If she had him, scalp seems anything having heard the disagreement between the prince it's a nurse, a party on this special data episode of doktor death having had the instrument, the deadly weapon that unite us I've got some updates on what happened since the doktor death podcast first released a month ago. I ll be back to tell you more about it. With a fellow reporter and fellow Texan, David Brown he's the host of the podcast business wars and a former host of public radios marketplace we'll be right back.

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from wondering I'm Laura Deal- and this is doctor death. This is a special update episode. From time to time will be releasing new episode to keep you up to date on the story of Christopher, dense and our medical system, so please subscribe wherever your listing right now? If you want to continue getting new episodes of doktor death also had a number of people who knew Christopher Duntsch reach out to me, since this podcast first aired I'll, be speaking with them over the coming weeks and months, and I've gotten email after email of people saying you should investigate this doctor or that doctor or this abuse of the healthcare system

the stories, will break your heart today, I'm here with David Brown, the host of the pod cast business Wars Laura. I think I speak on behalf of all your listeners who been riveted by this. How did you hit a nerve here the response was really unbelievable in the beginning. I just wanted to tell a good story and do it as thoroughly as I could cause. I thought it was important. I didn't actually anticipate that it would be quite as big as it has in that it would touch people so much. I think because, as I said before, I think it he touch people because the story is not just about Christopher Don. I think the realisation that this could have been any of us with what made this story, I think both really hard to listen to. And really impossible, not to listen to

but it's also not over, and I feel I feel like I'm really lucky to get a chance to talk with you about that next step. Then next layer. That happens because I know a lot of listeners want some answers to two. Where does it go from here? There's been doktor dentures appeals hearing, for example, and I think was a weird story about a billboard in Dallas the disappeared, something along those lines. Yes, the disappearing billboard. Maybe we should begin with the appeals hearing when we ended the pied cast. Christopher dance was in prison, he remains and present, but he's hoping and his family's hoping that that's not where the story ends. Yeah filed an appeal, and so over the past year there been a lot emotions filed back and forth for him to get a new trial and so

September eighteenth was the hearing in front of the judges. We have two matters said submissions warning call the first, the first one zero five one servants Euro zero to three five c r, Christopher Daniel versus state of Texas. So maybe you can set the same described. What's the room was like what the ambient which, like that sort of thing, so anybody he's been than a normal civil court ran Kennedy sure said: there's the one judge on the bands. There's the jury, there's a place for the jury, there's that witness box there's a place for spectators, so the appeals court is is not like that at all and this particular room Was- was huge. It was a very big room. There would benches, proceeding kind of like rows of church peace, but less eating than their normally

the criminal trial there's no place for witnesses. There's no place for a jury. It's these three judges up high on the bench and then there's a lectern for each attorney to make their case they take turns in they stand in front of the judge and make their case. The indictment is the strangest incitement. I've ever read an accessory from the law for twenty years, it'll ledges the manner and means of the injury, in this case by male position in inner body device. Mouth fishermen, petticoats crews in amputating left out five, nor what the state alleges that, during a surgical procedure, my client, harm education. No, what about Christopher Dutch was either now everybody you knew. I went to the appeals hearing that the first question I have Was he therein and what did he look like? He was not there. It was only the attorneys his family was there. His father was there some

some of his family members, some of the victims were there and, and Family members, I saw Barrymore go off there. Kelly Martens family there and I believe the district attorney keeps the families updated. Bout whats going on so if they, if they want to go, there can, and so the idea here is that the facts have already been established at the trial level. Now we're talking about, as I understand it, really the law, the legal issues was the trial fair. That sort of thing exactly Laura thing for a lot of listeners who ve heard all the evidence that you presented here. They may be wondering what isn't this just an open and shut case wise in it. It's not an open and so case? At all, remember there's never been a case like this, so this is new ground for everyone

