So right before lockdown. I touched her doing the party I cast you know from the studio where we just have like ten poppies in the room I mean I would like to hang out with ten puppy is, but ideally like to do, I walk not doing my job. hello and welcome to the five thirty politics podcast, I'm Galen droop. In the way Donald Trump presidency. The idea of the celebrity politician isn't going away. When General says she's in the process of deciding whether to run against gotten Newsome in California, gubernatorial recall, luncheon, this fall math, Canada has teased entering politics and, in a recent poll, leads incumbent, great added in a hypothetical match up for taxes governor, and you can

whether Andrew Yang is a celebrity but there's little question. His high level of name recognition has helped propel him to the head of the pact in the way, for New York City man tonight we're gonna talk about it, appeal of celebrity candidates and what it tells us about our politics world are going to discuss the politics of reparations last week, a democratic proposal. To study, reparations for slavery, and the disenfranchisement of African Americans was voted out of committees. the first time since it was first introduced in nineteen. Eighty, nine, that's up the possibility of a All those of all the members of the House Democrats are increasingly talking about the subject which they once largely avoided, so we'll take a look, Why, and here we need to do that, are senior politics, writer, Perry, Beacon, Junior Highbury is EU or zero. Thus, politics reporter Alex Annuals Alex again and managing editor make a common hamburger Hager one. So, let's begin with celebrity politician,

and we're going to have a broader discussion here, but will kick things off with one of our favorite questions, which is good use, appalling or bad use of Poland. So people say a company that conducts on and again I should say the name of the company is people say that was not the beginning of the sentence of the company p IP ass, a Y, a company that condemns online pause, gauging consumer opinion for brands, asked Americans if wanted to see Matthew, Mokanna, Hay and Dwayne Johnson, the rock run for of taxes and president of the United States respectively. So Mokanna, hey Governor of Texas, the rock president of the United States. They found that fifty eight percent of Amerika, wanted at least one of those two things to happen and that twenty percent of respondents wanted both, like I said we're. Gonna there's a whole lot more, but just kick things off. Is this a good use or bad use of pulling I don't think it was the best use appalling. They essentially lumpy answers to three differ

questions together, which is how we got that fifty percent figure. So I think, according to the twenty one percent of respondents said they wanted the rock to run for president twelve percent wanted Mokanna, hey turn for taxes. Governor in, like you say, twenty nine percent wanted both. So when you add that altogether, that's how they got fifty eight, so I would not give this pole the highest of marks. It is a bizarre way toward the question, like the two things aren't really related and in the way that they are related. Celebrity candidates, then just ask if you are in favour of celebrity candidates, so so I would agree with Alexander that this was kind of a a bizarre crushed in wording. What they did actually ask the question. More broadly, one of the questions was: what is your opinion about Hollywood stars running for political posts, and that was forty five years.

And sat there free to do what they want. Nineteen percent, that anyone can join politics these days, thirteen percent, that they must stick to acting twelve percent. They must stick to political activism, most an eleven percent, not sure so. That's kind of bizarre slate of answers there, but does I give you any better answer to taught you're wondering Mica It's your site are those all the opinions you can have about Hollywood stars running for political, both like that there are all kinds of their very specific reactions, the surface it looks like over. Half of respondents are saying: yes, Hollywood, Sars Chemical politicians. They think, if you add me, ass answer together. Again, you get something like sixty three percent, but really it thirty something percentage. Yes, if they have the right political aptitude and then another percentage said yes if they have very team in place. So if there

I'm thing but not the other way. I mean it's unclear how the answers will change the so a little more than half of respondents to this survey were open to celebrity candidates under the right circumstances. That seems fair to say right yeah. I think so, but we also have actually better pulling on this, so it If we come to the conclusion that this is a garbage pole which do have opinions either way in a car pause, the stir homeward, but some of them somewhat in here and in the way they chose responses seem a little confusing to me is the way I would put it arrived a little confusing Alex. Where did you come down on us back? supplying Eileen toward Galen garbage Paw and very I think that question itself is not a great question. subject about celebrities and politicians is a good subjects, and I think good use of Poland

I think never look at his pole, more they'd ass. If you want to Mr Rehn Run, which one do you want to run and appears a Tom Hanks as we are a robber, Daddy Junior and wheels it is we had a robber Deniro enjoy funding is not very popular in upper Winfrey is very popular. Actually, tells us something I've written about there's a couple times like every twenty. Sixteen I raise the idea of a Tom, Hanks style person running. I do think the idea that there are certain celebrities who have so plus over appeal, maybe to both parties model she'll, etc. I think the rock probably falls in the category of America. Canada is positive, Tom Hanks will smooth and in ITALY. The jolly appeared a score will this survey and I think that instead of useful to think about, is the they're probably a certain kind of celebrity who could win a lot of electoral those? And I think, if someone like tonics, I agree with that, but it appears that they asked about women and men

firstly and this year, it is the ban again. This is not the best way to ask this question. Yes, why did they asked them separately? There's not like a male primary and a female primary and the winners there. That's not how this works. The parties are open to primary reform. At the moment I think maybe you We suggest that a bad use of primary and gave me ok. So let me move on from this people say poor too, perhaps more reliable, at least academic pull that came out over the weekend, and this is a court to a duty, Tyler Dallas morning, news, pole, Matthew, Mokanna, hey, led Texas, Governor Great added in a hypothetical match up forty five percent to thirty three percent. Obviously a lot of undecided there. Now maximum quantity has not announced that he is running for governor of Texas and

