Lower Laverne here we're taking our usual summer break so until we're back on air. Where showcasing a few programmes from our back outlook, as usual, the music spin, shortened the right reasons. This week's guest is the poet Wendy HU I cast away in February twenty nineteen previously sounds music radio broadcasts. the

castaway. This week is wendy cope one of britain's most popular contemporary poets. She has a reputation for her wit, her masterful use of poetry, many forms everything from vill analysis to haiku and for her subversive streak. She made her name with observations on love such as bloody men alike, bloody buses and brilliant parities of poets, including Seamus Heaney words with and ts elliot her aside. dick sense of humor is matched by her ability to articulate uncomfortable truths, with remarkable clarity and has subject matter is wide, ranging covering We think from love and psycho analysis to alcohol and radio, for it was teaching music at a primary school in london that kindled her creative flame. When her first collection of poetry, making cocoa fa kingsley AMOS was published in nineteen eighty six, it became a best seller, though her

mutation is an overnight success with a knack for parodying, the overwhelmingly male grates, if the form didn't initially india her to the overwhelmingly male establishment. However, since she described them as wicked, is a generous tonic and wild as pension plans, it seems the feeling was mutual, at least at first now, in her seventies, she's one of Britain's premier poets. She sold her entire personal archive to the british library and recently published her fifth collection. She has no plans to retire the only excuse for being a poet. She says is that you could help. It wendy cope well come to desert island to her. Thank you. Now any reader would be struck by the emotional range and the many tonal shifts in your work. Humor and sadness often bound up together in poems, like loss of very short poem that appears to be about the end of a relationship of might actually be more concerned with the loss of a corkscrew, but I know you dislike being referred to as a comic poet. So how would you characterize your work? I dont know

And being referred to as opposed to sometimes funny, I dont, like expression, light verse, because it seems to imply that if something is humorous, senate sort of lightweight an unimportant so I just like to be referred to as a good poet as a child in the fifties. You described the poetry you and counted as like cabbage green good for you, but not very interesting of all right. What do you look for in a poem today? Gosh? I I look for poland has some effect on me. The moves me in some way it might be, it makes me laugh, it might be. It makes me feel tearful it be that it makes me think and others the things that you look for in your own poems as well, when you working herself when I'm myself, I just preoccupied with say, what I want to say what I think be true accurately as possible and illegal. Put him on the go and you feel is going well. It is a very good feeling and how do you

the prospect of being cast away on a desert island. I think I do terrified. Actually I mean I will return. If I having no access to doctors or medicine, it's a fair, fair. As to being alone. I did live alone for quite a long time. Before I met my partner, I didn't like it much being a freelance writer? Obviously, you do have to spend time alone and sort of dream time time just for thinking when you don't pay to be doing anything goes I've got a room of my own in my house where I couldn't write and now, I am happy to be on my own quite a lot in the daytime. It is really nice know this could be someone their meal times and, yes, that's the difference with the desert island You could be sharing music from your life with us? How important is music to you? It is Listen to me, I play the piano and the guitar when the recorder and I was in the school choir and when I was a primary school teacher, I did lots of music with the children, and that was great,

so tell me about your first disk today. Why be chosen this one? I love hymns. And I think him to the fruits me quite a lot, and this is a him I've known since I was a junior school. I love the tune. taluses cannon alike- words to buy bishop thomas. Can they were? in full, the scholars of which to college I lived. If quite long tankers look talk there, so This all sorts of connections with this the the the

the good already today, my god, this night, music, composed by thomas talus sung by the cambridge singers, directed by John RADA wendy cope, There is sometimes quite long break between your collections. How much of what you write makes it into the books that listen as might have a home on the shelves. Quite a lot. Doesn t actually sometimes because It's a poem that might upset somebody somewhere because I'm not sure if it's good enough, but I shall at my next thing, I'm hoping to do is to do a collected, poems and if I should go a lot of uncollected poems? I now think I will sure about them, but I now think that not too bad. I wonder why