Balloonist. Long time you cited, we tell us, there's not a single case, your wherever in the state of Texas Work, a case like this with broad having blocked anywhere else. Does it happen anywhere United States, your knowledge? those countries. Appeals attorney is a woman in turn again and that's her specialty as criminal appeals, and she was making a kind of slippery slope argument that what the state wants to do is, in this case, allow district attorney's to prosecute searches for their entire career. So if they have a bad outcome for, if they have three vat outcomes in a field that is risky is very surgery, then they're gonna put research is on trial for their entire, where we know that they picked you? Where do you start because a lot of these procedures, especially in Europe? Thirdly, there inherently dangerous and come-

Patients are not uncommon, and that threshold he. So where do you draw that mine? So I think you described nursery as chapter on a razor blade, so it is a very risky for sea area of medicine that has these sorts of outcomes, soaked to punish someone who say they intended or the new they're gonna harm someone when they were trying to treat their patient is expensive, brightening me and we want the doctors who have the knowledge to have the freedom to do what they need to do without looking over their shoulders, perhaps not going the extra mile if they are worried about what the outcome might be right, this really get to the heart of weather.

What happened in the operating room. That day with Mary effort should have been considered a crime. The outcomes work great. I can see that, but if you hurt his patient neurosurgeon, he could have found a much less obvious way of doing that. If that was really using them. And one of the judges. I thought ask a really interesting question. I got you that is open to rapidly storage for your knowledge about the outcome he's had for actual you that sufficient or is not sufficient to say he shows nortons we're. Ok, just for the argument that that's not if you, Consider this a crime, if you consider that Christopher done was committing a crime were then how complicit are all the people around him You know it seems, like the judge, really press the states lawyer heart

He did I mean all the judges did they pressed they press both sides hard that that's what made it really interesting you could tell that they have given us. A lot of thought and they're gonna have to give it a lot of thought. After this there, obviously thinking through the broader long term, implications Caesar legal implications, medical implications, whether other things brought up in the appeal. Well, the cold blood. Killer, email, random email from seven months prior in so it that's that that goes on its five pages long rambles, but in any calls himself a cold blooded occur. They talked about that email pages in the record, Drakos and arguments, and in fact the prosecutor said the email tells you everything you need and about. What's in his head, they relied heavily on that email, which was outrageously prejudicial and not relevant until

four dentures appealed. Attorney is saying that that shouldn't have been admitted that it was. It had nothing to do with Mary efforts can, and it was only admitted to influence them Mary and, as we heard from both his defence attorneys and from Michel Sugar? The jury definitely did react to it or something brought up in opening statement by the state. There's this overarching question: why email was the closest thing we had to bridge the gap that's just in Johnson whose handling the appeal for the state to stab wishes to do she reached bodily injury or death to a patient. I think rational, jurors, fitting far from that and other evidence, the possibility to. I think it replaces conclusively freezing no you're like a burden to get to the first recently was knowingly well. How did both sides feel about how this first hearing? When will I couldn't really talk to either?

turning so Miss Stearne again is not making statements yet because the cases ongoing and actually neither is just and Johnson, because the cases still pending. So I couldn't get a direct reaction from either of those, but afterwards outside the courthouse, I did speak to Michel Sugar, who is there watching the appeal. It's a little terrible. Sit there and listen to the arguments, because the judges ass such hard questions the most knives and you never know which way they're gonna rule, and so the idea the thought that that they might go against you and you have to try, do all of this all over again and really kind of stops. Your a little bit you ve said to have faith in the process, which is why we do not just want, because about this Michel sugar. That is what the original led prosecutor right. Right, she's, the one who handled the entire while she and her team,

she's the one who led the prosecution the first time around so lore what happens? Next, we wait We wait. Everybody waits the judges, I'm told they can take up to us in a six month a year eighteen months to make their decision. They have a lot of material to go through a lot of points to consider and done so so we just wait for them to make a decision. You have any sense of who's. Gonna win this case, I doubt its unprecedented, and I I have no sense whatsoever. He does get a new trial. Michel shoe Tell me, as she has said from the beginning, she's prepared to take him back to time. We're gonna keep fighting. I may neither way, if there's a variety of issues that they could decide to either uphold overturning the case on if they, overturn any of those issues. We can appeal to other courts. We can ask them

we consider, and at the end of the day we have two retrial Doktor death is brought you by simply safe home security, simply is everything you need, and a security system and nothing you don't before simply safe home security companies were getting away the lot. They were overcharging for outdated, complicated systems and trapping people in pricey contracts that change ten years ago, when an electrical engineering named Chad Laurens had a few friends that were burglarized. They wanted secure but there weren't any good options so chance started simply safe. He got of the hidden fees and contracts he made simply safe, intuitive and easy to use. He just wanted a security company that treated people right now, simply

