Dame Glenys Stacey has spent 40 years in public service, including high profile work as a regulator in key areas of national life. She has just stepped down after her five year term as Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Probation during which she criticised the decision to privatise the Probation service calling it “irredeemably flawed”. Glenys was born in Walsall Wood in the West Midlands, where her father was a painter and decorator for the council and her mother worked full time in Union Locks. She left school at 16 and her first job was in an explosives factory. She became a legal executive before deciding to take A levels and then study law at the University of Kent. She was the founding CEO of the Criminal Cases Review Commission, set up by the government in January 1997, after the miscarriages of justice in the cases of the Birmingham Six and the Guildford Four. As Chief Executive of Animal Health, she oversaw the management of the outbreak of foot and mouth in 2007 and then led Ofqual for five years, during the reform of GCSEs and A levels. She was awarded a Damehood in 2016 for her services to education and earlier this year she became a founding Board Member of the Centre for Data Ethics and Innovation, an advisory body established by the government. DISC ONE: Loch Lomond – Sir Harry Lauder DISC TWO: Harry Belafonte - Scarlett Ribbons (For Her Hair) DISC THREE: T.REX –Ride a White Swan DISC FOUR: Peter Gabriel – Solsbury Hill DISC FIVE: Wagner - The Ride of the Valkyries DISC SIX: Second movement of Saint Saen’s Piano concerto number 2 in G minor DISC SEVEN: Bob Marley and the Wailers - I Shot the Sherriff DISC EIGHT: Soave sia Il vento from Mozart’s Cosi fan tutte BOOK CHOICE: Oxford Book of English Short Stories LUXURY ITEM: A selection of seeds CASTAWAY'S FAVOURITE: Solsbury Hill by Peter Gabriel Presenter: Lauren Laverne Producer: Cathy Drysdale Photo: BBC / Amanda Benson
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Pvc sounds music. Radio broadcasts, hallo unlearned event, and this is the desert island discs. Podcast. Every week I ask my guest to choose the eight tracks book and luxury they want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island for rights reasons. The music is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening. my castaway this week, is deemed Lenny stacy. She spent almost forty years in public service, much of it as a regulator. It's often her job to tell the government of the day truth. They don't want to hear she specializes
the invisible work that underpins many of the assumptions we make every day that our food will be safe to eat our justice system fit for purpose or that exam results can be trusted. Her job is to create a system of checks and balances that can withstand crises and the political vicissitudes of any given moment in a world where one goes watchdogs and select committees, don't always get the best press she's a powerful advocate for their ability to hold institutions to account she says fairness is at the root of it all you walk into chaotic situations and create order out of them. Dame grana stacy welcome today's island discs. Thank you very much. So tell me more about the appeal of walking into those chaotic situations and creating order. Most people would run a mile. Why don't you want, I think, a lot of these jobs, your work, into an organization that in one way Another need some sort of help and if you ve got the experience and you can
What are some of those we d grisly problems have been lying around for a while. It is very satisfying to make things work better, but also to show good people with a working hard in difficult circumstances that it cannot should get better. They can have someone a champion who, who make it work for them and for wider society. you never in an interview for top drawer, Rita, get told quite what the issue is. All you have to get through the door and find out if they ever been any particular nasty skeletons. I've had situation. Well, it turns out. The organization is almost ludicrously undefined for example, and then you you're pretty quickly into a battle to get that sorted. That can often involve some rather testing conversations with ministers and perhaps one or two appearances before select committee to sort. Can you give us any examples, criminalize review commission that was set up from scratch? I was its first chief executive, terribly exe,
getting to be looking at miscarriages of justice, but it turned out that the presumption made the funding presumption was that we could review a miscarriage in three days work. Well, if you look at something like bentley, were henriette You know when those cases arrived, they arrived in great furniture vans. We were simply not into better do didn't near that time. That was a complete iran resumption and we have to get that sorting evening described as a serial regulator and worked across a huge variety of institutions in sectors. Animal health, probation us a criminal case reviews. As you mentioned, exam qualifications, there are very complex and the role of very different worlds. What do you need to succeed in them? While you need a jolly good to bag? Really you bring something to the pole. Tea. But equally there are not a good people thy working alongside you and they ve got the knowledge in the technical expertise in the subject that you are in, but I do find increasingly in my life that knowing what you're talking about