the poems that might upset people go, I'm quite keen to know their location. Will I don't hear anything away, I'm out and vanished. You swore has such a big archive. This poems I've put aside for ten is almost in a file called failures. And unfinished, and then I've through them and found things are actually. I saw fine. So if they dont tell anything away, you might change your mind about it. Are you good knowing when piece of poetry is finished, yeah what happens is all right, a poem enough, It's finished, but then We going over in my head over the next day or two and I'll realize, there's a line or word that isn't quite right and oh hell. I got to do some more work on this and it's when that stops happening when I can, going over in my mind without saying oh hell, I've got to do some work on this. Then it's finished when your subconscious mind becomes tranquil. As I mentioned in my introduction, you are known for expertly parodying or the poets, and I could never look at bob black sheep in quite the same way. Once I dread

your vision in the style of fat words with why? Why do that? All this was, if I don't do it much now, but it was a phase I went through really when I was learning to write. I went to some very good evening closest run by blake morrison, where. every other week we took our homework, but on the other weeks we looked at the work of a contemporary poet side looked happily the work of loss of contemporary poets and I think, will No, I can see this is good, but is actually not how I want to write, so I just We have made fun of it and it was very good exercise because too bright, good parity of somebody's work. We have to look at it very carefully, and so you learned a lot. I think the critical perspective on that is very interesting because is often described by critics and engender terms. You know that it is a woman artist, reacting to the great solve this very male cannon. Yet is that how you say it does want? Yes, I mean I did when I started writing women poets. Published at the time were very, very much in the minority, and I felt that

wasn't much encouragement for women to tell it how it is about what happens between men and women, but I started anyway, and how much better things now do, you think, is completely changed. There are far far bigger proportion of women being published now than that back in the nineteen seventeen nineteen eighties tell me about your second disk today. What are we going to gonna next? This is from the mikado, my father loved, given sullivan answer, I used to get. can do it rather Actually. Actually, when I was little go to local, two productions and sometimes to see the dog cart company. This voice theater, and I grew to love it. I'm very annoyed by people who sneer at it, because I think gilbert was undoubtedly a genius and Sullivan right. Some really lovely tunes three mile little Tom did saying willow tape willow.

Willow and I said to him dicky bird: why do you sit singing willow willow willow? Is it weakness of intellect, but they are right or wrong? Look tough! In your little inside with a shake of your little laugh. willow Will it Well Yes, that is, as disease singing willow to below two will and a cold perspiration raw or willow reload Will he saw at peace

take belloo from the mikado by gilbert and Sullivan sung by John reed wendy cope. Do you remember your first introduction to poetry, my father, you that generation that had learned poems off by heart at school? So he would decide things like the charge of the light brigade or bits from the robot. if obama km we didn't encourage it. You know you don't your father to embark on the charge of the like eight at lunchtime, I grew to like it and highlights that stuff better than the weedy pose about nature that we did school. They lived in the fifty What was considered suitable for little girls was lots of ferries and flowers and things, and I lived in a london supper. I didn't really get that did you write as a child when I was six seven, I to write stories in an exercise book. I'm used to say I want to be a writer and

I forgot all about it. You know I sort of gave up on the idea. I thought. Oh everybody wants to be a writer. I probably can't be and didn't did you come back to me? She loves him, my late twenties that this was what I really want to do, and I'm not really surprised that gonna be all right, but I am surprised that are going to be a poet. I thought Stories for children cosette was what I knew about when I was seven and you mentioned, the influence of hymns knew you had quite a religious of bringing in a what with inferences there. Well for once, I went boarding school when I was seven and we ve taken to an ugly can service every morning and we had to sit right through the healthy and it was. We boring. My mother was evangelical that caused a few difficulties, because I was taken to hear biddy. Graham when I was nine years old. The eventual referenda and unity did the sting of getting people to come forward to say it to Jesus Christ and cause. I was only nine. I thought I'd better. Do this because otherwise I'll go to Hell. Simon