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Volkswagen Diesel scandal to listen to this and other great series subscribed now to american scandal from wondering. I'm David Brown of business, worse, the pie cast from wondering and I'm with Laura Beale, who is the host of this by cast, which is called doktor death? It's become an incredible sensation and Laura. I guess we can't put it off any longer. Shall we talk about Bill or gate. Finally, yes, yes, a real it was. It was a real cover up here and Alice. Tell us a little bit about what actually have so. I wonder he wondered decided to take out a billboard to advertise the podcast and say I wasn't involved in this decision, but when we took out a billboard for the podcast and decided what better placed to pay on a main thoroughfare right across the street from Taylor Plano, which is a hospital that was a major player in the quest for dutch story, the first hostile,

where he operated in Dallas and the bill born lasted. I think six to eight hours before it, certainly when black six to eight hours was as long as the billboard was up, I believe was the the lifespan of the of the billboard it cuz. We only know I live on the other side of town, so I have to say I never saw the billboard III live completely. You know I never saw it, but it was on, So we sought on on twitter and some people started tweeting the billboard. I read. I remember when I said that is the definition of shade and end had a picture, the billboard and in that same person. A few hours later treated the billboard is gone. Your call have been forwarded to an automated voice metric system at the talent. Please record your method when you finished recording you may hang up or press one for more,

option Abraham AIDS, car over wondering cells recurrent closely and with the wondering marketing teams called clear channel to try to see what was going on So this morning I received a call from the VP of sale. From clear Channel now lay, and he told me that We cannot place a billboard that location with any material that has to do with doktor death, and I said now Why? Because I the terms and conditions- and he told me that it's not in the in print which ok, whatever somebody the copy creative that they have on they do endless exceptions that, for example, anything that has to do with adult content on be around x amount of Afy from

hospitals or schools etc. What were they referred to? I dont know because to be honest, I I dont know what they consider an adult content. I mean if it's a clear channel policy about adult content. I have to say on my way to the studio today I passed to clear channel billboards, advertising alcohol. Oh, and I don't know if this is a proximity to hospital. I dont know because it in internal. It must be an internal, clear, channel policy, because I did check with the city of playing to see if they had any ordinances, prohibited, particular content around hospitals and does pay let the city a Plano, tell me no, we we don't regulate billboards. In fact, we can, by law, regulate the content of a billboard. So this is something internal to two clear tunnel that is really odd

that's not the end of the story right and then her Non Lopez whose wondering CEO he got on the phone with clear channel to and he asked them directly so they around him the bail or have anything to do. Do they asked for the removal of the real or I'm very quickly She said he did. They didn't directly asked for the removal of a real word and just left at that. Silly to me, the ward directly was telling right. So so this it did get covered in our local paper the Dallas morning NEWS. So they ran one story. They ran the first story that people complain and then they followed up. Another story saying no, it wasn't the complaints. It was this adult content and that's why it was removed. Did paler Plato ask to have this billboard taken down

big company. It's a big company that by the lot of billboards- and I I don't know, there's an interesting series of coincidence- is because the billboard, the day the billboard went up. Everyone who works for Beller Plano got a letter from Naylor President Jerry Garrison. And in that letter it mentions the podcast and it mentions the billboard. And it instructs the employees to contact the public relations team. If, if anybody has any questions about the podcast, her what's happening, and it tells them to keep positive and focus patience, but this letter and I've seen it does a copy made its way to me. It interestingly, doesn't disputes at all any of the facts that were reported in the podcast but it did mention the billboard by name. So so we still

and actually know exactly why the billboard was taken down. But I'll tell you a couple people who really want to know. In addition to those of us here associated with the podcast. I had a follow up conversation this week with Doktor Randal Kirby, who was in the pied case, lie. He was one of the surgeons who was really leading the charge to try to stop Christopher Dent so the whole staff available began, email, saying: there's gonna be a bad advertisements in that podcast and everything within six hours were sending sending the email out the was covered up. So I think the entire medical staff Beller Plano, wants to figure out what happened and he is really determined to find out what happened to the billboards so much so that when I was talking to him there. He called up my client that name sounds from

