Hello, I'm Christi Young and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in 1982, Roy Plumlee. Away as the writer of best-selling adventure novels Wilbur Smith. Wilbur could you... Endure isolation for a long time? I think I could. I've always been a sort of solitary bird, a learner. To be a writer you have to be. How much does music mean to you? My taste in music have always been very low bra, but my wife is in...

Interested in better music and classical music and she's slowly educating me. To have lyrics. I enjoy a good lyric, you know, words being as important to me as the music. But I work with music going most of the time. I have four or five tapes, my favorite tapes. Which just plays softly in the background in my study when I'm working. Have you any musical skills? Do you play an instrument? I mean even the mouth organ or something like that? I would starve to death if I had to try and make a living now. I really haven't, I can't carry a tune. Even in the Shahs, my wife sort of locks the door, you know, so she doesn't have to listen to when I was singing. Did it take you long to make your list of just eight discs? It didn't within ten or fifteen minutes. They came to hand. Most of the ones that I have chosen are on the tapes. Have in my car and in the study. So they were naturals, they were all old friends. What's the first one? The first one was a

One of my great favourites is Frank Sinatra. And the cut I've chosen is my way, because that's what I like to have. Is my swan song when they when they carry me out feet first that's what i'd like to go out singing unmusically My way Frank Sinatra, My Way. Now you were born in what was then Rhodesia. That's right, northern Rhodesia.

How do your colonial roots go back? Well, my mother's side of the family were pioneers in Zambia. My grandmother was the first white woman on the copper belt. But that's not very fond of her. Back at sort of the turn of the century. And as so often happened in those days, my grandmother returned to England when my mother was born. So we'll... She is pioneer stock, she is English born. Now, your childhood was fairly adventurous. First lion when you were 13? Yes, it's not one of the things I'm terribly proud of because... Very much against hunting of mammals. But there was a different outlook. Yes, there certainly was. My family were, my father particularly was very keen on hunting and the bush life. You know, really hunting wasn't just going out and killing animals. It was the whole...

Thing of going out on safari and when I was, you know, my earliest memories of going out For watching. She scare him round the camp to keep the lions out in the evening and the campfire. At night and the sound of lions sort of just over the hill and you know you cuddle down in your stretchers as a child listening to all the little night. Steps in the trees above you and the owls hooting. It was tremendous, it really was. We were brought up in the... Or in a time? Well, my father was working on the copper belt, which was... It was actually a very small town, it was just a mining camp. And so the bush was 100 yards away. To get on my bicycle and be in the bush in no time. All my friends, well a lot of my friends, were little African boys of the same age. So we used to go off, you know, make slingshots and go hunting birds and cooking them over.

A fire and that sort of thing. Then later on my father had a ranch and that was it. Was sort of really the country life, you know, we had nearly 35,000 acres of ground. There was cattle running on it, but game running with the cattle. And it was a marvellous love for a small boy. That's the time when I used to hunt too. But you know... Again, I never was a schoolteacher, I must emphasize that, and as you say I shall not My first line when I was 13 and it was a big ritual thing, all the Africans dawped me with blood you know and carried me around sort of shoulder-high and it was it was a great life for a small boy. Strange, the same ritual as in fox hunting in this country. Yes. Were you bright at school? My father, when he saw my first school report, said, My boy, let's hope you're going to be lucky in life, because otherwise you're not going to make it. - Yeah. I was good at the subjects that interested me, which were English, history, geography.

The science subjects. I looked at mathematics and I said I don't understand it, I don't want to understand it and that's how I went through life. You went to the University of Rhodes. What did you read? Commerce, economics and accounting. Your ambition, your comment? No, but it was my father's ambition. I wanted to be a writer, I wanted to be a journalist and a reporter. And he said to me, Don't be a journalist. Damn fool you'll starve to death. So do something useful. So I had to go and I got my B.Com and went into account. Let's have your second record. What's that? It's Dave Brubeck. And the cut that I like particularly is Take Five.

Dave Brubeck, Take 5. So, you were a Bachelor of Commerce. What was your first job? The first job I ever had was with a Goodyear tyre and rubber company.

