Does anyone have anything funny to share from their memorial day weekend? I fell asleep by the pool and got sunburned enjoying a wonderful day in the park and someone threw up next. For like a long time hello, and welcome to the five hundred and thirty eight politics podcast on Galen Druke. Thank you to Micah for filling in for me last week. You miss me, hide I missed you terribly cuz, I didn't post it. And I also hope that everyone had a good memorial day- we've got plenty of today. First off a recent poll showed that in head to head matchups former Vice President Joe Biden would beat each of his high profile democratic

most that's been used to suggest that there may not be a consensus anti by didn't candidate, but is that a good use of polling we'll get into that? Also, last week, House speaker, Nancy Pelosi, amped up criticism of President Trump as she tamped down calls for impeachment from within her own caucus. According to reports, it's. Part of a larger strategy on her part, which we're also going to get into in here with me to do all of that. Our editor in chief Nate Silver, how's it going It's going well, you know, we've already been talking for like ten minutes, so I feel like feels warm warmed up yeah ten minutes content listeners will never hear of that's for the better, also with weather in senior politics, writer, climb alone, how's it going it's good, hey and managing editor MIKE account. How are you very good, also today's podcast. If the Democratic National Committee announced some new rules for how the first democratic primary debates will be structured, that's debates, plural, because of course, there are too many candidates to have just one debate.

We're going to layout what those new rules mean for the candidates. But of course, let's begin with good use of polling or bad use of pulling zero. Here's what happened last republican polling, firm Echelon insights released a poll in which they pitted Biden against Sanders Harris, but a judge and Warren in hypothetical head to head match The results, showed Biden leading all of those candidates by big margins, so Sanders did the best against biting, but he was still trailing him by thirty six points. For the rest, Biden's margin was in the 40s, and essentially this gets at what might happen to Biden's front runner position once the field windows more and as a VOX, headline read quote a new poll suggests there might not be an anti bite in vote to consolidate all right so before we get into how exactly this poll is being interpreted. Nate is the underlying poll that we're looking at a

on the pole. Sure it's a guy who's, a mostly republican consultant. I mean they haven't done a ton of horse race polling, but there would be no real reason to critique that. So then, is the interpretation that this new poll suggests that there might not be an anti bite and vote to consolidate. Is that a good use of this poll is that what this says? Yes, next segment biting is really popular. I think that like, except for certain segments of democratic twitter or the left, whatever. However, mergers you have between those only around fifteen percent of Democrats have a negative view of bite, and so so there like an Anti Biden, vote irsay or at least not that much of one I don't know I was a little surprised by how well he held up in these one on one matchups, but it kind of goes to show that, like it's, not just this kind of so in twenty sixteen, Trump had a thing where. Actually, there were a lot of Republicans who disliked him at various stages of the primary, Well, there are, you would say: well, Trump might be leaving the field, but

in a one on one between Trump and our hero Marco Rubio of Florida Rubio would come close to Trump or TED Cruz will come close to Trump in a head on head match up. You know this suggests Hayden is more formidable than that, although of course one. So I know how you how that right under this right, but it does mean that, like you, would be sub button is an even better position than Trump would have been at this point Yeah, I mean I'll put it like this Biden's. Lead is not just a reflection of the divided field, and in some ways the fact that Biden has thirty, five or whatever percent when you have so many to tell you that in the first place, whereas Trump at this point had you know- this point is when he wasn't running yet, but Trump after initial had twenty twenty five percent Biden is better than that in his numbers hold up better when other candidates drop out and so

it's like a very bearish bullet point for the other democratic candidates. Well, as you mentioned right at this point in two thousand, sixteen Trump hadn't even entered the race yet, which suggests that we are a far way out from voting eight months about also different candidates have different levels of name recognition. So is this kind of head to head polling this far out? Also, of course, the primary isn't an actual head to head matchup? Is it meaningful? I guess I'll be I can record and say, is pretty early. There have been debates, Joe Biden is still pretty new to the race. He also hasn't had that many he's been on the view he's had some some some national media stuff, but he hasn't been doing tons tons of, like you know, I'm out there, I'm in front of all the cameras. Constantly he's sort of you know do like an early stages, I'm doing fund raising events. I don't do events every day, you know

