Welcome to an emergency fivethirtyeight politics podcast, my name is Jody Avirgan good morning, Senator Al Franken was accused of sexual misconduct by this is, of course, part of a broader wave of accusations of sexual harassment and assault in lots of different fields, media and Payment and more and more in the world of politics. So here to discuss it. Some of the political implications, some of the larger societal implications, are our usual croup editor in chief mate, so for a little Nate allow Jody Politics supported, claim alone, hello, Claire and Wiz kid Harry, Enten, hello, hello, hello! This morning a radio newscaster Leeann Tweeden published a piece in which she described Frank and kissing and groping her without her consent during the Uso tour in the Middle EAST. In two thousand and six, a few things have happen

since then, and I'll say that we're recording this at around three hundred pm on Thursday. So you know we're. This is what we know right now: Frank and issued two statements on an initial one. There very short saying he didn't remember thing was the same way and then a longer one that was more apologetic and in that he said that he would welcome a ethics investigation which looks like it will now be opened clear. Let's start with maybe some of the broader context that I mentioned about kind of what's

in lots of different fields. How do you see these accusations fitting into the sort of this larger moment? Well, there've been allegations against mostly men, but well, actually, all men pretty much by men and women of sexual assault, and it's it's mostly been in of a select few industries, media entertainment and now it's sort of making its way into politics with a couple of stories this week that didn't name members of Congress but said sexual harassment is certainly rampant in both houses of Congress, just as in many other areas of of life. This is the first time that you know that we've had someone's name really been named in a polite from up from a sitting

medical figure, sense of things, obviously their stuff going on with Roy Moore down in Alabama. So you know this is just a say: I'm I'm sick of talking about. Like a you know, I'm sick of this, you know sick is the wrong word. Don't don't misconstrue that listeners, but it is, you know, there's always stuff happening in the world and and it's sad that this is the stuff that keeps coming up over and over again I mean you know, that's yes, just a thing that happens in that we have to talk about, but yeah it's and it's annoying for women to talk about it because you know it's, there are other things that are needs. You know Roy Moore now this other stories coming out throughout this week. Was it inevitable that this sort of big conversation was going to come to the world of politics in? There would be a reckoning in this in this world yeah, because a lot of men are creeps and let up

positions are creeps, and so, when you overlap those two, there gotta be dozens. If there are four hundred and thirty five, how many centers are there? For thirty five members of the house, one hundred senators, five hundred and thirty five there have to be dozens. What did you make of Franklin's response today, either his first one or his second long gone? I thought the first one was really lame and the second was pretty lame. The first one was the senator has not consulted with his communication stuff, that's my interpret He basically said. I remember this different way. Kind of, like I'm sorry and did anyone kind of style. I don't think he that one was a really odd response, because I I almost wondered if he had really understood the gravity of what he was being accused. It was a little weird because you would think that he would have been tipped off, ideally by the so it was a woman and it was report on. I guess not her blog. It's like going to a big like a local, ABC affiliate. You would think they would have reached out to him for a comment. To only say this isn't totally off is a.

But he seemed like fairly unprepared caught off guard and then I don't know some people are saying that when Mitch Mcconnell Said- what kind of have an ethics investigation at that kind of gave him a lifeline? And he said I'm sure I support an ethics investigation against myself, which makes no freaking sense because, like where do you to getting in that investigation. Are you saying that this was the only incident so therefore have an investigation and prove that, like what are you saying, he's admitting more or less to I mean there's a photo to groping this woman or touching her breast when she was sleep, and he said in his initial statement- he said as to the photo- it was clearly intended to be funny, but wasn't I shouldn't have done it and we're going to have an ethics investigation about whether it was a bad joke or not. Or I mean I don't Stan what that is, except, like a gave, Democrats and Frank in and out to Salus

very serious will have I mean it could be very serious right I mean. Certainly there are other cases that come to light and usually are especially given how kind of cavalier he was. They thought it was. I guess you would say I thought it was a joke and she would say this meant to intimidate me and humiliate me, but the fact that he was quite cavalier I mean the photographer apparently was his brother. I mean this is the kind of behavior that probably has been repeated quite a few times. I would just say that this is the beginning of what's going to be occuring in the political circles. Obviously we know that there have been people who have been elected president, both Democrats and Republicans who have implicated with sexual misconduct, sexual harassment, sexual assault, and so we are going to see. I believe many senators and many house members who are going to be implicated the different levels of degrees, but it's very clear that we have a problem in this

