Hey guys, it's Dave, as you know, I'm always looking to protect our listeners from scummy companies, bad products, and money. Myths designed you broke team is working on a brand new show from the Ramsay network called the fine print in every episode, our host George Camel uncovers a hidden truth to help you win with money, I joined in on the first episode to take on the eight hundred pound guerrilla in the tax base. Take a listen. This happen, though it is brought to you by Ramsay. Smart tax

from Ramsay network. This is the fine print a show where we talk about the hidden truths that are keeping you broke, George Camel and in every episode I do the research for you on the latest financial trends and traps to help save you time and money. This week will be talking about her about tax, their shady business model and when using their software could mean for your wallet now. tax filing may not be the sexiest topic or be high on your favorite Hobbes list. Unless you're acts account case. I salute your strange love of government forms, but for most people Killing taxes is only slightly less painful sense being on a legal barefoot. Basically, This is how it works. Every year you make money. The government says you always some of that is called taxes. We go ok! Well, how much do you and they say? Well, you have to figure that out for yourself and we reply arrives, I didnt pay. What I want they respond,

Oh no, we know exactly how much you oh, but you have to guess that never to what, if I get a wrong, oh just fines, penalties and possible jail time. What that's crazy and sparkled summary, maybe a little over the top We can all agree that the government tends to make things clunky and confusing, so we earned a technology to help ease the pain and, without a doubt, current behemoth in the space is Turbo tax, which has almost seventy percent market share when it comes to sell filing They are owned by a parent company called into it, just now worth about one hundred billion dollars thanks. its other successful daughter companies. I quit books meant and most recently credit karma. Like most Silicon Valley, tech giants, Turbo TAT, isn't perfect. Bunch of unhappy customers would be the first to tell you one of those customers is Christopher,

It was my first year do in tackling if we are to require that the day, all the time, trying to think what I fix what I could have done better, and I put my trust in the wrong place. Please backstory, we all know. Tax forms are super important when it comes to file. It affects how much you, oh and how much you get back as a refund, so different. His wife did their taxes and twenty twenty. He says they were sent for ten. Ninety five egg, a statement you get had health insurance through the affordable care act according to Christopher Turbo Tax, never pay contempt for the form and approved. return anyways and after waiting, five months for their refund check here the IRS told them? The missing form is what caused the air which put their refunds in purgatory they should have been able to search violence they swarmed exist, go hadn't so that other people work out. Mcgowan

I called and that's been, that the main issue in Europe: eight thousand hours, the eggs, so turbo tax, tweet it out in December. Twenty twenty get your tax is downright pay. Zero dollars to file FED and state taxes will share about tax. Simple tax returns they got a response for guy, who said you guys screwed over my twenty nineteen return. I couldn't provide. Might ninety five eight, because there was nowhere in Europe to included and your so called tax experts who were, you'd, my filing approved it. I ended up having to amend my return by myself. I will be going to. counting from now on. That sounds like you, As I almost exactly like my experience that Wild Edina, said something similar said turbo tax, as there is an error in my ten ninety five eight health form, it doesn't say what the errors and doesn't allow moving on its help system. Requires you to rephrase the question three times before an option to reach a person, it offered

Five, our weight time and now says help us down. So did you have a similar experience trying to reach out to them for help? I don't even bother, because both the Irish and the tax professional I spoke with said there were, it was point- was to contact her about tax. internal taxes website. If I want to my account still to this day, does my return has been accepted, while so the p His great adapter about tax can do nothing to fix it. That way, it's sad when the IRS is more helpful than turbo, Can I get a lot of the yacht a heat, but in this case the IRS looking like a champ yeah? Actually I thought of it that way, but we are they have been moral written. Another tween here says file for free how about taxes so misleading. I uploaded a ten ninety five, a and with China forty dollars for your deluxe version. then you're associate suggested that I should not have included that in my return. Are you try to have me audited it? Sadly,

you, pray on low incomes and disabled Thou ones, from torture to them. They do charge. If you do have that form as part of your return here- and I mean we paid anyway, even without affording up for women, that was just a guess: expert advice and have it reviewed by an expert who? So that's that's insult to injury. So you, to have a relief to make sure that it wasn't screwed up and they screwed there on top of charging you yet absolutely the federal return ass. To be forty three hundred dollars, not only we must now refund, but we didn't qualify for the stimulus checks, on the twenty eighteen information so that's another six hundred there were missing out on so in total using turbo tax cost about seventy nine hundred dollars there we're waiting on and still have not received well so it's twenty twenty one. Now

and you're out seventy nine hundred dollars. Where does that put you guys financially It's definitely set us back as far as our goals. If we work This time at about six months of our lives which, at this we are even though what filing twenty twenty would look. Like simply don't have my twenty nine. In return on file, but I haven't violet. return. It makes me look like I'm doing what almost Yanks. How did you? about taxes before this, and how do you feel after certainly a palm comes: Actually you about process so convoluted. You think Married starting to new jobs would be fantastic and but a blessing turn into a nightmare and headache Christy where's experience is just one of many stories that highlights why turbo tax might not have the customers best interests at heart Worst of all turbo tat.

