Hello, I'm Kirsty Young and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. Reasons we've had to shorten the music. The program was originally broadcast in 1987 and the presenter was Michael Michael Parkinson. And she wrote her first novel, The Country Girls, in 1960. It immediately gains her widespread acclaim, and her reputation has grown with each new book. On television and radio she projects an intriguing personality. I've always thought of her as a beguiling witch. She is Edna O'Brien. You smile at the description, but that's really... That's what I do feel about you. Ah, well I'm very pleased, particularly...

Many people would be afraid of the word witch. I am not at all. One of my great friends and somebody whom I admired very much as a poet was Robert Graves. Quite obsessed with goddesses which is anything I supposed to do with psychic quality or something that's beyond the norm and the rational. Even saying that many people will say, Oh, how silly, you know, let's deal with the rational. I always think let's have a little access to magic and to the unknown because life is primarily quite boring. True did the graves call you a witch as well then he did he did yes he I'm in good company you're in good He didn't however put the beguiling before it. What about, let's talk about music that you're going to take to this desert island of yours. Now has music been an important part of your life? with.

It has become more important as time goes on. I mean, I constantly listen to what I call the third... Program but I understand is Radio 3. But my tastes in music have changed. Was young in Ireland. There was really... Musical music I never heard at opera, but they were two kinds. Two contrasting kinds of music, which I still love, of course, because we never escape our beginnings, nor should we, I think. The first kind was the singing of the mass. At Easter particularly, you know, during Lent and Easter Saturday. Still hear it and be uplifted by it. The kyria, the sanctus.

And that so that was choir music and then on maybe Easter Sunday night through the open windows of the dance hall to which one was not allowed to go on the grounds of being too young, one would hear some crooner or other who one could imagine as being the most handsome man in the world singing quite soppy songs like Jealousy. That was a great one. It's all over mine, jealousy. So those were my first two contacts. Introduction if you like to music and then there was the other thing which is the the Irish pipes, the Ilyn pipes, which have these beautiful... Beautiful music and I love heirs. I don't mean heirs and graces but heirs in the head.

You know, something that you hear a tune and it does without doubt summon up a whole flotilla of emotions. More than prose or paintings. What about the first choice then, of record? Well this is one of my... One of my truly favourite Irish songs, as is the voice of the girl who sings it from the Johnsons, It's called in this version, The Lambs on the Green Hills.

The Lamb is on the Green Hills performed by the Johnstons. Let's go back to your childhood now. What kind of a... an upbringing was it? I mean, was it a happy childhood? No, no, I don't think so. I have talked about it before and really I'm always in dread of ever repeating myself. I'll try and think of some particular aspects of it that maybe one hasn't said before. It was certainly a I had a childhood in which I fastened onto both fantasy and fantasy. And things of the imagination. And I think we always do that. Do that when there is darkness or gloom.

On happiness. To throw stones or blame anyone, insofar as I think we expect... Of our parents to be very happy, wholesome, protective people. And sometimes they're not able to be because they themselves are living out unfinished business of childhood. So the... There wasn't much laughter or there wasn't a great deal of laughter. Great harmony. What there was, though, was... I can now see the material and the whetstone to become a writer.

I wrote a little novel when I was probably nine or ten and I had it in little notebooks. The things in this world that you lose. It happens in adult life too. I don't know what happened to it. I certainly wrote it and it was... Was quite absurd and gushing, but one of my favourite books of that kind of genre is The Young Visitors, you know, it's a lovely little book. It wasn't as funny as the young visitors, but it had that same spryness. Another choice of record, please. Nabucco. It's the chorus of the slaves and this particular one is... Doctor Byclaudio Abbado.