MIKE Lions was also the podcast he's a plaintiffs attorney. Who is in one of the episodes? The to the two of them are friends. He gets MIKE lands on site, your phone and I'm listening to them discussing legally allergies of how they could compel clear channel to give a sworn statement about what actually happened, and while this is going on, I ask them why they cared a means other than being sources in the story there. Not us, seated with wondering at all? It's really I never saw the billboard, but the billboards doesn't bother me. What bothers me is it's kind of implementing of what the allegations were in these lawsuits right about. You know a cover up that ensue and cover up to prevent people from now on the real truth in it. That's what concerns me

nor I want to be clear about something: was this billboard gay? You know the disappearing billboard and all that I mean it sounds like it could have been a really calculated marketing strategy. I I think a lot of people might wonder you know. Yes, so this was on twitter. This was the big discussion when the publicity came out about the billboard that it was all part of wonder, is evil plan to marketing strategy to get more publicity by taking down the billboard. I, I assure you wonder he had nothing to do with the removal of the billboard. We, as Mr Fide as as everyone else, but obviously the shows gotten a lot of attention from right now, and I record conversations and certainly red emails and read news stories about This might someday the irony of all this is that probably there move all of the billboard got way more publicity because of the discussion of it

has the Dallas morning news stories. It was way more widely noticed than it would have been. If the billboard would simply have been left alone, I want to say too, on the people who have contacted me and it's not even been people who knew him, but people reaching out there was a very moving email that we got from sight. Stranger who just wanted to express sympathy and support Jerry Summers. This is Christopher done his best friend, who has left a quadriplegic, and so I forwarded that message to a friend of of Jerry's and he sent me a note this morning- that he had read it to him, and then he was very moved by it, and

She got very emotional hearing their hearing, the email lore. This has been terrific to get up to speed on where we stand right now, but I know that listeners- and I know you ve- been hearing a lot from them. They still have a lot of questions about what they hurt, in the course of the pod cast- and I understand that in your next episode, you're gonna give me an opportunity to ask some of those questions. Is era absolutely and begin to talk and so that next on doktor death from wondering this is a special. Eight episode of doktor death, an investigative miniseries about the system that failed to protect thirty. Three patients in Dallas, we'll be back next week with Especial ask me anything episode. In the meantime, I want to thank my colleague, David Brown and recommend the podcasting hosts business wars. You'll hear

trailer, right after this and linked to subscribe on the episode notes, so David you're, the hosted the business world. Tied cast, which war are we talking about right now, will right now we are covering something that well it's another Dallas based story we're talking about American Airlines and its channel. Your south West, it's a terrific terrific story because it brings in all of these personalities, larger than life personalities and we're talking about a couple of companies that I think most people have, at least in one form or another kind of relationship with, maybe sometimes love hate relationship, but it's a fascinating story.

Netflix beat estimates once again adding five million subscribers in the quarter. Ideas rains Nike poaching its top three designers in a battle of the ride. Share services lived, strikes, goober where it hurts everyday. Business is at war, looting. Versus disruptors. Can giants versus chinese competition founders versus corporate raiders, some I'm the prizes, your wallet, Sometimes it's your attention and sometime Well, it's just the fun of beating the other guy corporate Carl icon sets his sites on blockbuster David Brown, former hosted marketplace and I'm hosting a brand new podcast about business like any other business, show you ever listen to we'll go down

into the stories, are the most iconic business wars of all time you verses, Adidas, Netflix, against Blockbuster HBO Mcdonald's versus Burger king, they get real leg, it person, they mean business from wondering This is business wars. I've today on Apple pie, guests or your favorite listening app.