So you're, not speck lifting you ve got the evidence to show. No, Are you talking about underrated these days? I think maybe maybe you're right get enough press. You gonna share eight wonderful tracks with us today: time for the first tell us what we can to hear why you ve chosen it. It is going to be locked, clement and Some have chosen. This is because it off, but such form memories of scotland as a child, but my parents were were working and my bra and I was shipped off to Glasgow where my father sisters lived issue for the whole of the summer. and there was afraid him up there. I had cost So it does not take older than me, so I thought they were to spend. Can you stylish and edgy and fun, and we just did thing I wasn't quite allowed. A home can ring well getting up in the middle, the night and raising the kitchen remember, making crisps fry
nah potatoes to look at the moon with my cousin does he said you could make kristen? I didn't believe it. I thought I came out of it. The packet officer, who was just thumb, grateful, lonnie bread. Right Where why one. Bob, clement sung by sahara, loader taking you back to holidays in glasgow, dame planet stacy
you just sit down at the end of your five year term, ass, her majesty's chief inspector of probation. What was your biggest challenge in that role? The first, I think, is that the way probation is being delivered at the moment simply doesn't caught it and we were inspecting and saying some really rather dismal performance, so at first It was to make sure the inspectorate itself could inspect well enough and fairly enough to make sure that it was making really solid, founded judgments about what was actually seeing. Secondly, I think it was to set standards for probation because actually government its change quite radically how probations delivered in part of that it had thrown sort of expectation out of the window. So we have to really start and say what good probation should actually look like, but then, thirdly- and I suspect over time most importantly, it was persuading government that in privatizing much approval Sean without may have had good intentions. It actually wasn't working.
As intelligent and things did need to change, the system was, As you say, pop privatized and twenty fourteen private company started monitoring, low and medium risk. Offenders in- and your report, as you also said, was pretty damning- is that it was evidently floored. What's the impact of the failings in the system that something like two hundred and fifty thousand people who are being supervised, that's right about a quarter of a million people are subject: probation services each and every year, and if those services aunt delivered well, then I guess there more likely to re offend the prison population is like it to go up was well, but more than that, if you think it through those that commit domestic violence there, their wives partners Farmers are leaving a feared every day of yet another result. People are living in secure lies, more people will be sleeping on. This streets and homeless and begging, and so the social implications of poor probation This is all quite profound. We tend to focus on the same pollution. re offending. I understand that, but the war
does social effect for probation services. Eighties, very serious indeed. So, what's gonna happen as the result of your recommendations, so government has decided to move towards a unified model with much It now being provided through the national probation service, which is a state, run service, so we're going to get a more consistent model for probation delivery and it should be at a higher standard. The risks painted amount, because the national pension savings are performed better standards, but it's not straight forward to make this move in a twenty one. Companies now need to come in, for example, into the np assiduities quite technically challenging to do it right button. the justice secretary. Recently, the tory party conference promised that the tories would fix the sentencing system and make sure serious criminals face tougher jail terms. What would the impact that b on the service? From your point of view, while it's difficult to save us?
in, but one might imagine that those then being released after longer sentence may have less of a commitment to reforming eliza, may be some resentment built up during prison time as well tempered next piece of music today, together, they were going to hear really old, ditty scarlet ribbons harry better fountain of chasing, because this was an important song to me when I was a small child. My father was a pension. Decorator worked hard at work, but my mom had a load of projects whose aim is well, you re doing the kitchen or building an extension, but he was all were singing and he used to bear this out, perhaps while wallpaper missy. being an looking at me. Smiling. We had a lovely happy so my parents were just great parents This year's work, whose shut auguste needs were at dawn.
