Hello, I'm Kirsty Young and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For tonight's reasons, we've had to shorten the music. The program was originally broadcast in 1989, and the presenter... Was Sue Lawley. My castaway this week is one of Britain's great character actresses. She's been in the business for as long as she's lived, having first appeared on the stage at the age of eight weeks. In a hundred films and played in countless theaters from the Royalty Morecambe to the Theatre Royalty Drury Lane. In recent years, her talent has come to be enjoyed by an even wider audience.

Voted her best television actress for her performance in the Alan Bennett play A Cream Cracker Under the Satie. She comes from Lancashire but you can find her characters everywhere. She is Thora Hurd, a member of Equity at eight weeks - Oh no, not really. No, my mother was in a play that was being directed... Or they called it produced in those days, far back, by my father, and she was playing the village maid, who'd been done wrong by the squire's son. I played the unfortunate result. But I was eight weeks old, and my dad was about 40 years ahead in the business. Truthfully so, he was. And he wouldn't have a baby with a wooden head in a shawl that might knock on the scenery, anything like that, you know, and he just said to my mother, Take her on. And I can honestly say it was the first and only job I've ever got through influence.

We'll talk more about your life in a second, but tell me first about you, Thora, on a desert island, because I have this vision of you being a bit like Doris in a cream cracker under the city, sitting there kind of bemoaning your fate. Well, I wouldn't bemoan with fate, because that was Doris, and I'm not a bemoaner, but I would really hate it, Sue, because I don't... I'm not very fond of my own company, and I'm used... Surrounded anyway so if there were flowers on this famous island or nice pebbles I would find myself doing a bit of art one way or another, but I would talk to myself. Are you a cleaner upper? Would you kind of establish routines? Oh, not mange. Not mange, love. I'm nearly a nuisance. Not so much now that I'm older, but I don't... That disease about getting up and cleaning the house then starting again. But I'm a little bit more concerned about the future of the world.

Little bit tidy, if I may say. Before we go to the cottage, I wipe all the... Down the sides of the sink with tap and all this, you see. And Scotty will say, Oh, haven't I? The spring cleaning started, now I've got the engine running. I said, I'm just leaving this to come into, and I walk into it. At the other end. And are you a good cook? I would make do with something I think. But will you need your music to keep your pecker up? Will that help? Well that would be beautiful. That would be beautiful. So what was, what's the first record you'd like? Well, the first record I've chosen is Temptation Rag. Now, that's a very, very old tune, but when I was a little girl, I had four cousins. Tap dancers. We didn't call it tap dancing then, it was called walloping. And from being four years old, I didn't know I was only four when this happened, but we had a...

Tile floor in our kitchen in the north and they would kneel in front of me and take my little foot and say one two three and we had a record of that So it was put on very slowly on the gramophone and then later on when I had like a group of girls I always have that tune because I'm a bit like that. I'm a bit silly, nostalgic, you know. But it's a wonderful time.

Now send to him. - The Temptation Rag played by the Pasadena Roof Orchestra and Thora Walloping away. I never knew tap dancing was called walloping. - You're not old enough. And I mean that truthfully. I mean, I was scarcely old enough to know but it was my cousin.

Who told me this and they are the living tap dancing in the business, you know. This was all in Morecambe, wasn't it? Yes, Morecambe in Lancashire. Born and bred. Born and bred. Now tell me about your mother. She was an actress and a singer. Yes, my mother was Maury Mayor. That was the name. Well, it was the real name by the way, Maury Mayor. My father was James Henry Heard. I was a singer, my father was front of house manager some weeks, a comic the other, and it was quite a bit of a Quite true that my father fancied my mother, if that's the expression I can use on your programme. They... You see, the johnnies used to wait at the stage door for the girls with flowers, and one johnny waited about four nights. Next day, my mother and dad went on a picnic, and he proposed that day just in case, like the fellow was there that night. Well, that's what my mother said. They used to tour around before they had to, yes? Oh yes, and boasted that they had been in every county in England and had postcards to prove it, you know.

It was hard work in those days because there were one night stands, a lot of them, you know. But what happened then when you came along? Well, this was it. My mother... Been married nearly six years when she said she wanted some children but she didn't want the two of them. So my father and my mother, Morecambe was my mother's hometown, and they went to Morecambe. And it wasn't very easy to get a job, but my father was a very good swimmer and got the job as the... Whatever you call it in charge of that bear bathing pool. I don't mean bear without clothes. Bear is at the end of the promenade at Morecambe. Well, he was the lifeguard, isn't he? Well, they didn't call it that then, but he was everything in charge. Paid your threatens to him, you know. He wasn't there very long, because soon after that he went as manager on the West End PA, do you see. Went to the Alhambra, and then after the Alhambra to the Royalty Theatre, from the Royalty Theatre to the Centre of Pierre, moving up a little track.