schedule isn't always in Iowa or New Hampshire or South Carolina to me it's it's kind of like this. Is this for interesting poll. I think it's you all to have had to had pulling like this early on. You know it if only because we can, over the next over the following months, see changes, but it's also yeah, that's that's more where I am where I am, I'm not really sure what how much to make of this one is like all right so by It goes from in the polls, like everybody has what its like upper 30s percent to like the low 60s. Mid sixties in one on one match up so he's gaining. You know twenty or so percentage points of support. Believes about anywhere from one slash three to forty percent of the party not saying by then so, I'm not sure that's an in Biden Block, but that's a big share of the of the party but he's not actional candidate,

Trump wasn't again What is a federal candidate? Well, I mean Trump represent a kind of I don't know why you want to describe it probably couple different factions. Actually, partly and in the tea party faction, part of like a anti self impaction. Partly frankly it enough back again- and you know, those were his biting is someone who has a lot of cross party appeal except some highly informed voters in the left and their constituency. That, I think is like overrated on on twitter because they overlap a lot with kind of coastal elite circles well, but I think He learned in the you know. Trump may have appealed to multiple factions, but I think you just named like every faction republican party. So, in the end like you know, he may have started as a factional candidate, but I think what we expected in two thousand and sixteen, which was oh, the anti Trump vote work will consolidate. Then it happened and Trump just kind of crept.

Creeping up. So if you want to use this data, to say oh by DIN, has a lot of cross party appeal, I think that's total. I guess what I'm saying, though, is: I don't think this disproves the notion that there's this chunk on the left. That is not on board, by Dan. How big? That is how important it is, I think, is up for debate, but right. I don't know that anybody is necessarily making the argument that bite and is the trump of twenty twenty, except in that you know he's leading in polls right right, but in looking at this Civic poll there are different levels of support when you say that Biden's advantages in the 40s forty point margin. It's also including people who are saying. Oh, I would probably vote for Joe Biden if he was up against all odds with who aren't, for example, that's twenty five percent of those people say they would probably vote for him. So this isn't again like set in stone right,

yeah. Look, it's it's it's early, that's absolutely true and again as much as I think that Biden is the most likely candidate to win he's under fifty percent so most times the primary ends with someone else over taking him at some point slowly or quickly. Whatever else, but if you think that Biden is leading only because feel so divided. That's not he would also be leading by a pretty big margin right now, if like, if they were any combination of two candidates. I would have loved by the way to see these numbers for burn because he is a little bit more of a factional candidate. They publish those- I guess not right but like how would Bernie do versus Cory Booker or something one on one. I would be curious about echelon insights for your next poll. Look that up as we wrap up here Claire does. It seem like there's an obvious choice. If there was going to be anti biting candidate at this point that people who don't particularly like Biden, would rally around now I don't think so. I mean sent it. I

Actually that was interesting that in that poll, Harris had sort of pulled the head a bit behind. You know to third place behind Biden and Sanders I mean I I do think Sanders. We talked a little bit in the past couple podcast about how Sanders A see saw a big. Of drop off of support once Biden got into the race, and you have seen is new cycles in the past week or so talking about his pro sandy E's views in the 80s, and you know you could could see. Other candidates, perhaps in the debates, may be pointing to that at listen do you want that guy in the general election to be in debates for trump to be able to to him saying he supported and t? U S. Smooth meant blah blah blah. The short answer to your question, though, is no, I think it's still kind of like an interesting. A lot of people are kind of hovering in the second tier. Do you have a sense, Michael? I'm not sure I have sort of

no thoughts on this and that I think the anti biting Canada is going to be. You know some from the from the left. I think that makes total sense and it is a case where the last time we talked about lanes was like, but several months ago, and in there wasn't much evidence of lines. Yet I think your start to see a little more evidence of lanes come through in the polling, so I do think like Sanders or war in or something from that. Party you know, would make a lot of sense. You know what lanes there, man there's the winners Lane and the losers lane right now lions in the winners Lane ad with that Let's move on to the back and forth between Pelosi and Trump last week, and what sources are describing as an overarching strategy, but first today's podcast is brought to you by we work. We work designs, flexible work, spaces for businesses of all sizes and industries. We work. Spaces are designed to maximize workplace efficiency, employee effectiveness, team collaboration and creativity. It's the perfect