up to the front- and I was the only one because it was a relay to our local baptist church and it wasn't a good experience these days, I'm an agnostic, but I loved the liberal. the middle of the road church of england, the book of common prayer and hymns. But I dont have a lot of time for evangelicals, whatever life at home. How would you describe your family. My father was old, he was, I smile of my father very much, but was tired. You know, and we often had to be kept out of the way you come home and deepest managing director of department store, my mom, worked with him. She'd been his secretary before they were married, so they come home, talk business and we too have to be kept out of the way. Often I had a difficult relationship with my mother, which was a lot to do with this sum. If only you had facing Jesus business, she was, controlling and it was quite difficult and anyway I was sent away when I was seven to boarding school. Yes, you ve written about that. Experience

it's seven years old and she didn't cry because you know you'd read til, you know, you know that one. Yes tell me about that. Me, what are your memories of of leaving for boarding school because he write that you never really came back. Yes exactly and yes, they decide best me to go in the train to make some friends I was taken to. I think it was incrustation and I said goodbye my parents and I got on the train and the first thing I discovered was idle You've broken the rules because I had to watch him have louder what you're not allowed to watch and then, when I got there I found out. I broke the rules again because I had a torch. The sound like extremely sensible things to take with you so she going away was difficult, but once I settle down, I did have some fun I mean it wasn't all terrible. time some music at tell me about your next choice today. Why have you chosen this one mozart? Well, there was a important moment when I was a secondary school. I wasn't sure if I liked classical music or not, I quite often found it boring

but one day a music teacher came to occur music lesson with an l, p, of most sites. I decline enough music and played it to us, and I just is absolutely wonderful. I just love this and in I've loved moot sought ever since so the I have chosen is a lovely duet from the magic flute, the the it is the hmm. So hmm, hmm is I Is

the the the. pop the jew et from outside the magic flute act, one some by carried to canada and olaf there, with the academy of Saint Martin in the fields orchestra conducted by some level, mariner wendy, While you were away a boarding school, your parents would come to visit you, but you ve described feeling tense when they did. Why was that? Well you settle down at school and then Europe come see you and this whole thing of parting all over again, so the today, this is cloud over the day that you got to say goodbye at the end of it.

In all three times a year for the holidays three times a year for half terms, was all this packing and unpacking and saying goodbye settling down all over again and are sometimes used to fit. It just be easier. To just do one either be at home at that all the time or at school over time so permeated by a kind of constant anxiety that not only will sadness- I mean you know like I, it was. It was sadness about having to say good bye to everyone at home. Yo We are not allowed describes the palace frustration that many children feel towards quite dominant parent. Yet you know that that line things will get better if you're, very good it. How much If your own experiences in that work, how hard oh, was absolutely about my childhood? Yes, how did you have? to try to please her mother pretty hard, I got very good at it. I got very good

knowing how not to upset her, but it wasn't very good for me having to do that all the time and what happened? What was the impact on you. I got depressed, I mean I am I and I was depressed. It'll be through most of my childhood. I was depressed. I was a bit overweight and I think, and I eat all of that- didn't really get over that until in my late twenties, when I went in psychoanalysis and that helped a lot were you able to talk about this with your mother mean, I know that that poem is in the collection, family, values and that wasn't published until after her death. No that's one sort of reason. I put poems aside I did once when I was a university and I've home provocation and I was very depressed at you: what's twice taught my mother, but it and what she said was only you had facing Jesus? That was all she had to say about it. I

I preserved myself by becoming quite secretive. You know I I performance for my mother and my real self was was hidden away. I go to them it's a good. Tell me about your fourth disc today. What have you chosen and why have you gone for this one? Well, after I finished university, I became a primary school teacher for quite a long time and mind on amuse. It was then very useful because in primary schools there was want someone who can play the piano and so on, and so I, a lot of music with the children, including singing with them, and that is really one of the things I miss about teaching I loved singing with the children so chosen some. William, but we used to sing on your mommy's, the the hobby lobby day lysenko and

eleven is very hard to see. That said, no, and then your mommy's go to bed for you to buy some cool tunes Curtis candy performed by robin whole Jimmy Macgregor and the galley arts wendy cope your choice than to take you back to your time as a music teacher, but there were other contenders and were faded like this one, and so did I I think there are some others. I think their favorite songs were probably football crazy and there's a wholly my bucket took on. I wasn't going to have any either of those on my desert. Island could have been a first for design, but I understand- so you graduated from oxford in nineteen sixty six. Why did you start teaching it was in west hum Lucian many of the old kayo that you're well yeah. Well, by the time I left oxford? I didn't have much confidence. I didn't know what to do with myself and because I