In this. So always the theatre was there for you? And did they teach you everything you knew then? My father was very critical, but always constructively and never destructively. and anything if I do know anything about comedy timing or or pathos anything I owe to my dad. Nothing was too much trouble. And he would say to me while we were in the car, eating, you know. That line when you say to the man, or the broken speech, or something, Why did you do it like that? And of course, you know, in your tea. I'd say, Well, you see, Dad, because... And he said, I thought so, because that is wrong. And then he... Would tell me how to do it. And he would really break that speech up. If you put the inflection on that word, you'll get a laugh, but not with the word you're doing. It's extraordinary how if you just put the...

On one word and not another. It's a funny line. And you went and put that into practice and it worked? Oh yes, oh yes. What about ordinary school though? Because you did go to school. I went to a private school, do you mind? Oh my dear. One was so awake. Very posh. Miss Nelson's school. And I have to say so. I know we're all inclined to be a little bit faithful to anything... To do with our past lives, but by job they go in education. I left school when I was 14 and, well... My birthday's in May, so I left school. And the day that we're all going back to school, a clean blouse and my gym slip on, and I stood in the front room window at home. And My mother said, Thora, where are you? And I was watching the girls go up our street to school. My mother never said a word, she just got me school bag, brought it in, put it on the table and said, Go and ask Mr. Nelson if you can go.

Back for another term. I was out quicker than I've told you. And I never sung 'Holy, holy, holy' so well in my life as that morning when I went back to school. I loved it. Loved it so much. I loved school. Shall we have your second record? Well, now, the second one. That we're having is blaze away to do with school because briefly... We had an annual school concert and it was a good concert. We always finished with the entire school marching on the stage, snakes and everything. Always to blaze away. After the first two bars, I am there and of course... If you ever became the lead of that, you know, you're out, that's all your relatives. I'm leading this year. And did you lead?

Only one, yeah.

Away played by the Royal Artillery band with Thora Heard up front. Having said you were born and bred for the theatre, you didn't go right into it, did you? No, no. Oh no. No, I was in there. I met yours in Morecambe for a long time, which really brings me nearly to my next record in a funny way. Do note. As I sit here, I don't know if this person is alive. I do hope he is. He was called Freddie Tomlinson, and he was the best wolf. I mean old-fashioned salsa. Ever, ever. And whilst we reverse... No trouble. Oh, he was a good wassail. I had seen the film at the Palladium. Well, I think it was Jesse. I can't remember in a black velvet dress at least half of it was the other half was silver Lorax you see and four times in the nine pennies to draw it. And then went to the little lady around the corner, Mrs. Harewood, who made it.

For me and I can remember what the first time I wore that dress waltzing with Freddie Tomlinson and thinking just to excuse. Would you look at this? I think youthful conceit is beautiful because you're not hurting anybody are you? Where had you met him then? Oh in the armatures I should have said that, he was one. Oh I don't mean we were going to have a boy and girlfriend or anything like that because you were all chums in the armatures. Matures, you know, my dad would direct them, but I mention it because really, and I've with some beautiful waltzes but oh our Fred he was the best oh yeah we better hear this waltz which one is it well it's silver and gold and I should have Time I had the dress of Winnie Woltz with Freddie they were playing this so there again every time I hear this lovely music I I just

And of course it's Strauss. And I love Vienna and all around there, don't you?

Strauss's Gold and Silver Wolfs, op. 79, played by the Johann Strauss Orchestra of Vienna, conducted by Vili Boskovsky. And that was Thora Hurd and Freddie Tomlinson swirling round the monument. Was this when you were working in the co-op, Thora? Because you did a stint there, didn't you? Yes, yes. The great thing about that was you... See, we had the most fantastic customers there. Any shop has, if you look hard enough. I played them nearly all so truthfully. You see, when I'm not a good enough actress to go...

