« The Dave Ramsey Show

Piling Up on Degrees Does Not Equal Job Security! (Hour 1)

2019-11-07 | 🔗

Career, Retirement, Debt, Budgeting, Savings 

As heard on this episode:

Tools to get you started: 

Check out other podcasts in the Ramsey Network: http://bit.ly/2JgzaQR     


This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
From the headquarters of Ramsey casting from a dollar car rental studios that is home mortgage in the place of the B M w as the status symbol of choice, I'm Dave Ramsey your host thanks for joining us open phones at triple eight eight two quadrillion five hundred and fifty two trillion two hundred and fifty eight billion eight hundred and eighty eight million two hundred and fifty five thousand two hundred and twenty five pet
is weather in Syracuse New York, Patrick, how you hello mister. Thank you very much for taking my call. Going today, because I have a question about whether or not I should save up more in my Baby Emergency Fund the reason is hey? I work as an exploration geologist and for metals mining, and you know the the industry, it just you, goes through Kohl's in up and down and and I'm kind of worried. You know, like maybe more of a risk of Mariscos, of. Yeah losing my position eventually or something like that, and so how old are you thirty, three, how many times have you lost your job? A lot a lot Yeah, what's a lot kind of well
twenty six years ago a I changed, my life basically and and I've been doing and things like that, and so it's early in your current career. In your current role, how many times have you lost your job? None! Ok! So that your current, is not as volatile as your pastoral sure yeah. I mean I'm educated, so wow Our role is now it followed. All. Is your pastor holes 'cause used to lose your job. All the time, but now that you're in this position it's much more stable right there, and so as the industry goes, you know how often people in your current role, get dumped in the street. Well, I've I've!
heard like some some folks have I've been out of work, twenty percent of their career and and basically they store up the net you know when I have to have the shins in him, but I'm sure you've been doing this six years and never been laid off. No, no! No! No. I've only been doing this for about six months. I thought you said you agree six years ago. No! No! No! I yeah, I I changed my life and and in twenty twelve and then I started going to school always had a bachelors degree. Let's see So this is all relatively new okay, so the six months is not enough time to gauge whether or not you're there all right. So here's the thing, if you think that there's a fifty percent chance based on logic, not just a number, not just I heard
that there's a lot of people. I mean you're dealing with a lot of here, say the words you're using our worry words they're, not facts, ok, I heard people say This industries volatile you've. Not given me anything. This said your Provisor walked in and said, dude there's a fifty percent chance by next junior gone. Okay. That didn't happen. That's a fact: okay, that's a fact that would worry the crowd out of yeah right. I mean you know or that you know that they've laid off sixty two people around me and I'm afraid I'm next in line. That's a fact. The button this general idea that oh, this is a crazy industry. Oh in other people, I heard those general worry concept so really dig in and figure out how much of this fact and how much this is there. So if the facts tell you after you do a little bit of
really digging around and poking around on it that you have one slash. Five fifty chance of losing your job in the next six months. Then I would not be doing the baby steps, I would simply be piling up cash. It's Changing baby step one, it's just saying we're going to push pause because there are storm clouds on the horizon and gather up an umbrella. Then storm clouds pass. Will do the baby steps when you get stabilized and so forth, but if it's, if you can cat facts that tell you got at least a five thousand and fifty chance of being on the street. Then just working the work, the plan, how much data have you got uh? So I got six in student loans. I have eleven on my car and a two thousand and two graduate okay program? What's your income? I make about four
as a geologist and then I'm also veteran with a disability, so I take home about five thousand a month, another one thousand or the Austin from the veterans. No, no, no another thousand. Okay, so you're making a sixty some thousand a year, yeah a company, a company talking about seventy five or eighty okay, alright, alright Anne. How quick can you they off sixty three making seventy five or eighty. Well, that's, that's! The other thing is I I accepted to an online masters degree through Johns Hopkins, and so I to do that to to really solidify. You know like just Make sure that you know that I always have a position where and plus yeah I'm kind of getting older. I started a little bit late, so I don't I do my masters before it kind of like loose team. How old are you?
