hello and welcome to the five thirty eight politics podcast, I'm gale indirect today were good, talk about what the future looks like for american democracy, in particular we're talking to California, com when Adam chef about what Democrats are doing to protect a democratic system that they say Republicans want to dismantle former president trump? and other Republicans. Attempts to overturn the twenty twenty election are well documented Trump encouraged local law. Makers and elections, officials not to certify results, the the Secretary of State of Georgia to find enough votes to flip the winner of Georgia, trumps employers brought unfounded cases to the courts and Trump asked the Department of Justice to intervene? He ultimately pushed for the vice press.

and Congress to reject the nations electoral votes on January Sixth, which ended in his supporters attacking the capital for years before that, he also told voters that american elections are, fraudulent none. The less american institutions held, but in his new book shift, argues that they almost didn't and that american democracy is still in trouble. His book is called midnight in Washington how we almost law our democracy and still could and he's here with me today to discuss why he believes that the case congressmen shift, represents. California's twenty Eightth congressional district and, as the chair of the House Intelligence Committee, welcomes, the bike asked thinkers greatly with the subtitle of your book is how we almost lost our democracy and still could, and I want to focus on that still could part. What specifically, are you worried about in the few

Well, my parents concern right now is was going on around the country where you have the president, who continues the former president to push out the big lie about the election that it stolen, a rigged and using that big lie in, say, legit Teachers around the nation, a Republican surpassed laws that would strip independent elections, officials of their duties, they're, giving them over partisans in partisan boards Albert Acolytes, Dodge and the whole. I think rays on death row for all of this. Yes, if they lose the election, and they cannot find Brad Reference Burger to locate eleven thousand seven hundred eighty votes that don't exist, they will find someone who else will, so they are disenfranchising people particular people of color to try to ensure if they can win, but We are also setting up to overturn the election if they lose

It's not always by violent means that democracies come to an end. Their married we'll be another attack on the capital, but it would fail just like the last one. Where they may succeed in tearing down democracy, is in eating away at the heart of our election system. I am that's my point. my concern? How close do you think the United, states to not being a democracy today? You know, I think we are still very much a democracy, but a lot of God wills have come down things that we never imagined could happen. This country have happened. It was hard to imagine posts Watergate. Another president states using the Justice Department to protect those who rely to cover up for him, but that's what billboard did? in intervening in Roger Stones case someone convicted of lying the Congress and trying to answer other witnessing the line to Congress. intervene introduces sentence by intervening to make the whole case my Flynn go away the former national.

Heard advisor for Donald Trump July to the FBI. But also using that Justice Department to go after the presence of enemies. I and, of course the the betrayal of that Department of Justice, which is both represent the interests of just this is only one of innumerable examples. The frequent attacks on the press is the enemy of the people. Importantly trying to raise postal rates on Amazon, to punish the Washington Post, using the instruments of state power, the sense of the press, violations of the hatchet before with violations of environments clause I introduced a bill called protecting our democracy act that we hope will take up next month. That light this set of reforms passed after Watergate, is aimed to restore his guard rails, there's a reason why I think in the estimate of of neutral observers, United States, move backward not forward in terms of our democracy and We are still democracy.

but we are also not out of the woods in your nightmare scenario. A lot of the things that you talked about potentially happening. The president and others tried in twenty twenty, but the system help there were guard rails and checks that kept things in place. None of the challenges in this court succeeded the Supreme Court never really even entertain. Challenges to the legitimate results of the election do have reason to think that in the future those checks will not hold. You think that maybe The Supreme Court would overturn an election that the United States military would not be on board with the legitimate results of an election. You know the bad things happened are sick, still held what gives you reason to think it might not hold in the future? Well, because we were fortunate in the last

action in a couple respects. We are fortunate that Joe Biden One and one handily, and we were fortunate- that local and state elections officials did their job and upheld there, their owners of office, but those elect officials are being hounded now out of their posts and replaced with people who would do doubt trumps bidding and where are the legal cases brought, were frivolous and the lawyers representing the former president were worked. Clownish with hair die running down their face. We may not be so fortunate, the next time even that is well. I think that is because again people like Brad Rapids Worker did right thing: what happens if you have some opposition does the wrong thing. What happens if legislature late legislators in Michigan.

