that the people in Hawaii did notice was coming and the american people didn't know this was coming and because of that their wrath for this Tire war will be visceral, it is interesting, and one historian- I read, did this- he said he's. It would be interesting to imagine how different the mood might have been had the beneath said one day ahead of time were worn, then struck interesting to speculate. Isn't it. At the same time, though,
it's a minor miracle that the Japanese can get a strike force this close to Hawaii in peace time. How much of a major miracle would they have needed to pull off the same thing in war time? You can make a case that Yamamoto plan really require in order to be successful, the kind of surprise that you only get in a diplomatic situation where war has broken out. Yet you might need that for this plan to work and remember the stay. Involved here, are enormous, so I try to imagine. We know what they must have felt like in Tokyo, the leadership, the emperor, all those people who know that this is about to happen looking at their watch wondering what's happening at this very moment to the leadership with the strike in a room oh and his staff, I think they're on the ecology, the aircraft carrier, to the leadership of the first wave strike force itself, its led by gaining for sheet, oh by the way and he's been,
following the planet. For this, for a long time is fully aware of the stakes are high stands that what Yamamoto said is true, which is if this attack doesn't do what we needed to do. We might have to give up the war and he and his and what breaks they have to get to have a chance of the attack working the first break. He needs the surprise we have to achieve the surprised that were after there are a couple of things. Miss things that happen on the morning of December. Seventh, that call I have blown the surprise out of the water and ruin the whole thing. They famously didn't there much investigated, as you might imagine, after the events and after the war, cuz they're seen this failure isn't probably rightly so. The first one was in the early morning hours like three four, a m before the attack planes even take off midget submarines governing pearl harbor. These almost let's call them suicide missions, gazettes. What they turned out to be several Japanese, did submarines were part of this operation. A couple were discovered and
was sent. An destroyers are sort of agitated now in in the early morning, hours there's activity stirred up in Pearl harbor. That Wouldn't have been stirred up if those major submarines had been part of the plan. Yamamoto was never for them by the way and then closer to the your time of the attack. The more than a hundred planes are making their towards a wall who their picked up on hawaiian radar, which is a new thing in this period. Had war already been declared its hard to imagine that this would not have prompted a major response. The fact that war is existing yet kind. I helped things to go japanese way. Also the that Hawaii is like a giant aircraft carrier all by itself with planes incoming and outgoing. All the time makes it easy here for the radar operation, people to rationalize the many any planes they all of a sudden c on their radar as something
as, for example, they have some be seventeenth. Big heavy bombers do in easy to confuse them without maybe hindsight it should have been seen for what it was, but it Wasn'T- and that makes the japanese chances at Pearl Harbor at least now possible at about seven hundred and forty, a dot m, the first wave Japanese attack planes break through the clouds over a war who they see pearl harbour and the don't see any anti aircraft fire or anything like that. They don't see much activity, it's obvious that they have not been discovered in the surprise, has been achieved what they do see, and this is the first piece of bad luck in the but first bad break of the Japanese, analysing the any aircraft carriers and a scout planted zoomed by here, ten fifteen twenty minutes previously didn't see them either, and now all other navy on the planet would have understood the potential value of an aircraft care,
you're more than this one. Obviously, they probably would have traded a battleship for an aircraft carrier in terms of what they would arrive, sunk, but while they may not have any aircraft carriers, they have a bunch of battleships just sitting there and proceeded types out on his single device. The famous, although the some controversy about this now about whether it was meant the way it sounded and has been portrayed famous we will be Tortora Torah, which means Tiger Tiger Tiger, and this is supposed to be the message not just to the fleet, but its picked up all the way. Miraculously the signal and talk, to telling everyone whose- and I know that this is happening- that surprise has been achieved. I liked the way it's described in at dawn. We slept when you think about the the unborn viable amount of tension. Someone like, oh, I don't know admiral negotiate with the strike force, would have felt a concern
would have guy, doesn't have much faith in this plan anyway, but realises, as everyone does just like Yamamoto had said, and I'm paraphrasing. But if this plain doesn't work will have to end the war. This is. The gamble for everything in this is the call moment in the poker game. Here's the way author, Gordon W, praying describes it in at dawn. We slapped quote For she does radio was still clicking when the first wave broke into its component parts who sheet swung around barbers point. Beyond all possible doubt that they had indeed achieved maximum strategic surprise at seven, three: I am he sang out Torah. Tortora Tiger Tiger Tiger the code word: which told the entire japanese navy that they had caught the Pacific Fleet unawares aboard the aircraft carrier, ecology
who Sarka was not in the least ashamed of the tears which coursed down his wind burn. Cheeks impassive, Zen Buddhist, though he was absent give em all could not have uttered a word had life and honour depended on it incredibly, miraculously they had brought off Yamamoto, madcap venture with silent instinct. Each man reached out his hand to the other and in their eyes, were all the words they could not speak. End quote. All these planes begin to split up into their component parts. This all well rehearsed stuff. Everybody knows what they're supposed to do and any of these planes? Don't go anywhere near Pearl harbor? They go to air, it's all over the island and they knock out not just the air. But any planes that they find, and unfortunately, Americans were more concerned with Sir but time during this period than something like this, so they parked all the plains.