Ok, yeah, you're, an old man? I don't know how you're making it around yeah. I know it's hard hard. I'm gonna use it. Well, listen. I I would you can do what you want to do. If I were in your shoes, I would work like a crazy person doing anything cut my lifestyle, the nothing and become debt free as fast as possible. Then I would hello, my master's degree That's how I would work it you do what you want to do, but don't confuse the piling up of degrees with security? The piling up of degrees does not create security that the confusion. A lot of people run into, and you've kind of end of that academic world, which is translating some of that message to you, and that's it's not true. I mean I know: with more degrees on the thermometer and they can't get a job because I don't have
around since, and so that's not security. You just got up Now, I'm not saying to be dumb and I'm not saying don't go, get the masters and being except the Johns Hopkins. Saints big deal, congratulations Ellen by the way! Thank you for your service to the country. We appreciate you. I would get out of that. That's why and then go from there and continue to build your career and build your life. You've done very, very well, coming back from the disability coming back from a you, know oak second career after your military service and you've done a great job you're here, you're thinking skills are clear: You got a lot of worry. There's a lot of worry in your in your process. Here Carnegie used to say eighty percent of things we worry about never happened,
No wonder he got that statistic, but I think it's probably pretty close. This is the Dave. Ramsey show
leaders if you're, not using Linkedin jobs. You are missing out our Ramsey solutions. Company page on Linkedin has over one hundred thousand followers that our team communicates our current openings to we also post on Linkedin jobs, because we know the right person will have an impact on our company for years to come. Get fifty dollars off your first job post at Linkedin, DOT, com, Slash, Ramsey, that's linked in dot com, Slash, Ramsey terms and conditions apply.
Thanks for joining us. America Andrew is with us in Galveston, Texas, hey Andrew. How are you good. How can I help my company does no profit sharing contribution to my 401K there's no matching component. I didn't know it would be better to contribute to this or economic doctor Marrero enroll into a rock he your. Company does a 401K with a match from profit sharing and they don't have a Roth 401K. Oh one,
have a it's, not a match. There's no match just based off of profit sharing! Oh oh, okay shows it does it go into a 401K, the profit sharing or is it on the side? It doesn't go. Full! Ok, ok,. Whether you put money in there or not. They put it in there. That's right, very cool, ok, good, very neat, excellent, excellent, excellent all right sure, so you Should be when you're at baby step four, you should be putting fifteen percent of your income into retirement. Are you on baby step? Four? Yes, ok and fifteen end of your income would be matching first, which you don't have Roth second, which you don't have it works, so you would do a a Roth IRA as an individual. What's your household income about three hundred for Texas, the cashier at the do the
back door to get to the wrath. Are you married? I am ok So and how old are you thirty? Five? Ok, so you can do five thousand five hundred for you, five thousand five hundred for your spouse. It's eleven thousand were trying to get to forty five thousand, which would be fifteen percent of three hundred uh. So you do those two The back door, which opened the measure after tax, are raised immediately. Roman Ross, you wear today, that's how you do a backdoor Roth, And then you've matched, out. Then the only other way to get to forty five is go back and put non match. Additional money into that for a one K. Does your wife work outside the home yeah and what is her income about half that three hundred? What are the? What is she offered at her work? Six percent matching? Well, we definitely want that. So we'll take that six percent. So
the target is forty: five okay, then you start going and you don't start deducting off we're going to take her six percent match so that's going to be nine thousand. We got eleven thousand, so we're twenty. If we do the backdoor Roth and her six match. The she have a Roth 401K. Oh one, not option. It's just been a full okay, okay, nine then we'll do her six percent, SH first will do the backdoor Roth IRA. Second, that gets us to twenty. We need to do twenty five more in the both the other raw in the four. Oh one, K Asian. You can split that up. However, you need to to get there your maxed out of a in each and so, but that's how that's what