The character. I'll think of somebody that came in the co-op. Maybe if I'm thinking, when I'm doing a certain part, I'll think, oh I'll put a... Mrs. X in there, you know. Yeah, in her best hat. Like the well-off voice I use in things. You see. The which voice? The well-off voice as we call it. I never used that in my life because it was my auntie. And when I was about... Five or six hours in Manchester and she gave me some watercress for my tea and told me to eat it There was a lot of iron in it and the shop bell went and she went through the curtain and now she said, Now eat that because... Was a lot of iron in it. When she went into the shop, I heard her say, Oh, hello, Mrs. Armitage, and if you're little, I-- I thought you'd have a voice in the shop that was different than the one when they were feeding somebody with watercress. Do you see? It says in your Who's Who in the theatre entry that you began your career in 1931 when

Yeah, well, I've done a little, a few bits before then, in rep, pound a week. Oh, yes. But you see, I've got a lot of work to do. And that I was never important in rap. There were only two or three occasions. I have to say, in one play called 'As You Are', they cast me as the mother-in-law. Happened to come on the Tuesday because Ealing Studios had bought that play to make a film for him. And he asked to see me after the play and... To make that brief, the result was, he said, Oh, I think you're proper champion in this. I'd love you to play it in the film. This sounds just a line to say that to you now, but could you imagine a pound a week in rap and somebody said, I'd love you to play it in the film. Hmm. I mean, this was the... unattainable, you see. Tuesday and the Friday night, a gentleman came up for Mealing, but I didn't know it was Gordon Hamilton Gay, the casting director, and he said...

Miss her? And I said Yes. And he said I have come from London to see you play. And I said Oh, but the fairs... £17.79. It was then to London and he said, Well, never mind that, may we go out to supper? And I hate to tell you we did and all I had was... Alcoholics because I couldn't eat anything with this thing and they tested me I came to town for it and of course A Milton boo ending would be that I got the part, but I didn't because I wasn't old enough, but I got a contract. Ten pounds a week if I didn't work. Ten pounds a day if I did. So what sort of work did you get? Well, the first... Film was the Will Hay film Black Sheep at Whitehall and they kept pushing me and said girls test you see and understandably said no I want somebody who's known and the test

As they used to in those days, so many. And then he said, Well, I'll see the test. And I am told, because I wasn't there, that he said, What a face, send a telegram. What do you mean when they said, What a face, look at this face? What was it like? That's right, well because... Done this test they said now go and get the beauty treatment you see well just imagine And lashes, the little rosebud lips, the curls all here. And the fact was... That I didn't understand the test. So when I hadn't done it right the first time, I didn't realise they were doing medium clothes. Upsides and all this I didn't realize and I thought I wasn't doing it right and turned around and said to them well that's it If I haven't done it right now, I didn't ask to come down. You ask me and I'm doing all this.

I was shooting it and I didn't know this. And then somebody said cut and they had that test. And the following morning I went to Rosh's Theatre, saw the board come on, thought I had a clap. Saw these curls and these lips and me saying, look, if I haven't done it right now, I mean, there's no point in it because you asked me to, I didn't ask to come down here and I'm doing all this and that got me the contact. - So it was the real Thora Heard? - Truly. They'll look funny enough because I've never been a raving beauty, you see. But that's what got me the contract. Do you think in some ways that's gone on being true? That actually it is the real Thor I heard, it is what you are? Well obviously when I play the...

In last the summer wine if I was like that with my husband he'd have left me years ago you follow and a lot of things like that but I do and well any of us try to get to the nitty-gritty don't we and play it let's pause and have another record shall we number four Are we Cumberland Gapping? Oh, ha ha! Lonnie Donegan. I suppose I have nearly every record of his, but I love that one.

He gets so excited, he says Umblin' Gap. It's a good dusting one, is that? You're right, it's an umblin' gap. But it's a good dusting one if you've worked to do it in the house, you know. I love records, I like them when I'm a bit fast. Oh yes. Let's talk about the theatre. Because if you've done 100 films, you've surely done 100 theatres. Oh, yeah, many more. Many, many more.

You count a weekly rep, you know, say one a week then. Oh, yes. Now, your first London appearance was at the Vaudeville in October 1944. That's right. As Mrs. Game in No Medals. No medals. That's the McCrackenfield medals with Faye Compton and Frederick Lester starring. And then there was Mrs. Holmes in Flowers for the Living. Oh, well, now, that play. Really did everything for me. That's sort of been your favourite part? Not my favourite. Part but a very very good part a heartbreaking part and The following day, you know, I mean, there were so many offers for films and things, one couldn't do them all. Was the moment in anybody's life that's great, isn't it? Wonderful. You've done some Shakespeare, too, as well as some classic-- Not a lot, as Paul Daniels would say. Not a lot. You remember Cedric Messina did a one a month beat production?