Let ribbon not one written scarlet ribbons sung by hurry by the deemed lenin. Daisy. Tell me elaborate more right home life, you born nineteen, fifty full, that's right in the west midlands. Net walsall would lose unity as we already know that your dad was a criminal, and I know that you learned court, an important lesson from here. You dancing wendy work drugs that that's right say I suppose innocent I was watching him working and singing wants a home, and I said it must be great. enjoy your jobs much and he said, I'm not sure I hate it, but it's what I do to earn a living, and it was a real shock to me at the time that people did jobs that they did particular enjoying oarsmen living costs. It makes a low descends, but at the time
was a real lesson for me, and I respected him for that and it sounds like you. had quite an optimistic attitude at both your parents did they do they want to achieve things? I lived on it accounts with state, and my mother was the only woman. I knew that worked and she worked in a factory in she. Did it get things for us as a family? Look as though The time I was in junior school, they had a caravan south of western superman, we used to go there having at the weekend we went on, to not troops? We had a car. They were purposeful in building a good life for us. What are you interested in when you allow, when I desperately wanted a dog, but was you that I did a lot of reading I had liberated scientist was allowed, go, get anything I got into bed of deepwater once when I got byron, not real as in quite when I was going to be reading. Man then into my teens
the great english teacher, you suggest, bring great hold all full of books and just take them out on the desk, and you could take what you light sake. I like things, I see peace now that a good amount of dickens and in a day of the truth is that was just wonderful. You know those sorts of books. It really Have you a chance to look at new experiences in life from a different perspective? You mean to ban on sea in somerset when you're a teenager that can be quite tricky age to relocate. It was. It was a bit of a shock to the system. I was fifteen and I've been inquiry. Progressive school and then move to a girl's grammar school. which seemed to me at the time to be tremendously of ash. So, yes, that was a bit of a struggle. I had a and that Mary she happened to move from london at the same time, and so we ve natural, so mates and we loved music. So we would save our pocket money and get see what other bands recruit, while speaking of which, it's time for your next disc, is it going to be over. This is to your ex and ride a white swann,
stick when tea rats came along, they were just so different undue. They would just gorgeous as well mary, and I see them at the coastal hole, and it was just such a fund testing experience, and is it true that you invited backstage tell us whether oh yes, we did get an invite backstage. We didn't Go because marries father was outside in the car patiently waiting to pick us up, probably just as well that we have ever been thwarted. This would have been very different. Apsyrtus does island discs, Ashley fox might have had a different light,
I don't like this morning, teen racks
and write a white spawn deemed lenin stacy. You once described herself, I think, as the living embodiment of social mobility. To what extent was that potential spotted early by your school teachers and I'm not sure how to own shape to clearly, I didn't think I was that bright school. When I was in junior school, I recollect class being told that we will never go to get anywhere because the way we spoke, we will have less mittens accents. I remember thinking dying well there you gave them never mind. I wasn't not ambitious. What about at home? What did your parents and thinking you were going to achieve? My parents were really prior when I pass eleven plus went grammar school, but they expect me to leave after my own levels,
that's what girls did at the time in their view. So I think they're expectation, watertight, leave, school, get a reasonable job and then marry a decent guy. You did leave straight after euro levels and water first job you walked into. Yes, it was an explosive manufacturing fashion. not far from when I lived, and so I went along as an issue scientific officer. I must say that I didn't cover myself in glory there and I left out about eighteen months. I looked in the local paper and saw a job advertised. It was actually looking for training legal executives and I thought that sounded really ground and indeed I loved it, and I was very fortunate. Actually one of the partners eyes working for, took me to one side one day and set me look. You can continue doing the job you're doing, but you get that