He did, he hasn't said really which primary he would run in or whether he would be an independent candidate, etc. So, at this point in time, with the information that we have is that a good use of Poland? So I think yes, the problem, of course being is clear which party you'll be running in so I think that is a big question, but it show me the like, madam it, he probably has fairly high name. I d people have some generically positive use about him and maybe Gregg Abbot is not the most popular person in the world, so I think that tells me so the thing use. Why again? Since we don't know that party met in the country would run in. There is a huge problem in history. who is coming largely from Democrats in this pole, independence as well, Thing is suggested. Is that a crazy? idea for him to think about ready for governor yeah. I must

I agree with that other. I think that it hard to separate from me the fact that they did put him up against abbot in this pole, with the fact that his support is mostly coming from Democrats. In an independence I mean what other Instead, they have, I guess, like Abbot, is the governor, but I do wonder if there was a democratically camping governor and you put Matthew Mckenna up how much republican support would he draw? It just makes it a little complicated to say because, as Perry said, we don't know which party he's pardon somewhere with his support come from as long as he's running against abbot? If that happens, then of course it would probably mostly come from Democrats and women. I fully support would have ass is the people who say they support Mokanna, however, have it just a? Why does like, you make a site. It's not clear what primary economy it would run in, he hasn't been voted in an excess primary, since at least twenty all than has never donated to a Texas or better

campaign? We don't really know much about its politics. That was just the fact that he's a celebrity and has high name ideas that what is drawing people too, as candidates here? Is there more to it you're sure? Let's take this one step further, do you think that Mokanna had could make it through a primary, either republican or Democrats, or actually be a viable candidate as an independent in Texas? To make this more grounded, proposition crowded in reality is a world. It was merely because he could rose dependent to say I'm avowedly, not a Democrat, but he be closer to democratic, use, then added, would obviously and therefore the grass might not run anybody against sims you get the best of both worlds are about candidate with most democratic boats, but he's not a Democrat. Therefore Turning up independence- and maybe some soft republic is even I think, there's a rotten which Macartney could do their duty the democratic primary in Texas? My guess is yes, because I don't know

views are, but I assume he's a Hollywood. Celebrities ease socially liberal, economically, more moderate estimates, politics or Bloomberg is so. I guess you probably could when a democratic primary Alex your based in Texas your sense of his appeal in either parties primary. I don't think Mccartney's here. chance in their public and primary. I think my guy hey leg parry that is probably if I were to gas more, like a moderate Democrat, socially liberal, fiscally Serbia ebbing away, and I think most republican primary voters want someone a little more further right now, which I think abbot. Has that appeals by don't think I really it's a chance and the republican primary on it socratic side if he did run as a Democrat taxes, Democrats have tried just about every type of candidate to hunt for governor and have not had any luck so far. So good hey that type of candidate, they need on their side. That said, I do

Mckenna hey if he ran, would likely run as an independent and I think democratical fields, sort of candidate and mechanically, all likely do better. If you man is an independent, then, whenever Democrat the guardians of yielding because when we talk about independent politicians in general, we save their largely, not successful, because people have underlined partisanship even give they sailor independent. We talked about this on the package last week. so do you have a sense that an independent could actually be successful in taxes or would they fall into the same trap that they fall into in most other states or even a national election? it was a generic independent candidate. Yes, who had probably phones, they seem cups, everyone else, but its Matthew economy and the fact that it he has that high name, I d and money or probably well for him in a way that it hasn't before four previous independent candidates. I also think- Alison Perry our right to identify the kind of electable

The motivations by democratic voters, because one way not to fall into the trap of past independent candidates anywhere is if there is not really a viable democratic candidate. on the ticket. So if you look at our poor majority, Democrats said they wanted a progressive as their candidate. So attacks is democratic, just building their idea, candidate lists the majority I think, would probably to someone to the left of MECCA. why, as Alex said, they ve tried all these different types of candidates had not succeed.

And so maybe they decide, we need to put our sort of ideological preferences aside. I'd go with Mckenna and the democratic ticket or better yet may be from an Elect debility point of view. Basically don't run a Democrat, have Mckenna run on an independent ticket and haven't take on abbot that way, but it would be that would be an elect debility play. I dont think Mokanna is like the best representation in terms of policy preferences up of taxes. Democrats right Alex yeah additives that, especially since its politics are so unclear at this point that he has said that he's came more moderate senses on so maybe there are some political strategists in Texas who would think that way? But do you think the Democratic Party in taxes, democratic, primary voters, democratic parties, more broadly, would be like ok, cool

gotta has running as an independent, we're just gonna kind of like sit this one out and support Mokanna handing isn't there enough of an activist base amongst Texas Democrats that that wouldn't be viable We just want to democratic voters, nephews, the electoral force it and focus on that extensively for a year. So I think, if there was clear reason to think Mokanna. He was pulling well and we had, like fifteen, pulled it also mechanically, leading double Desgas Abbot year. I think the most dimmer that with figured out and ends would be like ok, Grigg Habit is quite conservatives. I think, if there's a path to victory, I think here would there be some activists concern about it sure I mean the question just like Hell parties where The real question is like even IRAN's independent there is inevitably going to be a democratic primary, throw be added. the credit. Now many in the actual mechanism to shut that person support down actually not easy to maintain. This question is ever going to give forty five percent.