In their parent company into it have a new long term game plan to get you and keep you in a cycle of dead long after you file your taxes to unpack their plan and what it means for your money. I talked to personal finance expert day, Ramsay his nationally syndicated radio programme. The Ramsay show has eighteen million weekly listeners and is known for helping people get out of dead deal with their money. Problems and get ahead once and for all, and over thirty years he's in a whole. Lot of calls on taxes and has a whole lot of feelings. taxes Dave, you ve heard the Ben Franklin quote: nothing is certain except death and taxes which one do you look forward to more than all the return, but I put people seem just have so much anxiety around tax, as you ve talked to people for a thirty.

it is now, and taxes seem to be one of those things that every year it never gets easier for a lot of people. If they're gonna sell file, they go to turbo the majority of America's using this software. What are your thoughts on turbo tax and people using that the file Think I was like everyone else for a while. No big deal right or mean that they got a good piece of software and you can get your taxes filed and give their doing a great job, until we dug into a low better, we start learning how accompany actually functions, and then it got ici plus Linda because they released Vair, invest, sure, day, presentation from twenty twenty and this publicly accessible. Anyone can go check this presentation out it's a hundred and thirteen, ages, so it is a fine Saturday Reed, but there's an interesting things in their trouble. Sleeping up and go to slide eleven here, Turbo tax founded the customers number one problem was that they can make ends meet.

I know that's a shocker to you as you talk to people who are living paycheck to paycheck every day. but we know that- and you know and again when you read that focused on what matters most workers from such a good companies or something like that, such a good phrase, I find the number one dying in their serving their customers. They know I'm enough money to cover my bills and cover my obligations, too much months left at the monies way, we also right lotta people in America, and a mouth do you know, and so they discovered their tax cuts farmers are having trouble with their budget. That's what I just shocker yeah yeah! Well there strategy on slide. Twenty one, twenty two here to help the customer again meet their going unlock smart money decisions is what they're saying, and that includes helping concern must find the right financial products which they go. to say, includes credit cards, person, loans, car loans, insurance, home loans sounds like a lot of debt. To me. So how does using that price

Unlock smart money decisions and help these people make ends meet or here's what happens when you fool around the financial world, you quickly learn that the financial people, the banks and their part, nurse make brazilians of dollars off of credit cards off of debt off a view. Its unbelievably lucrative and so what happened was I'm sure these guys started out with an aspirational. They focused on what matters most to our customers very nice. and then they realized well the cost hurting if we can them. Any sense of relief and oh by the way we make a brazilian dollars while we're doing it, then the whole thing got toxic. Now, all of a sudden, the motivation turned o work a pile of freakin money off of these people who used for taxes and are living page to pay check, because if we

give them a sense that everything's ok by giving them a car. I'm not going to feel like that. Everything is ok, by the way we're going golf doing that and we did when we got you to use our tax software self they're trying to Hell these customers, by pushing them to debt products. We ve got it just unpack. Why are dead products? Bad for consume, because there's some listeners who were gone what's wrong with them, offer me a credit card and has a lower interest rates that that's a good thing Dave. Well, why is it a misnomer, the Dutchman leader, prosperity, it's a false on a logic, This idea, I'm gonna borrow my way out of debt or Emily and lower interest rates. That's gonna fix my dad in the in time. Oh wait, the started when I was just do a metaxas. So it's a complete hoodwink. Because it's actually the tax software now has become really a lead source for them to make The offer this other stuff- that's just wrong in terms of it really wasn't disclosed you. If you're

listing, and you never thought about this. You came to them innocently, do your taxes, but then had a different plan for you, and so that's just a bait and switch in all is just fascinated me that this most tax software tech company over here is becoming a financing company and you know what the way people lose their way is not in one fell swoop, they sit down and go hey. Let's go help. Give you broke it deeply. Indebted shorter high interest rates stated sit down one morning into that by degrees. I start gone well. Why? How can we help the customer and they believe in credit card? Should let us help em what we're gonna get him in better credit card and then we'll get on this and they get on that and look how much money we can make, and let's get a lot of that I mean just over the years. They lost their way death by a thousand cuts, the most productive square footage at the deal ship is a small office called the finance office. It makes that dealer more than any other sort of square footage anywhere, including them.

Hard car lot full of a thousand cars out there. So when you re We understand the mathematics of a card new partnership there, not the new car business. They give when a new car shutting get you in alarm and get you another shop gazettes worth make their money while they made some interesting financial decisions last year where they bought credit karma eight point one. billion dollars and on slide twenty four. They say that credit karma is the perfect partner, because it helps members find the right financial product for them based on credit and financial profile. So what does that mean? Is there any goal here? In acquiring credit, karma, no less like about dissonant credit karma does what they provide. You. Your credit bureau report, your final score, free and into a paid eight point, one billion dollars to for you a free service. Do you really believe something? This is great.