least interesting work and you won't be paid very much I this are. You ought to think about getting qualified as a lawyer and to do that you need to get to university and I was getting out with a guy who needed to get a level english. So we went to night cause his together. Not the most romantic thing. Is it but anyway, and we split up halfway through that, I thought I'll have again at a level or so I bought a cobbler textbooks and registered myself to take it. You said earlier that you weren't very ambitious as a young person, but I'm wondering when that started, because you're obviously applying yourself therein and taken steps towards a big of bright. If you, gentlemen, discovered there was. I really love the law, not ass, the black letter of the law, but the way played out it's all about people and relationships. Really the black letters, one thing that you knew how someone behaves in relationship or how they give evidence in a witness box, and it makes a difference to the way the law is applied. You made to university rather at the last moment. I think
What do you remember about your first day. I remember being aware of the range of people at university. You know there were lots of people from all different backgrounds, including quite privileged backgrounds, and a lot of very well educated people I felt a bit daunted by that, and I didn't really know how to study is. I was aware that this was going to be quite tough, might work for about three years in a month, so I was eligible for full. In fact that turned out to be more money and I've been learning through working the pie on the legal firm, so I felt relatively well it's time for your next disquiet chosen this one. So I ve chosen pisa, Gabriel soldiery, who am I ve chosen it because it's just such an uplifting song. What's up mad with children wheezed play this year after year. Everyone sang along with it, and I think it so
strong message really that life can send all sorts of unexpected events. The way, sometimes, they can turn out really well allowed out your pc, Gabriel and souls bree hill. Will it back in
raising the unexpected team glennie stacy, so you graduated from the university of kent nineteen, seventy seven in the next few years, so you become a solicitor maria first husband and become a mother to fester, Jes. Then, eighteen months later Tom, what was the plan? We were expecting to combine work and family life or not because many women wouldn't in those days that's right at the time the expectation was live work and I do it, although I did do you a couple of men wings a week of work from home. Things do change, though, for me when my son was too, because my then husband unexpectedly was. It unemployed and say is pretty clear to us that the sensible thing to do is for me to get back to work. I was dismissed. Right could earn enough money to keep the family here. How did you get the prospective going by why I wasn't looking forward
it all. I remember telling my mother about it under her approach was so to be robust to new. She said what you ve spent years, studying at the states expenses about time. You went to work and paid it back. There has rightly know when I went back to work. I did find it hard initially just be From my children- and I did find this new determination in may, I thought the next time of promotional peut comes up on going to apply for it, and that was the first time I felt any sort of ambition. He made the move from private law to your first big job in ninety. Ninety seven, as you mentioned, that was a ceo of the criminal cases review chemist. I'm did you come to apply I'd been working in the job I was then in for about ten years for the family were growing, and I came to point people listening might have recognized ass. They might account from sars one. I just woke up one day,
Four hang on a minute. I'm working really hard, nine vastly underpaid, and I thought well. What am I gonna do about it. So I went to murder evening. Gotta map out drew a circle around where I was living at the time when I thought the first opportunity that comes with it, not circle I'll make myself apply for it, and it was first chief executive, drink as few commission and was very fortunate in getting it. What did the job involve? It was setting up this organization from scratch, so this was to review alleged miscarriages of justice after the debacle of the birmingham six, and so when I join there, we had a chairman and little else really, and you also arrived to a huge backlog of cases. What were some of the most memorable hand, ratty everyone blueprints knew of henrietta. That was a murder conviction that it is a family
appealing. Those are longstanding common view that hundreds he was innocent of the murder when he was hung for it. As it turned out, we did have irrefutable evidence that he had committed the crime in a. We were very surprised to find it as modern day techniques using dna. We did get an order from government to be able to assume the body. That was a first, but we did get to the root of it. Tat your next piece of music. What are we gonna hear or we're going to have? volcanic peace, the right of the valkyrie is this really has a great of residence. For me about appeared in my life, two thousand and seven when I was chief executive of normalization court, animal health can be dealt with is small outbreak of foot and mouth disease. I was the feel commander for the response to that that the deputy chief vat
time. Fred landing was hugely experienced, and sometimes when you're, in the heat of the moment, two bit of liberty, hopes and fred had this june on his phone. This is his ringtone maker and whenever I heard it, I knew that something was afoot, but he was on top of it.