The other fifty percent, they have to stop all Democrats from voting for the democratic candidate whose, to be saying democratic things to vote for the act who's gonna, be saying after things, that's going to be challenging yeah you put that better than I put a point. That seems like the main question But what Perry saying, though, the main take away from that is that Joe Biden is the matter. Mokanna, hey of national path, that is to say that's the headline of this pike ass, please Galen. How can we consider was, or was approved, I think a lot of democratic voters are amenable to elect ability, arguments one, and I think, if the formal such democratic party decides. Matthew is our candidate, essentially unless the dim credit nominees super rich. The party can shut down a candidate by just not support in this house in Florida thing it was two thousand and ten were kindred meets was the democratic nominee. He was running into marker Rubio and the party

sort of set down support for him and started supporting Charlie He was the independent, but he had been the floor. Governors Republicans and he was more moderate. Rubio yet we over two percent anyway, but I think that scenario where the parties but have shut kindred meek down. He was a Democrat. Can I think, happened democratic nominees, somebody weak and the petition democratic Indonesia. We like Matthew, Mckenna, interesting so This was all basically a set up to talk about celebrity politicians in America more broadly, and so I want to do that. But first today's podcast is brought you another five, thirty eight podcast hot, take down each Tuesday check out five. Thirty eight sports, podcast hot, take down where the hot takes up the sports world meet the numbers that proved them right or ten down the crew digs into fiery opinions from the week in sports and measures them according to the analytics behind the issue. They end each week,

by diving into a rabbit whole data. From the strangest fifty point games in the NBA to the ever larger gullies of the end H out, don't mess hot takedown available every Tuesday, wherever you find your pot casts, we ve kick them by talking about massive Mokanna Hay and a hypothetical run for Texas Governor. We have no idea whether not that will actually happen. We mentioned some other possible celebrity. candidates, but whether economic on a runs for governor of Texas. There is a real phenomenon, if you call it in american politics where celebrities are drawn to running for political office like former President Trump like Arnold Schwarzenegger. Like our frank in I mean, there's lots of examples of this and right now we are looking at a situation where Caitlin gender is also considering running governor of California and regaining somewhat of a celebrity, is leading the path in the New York City marrow race. You know

Are we in a moment right now where the country has become more amenable to celebrity politicians, or is this the extension of a long running trend? I think redefinition, in uptake and celebrities frame for political office posts from, but obviously like you mention Galen. This is a trend that creates Trumbo justly. It's going to be tenfold going forward. I think we ve gotten the time were so many politicians wondering back themselves into entertainment and pop culture. I mean there is a book written about Obama who, to my knowledge, has never been the Hollywood film, where they called him, Aberdeen chief. So today, among Kennedy, stages, question of where you gonna go on Jimmy, came or even a goin to breakfast club. I think. because so many politicians want to be in the public national sphere, similar to celebrities, I'm thinking it's out of the room, the possibility that we see more celebrities running for office through its? Not just

libraries becoming politicians, but also politicians becoming celebrities. Well, these skills required to excel in politics, have changed over time and become much more similar to the skills required to excel in entertainment, even a few, put aside celebrity candidates. You know people make the jump from Hollywood. Let's say to politics: look at the candidates who have succeeded over the past several decades and their candidates, who had better public speaking skills, their Canada to have more quota charisma on tv. Remember during the two thousand eight campaign, the Journal watch in when oh boy, I was you know. As I said, it was like in some ways this full blown, celebrity and chief in the necessity he dominated popular culture.

the Mccain campaign by tried to use that against him remember they provide wow, yeah he's really magnetic on tv in and a great public Speaker Clinton campaign tried that to you know what will we do any just a found at three m so going all the way back to regain who, of course, did make the jump from Hollywood took part. But even like Eisenhower instead, the two brought in Madison Avenue image. Of ants Nixon in sixty. Did it's just a skill overlap more and more for long I am, I think, they're like then Diagram was politicians who were really interested in politics and policy, but also good at the celebrity staff, so that bright obama- was good at the celebrity stuff, but there was never any doubt that he was

only interested in governance and policy. Reagan to Reagan made the jump from Hollywood the politics, but he had a long history of political activism, etc, etc, now we're getting more to the point. You know, I think we're tromp was really a departure, was just a fake, a celebrity with really interest in governance. You just wanted to be a celebrity in the world, politics and to me that's like depression going forward is not whether celebrities will continue to make the jump into politics. I think Ass Alice said will continue to see that it's what kind of celebrities its celebrities like shortened agar who clear He had a passion for governance, a policy in politics, or is it just celebrities who want to be a celebrity in it in a different route? I don't see this trend really happening, legged. Ninety. Ninety eight Jesse in turn the wrestlers let together Minnesota. If you told me

when he two years later, I think I would say we're gonna- have a lot of celebrities governors. Senators president's I don't actually think we here like. I think I'm struggling to think of like. I think that this the they're from Alabama Tommy to reveal, I think, was the culture one of the below teams there is- and I was gonna celebrity of the senators I'm trying to think of whose a celebrity I think that numbers fairly small of the fifty gum, I think that number is fairly small. Tromp was president's, that's one of the last two residence. I don't think this is happening yet did The liberties are broad spread picking up in politics. I think that's true in a strict sense, but think, ass, the skills required to be a celebrity. Have become more important in politics, but a paramount in politics. I think that seen. Maybe not celebrities take over politics, but the skills required to be a good politician to be

good legislator or good executive become far less important, and I think all of this helps explained why you now have so many members of Congress who don't do any legit in and frankly dont want do any legislation there just there to get on the net The news are to send out the rage, emails to fund raising emails. I guess to me that's the taking over of politics. by celebrity culture more than like. Ok, we have a celebrity in every c in the Senate. I grew for sure I guessed integration out have is: is this going to become different in the two parties? Like my senses bears. The democratic party goes in this more wonky already base direction. I dont totally think Tom Hanks can win the democratic primary in the current demand.