There was a chorus of the Hebrew slaves from Verdi's Nabucco, the Ambrosian Singers and the London Symphony Orchestra conducted by Claudio Abbado. Ed and Brian, what about religion? I mean, what part of that play in the creative impulse? Very strong part, actually, more and more. Religion, particularly the Catholic religion, which is the only one I have living experience of, suffuses you. And drenches you in all its imagery and in its story. I mean, I took religion to be as... Part of everyday life as part of eternal life, so that it had a very profound effect on us. Me and still has, but in a slightly altered way. As a young girl, I was extremely devout and was forever bobbing into the chapel and Jennifer

And saying the Stations of the Cross and praying. I was going even at the times, you know, when nobody else went because I had... I had these saintly aspirations. Did you? Sounds a bit conceited, but I promise you it wasn't conceited. It was silly, I suppose. I also have to say that great and indeed on all... Trouble fears were deadened into me by the Catholic. Church, by the sermons, by the nuns. I was educated by nuns when I went away to a boarding school.

It was in the 1940s and it's almost unbelievable to look back on it now. This absolute fear that everything one might do was a sin or was an occasion of sin. So that dreaded shackle, which we all try to stave off but can't. Shackle of guilt is as I think inherent in me as my bloodstream. It's still with you now. Oh, yes I don't think I don't think we change in this too much. The only change that comes about is a recognition of what it is. That's going on. I would not, I hope, ever be frightened again by priest-nuns. Bishop or Monsignor, because very often their reason for...

Or correcting or abjuring one was not to do with faith or religion at all, but to do with their own little piece of power. When you are young, and even when you are not so young, you sometimes omit to recognise how many people want power. Domestic power in the home or power in the office or power in the pulpit. Well, I don't I don't want that manipulation ever again. But I do yearn for a spiritual peace and a spiritual entity. Another choice of record, please. My third choice is Olatunji and it's African drums and it's called the drums of passion.

The Tangier African drums of passion. Edward Bryan, you once said... Describing this life you've been talking about. You said that life was catastrophic. What do you mean? Must have meant it if I used the word. I also, I don't know when I said it, but I won't deny it. I think, uh, What I mean is that I have in me a rather continuous sort of fear of catastrophe. I'm a very anxious person. Mind you, I don't know a writer who isn't, but that's neither here nor there. And catastrophe is a very strong word, I know, but it's... Always being on the alert for some outburst.

Or some danger which makes me physically a rather frightened person and it's a contradiction but morally I don't feel afraid of people but physically I do And that's why certain things, I mean people say to me for instance, are you afraid of flying? I say don't be ridiculous, I'm afraid of crossing the road. Or being in a motorcar, because flying is rather light because you're up in the air. But it's something, I think, that... Was instilled in me both by my own disposition and by my own upbringing where there was, you know, they used to talk about Ghosts and people putting curses on people and animals. Was getting foot and mouth disease that was really sent by God. There was a lot of primitive qualities. In my growing up, which seemed maybe laughable, speaking in 1987 now here in London, but...

They're all there inside one, the little Bray in that little magic computer. Has stored everything and we don't know why it is. It is, for instance, you might go to an exhibition and love Picasso, let's say, his Blue Period. And your wife or someone might like Guernica which is a... all the things that we think we're being logical when we judge them or when we react to them are with so many components that we don't know about. Let's have another choice of record. It's from Mozart's Requiem. I love everything of Mozart, so I put tossed coins in the air and came with the Requiem, and it's the Sanctus.

♪ Some rules ♪ ♪ Some rules ♪ ♪ Some rules ♪ ♪ Hope in the table ♪ ♪ Some rules ♪ ♪ There is no change ♪ ♪ There's no change in the table ♪ ♪ Gloria, Gloria, Gloria ♪ ♪ Gloria, Gloria, Gloria ♪ - That was the Sanctus from Mozart's Requiem, the chorus and orchestra of Paris conducted by Daniel Barenboim. - Edward Bryan, let's...

Continue with your career now. I mean when you left home you went to work in a drug store. Yes, or a pharmacy as we call it. Oh yes, I always say that it was there I learned how to cook. For a very simple reason that the medicines, a lot of the medicines, there But a lot of the medicines were still made up by by hand so I learned how to make emulsions and I learned how to make and I learned all those things which teaches one how to make a good sauce and so on and Suppository sauce, a suppository sauce, yes, or a gentian violet sauce And, I mean, what was your ambition then at this point? Oh, it was always to be a writer, but my family... Quite understandably thought that was both

Profane and unwise occupation. My mother in particular, it's very strange, she had a dread of writing and of literature. I mean a dread of it. She had this notion, not from having read any books because she didn't read any, but she had this notion that it was the ticket to sin. And I went home on holiday once with a suitcase that didn't close properly and so on, and I had a part of Sean O'Casey's autobiography. And I'll never forget my... Bringing it down to me in her hand and saying, What is this? That like the like the Russian censors the Irish censors know that writing and literature is dynamite.