but history at oxford. Nine, you, I didn't want to be history teacher I went did this crossing primary school teaching. so I mean also, those pie was a little bit of wanting to do something. Useful do you feel about the experience and about that choice. Looking back one in some ways, it was good for me because I really think that my work as a teacher help bring out the creative side of me before that. Thought of myself ass, a brainy person who wasn't creative but It was the arrow when there was a lot of emphasis on creative work in schools and size, doing a lot with poetry, a music with children, and I think that one cup, something in me, I went on these music courses where we made up our own music in groups in a sort of avant garde. Idiom that met you didn't need to know about traditional harmony. annotation and it was such fun, I just absolutely loved it and I started yeah I'd like to be a composer, but then I thought to myself what actually I was only average music school, but what I was

pretty good at was english, say prayers. I try this creative thing with english and also as encouraging the children to write poems anti channel poems and you have to be careful, but I could see what it was needed, better but Maybe I'm gonna have a go this in my spare time, so that was how it started and what we writing about I feelings because writing potent darted about six months after I was in analysis, knows getting in touch with feelings, but I needed to express let's go to the music. It's your fifth disquieted chosen it yeah. This is some the beatles blackbird. This may sound a bit self dramatizing, but when I started writing, as I was emerging from quite a severe depression I really did identify with the burden this song, I mean. I now understand that currently says it's about civil rights. Why didn't know that? To me it was about singing. in the dark.

And also realizing began to write poach. I realise this is what I really want to do, and so you are only waiting for this moment to arise is a line that resonated very much with me. the dead of night. Take these broken wings and learn to fly all your life, and you are only waiting for this mom and to say the blackbird singing in the dead of the beatles with blackberry. So wendy cope your fan despite satirizing lennon and mccartney in print in the past yeah.

it was around nineteen. Seventy three, as you said that you decided to enter psychoanalysis, am tell me more about that. I think you ve been quoted in the past a saint, I was afraid I'd become a bag. Lady serious you when he said that will I think I've been depressed for a long time, but my father died in nineteen, seventy one and then he got worse and I was really fun. Doing earning my living quite a strain. So yourself the fear? I become a bite. Lady casinos was quite anxious, but earning living, but anyway, I am found a way to psychoanalysis, I thought you had to be rich, but it turned out. It was a clinic whereas taken on as a clinic patient, and I still had to pay, but not nearly as much as the private rate and I wilson analysis for about ten years and its It's a slow process, but gradually I became less depressed, you're working with Is called author s camouflage I my first book

dedication to off escutcheon of Kosovo just thought it was a joke, de nosey. Innocent eight would be that it was TAT she was his name. So why did you dedicate the book to him because he told me so much I mean you know. I was just a precedent, school teacher now has been published by favouring vapor. That's quite a leap, obviously this this creative side, but I mean more did therapy give you as it as a person yeah, it's a question of being in touch. This one's feelings in it. When someone ask me: how do you feel about something I would come up with reasonable answer in owns. Say? Are you angry with me, and I say no, of course not because I have no reason to be angry with you, but, when I began to realize was the inner? Often you don't know what you're feeling so Sometimes the thing You do things, you say all things. You dream about, of course, that very important help future find out what you are really feeling. What was that it s like, because there must have been a lot of stuff in that I had to come out. Yes,

plus costs, a lot of anger mean the analysts had quite tough time with me cause I used to shout at him and argue with him a lot and called him rude names, and but that was improved. because you know my father had been old and I was afraid if I did anything bad, it might kill my father, so being would be rude and aggressive to the analyst and realizing nothing terrible was going to happen was very useful process. I'm used to think I am going to you know, go to the clinic and say he's no good, and can I have a different analysen air, he presumably took it all in his stride. Well I mean I don't know how it felt to him, but we ended being really quite good friends when she's not strictly orthodox, but we can make us on well, you ve described Therapy as learning to be yourself who did use, discover yourself to be by the end of that process, and how different was that person from the person you expected to meet gosh well more creative and happier, I suppose.