Yes, on telly for BBC. I did the nurse in Romeo and Juliet and Mrs Hardcastle in she's Conquer and enjoyed them both. Shall we have some more music then? Yes please. So what we're, oh we're on to number five already aren't we? Well it's... But the lonely heart and believe you me if I am easily moved when I'm playing but if it was the morning when I wasn't easily moved I'd only have to... Play the first eight bars of this and then be off.

But the lonely heart played by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Ettore Strata. That would give me a lovely excuse on the island if I was sorry for myself. Have a good week. I would. Talk about you and the Alan Bennett roles, the latest of which brought you the BAFTA award for Best Actress for a cream cracker under the settee. It was a wonderful part, wasn't it? Oh yes, yes, yes. How would you describe Doris? She was a strange combination because she aroused great sadness but also there was a lot of humour in it. This is clever Alan. Alan Bennett, the Mr Wonder Man. I mean, Alan can write a line and I promise you, said one way, you would break your heart. Said another way, it is very, very funny. But to me, the one thing that's frightened me so much about Alan, he doesn't. Right so well he doesn't have to mention a word. I mean, now everybody didn't see Creamcracker.

I mentioned about the baby and saying I would like to have called it John, but the nurse said it wasn't finished. To be called anything and not in the newspaper. He might just as well have put over the ... Screen miscarriage miscarriage you knew it never mentioned the word hmm you just Well, the viewers too and a lot of people send this to me. Did you watch yourself back? Well, I did. The first time I saw it, of course, there was the usual thing. Ooh, I could have done that better. Then I saw it for a second time and was still thinking I could have done... No, you'd never see yourself... I would never see myself thinking, Tho, that's it. But you must have been a bit moved when you saw that. Oh, I was moved. I was very moved. I did not have been moved when I was playing it, I'll tell you. Of course you've played lots of his characters.

Before them. They always have such wonderful lines in them, don't they? Well, they do, yes. Always lines that the public remember, you know. When I did the play, I did two that were in the hospital. One I did where I was a patient in hospital. Little Chinese boy, a young fella, had brought a box of chocolates for somebody. I can't remember the situation entirely, but the thing was that I was offered one. He wrote the line, and this is not absolutely right, but like the line was, It'll take more than a box of Cadbury's milk tray to wipe out the memory of Pearl Harbor. Was that the one when the husband came to call and you had those wonderful conversations? Yes, and he had written and Alan was so aware that if people are not serious...

I'm about to come out, and the husband comes every afternoon. Of course they run out of things to say. But I remember the husband coming to say... Me that and sitting there. We're both sitting saying nothing and he suddenly says and in the This morning and she never said anything and then she you saw her face thinking and she turned and she said which book it did you use He said, Well, that red one, that plastic one, and she said, Well, that's not the Floor bucket. Not thanking him for having done the floor and just used the wrong bucket. He comes out with lines that women laugh at. Do you know? - They were just so very real. - Oh, true, true. In Cracker Under the Settey, I think.

She was pointing out that her husband was always going to do this and that. She never said, but he never did any of it, do you see? But then she starts to talk about fret work. And then to herself she said... But it was growing mushrooms in the Sala saga all over again. You see, it's beautiful. They're beautiful lines, aren't they? Oh, beautiful. Let's have another record. Oh, yes. Now, where are we to? Don't chink the cups. We're not supposed to be on a picnic. Oh, sorry. Sorry. I'm enjoying the coffee. Well this... This is When the Saints Go Marching In and it is by Sid Phillips. Now stop me because God rest Sid Phillips, I think he was the greatest, greatest clarinet player I've ever heard.

- With anybody? - Great. ♪ When the saints go marching in ♪ ♪ When the saints go marching in ♪ ♪ I wanna be in their number ♪ ♪ When the saints go marching in ♪

When the Saints Go Marching In, Sid Phillips and his band. Yeah, well there's more, I have a bit more affection too to that tune because... That's when I did Hallelujah, the comedy show that leads television, and that was the signature tune, When the Saints Come Marching In, not on the Sid Phillips record, but When the Saints Come Marching In. Of course the television I suppose you're very best known for is... Is irreverently known in the trade as the God spot. Praise be. Yes, isn't it extraordinary. 12th year this year. I'm preparing another set now at the moment. We are preparing, I should say. Well, when I say, Isn't it amazing? it's amazing the pleasure it gives to people and the amount of fan mail on it. I never realised there were so many people in the world with no one. And I mean not with the fourth cousin removed. There's so many people alone.