They know something. We doubt whether measures credit karma has all your data and based on it. data. They know how to write the algorithm to write the script now, to get you to buy credit her herds again. So this whole thing is all about its couched in the In that way, we can provide you attack software also weaken learner talk about because we know what our conversion rate is in, getting you guys in the credit cards, and they pay us a bounty to do that and, as a matter of fact, there com stinking little presentation here that word: shooting you're. Looking at public knowledge, they get a bounty on you, you know think about there. Ok, so they are trying to get a bounty. What's abound, about something that you get paid for killing or capturing. A person or an animal like coming. Eleven so we have a kind of problem right,

you can get in other ranchers will put a bounty on on a key out, and so people listening your bunch We can carry out there's a cross hair, it's rare on top of a rifle right now, right on your freakin head and the people, on the trigger are these, companies that we're talking about. They get a, two young you bring two years in baby. You get the bounty for taken the animal out and I mean this is where this rule you are and they are using their tax software. This free credit score. This debate is the trap they're trying to get you to get near so they can go boom. archer. Yet so, I'm alone again, this is fairly normal. It's not that weird! It's just that no one stops and those critical thinking says: oh look, they

credit karma. We have two different companies that have the same mission. Have a shared mission are right: there, traffic take you out there couldn't get you deeply and debt because they make more money on that. Then they do free credit karma our inexpensive tax software eggs. Well, let's look at when these coyoats that they have customer examples for slide, seventy eight here we ve got a retail employee named Tracy, and they want to help Tracy, so she's done her taxes year, one and by your three they're gonna help her by finance her wedding on their credit card allows helpful because we all should go in tat for a wedding come. Oh man, think America, you Dad. I'm thinking scales this nuttier than nerdy Yeah shows your one two and three, how you move from Lee

Free edition of Turbo Tax and the state edition in your one, and they made zero dollars on you. Can they were happy to do that? So, as you go long through the customer journey. From your wonder you to do your three We're seeing is. Is there starting to say, ok put your refund on a turbo tax debit card is really not the in the world, but the but if that is to lead you to the credit card the next year, where they get the bounty show, that's what it says on the they say bounty on here. Some other disturbing. I mean I Tell you what I'm a customer's humbling. I really want to be the bounty Duncan Don't don't got not it makes me it makes Moscow crawl. I don't. I am worried that there's something bad happening to me if they have been captured or slaughtered or something if, if you're, getting a bounty on, meanwhile,

so on side, sixty eight, they say their vision. Here's our vision, financial freedom. For all consumers, honest. That sounds a lot like you, vision here, Ramsay solutions. How are they different in reality?. Why? I think the argument justice? What what is fragile freedom, financial freedom, a lower interest on your credit card, then some people think it is. I don't being dawn broke years ago. I learned my lesson with that, I could borrowing money and then I had It was amazing law, Lummix, In common, I dont, given all the some stupid bank, I've got money tat, and so big power money and no dad is my idea of financial freedom, you're not vulnerable. When light shhh roller coaster comes along and take you out, but and your freedom is on my pay, a price to win. I'm alive like no one. Also that later, I can leave of an give me out just with generous living. Give.

No one else later, but you have to pay a price in You can't bar your way out of that and you can't walk round acting like a rich when you're not an really be, truly prosperous. That's not true. Financial freedom for years, you ve recommended me now, working with the taxpayer for situations complicated or you sell file, and you gonna go your own way, but recently you decide Craig, your own tax software? What was behind that? Well, because about half of the folks had been coming to us for tax help really didn't need. Spend two hundred dollars or three dollars for the tax professional desert. The return wasn't that complicated, and so they need to use something like a turbo tax or amply smart tax or something like that. That's an end expensive way in an efficient way, an accurate way to get your taxes file. We parted up with the folks attacks layer and your data won't be sold or used Shall you credit cards or anything else and were able to serve some of this real, easy file and also

water turtle tax is efficient. I think it's accurate, I'm actually no trouble with the actual tax software. It's just that you get sucked into a rattlesnake. By doing it, and so at what point do you go? I really do want my name in their database. I dont want them having of my income information from the tax return in their database. To show me, I'm not her register with credit, karma discredit, Karma has an agenda, private snakes, if you wanna play with them, but they buy logically blameless nature, eventually, gonna get bitten the tax software you file with may not sound like a big deal. But if we're going to be consumers who avoid the traps and understand the fine print, then that means Have to be intentional, with the companies we choose to use and even though death and taxes may be a part of life, debt doesn't have to be If you ve got a return? That's a little more complicated work with attacks.

Oh, who lives and breathes this stuff, and if you return It is pretty straightforward and your wife the cell file without a long term target on your wallet. You do have choices, Those choices is Ramsay Smart tax. It's a simple expensive, reliable way to get your taxes done. Bounty free, no hidden fees, no selling of your data and zero secret agenda to check it out just text, fine print one, two, three, three, seven, eight, nine. That's fine print, followed by the number one. All one word to three three: seven, eight, nine or just have

The link in the show notes you ve been listening to the fine print. You can find more information about this show, including a linked into its shareholder presentation. In the episode shown, our show is produced by Chris Right, errant chess leverage, Viva Daniel Christine and will rudder Blake Thomson is our executive producer com. George, camel and remember, tax returns are a lot like Mullins, it's all business up front and it's a party that no one wants to attend in the back and the longer they are comfortable. I get to learn more about Ramsay Smart Tax and this new show the fine print