Hello, I'm Kirsty Young and this is a download from the Desert Island Discs archive. This edition may be slightly different from what was actually broadcast, but it is the only version we have. From the British Library's radio collection. The recording didn't contain the guests' eight music choices, so we rebuilt the original show by using discs from the BBC. Gramophone library. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music. Can be found on the Castaways page on the Desert Island Discs website. The program was originally broadcast in 1981 and the presenter was Roy Plumley. On our desert island this week is the man who is the...

Voice of Miss Piggy and some other Muppet mates, it's Frank Oz. Is music a major interest of yours? Not a major one, no. I'm not one who comes home and sits down and listens to music. I tend to listen to music a great deal in the car driving to and from work. Have you any skill at music? Do you play an instrument? I've been a cello for about a year when I was in my teens and I've taken about a year and a half of piano and music theory. Have you ever played in public anyway? No. No, there's no real reason for me to play in public anywhere. Have just this miserable allowance of eight disks. What's the first one you've chosen? Is called Young Man Moes and it's the title of the album. That's by--

I think was my brothers in the beginning. But I chose it because the jacket cover has... Sitting there. It's a white cover. He's sitting on a chair. And I remember it placed in the record rack in our home. And our home has a nice redwood floor. And I can see this when Think of young man moles. Redwood floor with a big picture window and the trees outside in our stereo so it's a great sense of... Of home and feeling of home when I sense Moses Allison and the cut that I like very much. Young Man Moles is... which one did I pick? Don't Get Around Much Anymore. Don't Get Around Much Anymore, yes. And that's the Duke Ellington number, isn't it? Yes it is, yeah. Love the lyrics.

Thought I'd visit the club, I got as far as a door They'd have asked me about you, I don't get around much anymore Well, darlin', I guess my mind's more at ease But nevertheless, a wise stir of memory I've been invited on dates I could have gone, but what for? Awfully different without you, I don't get around much anymore Young Mo's Allison, Doreen's House Get around much anymore. Now Oz, to say the least, is an unusual name.

It's not my real name. My legal name is Osnowitz, which it still is. And I just use Oz because some time ago... 17 years ago when I was in New York and I was performing on a show, the fellow who's show it was couldn't pronounce my name and I just felt well why not use Oz and keep Oz in the wits which I'd never change. Where were you born? I was born here in Hereford, England. Where do your parents come from? My mother is Flemish. She was... Born in Bruges, my father is Dutch, he was born in Amsterdam, and they really lived in Antwerp, Belgium before moving to the United States. How long did you live in Hereford? I didn't live in Hereford for very long. Came here during the war and I was a war baby and after the war I was born in 44 my parents and I and my brother moved back to Antwerp. Can you still speak Flemish?

You still speak English. No, I can't. I can understand Fungus a bit. But no, I used to speak French and Dutch and Flemish and it's all gone now. What did your father do? He still is. He's a window trimmer in the United States, in California. He decorates windows. Apparel windows. He also was a puppeteer. Yes, yes. In Belgium he was a puppeteer and when he met my mother he asked her to make some costumes. And they worked together and then they fell in love. Did he have a portable theatre or did they play in Vaudeville? No, no, it was something he was doing as a hobby. He had his profession and... It was just something he enjoyed doing and he would carve the heads. In a small room that he had in Antwerp and he just do it for friends.

With that in California in addition to his work? - Yes, but much more in a social sense. He had to raise a family and he really didn't do shows as such. Minimum of shows but was involved in the organization the Puppeteers of America there. Did you work with him as a child? The only time I did work with him was I did a show in a children's park when I was about 14. And it was a show that he and my mother and I worked on. Significant in that we had screaming fights. Well, of course, this is the artistic temperaments. No, because I was a young kid trying to get away from my parents and at the same time working with my parents. As any rebellious young kid knows, it's time to get away from home and I chose that time to work with him. But it was fine, you know, it worked out fine. Second record, again, it's a strong association.

Bing Crosby's Christmas Carols, actually it's an old record. The cut on it is God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen and I picked that because... Whenever we had Christmas, my parents, we have a very family-minded family, we're very close, my parents said, Well, let's not open the presents yet. Let's sing. Some Christmas carols. And they put on Bing Crosby, Rod Restre, Mary Gentlemen. And I Because I wanted to get at those presents and I would sit and listen to God rest ye merry gentlemen over and over and I just wanted those gifts. So that's why Joseph had a strong family association again. Gentlemen, let nothing you dismay

Remember Christ our Savior, was born on Christmas Day, to save us all from Satan's power when we were gone astray. Bing Crosby. Obviously you were educated in California. Where were you at high school? Uh, high school called Oakland Technical High School. Technical has nothing... To do with what the school is about. It's just a name. Had your ambitions at that time to be a professional puppeteer? No, as a matter of fact, I did my first... Show when I was about 11 years old. I did a show in front of a supermarket for $35 and I did show...