country, and I would argue worldwide and one that's been put under the blanket far too long, and now it's going to be exposed. So does it feel like standing on the edge of a really big reckoning with this? fix investigation, be you know, first step towards like a clear eyed look at this, or will it be a Our regular at a rally Franken in this or any other home societally or with the with no in in in politics in particular. You know reckoning for awful man in in the world of politics, which is an important reckoning, and then we can do reckoning is in other fields as well, but but does it feel like this is going to be dominant storyline for awhile sex and politics have always been very intertwined. I think what is changing the power differential

that I think people are less and less going to call women either explicitly or implicitly sluts who don't know what they're talking about or who are making specious claims an. If that's a change in power dynamics, then yeah, that's it. The people will reckon With- and I think, there's this sort of weird culture that amasses in DC, where people there's a lot of young people around there's a lot of older men who are away from home and people just feel like they have the run of the house literally, and I hope that that stuff changes, but I really do think that the big thing is people no longer just dismiss women who are accusing people as well she's a and she doesn't know what she's just saying this to get this to you know to pull rank or she's that kind of that kind of woman to me, that's that's. What's really change is that there's all they're always been these things that are happening, but it's

people are more often than than not we're likely to brush a woman off and now it seems less and less likely. Looking me very quickly, no, I I'm I'm, I I'm I'm taking it all in because I'm I'm I'm, I guess I'm you know we're commenting. I think a lot of us are also learning, and so that's I think why I was looking at you. Physically. Do we see this, I want to get it to a little bit of some of the politics of what comes next, but along those lines, click. Do you see this book conversation that hopefully will happen being politicized right I mean Roy Moore is on the right, I think, is on the left Bill Clinton's on the left. There's been plenty of other people on the right. Who can you know accused of the stuff I mean? Is it but are? Are we going to see this sort of hyper partisanship come to s or is there any chance that we just have a conversation with men argue whether they're on the land it right in the future? Might people treat sexual harassment allegations in a partisan way? I I can't question. You know I mean there's no example of that happening. So far is there well? is there I mean so far Hardison

You know willfully naive question. I understand, but never the less. You know if, if you take a sample size of the last week, we have a prominent story of a Republican, a promise story of a Democrat, and potentially we have the opportunity to point out and say this is happening on both sides. This is not about party affiliation yeah. I was there any chance that message breaks through or well. Look I mean of different groups. First of all, I should say I think that the more accusations are a lot more serious because they

involved under age victims and because their gas bill accusers, okay and like it's not like when a little bit worse, I mean once a lot worse, although also more has kind of not admitted to this, where, as frank and kind of has so important differences, not just differences around the margin. I thought that kind of initial reaction like on twitter when the news broke in from like democratic commenters, began being much quicker to denounce Frank and then then certain analogous Republicans had been to denounce more but and it kind of evolved, and I thought the response from democratic members of Congress was like. Oh, this is really really inexcusable terrible horrible stuff, and we will talk about in a committee meeting. You know I mean that is hypocritical, but I think because it is about politics and not just parsed, plus also also like into

politics, where the thing about Roy Moore, where, like the republican establishment, has evolved to say he should not be standing. This election, if he is elected, may be be expelled. They don't want to deal with Roy Moore anyway, whereas Democrats, you know AL franken- is a kind of conventional I'm in a bad way, but like a conventional kind of liberal politician who very much in line with the kind of party bases, values and someone who is a safe vote for Chuck Schumer someone who raise a lot of money for himself and for other Democrats so there's a certain amount

of narrow kind of self interested ness that I saw the response is not from democratic activists, are kind of liberal activists or even from the media. Necessarily, I think, like Huffington Post, had a big splash about the story in a way that, like maybe Breitbart, again always nice, to make analogies there, but the way that bright part might be different from covering the more allegations is not not deny all of it per se. But it didn't take that long for Democrats to begin thinking expediency. Why is right like it wouldn't be an expedient for you know which, by the way, I also think the arm probably dumb about the politics of this too, from just setting aside