The grandiose title of executive trainee, which meant I was an officer. For it. And I didn't last in that one very long and then I went and worked with my father. Looking after the estate, the farm. At that stage he'd sold the farm and he had a metal factory, a sheet metalworks, and that was when I returned to Rhodesia. Which is now Zimbabwe but was then Rhodesia. And did what? I just ran the office, did the books and did the... The selling, you know, was just a two-man operation, really. And then you had a spell as an income tax, Matt? Yes. The fact... It didn't work out all that well, so I went into government having qualified as an accountant into the Income Tax Department. What's taxation like in South Africa? Is it as punitive as it is here? It's always rotten to have to pay hard-won money to the government, but it's...

It's getting higher all the time, you know, and we do have things like VAT, so that by And the money that sticks to your hand, not very much of it stays behind. Were you doing any bits and pieces of journalism? I started a bi- At that time, when I was in the income tax department, to write short stories. With success? They started to be accepted in magazines and... Tremendous sums of money like five guineas. Twelve guineas when I was lucky. Well, never mind, you've started. So let's break off for record number three. The next one is totally different, it's 'Bat Haven' and it's Herbert von Karajan with the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra and it has no... Because my wife and I were at New Year's Eve, we were at the concert. In Berlin and heard this cut.

You The opening of Beethoven's-- symphony at the Eroica, Herbert von Karajan conducting the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra.

Sitting in that office, sending nasty little buff envelopes to anybody, and writing short stories. When did you write your first book, and what was it? What happened was that my marriage at that stage went on the rocks and I was divorced and had no money, so I had no money. Nothing to do in the evenings. I started writing a book. and... I got so involved in it that I used to take the manuscript to work with me and fortunately at this stage of the game I had a little department all to myself in the income tax department dealing with it. Deceased estates. So I used to let the two ladies who were under me get on with the war whilst I wrote my book. And not only that, I wrote it on government stationery. How did you get on? Is there a flourishing publishing business in South Africa? No, I didn't at all. What happened was, having written the thing, I looked at it and there was this great shaggy heap of paper.

And I got the Artist and Writers Yearbook. From the library because I couldn't afford to buy my own copy. And there was a whole list of agents in the one page. I took a pin and sort of picked one with a pin. South African agents? No, no, in London. And I sent the manuscript off to her and with her. In about 10 days or so I got a wire back to say that the book had been accepted by William Heineman in London, which was fantastic. Advance I had, I think it was £100, which was an enormous sum of money to me. And then Ten days or two weeks after that there was another cable to say that the Reader's Digest had taken the condensed book rights. So I immediately gave up work, and I haven't worked since.

No, this was a marvellous... I mean, you hadn't tried before, you hadn't... Well, we don't actually mention the other effort I had. I had written a novel before that. Oh, tell me about that one. They first make mad, you know, from those whom the gods wish to destroy. And it had all... The faults of the first novel. I got them out of my system. Did you send it round? I did. From some of the best houses in London and New York. And I realized, of course, that one could never make a living at writing after that, so I put it away in a trunk. Actually, I found it again recently. As a penance took it into the laboratory and sort of read through it, flashing most of the time, and saying, Oh, did I really write that? But that's the one we don't really talk about. Right. Now this first one was called... The first one that was accepted was called When the Lion Feeds. And that was the one you sold the content session right? You sold the film rights to it? Yes. Stanley Baker bought the film rights to it.

And it was never made into a movie. But I think the property is still sort of-- floating around film studios somewhere in the world. Yes, you got the money whether it was made or not. That's true. And you got out of the income tax business. So let's break at this happy point for record number four. Here is Don Williams and the cut is You're My Best Friend. Why did you choose this? I always think about my wife when I hear the words to this, and it's one of the things that I sing in the shop. This is the one that she does listen to.

Don Williams, you're my best friend. Your second novel was banned. Yes, it was called The Dark of the Sun and it was... Set in the Congo during the revolution there and there was a story of a band of mercenaries. It was banned in South Africa, I think for sexual descriptions and violence. You must remember that the standards in South Africa are totally different to those that

Part of the civilized world. And books get banned very easily. Particularly at that time. It's not quite as bad as it was then, but they've got a strange system of censorship there. Presumably it was not in any sense a political censorship because you don't write about politics. I very seldom even glance off politics. I find politics really rather boring. And one of the things about politics is that the thing that is a burning issue at one minute, That people have forgotten that it ever existed. I'd like to busy myself or concern myself. Rather with the old values that are always interesting to human beings, you know, power, money, sex, that sort of thing. A lot of action and a story that moves forward fast. It's not your only book to have been banned in South Africa. Nearly all of them might have been banned at one time or another, but they've got a strange system there where they ban a book and then...