party, because there will be a war in type who is more left and more wonky. There also be like a bite, and title was maybe the same views is Tom, Hanks, butt, head, Morse as I said look alike, media. We can have an engineering and a second, but I wonder if the democratic primary in a sort of great always more, though the party that he's in government and walking ass. They can always great again celebrities near the Republican Party I think could become. Taken over by celebrities. I think you they're getting more away from governing and the problem there Is it most? Liberties are left like at the Hollywood class of rich people was all Republicans and they could have a lot more celebrity centre is being part of. The problem is the most celebrity was going to run in democratic primaries and they're not going to be overly successful there I've seen as noted in some of the academic article was our papers that talk about celebrities and politics, that yes

That's because republicans are more distrustful of the role of government in society. To begin with that, having political experience is in as important for republican voters as it might be, for democratic voters, but it also seem suggested in this idea that celebrities could become more influential in politics and running for office. Is that Politicians in general have become so unpopular and the parties are seen as so unappealing that this is a natural progression because politicians and sounds- are gonna, be somewhat unpopular because politics and seen as corrupt by broad swathes of the american public. The only people who have enough name recognition then to like Garner the support to win an election are celebrities, but they don't have like the baggage or negative associations of politics that actual politicians have It creates a kind of perfect environment where we should expect celebrities to blossom, and

singly play a role in our politics. Doesn't seem like a persuasive argument to people, yes It's kind of skill set argument. Go back to our conversation about Matthew, Mokanna, hey None of us really know where he stands on most issues. Research shows that real advantage and a lot of elections cuz. Nobody can pin you down and do end up being kind of a tabula rasa from most voters. They can just kind of project what they want onto you. You have the advantage of being a quote: unquote out, right? We saw that with Trump, so either there are a lot of built in advantages there. I should say like there's. A version of this where the celebrity a fabrication of politics. Is it like necessarily evil? Like the one pieces of our reading, there was Orson Welles quote that was Ike. I dont think politicians are cracks. I think they are actors, but that kind of acting is not

I am as long as it refers to and reflects an exam. the essential commonly held ideals of a culture. Those performances are part of our culture, even though they are performances- and So I think what he saying like is you know. Politics has always been about performing to one extent or another. I think, with the advent of tv with the advent of the internet, those performance skills have become more and more if those performances are still connected to a set of believes a set of policy positions, set of ideas, then Be this isn't super corrosive and the kind of advantages you were talking about? Galen, maybe don't ruin our democracy. I think what was different with tromp- and this is again where I got back to like what the question is going forward.

That perform. It wasn't genuinely connected to a set of ideals. Really the set of ideals was like grafted onto the performance in real time and afterwards. So that to me, as the question of like will, we seem performances of the heart like artificial performances and surely the question will be only because, like Marjorie, healer green. I feel like she's a politician, but she's become being a celebrity by taking the liberty tactics and is You gonna, be India being big like. I agree that people don't like powders generic since, but if my Jerry Taylor Green ran. The republican primary against Polly with celebrity x. I wonder, if, like she is now a celebrity, but a celebrity for a set of policy issues that is that it Better celebrity bitterly of politics is now about winning the primary, which I would argue in general, is mostly what it is now is it

the bees are having a yo, see a martyr elegance of any who takes sort of more local views and use that to begin, celebrity as opposed to it like I, was a trumpet in a certain way: trump celebrity, who then ran primary bought up celebrity plus right. of use platform in that I visited the killer combination, the problem What kind of hay or Tom Hanks and all these gases were sceptical? They can win primaries right, sort of populars levies and with a human, a primary against these, a more active Aziz, celebrity ized political figure, yeah, that's a question that I had in this is like is it more important to be a celebrity or to be an outsider and run against the establishment, because Marjorie Hale Agleam is positioning herself as an outsider against the establishment. We see the latter. I think it's more important to be seen as an outsider in someone who can shake up the stairs we saw a trumpet his calls to train the swamp throughout his

I didn't see. I think the appeal to voters is the fact that some not a politician, and they bring in this different viewpoint and maybe even different set of skills. I think are the reason why looking forward to future elections, why, I think Tucker Karlsson might be seen as a potential twenty twenty four republican someone who's in cider and maybe has where those more like Fringe Republican is so given that where would you place Andrew Gang in the celebrity not celebrity outside or not outside or whatever hierarchy, I mean, I think, he's a slavery in the same way that we look like the rock iraqi monk hey, but he has been on the nationals asian, he accumulated this very fiercely the following, and I mean if one of the maintenance of your presidential campaign is a universal bees. Can come of Mozart thousand dollars a month, yeah you're going to get the sort of national attention, and the fact that he