you're going to do with money in all of these right in order to get to fifteen percent, so yeah yeah and then the bonus is just the extra profit sharing money you get, but that's non matching, and so it doesn't matter it's coming to you either way. Yeah just through the but the order of attack is matches better than wrath is better than traditional and we go down the list in that order. Like rock paper scissors, except none of them beat other ones good job man, your killing, it well done great income, wow, Nicole, is whether some Napa High call. How are you hi? let's see, how are you better than I deserve? How can I help I am just starting, shoe and I am going in Gazelle speed, as you would say, the money makeover, but my husband isn't uh I mean I don't have the money for our family
learn bank account set up together and we are just completely at odds an on his outside spinning. We have a budget set. We have everything in stone on spreadsheets and we're just now. Clicking on the same page as it relates to his outside spending. That's cool! that's 'cause you're, acting more like his mother than his wife, yeah and he's charter that the show were you. Yes, I am we're in separate beds. Right now, since Sunday I just had an breakdown and completely crying and over it, because I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired how long have you guys? How long have you guys been married? We We have been married for twenty one years and what's your household income I. We are at one hundred and sixty three thousand you've hit the wall, that is very predictable. Ok,
and sometimes it takes people longer than others, and it can happen to man or woman where the other also is not involved at all and on an allowance he get, he gets tired of being like a child, and you get tired of being the only adult right n di and it it crashes it inevitably crashes and so I would tell you, Yes, I mean, I don't know what you guys can do. You may need to sit down with the pastor, a good marriage counselor for sure to get to her moving on the right page, but it could sound something like this. Ok, honey. I've been completely wrong. And you've been completely wrong, we've got gotta restart this whole thing, I be your mother anymore. I need you to be a man and you one me to be a nag and you want to have a vote in these finances, and so we got
again, you now are in charge of the budget with Maine as two adults, you're going to look into the future and determine I want to go and we want to go is not spending like we're in Congress where we want to go not being an immature child. Me or you where we want to go, is we're going to look in the future like two adults and say: we've got to clean up this debt and we've got to retire with dignity and we've got to enjoy our life to some degree doing all of that the vote and I get a vote, but we're going to have mature goals and we're going to work. Gather. I am no longer going to do a budget and try to tell you what you're going to do you're going to be a man and you're going to work with hide me. The two of us are going to work together and we're with a game plan. Together, we both have a vote. That's going to be a little uncomfortable for you 'cause. You been used
being in control of your bit of a control freak. I am an he's going be uncomfortable for him these kind of used to being lazy about this subject he's had no involvement in I twenty one freaking years yeah, it's overdue, he's going to have to man up Anne come to the table now. Does he have to become a spreadsheet nerd like Miss Nicole, now, but we're going to make the decisions on the money together and so it sounds as the nerd of the family, you in my family. It's me lays out a budget and then both plus look at it together and together we We are going to approve a plan that is good for our it's not me telling sure, and what to do it's, not you telling your husband. What today, and he has a vote and he's going to mess with your little plan
you may lose a few battles with your gazelle intensity. You need turn gazelle intensity off right now. Till you get him on board him being on board in the two of you? Working together is more important than gazelle intensity to your success. Yeah right Dave! Well, thank you so much and thank you. For coming into our home. I thank God for you everyday. Proud of you, and you guys can do this and hey if you want to get on the phone and call back will talk to both of you, 'cause Wyatt, there's another there's enough blame to go around here and neither one of your bad people, but you've been doing it's the wrong way so long that it blew up in your face. And the wrong areas is that he did the wrong way. Is he didn't have a vote and you got? part of being the only one carrying all the responsibility I totale yeah, and today's it's over ain't, your mama yep ain't. We don't want him, that's it. God bless you.