It really is the perfect ringtone pot of agnes right of veto is performed by the vienna philimonovna conducted by secured shorty dame planet stacy. So by two thousand and seven you dealing with that much feared outbreak of foot and mouth, the two thousand and one I break in absolute need ever stating what was the day to day atmosphere like the organization has two jobs. It deals with emergencies. The day to day it's actually working hard to make sure that a good number of regulations all about the safety of the meat on your plate, really are adhered to by farming, say. That's were busy day
today, anyway, now a good number of them had. Actually, if you like that, got war stories about two thousand and one some of them had left home on a friday afternoon to check out a herd and come back eight months later. You know it's been a really trauma, experience, some of them may be about one in ten, actually had been broken by it. So there was definitely is a really strong legacy that, but these vets knew what they were doing. So when I got there, life did think to myself with the next big test will be the next big outbreak of an exotic disease. Fortunately, for me we had three. is before we then had. It was actually a bout of avian influenza to remember. We had about a dozen in my eye on yet, but we were ready. Tell me but more about two thousand and seven then because you're dealing with the situation on the ground. What was that like day today? So it's all run from london you'll? Therefore duration. We were incurred
I think, to try and get one day a week off, but not such enormous certificate tickets you how to live in the north, as I did at the time you might get ahead and get your washing done and come back again. You will meet seven in the morning noon and you seven at night stand up. Meetings were discussing what you ve done overnight. What you're about to do? The chief fact would be making key decisions and also facing the public and the media and politicians as well. I would usually be updating meetings at cobra, which I would attend with the chief aunt's and then private meetings with the prime minister has not spending fulton in these situations that you keep the faith of the prime minister that you are on top of this disease. nervous. You most, prime ministers, don't have a deep knowledge of one exotic disease or another, so there at a disadvantage, so part of it is simply explaining what you're doing and why and what is likely to perhaps happen. Did you have to ask what brand were day off so that you could get married? Yes, foot and mouth two thousand said,
came to varying convenient time for me and my lovely husband was left before the wedding organizing my flowers and agreeing that table seating arrangements. Let's have it, music. This is your sixth. I have chosen sounds piano concerto number, two in g minor, I went to see its reform live at the symphony in birmingham with my husband- and I was just so lifted and moved by its tremendously difficult peace to perform and to see the pride and relief and joy on the faces of the peerless. In the orchestra and conduct transit concluded our never forget it,
You do the second movement of sand, sons, no concerto number, two in G minor played by stephen half with the city of Birmingham symphony orchestra conducted by securing aroma, and that's for your second husband David's music, in paris to did he pay piano for you when you met, was it part of the willing prose o? Definitely and I fell for it lines in which peace when you over wrapped in blue, I think when I heard him play gush win. Who would not be moved by that? It was very difficult, not put it on my eight, but you didn't give me a ninth deemed Lana Stacy, you ve said that's been regulators.