But to me in the face of all this, but in fact you were in more trouble with your parents weren't you then than just wanting to be a writer because you eloped didn't you? That's true. I was always true to these songs like the lambs and the green hills and so on. Yes, I did elope. I never A proper wedding and I don't know that I probably ever will but Yes, I eloped and that caused a huge rift in the family one imagine. Yes, it caused it Understandably a great rift. I mean years after when I heard the Beatles singing She's Leaving Home I thought why couldn't they have taken it like that? They did cause a great rift. It also caused me myself a quite untoward amount of unhappiness and angst because I I was obviously very divided about doing this and very guilty.

And then I sort of hid for a long time so that it wasn't the best way to start on so-called Bliss let's have another record ah my My favourite, favourite voice in the world is that of Maria Callas and it's from Bellini's La Sanambula

This is La sannambula An oncreder mirati sung by Maria Callas. And Brian, so we're at the end of the show. Situation now where you've eloped and the family are not speaking to you. And it was in fact at this time that you wrote your first novel, wasn't it? Yes. The Country Girls? Yes. Was I had actually had my little sons and I was given By an English and American publisher. It was Ian Hamilton of Hutchinsons and Blanche Knopf, God rest her, off-cut. Off. Between them they gave me 50 pounds to write a novel. And I was so exalted by this huge sum of money that I immediately spent it. My children and I bought a sewing machine because I thought my husband would think that was a sensible thing. Anyhow, I blew this money.

Had to write the novel, but the novel, it was the easiest novel I ever wrote, The Country Girls. I often say, and it's true, that it wrote itself. It came to London and it was my first time that I'd ever been away from Ireland or away Anywhere and I had this and I often think it still applies to people who come from other countries this indescribable lonely... That's both an internal loneliness of emotion but also a quite physical... The other landscape, you can't adjust to it. Waterloo Station seemed to me, oh, such a, you know, gloom. So I wrote it in a sense about my country and about my childhood. And my family, it was a farewell to many things. But I tried or hoped through the character of Baba to inject a bit of...

Life and buoyancy into it because I think it was Brendan Behan who once said, he said, If ever you're going to get tragedy, get it in the back door. And I loved writing it but I used to write it in my son's bedroom and they used to knock on the door, put little The door and say, Are you ready? Are you ready? because they wanted me to be, you And my younger son, Sasha, had a lisp at the time, and he used to say, 'Have you finished Because they thought it was, you know, if I got another £50 that some more presents would be coming up. It's more than a success of course, it's got stamina too because it's lusted and you just brought the trilogy out of the, called The Company. To go through the epilogue. So I mean it's stood the test of time. Because we're talking back now in the 60s. >> Yes, 25, 27 years in fact. >> So it's had that wonderful stamina.

Did the three books have to... Well, I suppose I've been lucky in that. I also... I don't have to defend myself. To you because you're very nice to me, but I suppose I can also say that any book is like a person. The real test is the rereading and it's the test of time. Thing when it comes out is a kind of novelty and indeed the word novel is no accident. The real litmus test is the test of truth. And people might say, Well, what do you mean by truth? I think I know I can pick up any book or poem or play and know whether it has that inner hum of life or whether it's just a flash in the pan. Another choice of record, please.