like electoral politics, which certainly our bread and butter and something we should talk about. But will this address be addressed in a way by, but by both sides to use that loaded phrase? These days, I'm sure they'll be something where the house, someone from the house side, some of the Senate side says we really need to ramp up our sexual harassment, training, blah blah blah and they'll they'll. Do the on paper work, but fundamentally, people need to remember. The politics is very small, see conservative on both sides, and that means risk averse in lots of things, but particularly in maybe actually having honest conversations about things that lead to sexual sexual harassment and there it's really complicated the way we view people through a political prism. One of my pet peeves is the way we talk about women, politicians, you know it's not just in the you know. She talks this way or she doesn't talk this way. Let's look about how we talked about Sarah Palin. She was either a sexy soccer mom, who you wanted to vote for,

or she was pretty but dumb or she talked like an idiot. I mean everyone said that Donald Trump has similar problems with strings, and this together people have certainly called smoke shop dumb, but it wasn't the focal point of how they talked about him. Let's talk about the way Al Franken avowed liberal was viewing that woman on the. U S tour, I actually don't know her political leanings, I'm sure they're out there, somewhere in the in the public now, but well, you know, all you have to do is look back to the creation of the women's Rights movement out of the civil rights movement and liberal student groups in this in the sixties and seventies, which is by the way how Franken's era of liberal, there's terrible. You know sexual division in those in those liberal movements and by the way, once the women's movement started, it wasn't put the you know the kids now refer to as intersectional. It was largely you know they were. There were some really important black women leader,

but they mostly got sidelined in the public eye, because Gloria Steinem was more attractive and white face for the american public anyway. This is a long rant that I have, but fundamentally politics is a very risk averse system. The people operate. Within and the ways that we change the white, how people approach women in public life or just private life. I mean not to talk about patriarchal structures, but there's lots of stuff that you might not realize in your life is very patriarchal. Let's take a normal convention in heterosexual courtship, a man goes and asks a woman's father or a woman's parents if they get. If you can ask her to marry him last time I checked my. I don't live with my mom and dad, but people still do those things right. That's a patriarchal structure. You can you can. Actually you know people are saying well. Roy Moore was asking it was part of the evangelical structure.

You know I always asked a girl her mother's permission. Before I dated her. He was obviously dating very young girls, but listen people? This is not that far out of the american mainstream, where we still think of women. Thirty year old women fourteen year old women, whatever as someone elses thing, you know so, let's, let's, let's be pretty honest about these- are deeper conversations. An like the House and Senate is ramping up their sexual harassment, training, ok, Well, you know, like that's, not that's not going to change the way these members when they have young women in their office. You know what young female staffers, whether or not the you know are they gonna now change their behavior be like well. I can't can't spend too much time with her and therefore that one's denied mentorship and it's really complicated so anyway. I thank you. For that I mean. Will it mean then we'll we'll one element of change be that we will see more women running for office

all women, a letter to all I think so I I think that we've already seen any number of ends and says you know this year where women have said hey. You know Trump, because I viewed him as X, Y and Z, No I'm now running or there was that example down. I believe in New Jersey, where I do Jersey politician posted something on his facebook page that a woman thought was crass, and so she decided that she was going to run for office. I think that it will spur that, but I think the key in all of this and why I think that there were so many who were if not offended, disappointed that this will go to a committee is that bureaucracy is often where things go to die and if we truly as a society, want to ensure that this type of conduct does not allow them. We have to keep the momentum going. When I make sure that this type of stuff stays in the public eye, so that people don't forget and just don't put on the back burner yeah. I know again, I'm I'm looking at the Craddick we

in today and I think if the reaction had been stronger than it would have done more to encourage more women to come out yeah. I mean we're taping at three thirty, how many Democrats six senators of sir, if I could ten- I don't know- I mean I'm attracted to involve them, given the initial reaction. Does it feel? Like Democrats, I think you were getting at this little earlier made, but does it feel like democratic? I need to find a way to keep Franken around or or will it lead to resignation an open seat in in the Senate? I mean so we I'd say that if you were to have resignation, then you have a replacement appointed by the democratic governor of Minnesota, which would presumably be a Democrat. You then have a special election in twenty eighteen for the last two years of his term, Minnesota is actually more of a purple state than people realize, but lieutenant at least it's going.