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additional fees may apply for Hawaii and Alaska, see Casper dot com, slash terms for additional terms and conditions limit one code per customer and cannot be combined with any other offer. All right last week, things got heated between speaker policy and president Trump in a way they haven't really before she said that he is quote engaged in a cover up and that she wishes his family or staff would quote, have an intervention good of the country. He called her quote crazy Nancy, saying she's a mess and she's lost it and that she I understand the trade deal with Canada and Mexico, although Apolosi was working to convince her caucus to go slow on the issue of impeachment, so here's what the times reported about. Basically, what happened last week and I'm quoting the collision was anything but accidental, Miss Pelosi, set out Thursday morning to pick a fight with Mr Trump three people close to her sad and then they go on the times goes on to say

her decision to dramatize the fight, also represented an embrace of Mr Trump's own signature, political tactic, an attempt to divert attention from a divisive internal debate. In this case a drive by two dozen of her caucus members to push ahead with impeachment end quote. So, is it fair to characterize what happened last week between Trump and Polozzi, as basically Pelosi trying to pick fights with the president in order to distract from the issue of impeachment or two like substitute impeachment being like I'll, be antagonistic, but we're not going to impeach him sure if you The reporting that's kind of the picture of pants is I'm not sure it's a distraction. So much as she wants her caucus to feel like he's not being soft on Trump that reportedly, why she comes out the cover up line and kind of goes after? I think that makes a fair amount of sense. Evan I buying the the

yeah sure I mean like they live like there's literally sources close to close, which is probably like her so it's her Pansino Lucy, saying that this is a thing like I gotta say I had no time for this. What happened like Thursday? I love this all, my god. I hated this. I was also working on something else, but I just found the day just like stupid, an exhausting an it felt, very reminiscent of like the first, order of Trump's presidency. When everyone was like losing their mind at every single press conference that happened or every Sarah Sanders Press conference that happened, it was just an I was like I mean it's, It's Martin Polo sees part. It's like very bread and circuses for the masses, the masses being in part, the democratic base and impart her caucus. Who wanted to do something but like ultimately, it's kind of like sound and fury signifying nothing, except for just like the endless play fine next

why I'm I want to make an argument for why I find this interesting, but not sure. I know why I'm interested, I guess. First of all does this mark any significant strategy change for Democrats like this, I'm not sure if I find it to be a shift by the way, can I make it. Little scolding media point. It's here and so go for it? If I said no do not? Actually I don't should be able to say sources close to x if the source is actually XI. Think that's totally misleading. That's also a conjecture that it is actually an answer, I'm sure sometimes in the history of sources close to exit sources x? Ok, I don't in any case Ok, go ahead with your other point, yeah, I'm not sure. If I really see this big turning point, I think is kind of a slow newsweek and so therefore people like a more into it, I mean I'm not sure that policy strategy isn't to like Goad end to be combat if a bit like with the shutdown right plus but not want impeachment, but you'd probably do

the president, doing rash an unpopular things and by the way in terms of operating, I don't know we should make too much of this. It is a little bit of a lower ab than it has been it's back down to forty one, those after it went up soon right. Not in our average, very much a competitor of ours who shall not be named. Who has we think This is noise in there for an average based on which makes suppose absent, be included that showed a search for trump we'd. We should have up to forty two or forty three. I think, I was down to forty one one slash two or something: these are not like hugely big shifts, but, like look politically Democrats end game should be to make Trump unpopular, which seems like totally obvious. Right, but you would rather have Trump's approval rating dropped to thirty. Eight percent, and then you have lots of options, including if you were to pursue impeachment, might become more popular at that point. So you're saying The strategy is set trump off in order to make him less popular, but like does anything that Trump did on Thursday