Chip to win chip, which makes it easier to guard but makes them Easy to shoot up from the air to so Google and strike force of carriers. The main worry that they have two hundred and some miles north of Hawaii, they're gonna get hit with a counter attack the things, why can counter attack them with our ships and plane? So the japanese attack takes both of those into account. And there will be planes scene. All over the island and, in fact, in an event witnessed by tens of thousands of people, in one way or another, There are so many stories about what happens on this day. Some which are obviously MR remembered, an exaggerated. But a ton of them were first hand accounts of people who witnessed something they never forgot because it the most momentous thing of their lives when they watched this attack unfold. I myself have a friend whose father as a kid was working on. I am on upon a point that was higher up and
japanese Plain, flew right, past him and he in the pilot made icon, there's a lot of stories like that by the way about seeing the goal teeth of the pilot or the pilot scheme ailing or waving, in fact, as the planes approach Pearl Harbor, one of them workers a Pearl harbor says he waved to the japanese pilot because the japanese I love was waving. The him. And in a remarkable coincidence, that seems almost to Hollywood movie, making style to be even true these job he's attack. Planes swarm down on Pearl Harbor right is the flag. Raising ceremony that happens in the morning is happening, and the bands like on the Nevada they ve got the Nevada band any doing the STAR Spangled banner like out of apocalypse. Now you have explosion starting with the man's plying on and by the way the Nevada band would finish the star, spangled banner,
even though they were being strafed, while they were doing it in the flag was full a bullet holes. If you wanna talk how unprepared people were for a war with Japan, Even after the bomb started, falling american sailors especially are looking at this and thinking it's just a screw up There was no, U S air force at this time there was an army are accorded aviator core and the Navy. People are looking at this thinking. Some army guy really screwed up and put real bombs on these plans because they ve been Watch army exercises for a long time in this just looks like a huge mistake. Although one of my favorite quotes, that is in a lot of the history books, is the one sailor who turns to his body even after the explosions have started and says quote, this is the as God, Damn drill the army's ever put on end quote. Don't know soon enough, it's not a drill, and when you look at the time
line from this encounter. You'll notice that, right after it starts the torpedo playing are honing in on the vulnerable battleships that are on the outside of some of these pairs that make up what's call back, ship row, if you look at an actual I a gram you'll notice that not all the battleships are in pairs, but several of them are the ones that are in pairs means that the that one it is a sort of the water side and the other ship is on the dark side. So the ship, the tunnel Dark side is protected by the outside ship. Those outside ships are gonna. Take the brunt of the torpedo and the torpedoes our ship killers then got my five hundred pounds of x those whose they way over a thousand pounds, their seventeen or eighteen feet long. They single plain, carry a single torpedo slung under it, the plane will fly
low real loaded, the water, sometimes below the level of the height of the ship, their torpedoing drop, the torpedo and speed off these torpedoes by the way have been specially designed for Pearl harbor because normally they dives so deep when you drop them that they would just embed themselves in the mud of the harbour. The problem is once again that the job the knees designers, you dont know if they're gonna work so the very last major gamble of the Entire operation here do the ship killers work in this hard as if they dont your screwed in his book target Pearl Harbor author Michael Slabman describes the opening of this attack and it's pretty clear that the torpedoes work
lackman rights quote as the attack began at seven fifty five, a M unbelieving Americans watched his bombs rain down on him and Ford Island airfields, while the low flying cates those airplanes least their torpedoes against the ships Ford Islands, West Side, Utah, an old battleship. There was a target ship. Now more in the aircraft carrier, enterprises usual place and possibly mistaken for a carrier by an inexperienced. Japanese pilot took two torpedoes another. Struck the cruiser rally, Morton Line ahead, bullshit began to list and the target ship capsized at eight twelve, while rally crew saved the cruiser by heroic damage control. Efforts on the it sure afford island. He writes torpedoes Rock Nevada, Arizona, West, Virginia Oklahoma and California. Ten
see Mord in Board of West Virginia and Maryland in Board of Oklahoma. Escaped torpedo damage, as did the fleets flagship Pennsylvania in dry. Doc one end quote: the Oklahoma is going to be hit with a couple of torpedoes right when the attack begins at seven Six she's gonna be hit with another one. Four minutes later, that penetrates were the first to already blew up and shall start to roll over get hit with two more while she's rolling over and within twelve minutes of being struck. You can see her underside and men are scurrying as she tips over to try not to fall into the sea. Those are the lucky ones, because at least four hundred sailors are trapped below decks. In the Opel Homer with water pouring in shock giant shells were getting dislodged in crushing men and the like