Thank you for calling in this is the Dave Ramsey show I gotta call the other day an. I thought it was worth talking about. Again. It was from a wife looking for life insurance for her family. She asked why I only recommend term life insurance instead of cash value plans like whole life. I use
explain how you overpay for coverage earn a horrible rate of interest and don't get your cash value when you die. But this time I just had her go straight to Zander dot com and get a rate, and then we compared that rate to the whole life plan and she immediately saw the huge savings. That's why suggests that everyone go to Zander dot com or call them at eight hundred three five hundred and sixty four Two hundred and eighty two and get a free quote, Ramsey solutions, Joey and Jesse are well. Okay, were you guys live Lafayette? Louisiana? all the way to Nashville to do a death race, cream love, it
Have you paid off good boy one thousand three hundred and twenty dollars love it, and how long did this take fifteen months and five days less within five days ago, very good. This is fresh and your range of income during that fifteen months, one fifty one, fifty five very good, What are you guys do for a living? history, Gulf of Mexico and that's the whole thing that they knew the cheerleader. I love it. Financial coach, that's perfect! Ok, very good! What kind of debt was the forty one thousand? Oh, we had credit cards for one K loan stupid. And we had a car loan or loan and some furniture. Everything, your normal yeah, how long you been married, we just sell. Our 20th anniversary this year, how fun very cool twenty years of marriage fifteen months ago. What happened well last year
surgery, kind of said, everything in perspective. I came out surgery and we were like that's it- we're done yep yep this, Stop! You know he made such a good income, but we didn't feel like we were getting anywhere. We have two adult daughters and he just wanted them to see a app positive? You know like um, just better legacy so we were not drowning. We were not like you know starving, but it was ridiculous that the sacrifices he makes and the money that he makes that we feeling. So you come out of surgery in your kind of reset. You re look at life, really 'cause. It's like whoa. I better get serious about this thing. We might not always have it. This thing called life and you go. Oh, we make to much money to be this broke then what happened? Yes,
plan a couple years ago. We tried it by ourselves, failed tremendously. We tried your yes yeah plan, but with the viral yeah, yes, plants, yeah rule our rules didn't work at all. We love the idea of it, but it's hard to, and you know we were teenagers at that time and everything and we felt like we should do that and- and we quickly realized that you know instant gratification is not always the way to go. So you pull, cool stuff off the shelf blow the dust off of it or what we yeah we actually, We got online and called here and got f p you ship to the house. Okay, and we started at home, okay and they attended a class a few years ago in Baton Rouge. You did down there, yeah kind of jump, start the kids with that and yeah, but my daughters have taken your. Are your curriculum at Louisiana Tech, wow, yeah good, so they we have one graduating next week. No student
phones at all hundred percent debt free, the youngest one had two years of college: no debt wow, so yeah all envelopes little Leonard warning envelopes with cash token of our daughters, so hey. This is awesome and the mom and dad come along clean up yeah. Here we go right. Congratulations you thanks! They very very product. It's very hard to do! Yeah it is it is it is it is you don't have to be drowning to get serious about it, then our do now. I don't know it's just it's a it's. A three bees budget budget budget. There's three things: you do budget budget and budget. So what did you get out of the buy one of the budget? Do what what is allowed 'cause, that's the truth, causes you to win, but I want to hear from you, while you think it causes you to win, think for me. I let her do all the budgeting I didn't participate. I went work- let her handle and she's great at that she's very. I was a free spirit, she's a nerd uhhuh and I,
when we sat down and actually look at the numbers you like. Oh man this yeah to change what we were spending on, what we were spending ridiculous stuff, financing, meals and financing. Things: no, we not for furniture in twenty years and we decided to buy furniture. You know we could have gone back to restore and but if you want it all out, as for sitting down, you know both of us religiously sitting down on purpose and taken the steps now so are when, when You decided to look at the numbers with Jesse. That's when things changed yeah if you do in the budget, together with the key yeah that was, that was the big chain shift for you all. That was part of the class that we saw. You know an f p. U was sit down and have that budget discussion. Hard, it is hard and and then you realize the struggle in
in not in the end. This is not the end, but is a gift in return, because it makes you have conversations that you might not have the courage to have the four and then you grow as a couple- and I mean a gift for our kids, to see that you know I wish you can say I wish we did on this. They were babies, but you know they're, seeing it now. Yeah, and they're living it now too. So it's perfect and we did the whole plus ectomy cut up the clinical yeah! It was great because you like homing- and you know it's easy but it's easy, but it's easy in the moment, but over the scope of your life. It's hard, and the interesting thing is sing. It wisely is the opposite. It's hard in the moment, but over the scope, your life, it's easier, yeah, there's life easy! Now you got. You got a budget, you gotta game plan, you got a great income and you got no payments. We lost forty one thousand dollars of weight I very cool. Well, congratulations. You guys were probably very proud of.
Get a copy of Chris Hogan's book retire. Inspired reach the next chapter in your story to close the chapter, one debt free, open chapter, two become wealthy, become everyday millionaires and outrageously generous as you go along. Well done. You guys very, very well done Joey and Jesse Lafayette LA forty two off in fifteen months after twenty years of marriage, a hundred fifty to one hundred and fifty five income, let's hear debt three, two where very well done beautiful, beautiful, open phones, is our as we talk about your life and your money. Eric is with us in New York City hi Eric. How are you How are you today better than I deserve? What's up? Yes,
I want to give you a little bit of an update of our total money makeover. I spoke with you about ten months ago. Hi What the guy that my wife, Seventy five thousand dollars in credit card debt was actually eighty thousand and yeah? I I I I want to call on. Thank you and let you know what we're doing. Okay tell me about a certain. If thank ten months we haven't used a credit card. In ten months we paid off. Twenty one thousand dollars in credit card debt, good. I'm making our minimums anar snowball and I also sold the rv, which I owed twelve thousand five hundred on. I found somebody that bought it over the internet, so we eliminate it that debt so we're looking at thirty. Three thousand five hundred eliminate it in ten months go man axle.