or Friday or whatever. Does that show a new image of President Trump to the american public. Well, they haven't seen before and make them reconsider what they were thinking when he was at forty, two percent. No, but the american public like President Trump by and large, and they like him better when he is being involved with the daily news cycle and the tweets and everything else and just steps back and manage is an economy. I think is very good right now, right and so the more and by the way, infrastructure is one of the few areas where plausibly plausibly. You could have seen a bipartisan bill. Being passed. Democrats probably wouldn't want that for me, pure political calculation standpoint, because it would potentially make trump more popular and so therefore to have an excuse not to have to pursue that is fairly effective from a standpoint, and also the fact that, like now, because Trump says or Fuson negotiate with these guys, while they're investigating main you know. That is an excuse public going to like imagine so so all the sudden now he took the owner

apolosi to try and come up with some compromise on it. Let's pull back what was the point of the last four days of new cycle truly like. Why ask that question like literally half the time, but I think we should like interrogate this right because a stem the event was about infrastructure. A that the american people want to happen and that a lot of people agree we need, but both sides I mean trump. You know truck left the meeting for a preordained press conference right. We he had slogans up friend of his podium, Pelo C, as we know from the supporting kind of plans to pay them or whatever wasn't really serious about it. So what you I was like it's a it's pseudo event right on both sides. It's a falsified. Bent masquerading under the pretense of a real thing and then we've had four is of news about the pretense thing

whole idea of it is, I mean it's really about impeachment and not about infrastructure right, but we all just have to be polite and say it's about infrastructure. I don't, and I the infrastructure, one time so far in this segment. Well right, but it's fed, I mean it's done what it meant to do right, which is feed four days of new cycles, about how tactical Nancy Pelow See is an how you know if you believe, like Masha Gessen at the New Yorker, America's politics have become completely trump ified, as if this marks some, you know turning point in every but it really has just done what we've done for the past two one slash two years, which is feed. You know, move the move it forward. Days going to the memorial day session, get people talking about this and not something else, and it's you know, listeners readers of newspapers. What was the point of it? All? I don't know political game yeah. I mean that just saying we should like it its artifice. It's definitely artifice, but I guess

but I like about it is that it played out in like physical space in that did not like he was out? The thing didn't happen in the matrix this time, yeah, no it normally. What it is is like Trump gives a press conference or just makes remarks to reporters and and policy or or whoever the antagonist is, does the same thing and it all kind of plays out at a disk and so anytime, where the participants are going somewhere and interacting, little more interesting to me. Did it Anyone besides her congressional caucus and people who read political news like did last four days of events and new cycle have any to do with the american electorate and ok, if well, now, What is the short answer, but if this whole- and I agree it's artifice, but if all this artifice had the effect?

of tamping down the movement in Polo sees caucus for impeachment. I'm not sure it did. But let's say it did that's the kind of theory of this then sure, then it matters because then there's less of a move for impeachment fair yeah. I guess I just think it's sort of fascinating that people got, so into this one particular thing I think we should also neat said something that's worth questioning a little bit more, which is beyond just tamping down the calls for impeachment. It may not be in Democrats best interest to pass an infrastructure bill. Do you agree with that? I mean. Is there a reason for To believe that politically sure I mean that's, why I don't think this was a shift strategically. On Democrats, part like from oh we're going to try to work with Trump to get infrastructure to own. Or not my hunch is they never had much desire to pass an infrastructure bill with Trump, because why would you well the other thing

it's more of a divide within the Republican Party that is within the Democratic Party right, because the Senate would still be very concerned about public funding of infrastructure, even if Trump got on board with Democrats yeah, but passing something Trump, getting to have a signing ceremony with like a big infrastructure bill where we get the Trump Highway ACT, or something like that? It would not be good for Democrats politically heading into two thousand and twenty. I think that you know you all sorts of evidence that Trump, approval rating is depressed from where it quote. Unquote should be based on how well the economy is doing and some other stuff, and so the more Democrats can have trump misbehaving and sort of tweeting out crazy stuff and throwing tantrums. However, much Yes, it is the american people. Don't like that, and so you know I think where we are right now is sort of ideal for Democrats, in that it sort of