you're going out, and these people are trying to get out before they drowned on the West Virginia their hit with something like six or seven torpedoes, a couple of bombs on top of that to boot, and it's a nightmare over there, one of the survivors described what it was like to be on the deck of one of these ships. When it was hidden torpedo, and he says the torpedo throws up a mountain of water tons of liquid. The goes in the sky higher than the ship is tall that then crashes down on the deck slamming you in painting you and making it difficult, because the ship decks or a wash in water forbid afterwards to get off the ship. That's just been hit by a torpedo and Ngos. Exploding in burning and all that kind of stuff making it even more difficult to deal what amounts to most of these men on these ships with
something more like a natural disaster or an explosion at sea that might not have anything to do with war very little of the combat cited this going on. There are heroic tales of men breaking into locked ammunition cabinets because everything is put away in the guns are sometimes on these planes, for example, still packed in the oil So this is more unintentionally intentionally cause disaster and in the story of all these human beings trying to make there way to safety all sorts of heroism by the way, and let's give props where their deserved a you. Navy that every one noticed was behaving as well as you could possibly imagine under the circumstances. There's not mass panic and screaming and yelling and people are even giving up their lives and dying in
your silence and resignation. It's part of what makes everyone grit their teeth and get so angry about this afterwards, if you're, an american right, I mean is such bravery, and you want to avenge people who die in such terrible circumstances as this and make no mistake about it. May look. What's gonna happen on the Arizona, because, after the torpedo, Plans are done, income, the high altitude bombers, dive bombers are striking the airfields all over the place. The fighters- and we haven't been talked about this- are stressing all these ships with machine gun bullets in the zero fighters also have to twenty millimeter cannons, which are very nasty. When I used to war game Second World WAR naval battles, we paid very little attention in the rules to the effects of sir anything but its clear from reading the survivor accounts that it was massively effective in terms of sweeping the decks of human being making it impossible to get stuff done, creating chaos, stopping people from getting
the ships or where they needed to go, because what would happen is heavily armed warships, there's still a bunch of stuff, that's breakable and the bullets hit these shit. Creating tons of sparks any ricochet everywhere and anything that's not nail down are heavily armoured goes flying. The captain of, I think it's the West Virginia will happen. Stomach torn out by some of these shrapnel, and they will try to get him off the ship into safety, he'll die, trying and commanding the. By the way and telling everybody not to lift the ban with him another one of those many heroic stories out a pearl harbor these I ought to do. Bombers, though, come in at eight thousand fourteen thousand feet somewhere in there, and these are not. Best planes to attack ships which, by the way it is very hard. Hit a ship from that attitude of obvious These are not moving. Ships that helps and on battleship row were you these ships more side by side next to each other. It's almost like you ve doubled the width of the ships, which makes it an easier target. Nonetheless, the ratio is nothing to be necessarily excited about. But when
one of these bombs from these high the two bombers, and some of them are converted sixteen inch now will shells, by the way, when one of does hit. The amount of images overwhelming and one of them the Arizona and, and once again this is all happening v. He quickly when the Arizona gets hit. This shit, it is assumed its difficult to conduct any sort of realistic recreation of the wounds to the Arizona because she so damaged, but its thought that this thing, some people, think it went down the smokestack, but its thought that if it goes into the deck of the ship and penetrating ignites the forward magazines, where they keep all of the show rules and ammunition and explosives. Michaels Eichmann, says the Arizona magazines contained three hundred and eight fourteen in shells. Those are enormous and extremely heavy. By the way. Thirty five huh red five inch rounds, those
standard land artillery size pieces right there, nearly five five thousand cans of powder and more than one hundred thousand rounds of machine gun and small arms ammunition when they, ignites survivors and there aren't many, but the people on the ships all around the harbor saw it Say was less of a big boom, but wore a mighty whoosh. They said another person described incitements books was an awful swish sort of sound. He quotes seamen, artists, tear saw the Arizona he says, explode, He was on the nearby Nevada and says quote the ship he said seem to jump at least. Fifteen or twenty feet upward in the water and sort of break to end quote. The explosion was so large that it blew out the flames.