and so well as someone who had no governing experience and is doing so well New York right now. I think he's a syllable you probably similar in the Mari retailer Greenaway, but not as radical Gill. I would definitely sign all of the injury angers, not a celebrity he's a politician, with some celebrity skills and celebrity attributes like Marjorie Taylor, but he's not the rock. You know he's not Tom Hanks, but is he a politician? I think absolutely is the answer to that question is like he was in a series of debates over the last year, mostly about another house member, and I would ask members Andrea, was on television in the the semblance of politics. You know in these highly watched? Even so, I think run. the president for a long time being in the debates in most opportune dear, your Yang has been involved in many bills. Passing interview

governing in the same way that a yo see and Mars either green. It is in the most house members, but we in the house have no actual governing power there. Just they go on tv they talk. They means what Adrian was there so in some ways like Andrew Yang is sort of in the same way as the more extreme left extreme right house. Members are he's not governed. Neither have he sort of famous for ideas he's never had a implement before he's kind of a political figure. really he's, not merely blowsy, but he's not there either we sort of closer inevitable as Bonatti there. What you're saying before them maybe celebrity more appealing to Republicans because they don't particularly have the same model. Trust in government or are interested in governance. In the same way, Democrats are Blake, entertain, doesn't have any governing experience. Like you mentioned. He is at this point in time leading the next person in the polls in the New York Democratic primary by double digit,

is there a particular type of celebrity style person that does appealed to Democrats any here a Yale law graduate who was in all these wonky debate, saying walking things about one keenness like don't see him in this is a celebrity, I think, celebrities being someone who is an actor who we don't know what are their political views he has no dated eight governing, I think, is due. but in terms of he's a political figure, sir, for saying political things: These alter wonky debates on my guess is the average New York voters, words, Andrea, hang you ask them Andrew Yang, a smart politician. would say. Yes, my guess is He probably assume he was on some city commission for something I any. They be surprised at how little he's done in terms of voting, because who runs for the day Credit nomination without voting very regulates very surprising until you did you live in surprise. Already is record myself, I sort of assumed he was more power

it's all been. He actually isn't. My guess is the average voter he comes. This very smart in their intellectual. I think dead, probably appeals are Democrats, maybe we need to do some categorizing here, because I don't think we should match her. Perry was down this. Lumping Andrey angle with the rocks of the world. Are the top of the world you can be. A Well known politician, internationally recognised politician. I didn't that right or even at the local level. Now abbot is the governor of Texas, has very high name, I d in Texas. Obviously so you can be a famous politician. You be a famous outsider political candidate. I think that's probably the bucket I would put Yang and other health. Miss is he. The majority of Americans knew who Andrea was in twenty twenty yeah, but take my guess

would be their numbers, have down, I'm just resisting calling envying famous Sullivan let us move beyond, but anyway you so. You can be like that. Well known outside our political figure, Have this long history of politics made you come from the business world? Maybe you come from the corporate world? Maybe you come from whether in my mind those buckets are different than light The celebrity candidate, in the way that tromp was in the way that right, it was in the way we might say rigging is really was the governor you mean before resuming California, because you have risen airport when he became governor of California where the right you know the way that Jesse Venture was just in the sense that, like in that last bucket. there is a set of skills that is really Foreign politics dagger parting from this. pretty world people in those other buckets can have Some of their skills. Regular politicians can have some their skills, but I think it's probably worth differentiating between them

like Galen, if Rachel mad cow ran for Mare of New York City- and I M sure she was in New York City or not, but I would not say that she is a she's a celebrity, but I wouldn't put her in the same category. She's never held me govern office, she's very far, miss, but I will put her more in the person he's in politics but never held office Wade. I would put Andrew Yang and not any sort of actor way. I think there are different advantages that come with being a celebrity that some of these different buckets have like one advantage. politically amorphous another advantage can be super high name recognition. Another advantage could be like charismatic affable people, just like you and so having any of those is a good thing having all of them might be a really good thing, and so, depending on your wife experience, you may have different ones of those would help make you successful is there a place where we can land and all of this in terms of the kinds of candidates that we should expect to be successful going

I think I know these candidates with high name idea, especially Andrea Yang, free choice, vote, system. I am sure that will help him candidates, who aren't afraid you, go on network tv, go indifferent radio stations and to get their names there were they not be something CNN or Fox NEWS or going on again something like the breakfast club, which just seem to be more mainstreaming twenty twenty, so I think as you and I frankly do that and then also the safety of the political outsider seems to appeal to a decent chunk of voters. Those are the things to look for. Ultimately, the thing I'm looking for. If we are going to speak about the proliferation of these sorts of It is do you have a credible them straight id interesting governing, and the issues involved in governing tat to me is really like the Rubicon that we don't want to cross

that often, if your political candidate, I don't think we should care where you came from. If you have demonstrated credible interest in governing its when that doesn't exist, I think where we start to see really worrying signs. for democracy. Just my final thought is Andrew Yang is a graduate of the Columbia University LAW school. Not the year rascals dissimilar some. EL bias there. I am sure, and worrying will very much appreciate that correction would never want to mix up the two, but any rights, let alone- and I want to talk about this reparations bill that passed out of committee in the house for the first time ever, but for Today's podcast is brought to you by the podcast series in plain sight, Ladybird Johnson, this These were tumultuous time in the United States, the Vietnam WAR, the fight for civil rights, the assassination of three prominent leaders through it all there's one woman who had a front row, seat history and left us her experience. Election of audio diaries. That woman.

is Ladybird Johnson. The former lady and wife of President Lyndon be Johnson. Leaderboard Johnson were quartered. Her thoughts, from November nineteen sixty three to the beginning of nineteen sixty nine. It started with if case assassination, spanned the Vietnam WAR and the fight for civil rights. And ended with the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr and Robert Kennedy find out. Hers, side of the story on in plain sight, Ladybird John available now on Apple podcast Spotify and your favorite podcast app. Today's podcast is brought you by the podcast start here. If it feels hard to, with the news every day I have applied cast for you. It's called start here, and it's a daily show from our friends and colleagues at ABC News Start here, gives you a quick straight an understanding of the Daily NEWS, so you can get with your dad everything from the late uncovered to what's happening in Washington and what it means for you start here.