Two years later you can appeal against it. So that, you know, it's an ongoing thing every two years you come up before the border game. It always amuses me how something that was obscene at one point in time two years later can be totally acceptable. How many novels have you written? 16 altogether in something like 17 and a half, 18 years. So it's virtually a book a year for 16 years. Them with a South African background? No, I would say about half of them are set in Africa and there are others that are sort of a wider range but Africa is the thing that I know best and love best and write about best. 16 novels and they're all in print at this moment. That is the marvellous thing about having a good publisher and it's a good feeling to go into an airport somewhere in the... An obscure part of the world and see them all lined up in all the jackets. I'm sure it is. Record number five.

Well, I've chosen the Oscar Peterson trio. I love all his stuff so much that the choice was quite arbitrary. In fact, which one did you settle for? I settled finally for... Cheek to cheek.

Oscar Peterson trio, cheek to cheek. You said you sold your first novel for a film. How many films have been made of your book? Let's think about it quickly. There was Goldmine. Yes, that became gold. That was gold, yes. And then there was Shout at the Devil with Frodo Moore and Lee Marvin. And the Dark of the Sun, which was with Rod Taylor, and that's it. Yes. As we mentioned, most of them have been bought by film companies, but in the present climate, you know, things are pretty tight. Film business as they are generally. Is there a film business we ask? How much work did you do on the film script? I worked on the scripts of Shartadevo End of gold. But you know, I'm actually pleased that I didn't go... Slanted towards the film industry because it's it's tempting to do so it's tempting to start

writing film scripts rather than books and then changing them into books afterwards. I think that that way lies disaster. and you know... When you write a book, a novel, it's a team of one, it's you. You get all the kudos and you take all the brick back that's thrown at you. But if you end up as a writer of film scripts or books that are easily translated into films, You're very low down in the hierarchy, you know, in the pecking order. Everybody comes in. In front of you including the Klepper loader and the T-Gol. I'm glad that I write books and not film scripts. You mentioned Goldmine, which became the film Gold. With that with the amount of research that obviously you had done a tremendous deal of to me conveying saying technical stuff about mining. Yes, well I went and actually lived on one of the big South African gold mines for several

I went on shift, I was in the stops with the black miners and you know, it really is. It's a fascinating proposition, such an enormous amount of human endeavor and ingenuity. To go down miles, literally miles into the earth and support it. For instance, the refrigeration, the air cooling system, because when you go down to those depths of course the earth is hot and they have to pump. Down from the surface and cool it's a it's a you know it's literally hundreds of millions of pounds investment in these huge mines yes you've done a lot traveling on your researches? Yes, I enjoy traveling, my wife enjoys traveling as well. And so if I have to write a book, if I have to mention Israel or Paris or Florida.

It's an excuse to go, then. Of course. Do you sometimes employ a professional researcher to dig stuff out for you? Yes, I do. A full-time professional researcher. That's my wife. She just gets so bored in lodging there, you know, I don't pay her much. But really she's so good. If I need something and I'll say to her, look, I want to know about so-and-so, she'll go down to the library and dig things out. If I want to go on to say an oil rig or a salvage tug, it's so much better to send a pretty girl down to talk to the people and break the ice with them, you know, so she does that sort of thing and she's very good. She smooths the way for me and I follow like a gentleman. Now all this African local law which is throughout your book, do you speak any other language? African dialect? Not as well as I would like to. I speak the sort of lingua franca of Africa, they call it Fanigaloi and Chilapa Lapa.

Is a mixture of many African languages based mostly on the coastal Swahili and the Zulu. It's the language that they use on the gold mines and wherever there are many African people of different tribes together because they can't speak each other's dialects, you know, it'd be an interest. Thing I must do it is to find out how many dialects there are in Africa even in southern Africa but I can get along if I get into say the Botswana bush I can usually find someone in the village who I can communicate with. Afrikaans? I understand it better than I speak it, but I can certainly get along fairly well in Afrikaans. Record number six. Well, I've picked Georges Zamphir because I just... Have the sound of the pipe, that sort of beautiful, mysterious sound, and the cut-out... Hersin is the theme from Evita because I've seen that musical three or four times and loved it.