I was 18 years old for some extra money where I could buy things. And I was-- known very locally around the San Francisco Bay Area and did birthday parties and fairs. Bazaars and churches and parking lots and everything, which was a very good experience, excellent experience for a performer. But in truth, I stopped. I was 18 thinking, This is silly. I'll never make money at this. What were you good at, at high school? English. English, I enjoyed supporting. I enjoyed. I wanted to be a journalist. You were a good basketball player. You're a tall lad. I don't know if I was good or not. I certainly enjoyed it and do. When you When you left high school you came to London for a while. Yes, yes. I took two months.

To go around Europe visiting youth hostels and going to London. I was here for about 10 days. Did you visit any puppeteers? No, I don't think I did. I think at that time I was just a kid who was trying to experience as much as I could. And it-- didn't really involve puppets. Was it before you came here or when you returned to California that you met a man named Jim Hansen? In California, I was 17, this is prior to finishing high school. I met Jim at a conference. The Puppeteers of America are having a group in the United States that meets once a year. He asked me to, well he didn't ask me at that time to come work with him because I hadn't finished high school. But after I returned from my... European John, and after a month of college, then he asked me to come out and I...

Well, what was he doing? He was just moving to New York from Washington DC. He was... Doing commercials and guest appearances on various variety shows. On television? Yes, on television. He'd had a television show in... He was in Washington, D.C. for eight years and he decided to move to New York and he needed a performer. Asked me. And it was he, myself, Don Saline, and Jerry Jewell, the four of us who really Things in New York. But on that first time of asking you said no. Well I was 17. I had not finished high school and the fellow I work with, Jerry Jewell, decided he would go but But you were buzzing with the idea, or did you still want to go into journalism? Oh, I wanted to go into journalism. I had never had any idea that I'd go into puppetry, I mean, and performing. I was much more interested in writing and journalism. Right, well that... Of divided interest, let's break your third record. What's that to be?

With the Strong Association, it's a wonderful town. It's Leonard Bernstein, Betty Combs, and Adolph Green. And there's a cut in it called What A Waste. And I know this album. For some reason, when I was a child, I played-- this album over and over again, again in my home. And I can sing it. And if I was in that desert island, I think I could just sing to my heart's content. And this particular For some reason, I would play over and over again. There's no explanation why. It's one of those obsessive qualities that children sometimes have.

What a waste from wonderful town sung by George George Gaines, Warren Galjour and Albert Linville. And, well, it was rather... Like you you went off to New York didn't you you never did become a journalist mm-hmm went to join Jim Henson. - Yeah, he asked me for six months just to give it a try and I've been with him ever since. And he was working, he was breaking into New York as a puppeteer. He already had a frog puppet called Kermit, I believe, at that time. Tell me about the shows you did together.

We did a lot of variety shows, all the variety shows on television, the Perry Como, the Jack As they, oh gosh, we did them then, and we did many, many commercials. I believe that's a word that Jim Henson devised. Yes, yes. What does it mean? I have no idea. There are stories that it means half puppet and half Mary and Antman. I really don't know. It's a very dull answer, but I don't know. Right. How big an organization did he have? Just the three of you? It was just the four of us. His wife Jane performed in the beginning, but she was raising a family, and it really was Jim, myself, and the other three. As a performer, Jerry Jewell, the writer and Don Celine, who passed away, he's the one who built the puppets. And then we added on from then. Time in the late 60s when you were approached about a series called Sesame Street? Who was setting that up?

It was John Stone, the Children's Television Workshop people. I wasn't at the early meetings, Jim was, and they included Jim in some of those meetings, and it turned out that they'd liked something like the Muppets. Part of Sesame Street, so we were hired really as that portion of it. This was really a teaching show for preschoolers, teaching young children to read and write. It was originally attended as an experimental show. And what has happened is it became so successful and is so successful that-- People see it more as something that is meant for teaching to read and write. Thirteen years ago, in actual fact, the... The experiment was, can we teach children to count 1 to 10, do the alphabet? That's all the show was intended for. And ever since then it's grown. Incorporated some of the old characters that were in your repertoire and of course invented new ones. Processed me... The new ones are invented, really. Kermit was the original Muppet, I guess. And he was on Sesame Street.