You covered you'll even hear me, nay, and some of your favorite five thirty reporters on start here from time to time clear reporting from b c is most experienced journalists check out start. wherever you listen to your podcast last Today, a house bill that would form a commission to study reparations was voted out of committee on a party line vote with twenty five Democrats, voting guess and seventeen Republicans voting. No a bill addressing reparations has been introduced in every Congress. Since representative John Conyers first proposed the idea in the house in nineteen eighty nine, but this is the first time it's been voted out of committee, citing it up for a possible vote in the full house and, as I mentioned, this bill would create a federal commission to study the effects of slavery and the disenfranchisement of

can Americans and then it would propose forms of rehabilitation or restitution as well. So, as I've said here, reparations is not necessarily a new idea. Why our house Democrats moving on this now. This is the continuation of where we been since black lives matter, really immersion, two dozen thirteen doesnt fourteen. So you seen reparations villages for a long time, but ignored and never really discuss. But now you ve hand in these. five years, and I guess tunnels. What a seminal piece about reparations and was very well read and left you had to be protests around the same time and you ve had this gradual move, left among Democrats, particularly on issues about raised, particularly on issues around that attack african Americans, and I think now is much more a view on the left then it was when Obama was president that black people have suffered from this

nation the reason they have less wealth in income is because largely of Jim Crow slavery currently is I think those views being more accepted theirs. This report is a hard to do- policy wise electoral ie, even term in terms of like Hutu given to an how but the moral case, There has been much stronger in democratic, circles in the protests did. continue that in last year, but I think protests only happened because of amendment twenty two dinosaurs wherein is granted building point where I think a new people, those Yosemite whose very electoral bogus could have shut this down into and thirteen and now you can't really shudder, and the White House has been struggling with this, where they ve been asked about this reparations Commission with bite and said he would support during the primary need already promised this you can tell the White us is very nervous about this gives us a monopoly popular, but they promised they would do. and there's not really easy way to be a Democrat in twenty twenty one to be bite into one always black boats and to really be formerly appeal

who's the reparations? So this why this can move forward yeah, I do think the passage of this was mainly symbolic. Democrats had the vote to passive committee, but its very clear It will not ass the sun it and I'm skeptical the house- I would say yes, if I had to vote on it, but I do think there will be some DARPA too, are in favour of this, but like pay said, I think, there's a broader national conversation happening now, particularly near the Chopin trial, is under way the process last summer. So I think, with all these Racial reckonings happening that someone establishment democratic. It doesn't hurt them all at orally thing to say that there are in favour of at least a commission to look into reparations. Your Alex, you ve done some reporting on the move to enact reparations and Evanston Illinois. Why was that move Why and how did the city come to the decision to try to implement this programme

so there is little different, essentially of incense, said hey. We want to address our past history of red lining, so what they're going to do is give eligible lack rest and up to twenty five thousand dollars for things like mortgage is well, I'm ready nations. Things like that, I totally to address stay discriminatory housing policies in the city. That said there has been a decent amount of pushed back, I'm I haven't heard much from the republican versus democratic site, debate on operations and Evans, and I think there has been some question have ok, why, you just giving their twenty five thousand dollars for housing? Why can't I just be cash payments? By? Can there be like a little bit more flexibility without people spend the money there have been some passion to revise them you're going to banks wise and not just going directly toward the back Americans who are supposed to be recipients of this money. So think. Overall, it was somewhat of a country shall just because, as Paramount

and reparations, isn't something where you have a good chunk of american dream in good time, Democratic way like Super Gung, HO about implementing them We just one city is attempt to address pass wrongs against black Americans in the city. Or so we're seeing. As you mentioned, some efforts on the local level, even if you say just at the international level is largely symbolic. Do we think that this is a buildable and passing the full house? No itinerant think that they will not have to have a vote. does the house can only afford they were very narrow margins. My guess is the member in a swing districts who policies very responsive to will say: hey this a clear path, a Senate anyway. So what's it all about gone whereas investigating whether the lesser gone, so this cannot pass the Senate, even though the commission, our opponents, will attack us for supporting

present themselves in my guess is this does not come to a vote because the House Moderates House democratic moderates don't want to cast the kind of both to be controversial, other repercussions for not picking it up in the house, I mean they're gonna, be criticized by the Black activism leader civil leaders in there, it is. I mean if you're Nancy Policy, yes, if you're Abigails Berger. I don't know the exact and rivers our district, but the moderate house, members representing districts in a fairly white and fairly not black and that's kind of those issues are close in the first place searching for the members know swing districts. No, there's not a lot of discussions firmed up, not voting for this and probably is it me more controversial to vote for it. For the democratic leaders job for bide and they are going to get some questions about. Why didn't you push this forward and they probably inactivity? double saying because of the electoral power but I think we noticed yes, yes, Rep Ray internet right now are not popular. As Harry was just getting at even among them,