Yeah, I mean things it doesnt, do everything I'm still. quite neurotic enough to get by as a writer even after ten years in psychoanalysis, and also if you are it's about telling the truth include the truth about your own feelings, and I just don't see how knowing self better, could possibly make someone worse. Writer, let's taken check. This is your sixth today wisely chosen it will. This is both my foot the composer, but this particular piece of bark is what we had it our wedding. I lived with local, since one thousand nine hundred and ninety four we didn't get round to getting married until two thousand and thirteen signed by while we weren't rushing into anything anthem. We, The very small, quite wedging, with just ready if there, but we did have music. And during the signing of the register, we had this movement from the bach double violin. Concerto,

part of his second movement books, double violent concerto, indeed minor performed by tackled nicky zackie and alexander yeah block off with the capella easter platonic orchestra conducted by oliver doc, nanny wendy, coop

me by being published for the first time. How did it happen? oh for years I was sending poems too little magazines and they were turning them down. Superboss meant what six years being rejected, then through being a blake morrison's class, he became partridge the tea or lesson one time. I took a poem along that he liked and he put in I'm sorry, supplement and Ben I got some pose published in a magazine called quarto and that choice- everything however, wrote to me: and said we like you to send us imposed for us to consider- and this was most exciting moment of my whole history career. I got that letter from fake fake paper. I know the time when I began I in the night, he seventies. I said hoped I would get some things published, but I didn't dream I get published by favouring vapor and then that he would actually get on the bus activist and inner, not poacher, bacillus actual beset it is so

it was all very exciting and I was very lucky, but in some ways it is quite difficult because suddenly the phone rang all the time with people want me to do things and often ask me to do things inadequate amounts of money. Before I realized I have some people from faber took me out to lunch. A few weeks after, but was published, said do anything for less than a hundred pounds. This was in nineteen, eighty six and I said, but I've already agree to do loads of six hundred pounds good, but there are other things may be realised because I wasn't in a relationship at the time. Is the six This is a big empty for hunger. Anyone to share it with how did the people this is too, you react. What about your mother? What did she make of your poetry? I think she really understood, and she didn't like. The book. Cosette was sex in it I mean a friend of mine that came with me, see my most unstuck father, because she had re mary. They ve no idea was to they dont understand it too, so immense

and in my introduction, a certain amount of antipathy between you and some of the poetry establishment in those early days tell me but more about what happened. Well, because I seem to suddenly appear from nowhere and get all this publicity. I I understand it was hard for other poets, and so inevitably there was a certain amount of of hostility and has affected my relationship with the poetry world ever since it hasn't completely died away. Even now. met a young man whose at university much to write his long lonely say about my work and he told us you and you two hadn't read me so the guy civil I'll I'll, give you a copy of the book. He said I wouldn't read that book, even if you gave it to me and I before I met knocked- and I had a brief relationship with somebody who knew about poetry and never read me and then, when I was involved with him, he read my books and check your good poet, yoga like it was really surprising. So,

what's your take on that man, I mean I can get very upset about it. Sometimes but on the other hand I have a lot of readers. and I'm someways I've been very lucky eminent by book, so well by poetry, standards. When I, poetry readings, I get big audiences and people very nice to me so that the other side it tangier, piece of music: this is your seventh describing chosen it Television series unforgotten with the wonderful nickel walkers one of the detective over opening title says he song on this. One gradually grew on me and by the time we were watching the third series that every time we, what should I say I really liked this song and so unknown to me. Laughlin bought the cd and then he came home where they see I've got something for you listen to track eleven, and it was this song that was such a nice thing to do.