Lee looks like they wanted to infrastructure deal, but they can plausibly point Trump and say: hey he's the reason this got blown up, so it is. It always counter to the interests of the opposition party to pass legislature, while they're in all vision is not just how it works. Well, so it might be of interest to democratic members of Congress, so democratic income in the house would probably be perfectly happy if, if Trump delivered, some shovel ready project to their district, but it would not be of interest of the democratic candidates for president for Trump to have this big popular bipartisan. The accomplish! and then I I think that what's different now Galen is, I think it was always sort of. I think there was always election year, some some resistance to giving that the opposition party a win, but I think that the the sort of time frame from which the the opposition party is like acting on that urge, has expanded way.

Before you here, like. Oh, it's an auction ear, so you know that bipartisan thing won't happen now it sort of doesn't really matter if it's an election year or not. It's just all the time right, all right! Well with that, let's wrap up by looking at how the design for the first democratic debates is shaping up, but before we do that, today's podcast is brought to you by ups getting into debt is easy, but getting out of debt is hard, especially if you're Franco Score, isn't great sky. High interest rates can make it incredibly hard to break out of the revolving debt cycle. Thankfully, now there's upstart dot com, the revolutionary lending platform, the offer smarter interest rates to help pay off high interest credit card debt. I'll start goes beyond the traditional psycho score. When assessing your credit worthiness, they actually reward you by on your education and job history in the form of a smarter interest rate. I'll start believes you're more than just your credit score. The best part once the loan is approved, most people or funds the very next business day over two hundred thousand people have used up start to pay off student loans or to make a large purchase free.

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qualifying rules for making it into the democratic primary debates you either have to have sixty five thousand. You need donors or you have to get at least one percent of the vote in at least three poles from a prescribed list of Poll, the Dnc regards as good polls nationally or in the early states. The fine print says that, if there are, however, more than twenty candidates who meet one or both of those standards, then there are other rules that apply beginning with you both the donors and the polls criterion and then ranking of how well you do in the polls, and so you know, potentially, we would not have twenty two candidates on stage even two thousand and ten. It's actually met one criteria. Both. Then you go by how they rank in the polls. I believe so who has qualified so far, or maybe it's easier to talk about who hasn't qualify

so far for the debates. I'll tell you everyone who qualified by polls and donors, okay. Richard Yang Sanders our work. Booker Warren Ensley by Biden, Castro, Harris Williamson, Buddha, Judge Gabbard, so that both poles and donors and then there's a handful of people who have qualified just by the polls, which is the Blasi Swalwell Delaney hickenlooper, that's it, and so they just don't have the sixty five thousand individual donors and then is there anybody who got the sixty five thousand individual donors, but doesn't of the polling to qualify a nice yeah, not according to our tracking of this, so who hasn't made it people who have not made it our Wayne Messam who doesn't even qualify

major kind of by our definition, Seth Moulton, who does qualify as a major? Can it but has not made made to debate yet Michael Bennett again major tenant by our definition, has not made the debate, an micro val who does not qualify as a major. Can it per five hundred and thirty eight and has not made the debate. What we found out last week, Essentia Lee Nate, was that they're going to divvy up the top tier candidates among the two now what was the stated goal for? Why they're doing that? The stated goal is that I think, as well as the unstated goal, is that you, to avoid having a pile up of the strong candidates on one night, where their forward feel. Like the other night was a junior varsity. What is the point why why? Well, I think it's stupid but I think if you're the Dnc uhm, then you're trying to look like you're being to all the all Swalwell's and then people to watch both night