Pennsylvania. This time adhere to what Donald once and send a door. Weight of electors. What and if we get to Congress and Electoral College were tied and it comes, to a single state You can imagine that the kind of tumult the country would go through the kind of kind of constitutional crisis we been, so we cannot take much solace in the fact that the system held because it barely held a lecture I mean- painting a somewhat potentially dyer picture of the future. Of course, the obvious question is: what are you going to do about it? Well, I think, in terms of the most direct assault on democracy, there are several things that we can do and have to do. First of all, we have to push back on the big lie: We have pushed back on all those who would undermine the public confidence in our election system for political purposes. If you persuade P,

will that they cannot rely on our elections but their somehow rigged or fraudulent? Then that pays weight of violets. So first we need to. I think I continue to. may clear, establish investigate exposed to the public light exactly what happened with this insurrection. Exactly what happened in in terms of the president, former presidents role and pushing the big lie. So the public record is very what in the public education is very important, we also need to pass H are one and the John was voting rights bill. I so that we can push back against these efforts, the disenfranchise people so that we can end the process of gerrymandering in which a majority of Americans can control the House of Representatives because of the jury matter. And I will say also because that pathways a very difficult one. We cannot, Wait to see whether we succeed in the Congress with that We must always also, I think, embark on a Stacy Abrams like effort in everything in the union to make sure

that we attack every hurdle put in the way of people's right to vote. Really using litigation and where necessary. So I guess, first and foremost the public opinion aspect of this, which is convincing Americans to have faith in american elections. There is not very much that you A democratic someone who is well known on both sides of the Isle can do to convince republican voters that american elections are legitimate if republican leaders are not saying the same thing. So as a Democrat as member of Congress, what do you think you can do and that's understanding that at this point, What language are one is now going to pass. Well, I'm hoping that we can find a way to get your one done, that there is a pathway. I think it will require a lot time. Taiwan's task by the present. Very personally would your mansion, I'm hoping that the effort this week to take up Waste legislation, the Senate, which is expected to fail, is part of it

will that we ve tried everything possible aside from a carve out a filibuster before we move to carve out the filibuster so that the donation can make the case back home that he tried everything else to protect people's right to vote. I am, of course, in American had no hesitation to carve out sacking the Supreme Court out of the filibuster. Unto me the case for an exceptional filibuster for voting rice is a far stronger, easier case to make sure in some sense any real structural changes. happened that you think to fortify our democracy would rely on senators gerrymandering and Cares and cinema agreeing to carve out the filibuster they're taking up the freedom to vote ACT. I believe today, but the freedom to vote ACT addresses a lot of other things beyond some of the most pressing concerns that you mentioned here today addresses things like Jerry Man

and voter registration and so on? If the most pressing concern is an attempt to overturn a legitimate election after it happens? Do you think there is space or some kind of stand alone, bill that tries to streamline the counting and certification says of american elections and leave the other, perhaps more politically controversial things aside. Yet similar factor. I've been working with laughter and Betty Thomson, Jamie Ruskin, I'm gonna, build reform, the electoral counteract wishes frankly, a deeply concerned using and poorly drafted desolation that that still guy today after more than a hundred years, and if we had that kind nightmare scenario that you were asking me came, two, how do we interpret the provisions of the act would be subject to a lot of confusion and ambiguity. So we were

working on reforms that that we think we'll have and hope will have? The support both conservative, legal scholars and constitutional scholars, as well as never once another doesn't mean that it's going to be easy get past, but I think that that both parties should, in the abstract, have an interest in clarity, so that that we know what the process is and should be if it should come down to the wire and the Electoral College, some of the efforts to protect democracy, as you describe them. would require a political norms, for example, something like ending or changing the filibuster. Do you think that, Any norms need to be sacred the process of protecting democracy, or is it ok to kind of sideline some norms to try to protect others One of the things I write about in the book.