They all seem to write to me. About their loneliness or...? No, no, never complaining. What are they asking for? Well, I don't... Know. It's very difficult to say this to you without, but you know me well enough to know I've no swank and I haven't. A lot of people have... Feeling I go into the room when I do it, and them doing it just for them, which pleases me, you see, because there's nothing sophisticated about the programme. And they were right to me, one old lady wrote to me and said, when I said... Goodbye on the Sunday, you know. It's, the latter started, Oh, Thora. Not Dear Thora. Or aren't you coming to see me next Sunday? That's heartbreaking, you know, Sue, when they're thinking somebody. I love the fact that people think I've been in the room. But there's also in all of this of course what comes through is your own religious conviction. Oh well. It's very strong isn't it?

without my pal upstairs. I couldn't. And so is there an element of perhaps your having had a happy life and that rubbing off really with all the people who regard you as their friend? I've had 50 years bliss with Scotty. I have a daughter that I am proud of. Of is very loving. I have two healthy grandchildren, I have a son-in-law who is lovely, I have much love around me that it is easy for me to give a bit out do you follow what I'm saying without Sounding and you will find... I don't mean that, I mean ordinary. I mean I say... I'm impressed at the Lord walking about the house many a time. Shall we have some more music there? Here's another one that on the island, if I'm walking about feeling sorry for myself, it'd be a good excuse for me to have a little wee. Just on my own. It's beautiful. It's Mozart's concerto, but you're going to say all that. Well, we'll hear it first and then I'll say it. All right.

It was the Andante from Mozart's Concerto No. 21 in C major played by Richard Claderman of the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. It is a little bit of a cheat that I love it, but I really put that on for Scotty and Jan because they're well into your good music, you know. I wonder if you had not been an actress, which obviously you were destined to be as we've heard. I wonder what you might have liked to have been. Do you see yourself in any other role that life had to offer? Well... Um, not really. The strange thing is, I've always sort of... Happy and all I've done. This is what I think is such a blessing I don't mean it is a blessing when you can But it wasn't clever me adapting myself. I've always been in something that haven't happened. I really have had such a wonderful life and I hope it goes on a bit. And what are you working on now? Well, just finished. Now just excuse me saying...

And one of the most beautiful breathtaking sets I've ever been in. And this was 'Tale of Glass'. The Beatrix Potter tale. Yes. And I walked onto that set... And I am a silly hussy, so nobody needs to write and tell me I am. Do you know, I felt emotional. It was like a painting. Little icicles you know what I mean snow on the trees beautiful it is if Nobody likes the acting. I defy anybody not to say, oh, would you look at that? It looked like a series of lovely cards or one of her books, you know. And who are you in the middle of all this? Well, I'm the housekeeper. And any more Alan Bennets? Oh, I would hope so, please God. Let's have your last record. Right, well, I don't want to be morbid about this.

But this is my favourite hymn anyway, On With Christian Soldiers. I thought it was a good go out. I could march about the island a bit with this, so I love it. Love it. Almond. I've loved this hymn. And, well, I--

I wouldn't mind them playing it, you know, when I've had it, if you want to know. Humbert, then, O people, join our happy throng, When without your voices in triumphant song. Glory, praise, and honor, unto Christ the King. His truth of their strangers, when an angel sings, As they march ever onward, wrist and shoulder, I'll take that to heart with the cross of Jesus.

Onward Christian Soldiers sung by the Harry Simeon Chorale. I defy you not to choose that for the test one of your eight. Oh, it is. That's it, is it? You've got the complete works of Shakespeare and you've got the Bible. What else would you like to have? Well, um... The Bible... I built a great book, isn't it? It is a great book to read. Anyway, I've got the Bible, I've got the Shakespeare. Now, the book, there's no conceits of this, Sue, but I wrote a book called Seen and Heard, S-C-E-N-E, and... H-I-R-D, and there's so much of my childhood in it that I might forget Bit of it on the island so I'll take that to have a read and remind myself. And a luxury. And a luxury. And a luxury. But it can't be any practical use. It's got to be something you just enjoy for itself. I see. Oh, that is so. Difficult you know. I think I wouldn't mind very much taking a bit of nice...

Cleansing milk Because I'm not going to bother all the washing like I might never swim But a little bit of cleansing milk would be nice To make you feel beautiful. Not expensive. Just some tissues, you know. Very little outfit. Right, a little outfit to cleanse Thora Hurd's face. - Thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your desert island discs. - Thank you for having me. It's been lovely. You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For more podcasts,

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