and maybe more so you want people to watch both nights yeah. So that's you think, that's why they're during this, I should keep focus on both nights of debate. I don't really think they do. I don't really think they've thought the sturdy lay- and I think we're already seeing I mean the whole history of like the presidential primary system is the law of unintended consequences and the history of over correcting for last time and therefore creating new problems. I don't like it list MIKE a read of like that. However, many is like thirteen of qualified by both like those should be the only people that are worthy of debating. If you can't I'm sorry get sixty five One thousand people donating to you, which Beto O'Rourke, who is not the strongest man in the field, got in one day. If you can't hit one percent in three poles, also then you're kind of wasting your saying that it's that they shouldn't have this many candidates in the first place that they should have had more stringent requirements to qualify for the debates right but like once, you have established. Those parameter

Why do you the problem with splitting it up into two? Why do you have? Because I think it's, I think, it's insulting to candidates who are as popular as biting or warrener harasser Bernie to make them debate all these do who are just going on on right for president. Get more that people could have. You know that if you're the party organ that you part of your job is just to facilitate and there might be people who are aren't as well known who have better Ideas and they get a television platform Yes, we can your scene in town hall, in your Fox NEWS, Town Hall and you can run average and you can use your platform to get to GOSH one percent in the polls or how about two percent better, but we're not talking about qualifying for the debates whatsoever. We're talking about the idea of divvying up top tier candidate, and so part of the rationale might be like yeah. This person is not pulling so well now, but the whole point of the debate is to get national exposure and make your argument or if you have a jv and varsity, and nobody watches the

the debate, then do you just situation where you don't help achieve the goal of the debate, which the white people in national. You know. One thing I would also say is too like Nate as a former debate are the people who will have who are basically no names have kind of nothing to lose. So don't you think that they might throw harder questions or harder attacks at the top tier people than other top tier people would throw up top to your therefore making the debates actually more slightly and lively. No, I think you see a lot of gimmickry Engadget days and that people like yeah it's a place that, like football, Walter gadgets like doesn't sound like a flat, I'm not really bad. Today on my football that doesn't sound like a couple, it means like a trick play right. The stunt, no, I think, the debate is to is to force, the

teacher candidates to debate one another it's the winner of the field, but that's not how they work. I mean they. Work that way sometimes, but like don't, you think you need like someone in there throwing bombs there No, I mean again we're not talking new when down to five people, there's already like the and Club Ciara or whatever right there are ones who actually have been here's their whole lives and not just like a two term. S mentor, something right he's on MSNBC a lot like they're the ones you you get more attention in the debates there more popular there better credentialed and I think the Dnc is raining all types of person sent for all these random mediocre white dudes to run for president not very hard to qualify for the debates and their exacerbating it by saying yes, Seth Moulton. If you one percent in three random polls, or always talking about how people should try to be more small D. Democratic closest inclusive yeah isn't this, but this is so they can sit at the kids table there in the room and they go to the kids table and you can have that. First night and then leave what's open right, have a pool

whichever two candidates from that group, do the best you're invited back the next night to sit at the grown up table. But, like I don't know, equal time between, because the range of candidates in terms of credentials in popularity is so broad right. You know, I don't want equal I'm for Seth Moulton and Elizabeth Warren, I think voters to either that ascribing a lot of power to these early polls It's not like a lot of these people, don't have name recognition and sure people like Swalwell you can. I think there are a lot of shade at their credentials, but you also like John Hickenlooper? These aren't, like, I, don't think, there's any inherent problem with an overly inclusive and like overly quote, unquote, fair first debate yeah. I remember this is the first debate. They're going to be twelve of these. What I would do, if I were the if I were the Dnc, is say: ok, I have an overly inclusive over fair, first debate, which has some of these issues made talking about