you know the realisation, during the impeachment trial in the aftermath of the first impeachment trial, nothing wrong in the draftsman ship of the impeachment clause there's nothing wrong that construction and it still is brilliant as ever. The problem is, if members of Congress Film live up to their arrows if they dont give those provisions and the constitution the meaning? The founders intended if they don't, if they're, not guided by ideas of right and wrong, if they're not informed by the truth, none of it works. I, and so a very real human limitations in how much you can draft your, out of a constitutional crisis. If the people who were in position to apply provisions? Don't do so in good faith, so you know. One of the reasons I am optimistic is that

there are, I think, a vast already of Americans who care passionately about our democracy and that legacy that we have as a country, and are far more devoted to it than those who at the moment want to tear down but I will say that, where the dangerous point, because the Republican Party has abandoned this ideology is not a party of ideas any more. It is a cult of one man, the former president. and as long as that's the case that parties just gonna have to be beaten at the polls when it comes to preserving democracy, If the argument is well, we just can't Republicans when that seems like it's gonna be a bit of a challenge. You know if history is any occasion. Republicans have a very good chance of winning Congress next year and if the specific our current situation are any better, dictator president, by

is currently underwater by seven points with the american public. So I think part of the Democratic Europe plan, for buttressing democracy, probably. has to understand that Republicans are still going to win elections and may well win elections very soon, richer. So at the same time describing a situation where, if that comes true, if, publicans, when elections were on the cusp of becoming an autocracy. So why hasn't reform, in more of an urgent issue for this Congress and this president, well of her soul, Let me take issue with some of the assumptions underlying your question is certainly true that we are a very early divided Congress and Democrats, a very slim majority. But it's so true that that historic trend that you mentioned of the President's in power Our losing seats in the mid term is promised in part on the fact, when the president is elected, they swept into office a lot of them the same party in districts that demographically they

should I want to begin with, and that just didn't happen the presidential election, we lost how seats I view, we have already had the correction convinced that whoever wins the upcoming midterms want went by much whichever parties in power won't be in power by very much so I think is good, a very close election, and I also think that, without Donald Trump on the battle, Our voters are still very heavily motivated, theirs, what less motivated. So I am very hopeful about terms like that: we're just gonna. Let me just say this posed are necessarily agree with that, but the accounting well Europe at upholstery, ever been. Proven all that accurate in Europe down Trump let me just say that if chemically word it becomes speaker, functionally Donald Trump would be. The speaker

Mccarthy has shown, no willingness ability to stand up to the former presence in any way an, and that would be. I think, the first step towards a drum presidency. Another disaster for the country you can draw up, pretty straight line from the former presidents. from accountability in in regards to as Russia misconduct to the very next day after Guatemala testified to the present for us, it was on the phone again seeking out from yet another formation and this I'm Ukraine and when he wasn't held accountable for that misconduct by the Senate ro another straight line between that Ireland is ever to cheat last election and the insurrection, if he were to be did again. Where does it Great line go now to what greater collapse. But then the insurrection will that line point

and I for one, don't want to find out, which is why I think, both in the mid terms and certainly in the next presidential cycle, democracy will beyond about this. So I have to wonder here. You know the talk about tomorrow. ending seems in some sense to be an electoral strategy? Tell people you know this election you know you have to elect. Democrats or democracy could be in peril. But if you, if you truly believe that that link dumb american democracy is potentially on the cusp of ending shoring up that democracy in doing whatever you could to try to buttress it be basically Number one thing on the president's agenda when he comes into office: yes, you know it certainly is the number one agenda as far as I'm concerned present by thanks to their democracy agenda, and I think he's right about this is true for is making. sure that we pass age or one that we pass the voting rights legislation. The also thing said these other major bills are too ass in the nations infrastructure, invest in the nation's people, the bill back better ACT are also

democracy agenda and I agree with him because at the end of the day, if a democracy doesn't deliver it's not going to survive. The reason I think that people voted for trumpet twenty. Sixteen is that millions of people we're working the hardest all over the country, particularly in distress area, with nothing set aside for their retirement. There will have after work till they dropped in the kids if they were enough to get an education were dead job when they got out and he spoke to those people offered a promise that he was gonna, help them and of course he never did, but but the fact that there was that kind of hunger for for help as result of global changes in the economy has propelled this way of xenophobic populism both at home and abroad. So addressing that underlying economic meat is also part of the democracy agenda, but but to me I would agree with you now. It takes priority primacy over passage of the voting