And then you probably wouldn't believe what are income is what your income. Okay, my wife and I I did land a job. It's not the not a great job, but anyway our net income is sixty. Five thousand combined yearly you're I get amazing progress living in New York City to do that. That's amazing, very well done! So. How did you guys overcome her hiding the debt house, the relationship, Really I'm in a relationship is good. I mean there still is there what time do you know when we feel strain? Could we still have a lot to go? but we're we're open now with the finances. We do it together now, so you don't think to be any stuff happening under the table, so to speak?. Now I really don't you know we. When I opened up the banking we sit there, we do everything together, did we run credit checks, she probably
it feels a relief then. Yeah item height. Imagine so yeah while ago Eric thanks for the update man, I'm proud of you, you doing it doing it, you're right in the middle of it get after it baby. You got this. This is the Dave. Ramsey show
thanks for doing this America in California, better than I deserve. What's up, I'm so me and my wife a car about two years ago. I think Virgo and LEO about twenty one dollars and my dad extra car. He was to give me and kind of thinking about selling the car completely and driving. I would around the the card. Work and everything just to get out from under that
so without like six grander left and get a loan to pay off the six grand. Ok, all right, and what's your household income we make about seven, five thousand dollars a year, how much other debt other than your home and this car do you have we just we're renting right now we have another car, it's a prius. Uh we right now. Oh one thousand two hundred dollars left on it we're going to pay that off this month and then it's just that car. That's it that's the rest of our deserts. So one thousand two hundred dollars six thousand holes. On the car and and then you're debt free and then you're going to do what right save up three to six. And then you know, I tell you what he tells me. Okay show me: what's what's the grand plan here, where you going with all What why are you? What are money to buy a house? Okay, so
if you, when you say it that way, what you're saying is as I'm willing to sell my car, because it gets me into a house faster. Exactly given that that'll give me a car yep, okay, it's an old beater, but I mean that's. I don't really need it. Fancy yeah, I mean we got a goal and so we're going to pay a price to our goal. Yeah and then All was not the car. The goal is the house and that's a good goal so yeah, that's your trade off your just yet launch windows, forced to say it out loud. Is I'm not just selling a car to sell my car, I'm selling my car because it gets me in your house faster yep, we're just kind of nervous about. You know the whole we haven't. Car and then getting into an old kind of just an older vehicle, yeah, so rundown yeah, I guess yeah, ok well, but I mean for twenty thousand dollars. You can fix that old car, a lot yeah so yeah. I think it's a good move. I think it's a good move. It 'cause, I think
It is not just a mathematical move, that's good. What is good about it is, is that you guys are as a team. You and your wife are committing to sacrifice to hit a goal, and that's why car sale represents, and I think, that's more important than the actual sale of the car. So you know and we're just going along outlets by car. Now, let's get a Prius, but let's do this now, let's do that? Oh crap! We don't have a house an were boxed into the corner. We've painted ourselves into the corner, and so you know- and now you woke up when I want get of this, and I want to develop a plan, a strategic plan to actually do this on purpose. This money thing and see all That stuff that I hear in this conversation is the most important part of where your head is right now James, so I'm real, proud of you. I think I would do this yes, Kristen is with us in Atlanta, hi Kristen, how are you I'm so how are you better than I deserve? How can I help
currently my husband and I are trying to tackle some of your baby. Steps were new to but I've been listening to you about Now I'm madly in love with your philosophy and how to tackle that Currently we have about ninety eight thousand worth of debt together, that's not including our house. We have two little my ranging in ages, seven and three and R2, sign on and we're looking to add another one to the family and I'm the point. I want to be done done, having babies and will not be a mommy and maybe start next year there were only in thirty six here we still have a lot of that, and obviously saving would be really key here to set ourselves up, Yes, I have another baby. I'm just kind of not sure to do do we wait another year or two until most of our debts knocked out or