I have spoken out. One played think where only about one in three white Democrats supported reparation In other words, it is an issue that right now at least unifies Republicans and sports Democrats to some extent so we're in this moment sprung larger, somewhat more abstract questions. Do like people have advantages that black Americans, don't you ve seen a big optic among Democrats, including white Democrats, or very much weight Democrats who say yes how big a problem is discrimination against black Americans? You ve seen an uptake basically since twenty fourteen and Ferguson White Democrats, you say yes, discrimination against black Americans is topic problem, but then the more specific you'll get at least when it comes to reparations, there's less support among White Democrats,

in the more it's like hey. I have to give something up or hey. This involves me. I think the more you see white people pushed back against that, no matter how much data they're presented with a I think at least politically. There's we're still at a point where white people, including by Democrat, We are not getting on board with that, but reparations right now stop more support than they did ten years ago, right or fifteen years ago twenty years ago. Do you guys think much like those larger, somewhat more abstract questions will see, support for reparations grow or do they not the EU that, as as inevitable at all, could go either way in your. In your view, Anthea either way so because the Eu S Supreme Court is Republican dominated, so I think you are likely to have. Few really the next few years did say. Affirmative action is not legal

we say the problem with how we thereby races we're talking too much, and we should move on from racial based and even those who may not be representing majority opinion in Europe. raising our little normalize. The idea that re selected, is not merely a goal we should pursue in a certain way. We should pursue August, as you have their factor and the EU. Always the prospect that the Democrats, personally worried that appealing to black people Hurstwood like exert so if they lose the mid terms in twenty two needs. You are twenty twenty four and You can imagine a world where there are back. Let's talk about raises controversies. There's the perpetual Democratic Party did things it s one week he could go either way is the one thing about Evanston, vine and one about ninety percent of the vote in the Edison area. I think Asheville no cure There's another city was sitting not reparations. Like policies, it's also a pretty white but very liberal city jurist here university, has done a reparations programme. The episcopal charge has done a reparations programme. I do think there's a

here. A little cities in decisions that are pretty small and are pretty white, but the white people, here, have a fair amount of income and are pretty liberal and I can imagine like if you picked out the small tat. I get Cambridge Massachusetts, I'm guessing. If you get me a map of the. What are these small towns in America that are very, liberal and a pretty upper income and work. There's not a lot of racial strife in part is there aren't a ton of black people in these places, you can imagine a lot of reparations to our programmes. In those places and death The momentum, I think, will be added leader to figure out what are the equivalent to Asheville whenever the maybe elite college towns is rather go next, I think you can see movements like that, but do I think states are going to do it. Or the federal government. There's gonna be much harder right now, but again, I think the moral case Police shootings and how the police tree black about the moral case is getting

stronger, and so I think, there's going to be hard to ignore. I think we're probability of these economic and on Evanston, like proposals and other interested parties. I dont think its waiting attraction at the federal level. I think right now. The same position for Democrats is to say that their, in support of this commission, because I think saying that, vice and time to figure out what they are actually in favour of and eyed? And I am it's a lot of democrats safer, like Marian Williamson, twenty nineteen saying that they are in favour of direct cash payments or outlining what specific pop preparations bees policies there in favour of so I think right now, since it's not a major break issue and a primary or general action if democratic, go along that safe Margaret Route of I'm ok with this commission by then figured out later, I think that's kind of the position it's going to take until the general public put more pressure on law makers. To actually do one thing,

yeah. I guess one thing that I was thinking about him in meeting about this. Is the fight over same sex marriage and at least according to some people who were fighting for the legalization of same sex, marriage, one crucial innovation in messaging that occurred there was making the push for same sex, marriage about love and not about the constitution. Or fairness- and I was thinking about that because in reading the arguments against reparations its- A lot of stuff like this happened, hundreds and hundreds, years ago- and you know I Didn'T- do anything wrong and it's a lot is sort of like empty stuff like that one thing this commission would do in addition to making recommendations about reparations is study the

the lasting effects of slavery and lasting effects of ongoing systemic racism, so point as I do. I do wonder little bit as conversation in the general public much hers and becomes more about the affair, here and now. I do wonder if that changes the conversation in favour of reparations for some white voters, I think if I ever did I would say, reparations getting. Support will go up among Democrats when I think I d seen that I the poles. I suggest it already is close to fifty. Fifty among Democrats abandon their dignity and five years working seventy seventy five in the dim radicalism gives me why people are moving delay. Five years of news coverage. It has always been the reparations report, we every day, you give the New York Times the posts. What we do like races is- is real

colleagues show people who are black or dying in law. Higher rates we can explain as except to say, is probably this democratic dead. Among Democrats, I think gonna grow into question might be. Does I'm using get even harder among them is harder to get, but is it get much harder on? The right is, it me was. Is we're like Seventy five percent democrats are for it. Ninety seven percent of Republicans argues that in that means, nothing can pass, but it still sort of like it comes like gun control luggage was probably with Robin. Voters are not positive, but I do think you're gonna see overall net gain popularity. I think that's really smart and the numbers for Republicans probably can't shit that much cause are almost universally opposed to reparations, but if support for abrasions among Democrats grows you should have really easily imagine reparations becoming more.