The ship next to the Arizona which was burning like a concussion, would blow out a match car engines Ford Islands stalled from the concussion, it knocked everyone flat on some of the surrounding ships and the bomber that released the bomb felt the concussion shake the aircraft. The amount of debris that showered down on the ships next the Arizona, the Tennessee right by it and gets hit with so much debris, including body parts, it suffers more damage. One Arthur said from that than from the bombs that actually struck her the you'll oil. That instantly goes out everywhere in all of these for gas stop and they carry hundreds of thousands close to half a million, gallons of oil on them. Some of the more than half a million gallons oil, and this stuff is heavy oil and its its insight we all in the water so of survivors jumping to try to escape
a station in something does this is six inches thick of oil in the water, the aftermath of the air zone explosion. Amid all this other destruction going on simultaneously, as described by many, maybe the most visceral account I've read is Craig Nelson's. He starts by quoting West Virginia sailor who described the scene quote. Ships on fire ships burning explosions going on all over the place. I saw the Arizona blow up a sheet range sailors and, of course, those the ones that were fortunate enough to live the ones that were blown off the ship. Nelson continues, burning Arizona, crewman ran after into the water thinking, they would find relief; instead, they found Six inch pools of fiery fuel oil covering the sea turning them into match, sticks, Clint, Westbrook, said: quote:
All the oil tanks on all the battle wagons had been ruptured, most of them and you just about almost get out and walk on it. It was that thick and around those ships that have fire on it. It was Fire as well so a lot of these people off the ships were jumping right into burning oil. We had loaded the day before, as we were going back to the states for Christmas, the Abbot they told us, so we had filled the tank Saturday. End quote Nelson quotes another witness who said quote. These people were zombies, they were burned. Fleetly white, their skin was just as wide as if you had taken a bucket of, why wash and painted it white, their hair was burned off. Their eyebrows were burned off the pit full remains of their uniforms in their crotch was a charred remnant, and the souls of their shoes was about the only thing that was left on these bodies
they were moving like robots. Their arms were out held away from their bodies and they were stumping along the decks end quote he the courts and other sailor who said that the decks looked like a boneyard from all the body parts author, Walter, Lord, in day of infamy, describes the remembrances of a ten see survivor who explained what it's like to look up and see a bomb coming down right at you. And then what happens afterwards. He wrote, quote seamen, J, P, Burkhalter, looked out of port hole on the bridge, just as one of the converted. Sixteen in shells crashed down on number two turret a few feet forward. The porthole cover tore loose clobbered him on the head and sent him scurrying through the door outside helped a wounded ensign, but couldn't help one of his closest friends so far gone. He only wanted Burkhalter to shoot him another armor piercing bomb burst through number three turret farther aft seamen, s FBI,
one station there was a powder Carmen was just dogging. There when the bomb hit. Wasn't a shattering crash at all, just a ball of fire, about Size of a basketball appeared overhead and to melt down on every one. It seem too on down on his skin- and there was no way to stop it as he crawled down. Deck below. He noticed that issue strings were still on fire. End quote: the tragedy is immeasurably made worse when the fuel oil, All these sailors struggling in the water against catches, fire. Combination of sailors being stuck under water and sailor is burning, is about as nasty as you can get a mean there are reports of sailors, jump off the Arizona and sizzling when they had the water and then, of course, the water catches on fire. It's a nightmare is that, worse than the
people that are trapped below decks and the many many stories of trying to escape the water is climbs up, and these little pockets of air and people will be cut out of these things. For weeks afterwards, the very belt armor that is supposed to make these ships a protective place for their crews. Doing it harder to cut into, and they will also be people that don't get cut out of the ships in time and are found later sometimes much later dead in, in their ships with calendars, often marking each day that they were often in total darkness trapped under there. To give you an idea of the speed of these backs. The big wigs in the military on the island can kindness the smoke, they have these wonderful home, sometimes even overlooking the area around Pearl, harbor general. Walter Short sees this admiral husband. Kimmel sees this and dumb get a job.
To watch some of this unfold, as it happens, there's a famous, general short sees the smoke while he's having Sunday breakfast with his wife run is to his centre to ask what's going on ass lieutenant an old George big. Now, what's going on out there and Bicknell says I'm not sure general, but I just saw two battleships sunk and then short scream. That's ridiculous. Admiral camels. Having a similar experiences. Get blamed for a lot of this after the war didn't put out the torpedo nets I think she's, the one that asked is associate know what the probable, we have a japanese error attack was the guy said, not absolutely none and now he's watching in disbelief in real time what's going on out there and its it's almost heartbreaking. Unless, of course, you know you blame him for the whole thing off. Nelson in Pearl Harbor, from infamy to greatness rights quote, and
That's your phoned Admiral husband Kimmel at home, with the news, the japanese planes were attacking his fleet, the Abbe. Was still buttoning is white uniform as he ran out of the house and onto the neighboring lawn of the districts chief of staff.