Not always a recipe for popularity. No well in twenty Levin me became the chief executive of the exam regulator of Kuan yew, implemented the government's changes to the design of the gnp english exam in twenty twelve. Many students didn't achieved a great that they had expected and unified quelled received huge criticism. In fact, you are taken to court case. You eventually one. You said it was a very difficult time for you professionally. How did you get through? I think you're probably wasn't most difficult time of my career, because it was very plain that summing unfurrowed happened. Regulation had not been able to prevent, not on firm, is happening and that so sober reflection,
for me that you can't always make things right just to explain. In that case a new qualifications they ve been design some years before had been examined for the first time in two thousand and twelve, the national results looked healthy, but underneath that there were huge variations between schools now, my first thought is a regulate. Regulating was that these pesky exam board must have done something awry, but actually they had not. They had acted fairly and awarded fairly. We were therefore at a loss to know exactly why these variations. It occurred school by school, but we did set about finding out why we have to build new systems there to interrogate them We launch data sent school by school class, my class, and there we found that the situation was complex. There were a number of changes to the codification, which perhaps not every teach would fully understood, but it was also clear that a good number of teachers had been over enthusiastic
the way they had marked students coursework. So really it was a question of trying to explain that, but we were not successful in the sense that proceedings were issued again. to us, and then it was a question of making sure we were able to get opposition crossing those proceedings, is one of the downsides of a job like those the fact that the public only reedy hear about it when something's gone, wrong when somehow it failed. Well, if you call that a downside, yes, but the public have an expectation that thing shouldn't go that wrong. That often you know my job is to make sure the damned don't expect to have the public praising me. For that. I think a quote from me was that the most you can expect for charging respect. I was published off cool when I say that, yes, being a reg here too, it is quite a nuanced job. You need to have very good political antenne. I am you need,
a measured view of the evidence that you are collecting and it really requires a fair amount of hindsight, clear site and foresight and a bit of luck to get that right. Let's go to the music. seventh so I've chosen, I shot the sheriff by bob marley. I think it's a great song, I loved it. When I was at the quickest review. Commission where it was surprising me rare that someone actually a claim their innocence. When they apply to us, they might say that they had an unfair hearing, what I've been stitched up by the police, and it wasn't often that they started bus, They were innocent, interesting me that sometimes you'd get us situation with someone who say she when I didn't commit that particular cry because almost committing a much worse one at the time- and it is
pretty good and provide real. I should the sheriff by bob molly and the wayless dame gleneesh. They see unit working as a founder member of the centre for data ethics and innovation and you're looking into the digital space, which is apparently very difficult to regulate. What do you think of the biggest challenges facing us there,
was an enormous, exciting, roman. Actually so we ve got enormous large datasets now in the public and private domains, and also we ve got the exponential growth of artificial intelligence and the She for us as the countries to make sure that those things are used and developed for the public good terribly difficult to work out. How I might actually regulated but this organization created by government is trying to get a grip on that ending some very good work. Think as we spend more time online and in the digital world. Our expectations about public life being regulated are changing. I'm not sure The things that were doing is seeking public opinion. So do you know how your data is used? Do you care? I mean we can assume the people don't knowing that they do but it may not be quite like that in reality, I do think that we are very used to the convenience actually of how we use the internet particularly now
and some of the controls that might help to steal things in the right direction might make that experience, not yunus convenient for us and we may not be patient very sing airy remains to be seen. You received a dame heard for your services, education in twenty. Sixteen there's nothing like a dame Was it to be one? I was absolutely thrilled. I love being a dame. The dame would whisper said his dedication, but also in effect, to do some quite difficult jobs over quite period of time, and I thought that was great wreck acts were doing difficult jobs it onto away. In the public eye. We still got one modiste go so let's enjoy that. No, this is from Mozart, corrosive anti, just a beautiful piece. Music singing. This is where Men are going off to war and its a bit of a lament, but actually in typical opera style, they're, not really going to so there's a sort of tongue in cheek. spectators well, but it is tremendously moving