I legislation in nature, one because to me, if the foundation over democracy, that is the right to vote, fails than whatever edifice is on top of that comes crumbling down. Do you think that Americans care about commitment to democracy enough that it will help determine how they vote? I'm counting on and look there's some distressing numbers talking about pulling. The distressing numbers of Americans, particularly on the merits of me, Americans, to sue question, whether democracies the right model. And we're in a competition not just at home, apparently with where the Republican Party is now about democracy versus autocracy, but where that competence, around the globe. China is advocating what it calls its model that can deliver economic prosperity and a lot of water, are they

it's a scene of people climbing on the capital, building and gouging police, as exhibit a that democracy, cabin Jane order and then economy? At the same time now there these model people need to know is totalitarianism, and people can be lulled into thinking that that's somehow an alternative to democracy. It isn't, but around the world. People are question. Whether democracy is the right model. We are, I think, a struggle not just for the hard soul of America, but for the whole soul of people around the world and with huge consequences. There was an economically

which paper done by Matthew, gram and violence folic at Yale. That suggests it's only a tiny, tiny portion of the electorate. Three point: five percent that is willing to vote against a politician whose positions they agree with, because that politician violates democratic norms, and I should say that this is among both the Democrats and Republicans, and a big reason for this is because people increasing, we feel that politics is existential. You know you have to ride politics, an existential term stated if we lose these future elections. Democracy could end so in an environment where, basically, both parties feeling every election is an existential threat to their way of life there of government etc. How you were lowered the temperature, so that partisanship doesn't trump everything, including commitment to democracy. Well, first of all, I would reject the equivalence between the Democratic Party is whether bump parties will then just where the voters are, of course, the lawmakers and

they talk about. Democracy has a very different. You know there has not been done product president in modern history who has behaved the way that Donald Trump House, but you know how voters feel about commitment to democracy as its own thing, well thirdly, but you can ignore the impact of the party leadership in shaping public opinion and in terms of will be able to lower the temperature, how is it going to be possible as long as Donald Trump is the leading voice in the Republican Party As long as it gets up every morning, determined to find new and inventive ways to divide and embitter Americans to each other as long as he believes that politically is advantageous for him. The blame people's economic woes on people that don't look like them a predominant people of color. Is it possible to offer Come that when that's the dominant voice, the Popular Party and their voices amplified

when over again on Fox prime time, news and away, I don't think so, and so what taken. My view is nothing less than the repudiation of Donald Trump and Trump isn't, just. Why is such a terrible tragedy that when republican leadership did flirt with casting, beside after that insurrection, when they saw the terrible and to which he brought the country they had that failure of will that failure courage and that has essentially sentenced America too- ever more years of this. As long as Donald Trump is the presumptive nominee and I believe, will run any will be the nominee we will that not get past this device of time? This, I guess, has a heart because you know if, as these studies suggest, voters are necessarily gonna hold politicians to account for violating democratic norms. You know how do you hold people to account for violating

a product norms or even laws, but he and I think that to part of the challenges we live in such different information worlds. Now the information that the I see is different than my neighbour cease, particularly on social media, but also that the information they need and to see on cable tv at its increasingly difficult for people to talk to each other, I its increasingly difficult a whole people accountable. I am convinced that if Richard Nixon had had for SK time, he would have never been forced to leave office, and so this is, I think, one of the cardinal challenges facing the country, and that is why we need to figure out how to how to survive, as it is democracy in a world in which we get such different information among the most corrosive things. I believe in the last four years. Is this relentless assault on the truth and