He probably a very blue environment in twenty eighteen, and you have a very, very deep bench of democratic candidates in Minnesota. A lot of my running for governor, because Dayton is resigning, but some of them might get out of the governor's race. They have the opportunity to run for Senate You have several major women officeholders in Minnesota. I think the attorney general is. I did look at all the names right I and that the state auditor might be someone honor. So two or three women do you have the mayors of Minneapolis and Saint Paul, which is better, is apple. I'm just saying: oh yeah, I know I heat Ellison, I'm saying you have like a lot of Democrats in Minnesota, who would presume to love to become a Saturday and so and they probably keep that seat through twenty twenty anyway, and so it's kind of like if there be like purely electorally expedient,

Then they might say yeah, let's put him out of here, because running a Democrat anyway in avoid and wash your hands of these problems, but it's almost like they're protecting because he is currently a member of the Senate right and he is their colleague and their friend friend. I don't know if they out to dinner together right, but it's kind of like you're, protecting the herd and also that you know what what happens if you're kicking out Franken now. Well, some of that man and maybe a couple we probably most of them

who vote to expel Al Franken or not, probably also have committed acts of sexual cover. This is cover your territory is what we're converging into one thing I think, is really tricky for Democrats. Right now is that this Al Franken thing is coming up right against the Roy Moore Stuff and neat they'd already said this: they are very different degrees of this, but that is not how it will be covered in certain media, which is you know, it is purposeful, simplistic thinking by people, but that is useful from the partisan back. If things and so in some ways, Democrats might feel pressured by their base pressure. You know I don't I don't know how much democratic lawmakers are influenced by. Let's say politics, twitter or the media. Talking heads that go on tv, but very quickly. It is being spun into Democrats need to make sure that they're keeping keeping their noses clean and it keeps pushing right up against the Roy Moore'S-

makes it all the more complicated yeah you will. You will see a lot of who are you to act? You know cast aspersions right. Were you to bring up the more allegations you absolutely she right from right and center- and you know yeah, but I would I mean, but to go back to. I would guarantee that any many members of the Senate are now looking back in their mind and thinking I had whose acid I grabbed a whatever you know like people yeah, it's it it's it's like grab ask eight and and that's what people want to that's what the senators are really thinking about right now, absolutely I you know knowing the people who are of certain ages at certain times it was seen even if it it was seen- and I don't wanna say socially acceptable, but

things that now, when we definitely construing, perhaps should always have been construed as sexual assault. Where then thought of all it's a you know, it's it's it's a joke or it's a funny. It's you know the old story my mother would tell. Was you know that that that the guys by and you in your classes, you know they'd snap, your bra, and that was you know seeing it. You know if you know that was normal, behavior or or game called mushy tushy pushy where they grab the behind and then they laugh. I and you know yeah it's a funny name, but I I I I am I'm just getting to the point that we're gonna have a lot of discussions. I think about this over the weeks and months to come all the by the way to the credit of the Alabama mall cops, who bandra more from the mall. Supposedly people knew him. People always know. No one teaches you in a class like well. You should snap that girls bra or like mush, that to like no

well, I don't have it yeah. I don't yeah it's that the is that the definition of what's an appropriate changes, just people's appetite for yeah yeah. I think that's it exactly and by the way listeners spare me the angry tweets about me call it crap basket. I obviously take this stuff seriously, but like what we're, What we're referring to is not very serious allegations of assault. You know like rape and things like that. It's these members. What we're transcribe is how they're thinking through they're probably inappropriate behavior over the over the past years, so I think we're going to end it there. But I think to your point, Claire, like a lot of members of Congress, are thinking this through and it's happening a lot of different fields, which is really amazing. When you see it just kind of systematically happening in the media world, in Hollywood I mean I'm all for it. I think we should go over the industry by industry world by world, but it is remarkable that it's kind of seems to just mostly white collar industries. Yes, yes, true and we'll see, we'll see how big conversation gets. But look. This is an ongoing conversation. It's something we're going to continue to watch we're going to obviously talk about

Monday, all sorts of ripple effects, but we felt like more inventions, have a quick emergency podcast around this breaking news, so the team think he was always meets over. Thank you, Claire Malone, thanks John and thank you and thank you. My name is Jody Avirgan thanks. Galen Druke and thanks to you for listening, will be back on Monday with our regular show.