It's more of a motivating like the issue for Republicans, but like the Paris point, I was looking at Pew polling just from twenty sixteen twenty twenty. If you look at Clinton, murders compared to abide in others, the share who say that white people benefit a great deal from advantages in society that black people do not have jumped from forty to fifty nine percent. That's Clinton, voters to bite and others over talking demo. Support is here the share. We said it is a lot more difficult to be a black person in this country than it is to be a white person jump from fifty seven to seventy four percent. Again Clinton. Voters to bite and voters said to me: it's not a long jump from there to like. Oh, yes, we have to do something about this, but again that's just among Democrats and that inherently the lack of movement among Republicans, odyssey gloom

how much movement there can be overall integration may be. I think cash payments is gonna, be really hard. I think housing support. If you lived in an area that red line. You get this amount of money. If you Lived in the Jim Crow south. You get this money, you're sixties. I think cash paint for forty million people operating what we say. I will not take it Michael Journey to say: I'm you know you can imagine all right. I think they cast payments. Every black person who we know very native, born person is gonna, be challenging. I think more specific things, maybe three challenging HSBC use. If you make this amount of income, I think corporate like that. Maybe bonds and the campaign, and they will be targeted at people with lower income, they would go to some white people do but it'll be income. I think broader porter for income inequality winder helping black you're more than white you'll, be may actually hit some. Why people too and therefore be I think, cast-

miss you only black people, as beware ones, taking up this, but I'm guessing will not actually be the final proposal. That's actually already the bite and administrations approach in some ways, for example, this american rescue plan its rays blind in large part. However, they ve talked about the policies in such a way that they say will. These will disproportionately advantage blacker, latino, communities and the plurality of the recipients of certain amounts of money like the largest amount of money that you get etc. Would still be. Why? Obviously, just because some anymore, why people in the country that the plurality of poor people in America are white but they're talking about it in such a way that, like this addresses these issues that they think to address, maybe more specifically, would be so politically unpalatable. You talk here a little bit about. the salient issue going up or going down etc. Do we think this is an issue that increasingly is salient for voters writ large, for example,

same sex marriage became more and more salient until it reached a tipping point and then talk about it anymore, because it's not as controversial or there's things like gun, control that go up and down and up and down with the new cycle, and at least so far haven't reached a tipping point of resolving mean. How does this political conversation move forward? I think simpler preparations bull, probably in the next five years, or so. I think right now and will be added. It's not really that big oven you and the Democratic Party. I don't think a Democrat running for President feels like they have to run on their proposal for operations in word, when voters per se but maybe that will change in five or ten years. I don't think it's like gun control. What we're going to see it! I've been flow. I think, over time, there's going to be more support for reparations and reparations based policies yeah. I think that right and I think

even if this ends up just being symbolic. The fact that binding who, as we ve talked about on this pod cast, is in some ways like the perfect proxy for, like the mainstream centre of the Democratic Party, as that moved over time. The fact that binding tell tee pad to support this commission during the campaign and and has followed through on a sort of is telling and if support on the left for reparation, keeps increasing, and if we see more efforts by elected Democrats to push policies, whether

their cash payments or or sort of more in direct policies like the ones Perry was describing. I really have to imagine that the salient on the right would increase alive. I mean they're, just such a history of any policy, to put it bluntly, aimed at helping black people. There is a significant backlash among white voters. That's like what Brinkley one I'd like the iron clad rules of american politics. So so I guess I do think the salient will increase over time. And I agree with Alex that if support increases over time on the left- and I think salient will also- I think the sailors are actually is really high right now and write like when you think about how many people want to ban critical race theory. Are the sixteen nineteen project you read the critical race theory, we can debate over the means, if you really-

nineteen project. You are left with the inclusion that black people been treated terribly systemically and theirs They have lower wealth in income. If you re those things seriously. It's really hard to debate, reparations even debate them logistics are reservations, but it's hard to say represents robbers. Stupid was read those things so when the right is already very aware that the reparations movement is gaining some salience string, they're trying to down the ways in which that seals, having which is this sort of a team, on racism and racial equality like in some way The regulations governing is already happening levies it by. is doing a lot of policies did read like someone who believes Reparation should happen, but can actually propose them. So we do these many reparations and all my little bills, but I did not and I've never aberration, that is for these things. You know, help langmore and make up for pass your relations? I think politics

right now. The chief divide, in a certain way, is how bad you thing: black people to discriminate against, and what policies and hell aggressive policies to use. Report to change those, which is that you know I will think George four. It should not be shared by the police, but how aggressively You want to change policing to make up for the sort of a democratic republic, I'm not. Some will have also way centres democratic versus more liberal Democrat divide, so I think we are really having a reparations debate in public. Commission's only a small part of they were really discussing. How do we tree black people? every reciting or at work. Let's leave things there. As we mentioned, we will watch whether or not this Patients go, gets taken up for a vote in the full house and will see how the conversation place our point forward, but for now thank you Alex maker and parents Thanksgiving. Thank you, my name.

Gale Andrew Tony Chow. Isn't a virtual control room, clear Bulgaria, criticism, audio editing union touch, my emailing us at Pied classified thirty eight dot com. You can also, of course, treated us with any questions or comments. If Europe of the show. Leave us a reading or review in the apple pie, tat store or tell someone about us thanks for listening and what Her.