and yeah? I mean sure you know, but if voters look at best- and I like ok well, this is what it is. But this is my team and that's my team and we're not gonna hold people to account for no violating democratic norms or telling lies order. What have you we're is the check in all of this Look at the check is only as good as as you and I at the check is only as good as those willing to make the case was willing to put forward the facts for reason, decisions on the basis of those facts. There is no magic button here to push its hard grinding work until we get through this period, You know I consider one of the rays of light is the fact that we are working in a bike There's a way on this select committee that we have to begins or are we willing to adhere to their? oath of office who are willing to tell it straight

this change is a statement. As we house dependent content last night was the most powerful repudiation of dollar trumps. Big lie. And until we get through this period, that's all I do not have to keep we're. Gonna have to keep on pushing out relentlessly the truth, there's just no alternative there's no mechanism that you can point to it. this is a short cut. It's gonna be long and hard work, the other they will get through. I do think that one of the Powers of this, as I was mentioning, though, and one of the reasons I am optimistic- is that there were there was a perfect storm of awful that got us to where we are. There were change in the global economy that but millions of jobs suddenly at risk Changes in information in which lies and fear and anger, travel bow with thy reality. and you at all that up included a pandemic in which conspiracy theories proliferate

an you on top of all that at the Supreme Arsonist have Donald Trump and you get what we ve gotten over the last several years. we underline conditions are not going to last forever and we need to attend those underlying conditions. Even as we attacked the big lie and all the small lies that are the scaffolding of the big guy. You mentioned representatives was Cheney and Adam Kinda guy I'm curious. Who, in the Republican Party, do you trust to uphold America's commitment to democratic government and for contacts depending on which vote it was about. Thirty to forty percent of Republicans in the house voted to certify the electors on January. Sixteen eighty two Ninety per cent of Republicans in the Senate voted to I, the electors, ungenerous text. Do you think those number the ninety percent in the Senate. The thirty to forty percent in the house that those are the Republicans

can rely on in this conflict that you see over the future of democracy. I dont know that we can and those numbers are you. I was very disappointed, for example, to see and distress to see, but Gradually- and I were talking down the significant, Donald Trump effort to use the Justice Department. are to coerce Georgia into withholding its made of electors are sending a separate slate of electors or to use the justice farmer to to sir phony claims of investigations into massive fraud in order. To overturn the election and and You know for someone who is supposed to be an institution list to be downplaying the signal It's about you know is, is deeply problematic But you know I do want to say this and- and I spent a lot of time in the in the book profile republican sore, courageous, our universe.

John Ratcliff, who became the the head intelligence community, was willing to politicize. I am bend, and break the intelligence to to sit down tromp, there was a damn coats performer but consider from Indiana very conservative who was unwilling to Why? For Donald Trump, about Russia or North Korea, animal willing to risk his job and lost his job over it You know those are examples of the damned coaches and and I don't know what the party affiliation of these great foreign service officers, the brie want images and I feel the hills and build tailors and algae? Amendments those folks you're gonna carry us through where there are millions of people? them all over the country, but do you feel as though you have some sort of core constituency in the Republican Party, amongst Republicans in office today, that we agree with you on democratic principles,

sense. Is that a couple of things? First, it up in the country in terms of Republicans at large, I think was Cheney and Adam can singer. Wreck represent a significant number of them, not the majority, but a significant number of them I would like to believe that they represent the future of the Republican Party when it becomes once again. A party conservative ideology. In terms, My colleagues in the House of representatives I one test, will come up next month with e, where we take up the protecting our democracy A lot of the pieces of this bill were republic and lead in the past provisions to expedite the four smoke congressional subpoenas and strengthen protections for inspection. and whistle blowers? A lot of these things have republican Province now. Will they support them?.

or will they will they oppose them because their there, too scared of Donald Trump, definite that choice and you know that might be a good barometer of of where the is that how many can be counted upon, we'll get it will get a even sooner sense of that this week. If we take up, as I expect, the content of Sleep Ban Republic, members of the house will have to decide whether they wish to foreclose their power of oversight, whether they wish to allow people to simply device because they rather not commit an cripple there.