He has been on the Muppet Show. Kermit's been everywhere. Yes, yes, and that's Jim, but we really created new puppets for Sesame Street. You're still doing Sesame Street after, what you said, 13 years. Yes, I'm doing it every year, about two or three weeks a year. Where is it made? In New York City. Let's have your fourth... Record. Watch what we have now. Okay, we'll have the five pennies. Danny K. Louis Armstrong. It's a movie I saw when I was, again, a youngster with my parents. I was in the back seat watching at a drive-in. And I bought... This for my father when we bought our Columbia record player at that time. This is 25 years ago. And since we're... My mother bought the stereo for my father. I bought this record and I brought the stereo down to my room and I heard Louis Armstrong Strong on the left and praise the Lord Danny Kay on the right. And I couldn't believe it. And I was.

Kid and I was in the room and all of a sudden there's Louis Armstrong and on the right Danny Kaye kicks in I heard that again I was a very strange Obsessive compulsive child because I heard that record over and over it was the first time in her stereo. Danny Kaye and Louis Armstrong and I hope you... Listening on stereo. So Sesame Street, a great success. Things were going very well. Then there was a proposition from Britain.

Yes, we were doing a show called Saturday Night Live, which was a very successful show state television show, weekly show. And after about a year or so of that, Lord Grade asked us to do 24 half. Fire shows in Britain which after all this time we know is the Muppet Show. Was this to be... No, no, we tried for quite a while to sell a family adult show in the United States, but no success. The three networks thought publics were just as good. For children. And Lord Grade asked us to come over and we had the opportunity to do what we wanted, which was a family... Built show that we knew was not just for children. Did you make a pilot? We made two pilots, but we were sure that we'd do the rest also. Who came over. How many of you were to be involved? In the beginning I think it was just less than a dozen, because...

People that came over were really the writers and the performers and Dave Lazer, our executive producer. Were there any particular difficulties about In Britain, you were coming right away from base. Only I think that it was difficult for us after a while. In the beginning it was very exciting coming to London. It was wonderful. We love London. But then after a while, your family's back home. And I mean after a while, after a year or so. A year and a half or two years you start missing your family and you're committed to do your job in London and you miss Simple pleasures that you know which you can't get in London. I'm sure vice versa is true for people who are British as you are in the United States. Firm ideas immediately as to who the principal characters were to be. I mean, Kermit had to agree again because he appeared in everything. Kermit, yes. We had a bear called Fozzie Bear who was created for the show and he was to be second banana for Kermit.

We had some other characters that we had already created for the series which we tried to sell. Piggy was a character that was not creator. It just came up during the rehearsals. She just appeared as she just appeared Lord knows how, but she just appeared. Where are your puppets made? Well, we have the best... There's people in the world making our puppets in New York and London. We have our own stand. In New York really. Did you try to make the show British in any particular way for grade or did we... No, we made a point of not making it British. We didn't want to be Americans coming in and trying to be British. That's pretty silly. We just... Think about nationality we just wanted to do a show that we thought was funny. You made 24 half-hour editions straight off.

Was viewers a reaction immediate or did it need a fairly long build-up? Well, in London it was fabulous. The first year was just astounding. It got to be a great success. In the United States, the first year wasn't as successful, but the United States has built up, and from year two, it-- It grew and grew and grew and was a great success in all the world. We've been very fortunate. Is it accepted in the United States as not a children's show? Yes, that's the best thing of all, that it's not a children's show. That it's a family show. Adult show. And it's given the right screening time? Yes, it's given usually around 7.30 at night or 6.30 or 7.30 depending what part of the country. We go to record number five. - Okay, record number five is Moles, Allison Sings. And I could--

I was in a desert island, I could sing all these songs. That is called Lost Mind. I just love the lyrics. And again, I know all these songs on this album, so if I was in a desert island, I could sing all these songs. And I'd be very happy and for those listeners who don't know mo's Ellison. He plays the piano

as well as singing. Yes. You would be so kind to help me find my mind. I want to thank you in advance. Know this before you start. My soul's been torn apart. I lost my mind in a while, oh man. My future is my past. This memory will last. I'll live to love the days gone by. Each day that come and go is like the one before. My mind's lost till the day I die. Mose Allison, Lost Mind. How many of my...

What kind of muppets programs have you made now? We've made 120 shows in 4 and a half, 5 years. So muppets are made in Britain and sesame sprouts are made in the UK. In the state. Yes, and Sesame Street is just two weeks of work or three weeks of... We have other performers working on Sesame Street, but now we're involved in some movie making, The Great Muppet Caper, which has been out here. And we did Muppet Movie before that. So you're not making the half-hour Muppet programs anymore? No, we stopped that last August because we... We just felt that five years was a very good amount to have, and we wanted to see how it up when we were on top. And the Muppet television shows are syndicated in various countries. Have you any idea how many? Yes. I saw the list once, as a matter of fact. It truly is around 100 countries. Any idea how many viewers that adds up to?