It is fair Side down way Paradise. Oh all meeting by wonder: Wendy coke, the lyrics to that song still fascinating and beguiling you. I don't really understand what is about, but I did wonder if it might be about sleuth, because if people

of being upside down or maybe about they thereof side down. I owned grants in his arms s. You mentioned the idea of being one person in your relationship with your mother and then another the rest of the time and then going through therapy. The days. I wonder how comfortable you are in your own skin and how comfortable you are being yourself and telling it like you said: gosh well much more than I used to be. I still sometimes, can only get the courage to write by saying to myself what they're all hate this blanket right anyway and that country frame of mind and then I promised myself, I'm not going publish if it's so important to write what you want to write and not be a dick, turn by the thought of poets. You don't like you all people might not want publish it all people who might be crossed with you, because it's not politically correct all those things, as it's so important, just to sort of push all the

way and write what you want to write and then afterwards you can decide whether to publish it, having been poet, for so many years has changed. You do you think changed my life. I mean I've earned living without having to have a job changed me. Well, I suppose it's bits, to have done yes, because what is interesting and when that first book came out and sudden I felt successful you then you back in the whole story, if your life changes as your life changes, because you say- oh it was leading up to this, but I didn't know that So a reframing Yeah The time is a more music. This is your eighth. Dare tell me about this one but she's back again, but it's an arrangement that only discovered recently in the vanguard of course. I wish I've known for a long time. This is played by a trio of them. base mandolin and yo yo more on the cello playing the corral.

The Yeah the

Yeah box away the voice is calling us played by yoyo ma christine early and edgar man, so and he cope where castillo away with the bible and the committee works of shakespeare. You can also take a book of your choice. What will it be? Well, I thought There's no decided that the bible in shakespeare wicked me plenty of serious reading sidelights. Something made me laugh, so I think I'll, take the complete moles worse, which is about this, be making be lost its house eleven years old and he feels like an old friend so be nice to have him there. It's What about your luxury item? I have to have rushing materials really us, it's boring, because this is what all right to say, but at least you know if I could write that would help, and

no one to talk to. But if you can communicate with a piece of paper, someone might read it sooner or later and what about? If you had to save one track from your eight debate would be without double warning concerto, just because I like it or not, wendy cope. Thank you very much for sharing your desert island discs with us. Thank you. A day hope you enjoy my conversation with Wendy. I like the idea of her chortling over the antics of bulls worthwhile she's on her island. Over the decades, many poets have been cast away, including lamb, sissy, Jackie K, Benjamin's F, an idea. This lock head John eager and philip larkin and backing ninety ninety. Similarly huge, Seamus Heaney, where you are a boy poet, Seamus. Is there such a thing? Well, most children,

probably have the solitude and distance and fear of the world which are we associate with a truly imaginative being and the the onset of capacity and the onset of capability in the answer said of the adequacy vanishes, the poet. So I think that and many born poets and that's spacious, a little fearful. part of yourself. Ass were the poetical being resides, probably innocence. I was born, but I was so many people are born. They reading and about your roots, your your background, now it it sounds. Very poetic. Hunting with the reality was worthy rio if he wasn t the real or when I describe it in work. It immediately becomes, I feel, like a mythic status. It is true that there was a house with trees around the thatch under the were horses in the fields and

people came to the well for water and so on, so when you're describing them describing a mediaeval community? You It was a farmer who was farmer, but he had to say. Certain freedom, I mean he had the farming but actually he wasn't enslaved that is the killing thing about small farming is to be enslaved day and night and day after day, and he had a certain panel with his stick ongoing and he was able to have people at home working on the farm and and inside the house there were two very important women in your life. Well, indeed, every country those that I had really to mammies. I had I had my own mother, of course, boot bobby My father's sister Mary was in situ. In the house when my mother came to live there, which bury the father and I suppose it says a lot about to land. The father sister that

she and my mother worked out. together in in in harmony when every day, for example, beg bread. She also move because she was there to assist and- and my mother was much were involved. Necessarily with the whole business of youngsters in our family came very quickly one after the other. How many there were nine of us and think go you're, probably six. It was born incited years. Will you the old idealistic his and it was a very high. Here was a very secure, was secure. There was no menace other than the medicine that are in the imagination of the dark and the trees and the smuggling of wild things on the ceiling at night. Seamus heaney talking to sue you'll find almost per and over two thousand other additions in the desert in discs back catalogue,

the still, there get there's someone, I want you to meet the name is shown their sixteen and there in trouble followed on this journey by subscribing to power on bbc sand the world is dying. It's time to take action hurry.