policies who are they see, elemental from Mozart's, cosy, found too? some by when a fleming and Sophie VON oughta and mikhail petty, see with the chamber orchestra of europe, conducted by sir George, show He saw deemed Lana stacy's time for the next challenge: isolation on your desk island. What's the first thing that you'll do when you get on going to take a good look around and say well, I can plant in my garden so you're a king gardiner. I have come to go running late in life. But, yes, I really do enjoy it. Well, I'm gonna give you two books to take few, the bible and the complete works of shakespeare. You can also have one of your choice. What would you like, I'm going to take the oxford book of english This is going to fit the criteria than but I'd like to have a selection of seeds. I will be voting. He's right, one for whatever mood I mean, and what about the luxury item? I heard that you feel I've been rather too lenient in adhering to the rules on this when I am regulate
bad behaviour and go on doing it when I hope this is going to fit the criteria than but I'd like to have a selection of seeds, I will be very keen to create some sort of garden to nurture things along. I hoped you let me have. The certainty were isolated and, finally, you are forced to save just one of the eight tracks that you share with us today, which would it be salisbury hill because its uplifting and it's about a life changing event, and I think this is going to be alive Genji, given from being on this island, say I'll. Take that one thing Glenn stacy! Thank you very much. sharing your desert island discs with us. Thank you for the chance I wish them every success in cultivating horizon garden. At least you'll have plenty of some, perhaps a bit rainwater too. As a keen garden,
I'm sure she'd be interested to know of the many horticulture list and green thing. Experts have been cast away before her. The desert island discs back cataloguing, pleads monti, don christopher lloyd and sue banks, and twenty fifteen kirsty young interviewed the garden designer done pearson. Tell me, then, about the very first little bits of garden, but ever worked on. I had at all collection while I was or unable at one troll it's a time to let the little dolls that it knows that the crazy gave the criteria and the constant small and ice to make troll gardens, which were basically three bricks with a slight and then reform the top and after wives, pumping about five. I realise that she, these the gods, were much more interesting than shoals were because things upon the top a growing and I was inclined to be lucky to have
come into my garden whenever you want the door was open and she had this amazing golden shoes. A naturalist said this, then you say round about five that would abandon them at sixty. You have one nineteen sixty four, and it seems to me that your parents, your father, was a finite lit. he said come into my garden whenever you want the door was open and she had this amazing garden. She was a naturalist said this. Then you say round about five that would have been in the sixties. You have one nineteen sixty four, and it seems me that your parents, your father, was a finite lecturer and also a painter himself and your mother had a background in textiles and design. Was your house inside. Was it full of your dad's paintings in your your mom's work? house of matrix, really mama's, was making something and that had a studio in the garden when she threw out and retreat into the smelter oil paints and snorlax lovely things that you remember from being a kid and he would spend time with us in there if we want to
but we can run around in the garden, and so this guy was in Hampshire was it was it? Was it a big garden? Was at a fancy, got me there's? No, it was pursued fairly modest, besides garden, in a collection of houses and woodland and where she moved from the house along the line to this extraordinary garden in ninety and when MR event, she had assumed strokes, my mom managed to get a sin to help create a house up at the house was the most extraordinary place with guns ross it up from the floor and by keeping a vine as a continent in discussing board inside the house and the old lady who lived there planted the gun by peacefully, we discovered, as we start, a clearing, the garden,
The house was the most extraordinary place with curtains rotted up from the floor and my key be a vine as a continent in discussing board inside the house and the old lady who lived there planted the convoy peacefully. We discovered, as we start, a clearing the garden. So for me it was a complete paradise because, which, with clear enough fell, the laurel law or push through some bamboo find winter sweet growing, brambles beyond it. We had this one for magical thing, underneath fully undergrowth dan peace in, and you can find that programme at over two thousand move on BBC sands. Next time casting away the actor Wendell pay, as you may know, better, as bunk morland from the wire he's a real music lover, so join us too,
his doesn't anticipatory system hi, I'm. I was too sick and I want to tell you about the way I see it: a brand new podcast from BBC radio, three it a thirty part series in which we throwing open the collection of moma. The museum of modern art in new york to some of the sharpest creative minds of our time will be speaking to comedian, Steve martin writer rocks and gay musician, Steve rice and many many more I'll, be or guide throughout the siri. So join me as I explore one of the greatest collections of modern, not in the world, if you'd like to him or just search for the way I see it on BBC sounds.
Transcript generated on 2022-06-08.