More than a couple of hundred, I'm sure. I don't know. I don't know. Our publicity releases say over 200-- million, but I'm sure it's only about 239 million. Or perhaps under half. I don't know. And spinoffs of course galore. There are dolls and things out, yes, that are sold around the world. How many voices do you do? I know you do Miss Piggy. I do Piggy, I do Animal, I do Sam the Eagle, I do Fozzie Bear, and that's just on the Muppet Show. I do other voices also. I don't want to know any detail because it would spoil it, but you'll use all sorts of animation methods. Showing them up in movies, yes. Basically, they're characters like Animal or Floyd. They're all hand puppets with arm wires. Those particular characters, or the rats we do, or the chickens, they're all basically hand puppets. And rods and... Some rods, yeah. It depends on each puppet.

And electronics? Not really. And some of the more sophisticated things we're doing now, we're doing a movie right now called Dark Crystal, which will be out in a year's time or less. There's a lot of sophisticated work. There but not on the Mapuchó really. And you have the fun of incorporating live stars. That's the best part you see. If you do a weekly show, maybe as you know Just did a show on and on and on, you get very bored. But every week you have a new guest star which you can shape the show around and it's very exciting because you're looking forward to meeting an Elton John, you're looking forward to meeting a Nureyev or someone. It's very exciting every week. Too because it's also a wonderful showcase. I mean there are no humans on that show except the star. Showcase for them and they enjoy it very much. And you have the challenge of, for example, having a live star dance with a puppet. Well, we have also some large 7-foot, 10-foot creatures, even 15-foot creatures.

Which are essentially puppets. So when we have a dancer on the program or anybody who wants to dance... We use those creatures very effectively. You can get inside a Miss Piggy skin if you want to. No, not Miss Piggy. That's a different situation. She's a character who's not a costume. Was the whole thing carefully scripted? or was there a certain amount of ad-libbing on the floor? It was carefully scripted. We had excellent writers, about three of them usually. Jerry Jewell, the head writer, and we would take the scripts and we'd work on them for weeks. Edit them down until the very last moment we'd be editing. And then we'd ad-lib maybe 5-10% at the very most. They were tightly scripted. Was it direct sound or did you dub afterwards? For musical numbers we would sing the numbers beforehand and then we would play it down to the studio floor. But all the dialogue was live at the time when Jim is working Kermit or I'm working

Piggy or whoever else is working puppets we're actually talking at the same time record number six record number six It is Bruce Springsteen, Darkness on the Edge of Town, when I was in Los Angeles. This is where I met my wife doing the Muppet movie. I drove around in my car and this is one of the songs I listened to. And it reminds me of... Of just the sunshine and the open feeling driving around Los Angeles. And it's also a beautiful sauce, a beautiful lament.

That's called Racing in the Street. Will Springsteen Racing in the Street. Going back to your childhood prank, not all-- That's long ago. Were you an outdoor boy? Were you a Boy Scout or anything of that sort? I was a Boy Scout. You were splendid. Yes, I was a splendid Boy Scout and I quit Boy Scouts very early. Yes, I did some camping out. Nuts and lighting a fire with one match or... Yes, yes. Yes, well actually I was a boy scout and I got all my badges. Did you? Yes, about three badges.

There are more than that, for heaven's sake. Yes, well those are the sissy badges. Those are the badges you do in the safety of your own home. When you go out camping, it's a different story. I went out camping and it was very cold in my sleeping bag. And my father was along, so I stopped in the station wagon instead. What was your father doing in the Boy Scout? He was one of the leaders that came along on the camping trip. And I like camping. I like camping now. I think I would know I would not to lie. I had a terrible time campaign I may like it I may like it now, but I haven't tried it for 30 years and since I got cold in that sleeping bag now you have to eat ever done any fishing united fishing uh... i'm gonna sound like a real sissy here but i don't like taking those folks on the fish is not quite agree i really I'd much rather order out. Could you cultivate instead? I could. As a matter of fact, we used to grow...

Potatoes in Montana when we immigrated to the United States, so at least I have that in the background. Well, that's something. I don't know what you'd grow in the sand and dress it around, no. Would you try to escape? Depends how desperate I was, I suppose. Yes, I think I could. Yeah, I sail. You do? Oh, well you know a bit about navigation. Yeah, no, not navigation, but I sail. I can't find a dock again, but I can get out. I think you stand a reasonable chance. And we got to record number seven. Which is Adam and the Ants. And the reason I'm choosing Adam and the Ants is because... I brought it home one day for my wife to hear on a cassette. And we're listening to this song and we're having the greatest time. It has such energy. It's very simplistic, but it has such energy. And I just remember my wife's attitude and listening to it. She has such a great love of life and great vivaciousness. And it reminds me of that quality in her.