Don't cry for me, Argentina. Giorgi Zamfir. Wilbur, what's your working plan? Do you work regular hours? Yes, discipline is absolutely essential. If you had to just wait until inspiration came, the tuna would be running out in the bay and inspiration would drift away whilst you went fishing or your power would drift up and you'd... Sit in the garden and drink beer with him. It has to be office hours, 8 o'clock till Do you work straight on the typewriter? No, I don't tap at all. I've got these calluses on my two fingers, on my right hand from a ballpoint pen. I put it all down in a long hand. Or is it a good day's work? It depends. If I'm writing dialogue, it'll be much... Than descriptive action sequences, you know, because you really have to think about each one. If I can do 5,000 words, that's a pretty good day. That's a good day, yes.

In the length of your books? Particularly the earlier ones tended to be much shorter. Say gold mine for instance. Nowadays I seem to have to need more canvas to lay my thoughts out. Do you relax? You swim, I know, and fish. Any field games? Do you play golf? No, I used to play golf, but I found it was terribly time-consuming, particularly that 19th... So we walk a tremendous amount. We are... Terribly keen on wildlife, particularly bird life. My wife is a photographer. She loves wildlife photography. I don't, I used to do it, but I find now it gives me double vision looking through that little lens finder the other time. So what I do I'm the one who climbs up the trees or drives the vehicle up to a lion or an elephant or because my sort of selfish hobby is fishing.

Talking all the time about anti-blood sports and that, but there I am naughty, I do fish. For instance, I've just been to Australia where I caught a black marlin of a thousand pounds in weight, which is... That's a big fish. Well, it was 15 foot long. But on the other hand I caught another 9 mile in all 800 or 900 pounds in weight Which I cut loose and released to let swim away free 900 pounds in weight, that's underweight, you throw them back. Yes, there's a tiddler's under a thousand pounds. You're having a year off? Yes, marvelous. It could become a way of life. No, but at the end of this year, at 10.50, and I, as we said earlier on in the program, I've written 16 books in virtually 16 years, and I feel I deserve it. We've taken a year to swan round the world, go to all the places we should have been to but never where we've been, up the Nile to Luxor, to the temples of Karnak and the Valley of the Kings we've been.

On safari in Kenya, we've been to India and Australia and the Seychelles and... Off on our way now to Alaska to go and fish for salmon. So it's absolutely, it's a memorable year. It will be, you know, the gem of my life. It's about where future books will be laid. Possibly. Another record. Now Gershwin because I do enjoy him so much and it's a cut from their Rhapsody in Blue.

George Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue with the composer at the piano and Paul Whiteman's And a recording from the 20s. Well, you're used to tropical living. You can hunt and fish. You should be able to cope on a-- island? I hope so, yes. You could rig up a hut of some sort? Yes, I could. You could campfire cook? I've done it very often. And I enjoy cooking breakfast over a campfire. Are you a good navigator? Would you build a craft of some sort and set off? Yes, I have done a course in Astra navigation and I have my pilot's license so I can do cross country and all that sort of thing. Marvelous, we can't wait to send you. Back in 24 hours. Your last record. My last record... But is again one of my favourite vocalists is Nat King Cole and we've chosen Rambling Rose as a good rollicking...

Version of it. Oh, I love you with a love true. Oh, you can cling to a rambling rose. Nat King Cole, Ramblin' Rose. If you could take only one disc out of the eight. I think it'd have to be Beethoven. Will they enjoy the lyrics of some of them? I think they'd drive you mad after the first six months, but you can live with Beethoven. And you're allowed one luxury, one item of no practical use, which would give you pleasure to have with you.

That's a rough one but I had a short list of two. One was a table setting of silver and crystal and linen. So that when I made sure that will give you a dinner jacket as well, right? I could imagine if I have to eat raw fish and drink coconut juice that I would have it in crystal but finally I decided on my big brass bedstead from home and the feather mattress. You know, it's the size of a polar field and it's very, very comfortable. All right, Bill. For a waterproof plastic cover. And one book, you already have the standard issue of the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare. Well, I had a short list of Plutox Lives and the complete Oxford English Dictionary.

I finally decided on the dictionary because I can read that endlessly. You know, one word leads to another and you've got all the references from English literature as well, so it's not only just the words, it's all sort of beautiful references back to archaic English and everything. And thank you Wilbur Smith for letting us hear your desert island discs. I enjoyed it very much, thank you Roy. Goodbye everyone. Listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For more podcasts, please visit

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