own institution, whether their their fear, the former president, outweighs there their support for our democracy. Your honor January Sixth commission, which is what you're just mention and looking into the violent attack on our capital about twenty percent of Americans, sat across a number of surveys. That violence would be at least a little bit justified if their party did not win the twenty twenty election, and there is almost no difference between Democrats and Republicans. Of course, the capital attack that you're walking out was amongst trumps supporters. How worried are you about future political violence I am deeply worried about. Is the natural consequence of our efforts to cast doubt on the whole elections process? I mean, if you can count on you know the ballot to decide who governs. Then then, you look at other remedies like violence, and so I am deeply concerned about it

and you of the violence was directed at the: U S, capital, it may be directed elsewhere as they capital, Sir and local government, here. We see around the world the dangerous, patients will have british parliament turn another british, proletarian, starved to death and had so? This is a terrible train You know it's hard you'll, be hard pressed to find members of Congress these days that don't get death threats and some like myself all to regulate. and, and yes, so it is very much top of mine. Brightline Watch, which is a group of academics who studied democracy globally and here in the United States, started pulling Americans about their wishes to break up the country based on region and you know this is just an abstract pulling question, but a startling we high number of people responded that day could support. Breaking up. The country mean is frankly that something

but you worry about like amongst lawmakers, when you talk about this kind of stuff, do you talk about worries violent civil war. Breaking up the country like doesn't get that bad. In your mind, certainly has taught me about political violence and being extraordinarily alarmed by the prospect of more political violence. I'm not surprised, frankly by the pulling imagine that an increasing number Americans look with favour on a break up of the union and in that ought to set off alarm bells for us. I think part of what is contributed to. That is the fact that the reaction to this virus has been so different from place to place you need. You need national unity to conquer this violence. If, if we don't get vaccinated, we're never gonna be able

put an end to this virus and we're gonna have to deal with consequences. I am and preventable debts for years and years to come, and I think that is really capture under the amount of anger among those who have actually towards them who were not vaccinated, Anne and exposing. You know that the country to danger in an economic damage that results from it. I think, is one of the drivers of this so alternately final question here: what do you think citizens can do to your buttress democracy? Well, you know, I think that all of us need to figure out what role can play right now and we can all play a role, but they said I mention in the book as we can all be very ivanovitch we can figure out in our own world. What can we do in our civic life on corporate life? Are private life are public life? but its own mother. Democracy really needs us and them

ass, a good ways for people get involved then, and what I suggest a people is don't try to do everything away, paralysis lies, just asylum one thing that you are going to do and that one thing could be getting involved in when those Stacey Abrams efforts or could be you know, just to talk to your neighbor. I tell them yeah the scene over Conversation I had in the book when I arrived in Charlotte and left the airport and was waiting my goober summit, I'm up to me and I want to talk about the rush investigation, and How revealing it was to me because. I was able to serve the shoe any other fight and describe what we knew of the trunk campaigns efforts to get russian help in the election. and civil. What was the Hillary Clinton can't think that have done. That you know the conversation he was like well, that that looks the collusion to me, and sometimes you know you gotta

that one on one conversation to break through two neighbour? Sometimes you need other conversation to break through the members. Your family, but there's something that all this can do, and I am content we're gonna get through this. What we do now will determine how quickly we get through it and how much damage we had to suffer along the way but leave it there. Thank you so much for journey retract. Thank you, congressmen, Adam Shift, is chair of the House Intelligence Committee is new book is called midnight in Washington. How we almost lost our democracy and still could my name is Galen droop Tony child is in the virtual control room. Clear budgetary Curtis is on audio editing. An m o Reilly. Is our interim you'd get in touch my emailing us Ipod, Cassock, five, thirty, eight dot com. You can also, of course We do not with any questions what comments. If your friend of the show leave us a reading or review in the apple pie, cast store or tells him one about us. Thanks for listening and Wilson