just go ahead and say: hey: let's do it we're both still young and will keep going. Your program and hopefully manage it somehow okay. So what is your even make a year. Fifty and you're ninety eight thousand dollars and what kind of debt student loans, so if you are alone on a credit card in a car, how much do you owe on your car. So he's, we recently actually just traded in an upgraded for minivans now so we're kind of set up for bigger family so we're at about forty three thousand well, that was pretty freaking stupid, so sell the Van
Say something that ok help help your debt and you want to have babies, have of your dad was a stupid van right. You called a talk, radio host to ask permission to have babies because you bought a van you couldn't afford. I'm fussing at you feeling it your I'm feeling it. I mean really you traded? The right to have? children? Financially, for a van, so trade back. Trade back? The reason this doesn't make sense in your mind and in your heart is you're overwhelmed with and you're worried about whether not you can afford to do this and uh you afford to do this as you bought a van you couldn't afford. Conclusions real simple sell, the Van well I work too. Can I make commission on top of what I bring home monthly? I don't
that changes. This conversation it as I bring in about seventy based on salad, in commissions can range from anywhere from you can't afford and so you're having to uh In your own mind, and then asking me whether you can afford to have children when reason you're asking the question: is your pinched and the reason you're pinched? Is you bought a van you can't afford, but that's the bottom line here and so yeah. I think you ought to have Are you going to quit when you have kids? No, no! No! I love working and also being a mom right. Ok, so get a five thousand dollars Van and sell this fan. Is a really dumb idea. You doubled your consumer debt all in the name of babies that aren't even here yet and a place to carry them in a car. You can't afford it's. Just nuts.
You even knew that 'cause, you know what you said when I ask about it, my husband's going to kill me He's going to kill me on how it will happen, I went in for an oil change and came out with a minivan, but, to be honest, I was doing it in an effort to have a reliable car. 'cause previous cars were all used. Reliable and cost me a fortune forty three thousand but I look at this man as As- It's going to help you darling, I don't think I can help you, okay, I'm not argue with you about this anymore. This is a dumb move. You can't really justify it. You can't really rationalize it if you're not going to undo it. I can't help you, okay, you do what you want okay you're an adult you're allowed to do what you want to do, but I'm not it's absolutely absurd. The whole process sure how you got. There was absurd. The decision was absurd.
You're now worried about having kids, because you made this decision is absurd and then the fact that you don't want to undo the decision is absurd, so that that's what your fashion kiddo. So you got the side your side. What you're going to hear you have kids, one of my, because it's really tough for you to afford both. That's why you call me if you were feeling that bench not because you actually needed my permission to have kids. That's that's crazy! You know you don't need our permission of kids so right thanks for the call open, phones, a triple a eight million two hundred and fifty five thousand two hundred and twenty five by the way. Folks, let me help you with this there's an easy way to know. If you can't afford to buy something, you didn't pay for it. If you borrow the money to go on vacation on a credit card. You couldn't afford the vacation if you borrow the money to eat out less you couldn't afford to eat out last night. If you borrowed the money, dot, dot dot, you couldn't afford dot dot dot. If you can't
the check and pay for it. That means you can't afford it I haven't, earned the right to do that. Yet 'cause you don't have the money simple formula. I will really help you. You can't pay in cash right then, and total don't buy it. This is Ramsey, show This is James Charles producer of the Dave Ramsey Show. Did you know you can now listen to the Dave, Ramsey Show on Pandora and Spotify for all the ways to watch and listen check out our show page at daveramsey dot com, slash show
money, isn't the only thing we talk about around here? Get a life changing advice on your career from my good friend and career expert can call all my Kim Coleman show. According to a recent Gallup poll, nearly seventy percent of Americans are disengaged at work. If you dread going into work every Monday morning and you're just trying to make it to the weekend, the KEN Coleman Show is for you, everyone has a sweet spot. Your so Spot is at the intersection of your greatest talent and greatest passion. We will if you discover what it is you were born to do and then we'll help you create a plan to make your dream job a reality. You matter and you have what it takes join the conversation on the CAN Coleman show here more from the Ramsey network, including the can call in show where ever you listen to podcasts, hey, it's Jay. Producer of the Dave Ramsey Show
Transcript generated on 2019-11-09.