Listening to his ant music. Ant music by Adam and the Ants. Now the two Muppets which have caught on best of course in this country are Kermit and Miss Piggy. Yes, Kermit is Jim Hansen. - Oh, there's somebody at the door now. - Excuse me, is this the place? Oh, hello! Yes, Ray Plumlee. Hi! I had no idea you were coming to see us. Well, this is a really interesting studio.

I've never seen this before. Well, it's just a studio. Yes, what I'm surprised about it's so tacky. Bit tacky. We'd have done it up if we... But charming, charming, tacky. Tacky but charming. Yes, we'd have done it up if... We'd known you were coming. Yes, well I just dropped in. I just wanted to say hello. You really do. Look at Dish. I mean that's a lovely gown you're wearing. Yes. Did Frank buy it for you? Mr. Oz, the gentleman here, you've met him surely? I'm sorry, I don't know the gentleman. Oh, well, Mr Oz, Miss Piggy, how do you keep your marvellous figure? I mean, let's face it, most little piggies get plump. Well, being the superstar with moi-m, moi needs to have a... Regimen. Tell me about your diet regimen.

I wake up in the morning, I have an incy-mincy-tincy piece of toast, and then I think of all the things I could have eaten for breakfast, which of course means that I have saved that. Many calories and then I eat them later on in the day four times You ever reveal your age? And that's just in the morning. Just in the morning. I was making a kind of tentative overture to one of the I'll ask you how old you were. Ah, I wouldn't if I were you. All right, well I... I don't want to embarrass anybody. Thank you. About your private life, there have been some rumors about you and Kermit. The rumors are all true. Kermit is desperately in love with moi. And you, Vu and Kermit. He is my magnificent obsession. I'm told you live in considerable luxury in this country.

You have a gold-plated shower. Did Kermit give you that? Well, I must be honest with you. I think this is what the press agent probably told you. I must tell you the truth, that I do not have those things. Kermit does not pay for those It seems as though, uh, Kermy is a bit mad at me, and now my dressing room is next to the rats and the dancing chickens. - I'm so sorry. - Yes. Well, we had a little obverse tiff, but I'd rather not talk about it. I hope it's over very, very quickly. He'll come to his senses and if he doesn't I'll see that he does. How do you like working in London? I'd go anywhere with my kermie. And I love London and Trumy does too. And of course we're great pig lovers, we always have been. I'm sorry about that, I am spoken for. Yes, don't accept that as a thing.

As a proposal. I don't want any trouble with... I don't want any trouble with... It usually happens, that's all. Well, would you forgive us because... Frank, Oz and I are doing this program. I'm happy to leave. It's been a very boring program so far, so I... Oh, charming. Thank you. I have to go watch a tree grow, which is much more interesting. Would somebody open the door... Well, nothing personal, Ray. Somebody open the door for Miss Piggy. Ta, Ray. Ta. Goodbye, Miss Piggy. Well, Frank, you've got one more? Programmed. One more... She's got me confused. - Why'd she complain? - You've got one more... One more disc to choose. Yes, this is another disc, the last disc here today by Mose Allison. Wilson, obviously somebody I'm crazy about. This particular cut is called Parchment Farm. It's one of those, a couple of dozen that I could easily choose.

Terrific. Parchment Farm by Mose Allison. Only one disc out of the eight that you've played as Frank which would it be young man mose and the particular the cut we played was Don't Get Around Much Anymore. - Mo's Allison again. - Yes.

And I have a very subdued energy about him that I love. And what? What luxury to take with you to the island. Any one thing you would like to have which is of no practical use? Clean sheets. Clean sheets? Yes. An incessant supply, so that you don't have to... Yes, well if one is sunburned, those clean sheets feel wonderful. Yes, yes. I take it somebody's already said, I mean, that there is a phonograph on the island to play these discs on. There is indeed, but it's a solo part, it's very sophisticated. This sounds like a very good island. It's not bad, as islands go. And one book, apart from the Bible and Shakespeare, which are already waiting for you. Well, that's easy for me. It's The Complete Works of Emily Dickinson. The Complete Works of Emily Dickinson. Yeah. Right. And thank you, Frank Oz, for letting us hear your Desert Island Discs. Thank you. Goodbye everyone.