Ah, the great, great Elvis Presley. I know you're dismayed, are you, but I loved-- I've always never known an Elvis Presley fan that day. Well, it's this song in particular, which I love because it well it says a lot And it is Are You Lonesome Tonight? Are you lonesome tonight? Are you lonesome tonight? *music* ♪ Lifted apart ♪ Does your memory stray to a brighter summer day? When I kiss you... Elvis Presley, are you alone? Tonight. Edna Bryan, I was about to ask you, have you ever considered writing your autobiography and then I thought well no I mean you've already done it in all your novels haven't you? That's not

true Michael that's not true you try writing fiction and your autobiography and you'll see there is a great difference because what fiction is Is fantasized and imaginatized autobiography, but it ain't the same thing. If I wrote my autobiography it would be quite different and the style would be different. So what Higgins what's it says just you wait Henry Higgins I don't know Or maybe. Not yet, not yet. Have you ever thought of it? Have you thought of a title? Are you lonesome tonight, perhaps? Let's have another choice of record. It's Carmina Burana by Karl Orff. ♪ Big ups, big ups ♪

That was part of... Amina Burana by Karl Orff, a performance conducted by Riccardo Muti. One thing that intrigues me about you is that you're not just a novelist, I mean you're a star actually. I mean you're a star. I mean you're a star novelist. I mean you're the kind of person you see on chat shows and you're interviewed all the time. And I mean people ring you up for quotes about what you think you're doing. About the Queen's Corgis and all that sort of thing. But if they do, they get a negative answer. Right, but what I'm getting at is, I mean, does that change the perspective of the novelist, to get the kind of fame and the accolade that you've had from your profession? Well, I'm being genuine when I say this to you. I feel very hard worked and sometimes over-over-over.

Oppressed with cares and calls and I hate the telephone, but I don't feel a star. I feel, thank God, that I've managed to continue the talent that was given me and to be very And obsessive about it. But for the most part I lead a fairly hidden and secluded Obviously I have been and you have interviewed me and Russell Harty and people in the past. That's like once a year or something. The bulk of my life is lived alone. Trying to write or writing, I see a lot of my sons whom I dote on, and I see a few people, The notion of fame, you see, doesn't happen unless you make a lot of money, and that I never have done. My books sell quite well, but I've never made...

Large sums of money or have staff or anything like that so that I'm still... Know, carrying home my own shopping and cooking the dinner and perhaps... Perhaps, I would like to make a bit more sure, who wouldn't? But perhaps that having to lead ordinary, if you like, a housewife-ly life has... Kept me, my feet are on the ground, perhaps my head is not as focused as it should be, but I don't feel any different when I publish my first book. I'm still as apprehensive and still I rewrite and rewrite maybe ten, twenty times, still wanting to get it perfect, and that has nothing to do with fame or anything, that's an inner need like prayer, really. And has it been then, and it must have been from what you've told me,

I mean, the life of a writer, have you found that totally satisfying? No, no I haven't. I often wish that I had a job that brought me into contact with people. I mean, one of my great heroes is Chekhov, and Chekhov was, as you know, a doctor, and Retire into the country to his house to try and write and when he'd open the door in the morning there were 30 or 40 Russian peasants. All of whom needed medical attention. And he railed against it, but it was the sap for so many. Of his great stories and plays. So I am glad that I am a writer and wouldn't in any other incarnation want it altered. But to counteract it, I would love a much more physical life and comfortable life.

I'd actually love to have been a dancer. And I said this once to my great friend Jerome Robbins. He said, You wouldn't like to be a dancer. You wouldn't like to be practising eight hours of dancing. A day at the bar and I said well I do that anyhow with writing he said exactly you can't have everything so I like Let's say 60% of it keeps me happy is a big word but glad that I am it. Final choice of record please, Emma. is

Packer Bell's Canon in D.

That was a canon indeed by Packerbell, played by the Pyar Chamber Orchestra. - Edna and Brian, you're now on your desert island. Imagine a wave comes along, seven of your... A cause of a wash the way you're left with the one which would be it would be that one would it pack a bell because I think is the most beautiful and Harmonizing it just makes me feel so calm and what is the book that you Assume you've got the Bible and you've got the works of Shakespeare. Which we're glad of, aren't we? Very glad. I would bring... I was once given by Senator Benton a present of all the volumes of the Encyclopedia Britannica. Them and improve my knowledge which needs improving. And what about the luxury object inanimate? Well, it isn't a luxury object.

I think it's a necessity. It would be champagne and I have to... I'd say I like all champagne, but I'd like crystal there. A limitless supply. Just enough per day, you know, just in the evening at sundown. Eleanor Brown, thank you very much indeed. Thank you very much. Thank you, Michael. You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk.

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