but then slowly ramp it up debate by debate. So then at least you're giving you're giving some of these people a platform. But then there's kind of a clear and predetermined Winner Wing, as you go debate to debate, but I have it I've? Seen them lay out these later debate criteria which, if I were a campaign, I'd be like? Well, let you know it's just gonna be determined after the fact, but I I think the first debate. It makes sense that it would be super include we step back for a second and ask what is the goal of having primary debates. The goal of the Democratic Party should be to win elections. That's what the goal of the Dnc should be period and the extent being perceived as fair is important to elect. Because different constituencies in the party, when I presented, and that's important, but it's an means to an ends. There are not

the people who are who are screaming for John Hickenlooper to be treated fairly because he has one percent support in the polls and by the way, by the way, the fact that if he booted or an Andrew Yang, or Marianne Williamson, with especially cases very little name. Recognition can build a concert, for themselves shows that It doesn't have very many excuses and at the by John Hickenlooper isn't doing better, is because he's he's a bad candidate who I have a good plan for how to win the primary there's. So much going on here tell us what you really think, yeah but over with this campaign, for you feels like it's going on, for a most people have started paying attention yet, there's! No doubt hi to having a really inclusive first debate right. So what's the problem, you're also coming at this from two different places. In the sense of neat you're saying that the goal

the Dnc sets up these debates should just be to win elections and were asking where the question of what is the goal of having a debate. It's like introduce candidates to the nation so that people will he informed and then can therefore vote in the primary and decide who they like, even if they don't know who the person is yet wait that that all has the added benefit of I think can more likely you'll win the election, the more informed your voters are in in evaluating all these candidates and picking the one the like they like most, you would think you'd end up with the best candidate, as opposed to I don't trust the Dnc's judgment of who they think is most likely to to be Trump. It's not you're. Looking at the judgment of voters as reflected by poles and and donor amounts, I'm just saying that, like I think those thresholds should be higher because the voters are saying we are not interested in John Hickenlooper and Eric well well and every moment the Eriks well Bell. Talks is a moment that

Elizabeth Warren or any club Charlie, still tighten the rig the debate to environments for the second debate. That's why I'm saying I name and they will. I agree with all of this. MIKE January two thousand and twenty- but I think right now- you start wide and then you tighten, I just think, like matter of attitude that the party shouldn't drink bad and out of that yeah. I think it's an interesting. I think they just making an interesting argument. I immediately think of like when people used to think that there shouldn't be direct election of USA editors, that this that that people should window for it's kind of what I'm saying, I'm saying it's like you have five or six. It's a people really like and another four or five Canada, shown a fair amount of curiosity about and get them to all have meaningful interactions with one another. Those top ten or twelve is alright. The heart, that's already a fairly large field and then you're being overly

as to the Eric's Wall Wells. No, but I know it's not actually orders one year. Actually, my points replies because you're you're actually having the different interpretations of democracy. Obviously that the Dnc is like a club right, it's not a federal election, but the idea that it's like representative Chrissy versus some simulation of more direct democracy in the Dnc is trying to do a simulation of more direct democracy. How about this? The candidates are announced in random order and they give like a fifteen second speech. I'm job in I'm running for US presence president, I was to be a senator from Delaware and by the way, the vice president. Voters in the debate. By a show of hands, either give thumbs up or thumbs down actually up you are allowed to proceed to the debate. The ones for thumbs down I like a pit of alligators in devoured. Well, who sit. In the audience. I guess would be

The next question a randomly selected panel of micrometers likely Voter Democrats just Nate, ok, so wrapping up here we've, you know, there's been a lot of heated attention given to how this debate is designed do we know how much of an impact these debates have on primaries. Like I'm sure, there's been political science research done primary debates. I think, have the potential to have more effect than general election debates, because there's not part of septa override everything else, but the effect are usually fleeting. I think studies have found, but I don't know you know it's like we've had. This will be the second field now, where we've had to candidate. So I'm not sure that it's safe. To conclude, we know all that much about how what role debates in win a wing or otherwise affecting such a big field, so

based, can serve as focal points or focusing points. Maybe it's more precise where they do the conversation around certain candidates because look if you want to be honest, like this new cycle last week in into this weekend three day weekend, it's a really and this new cycle, there's not a lot happening. You know some of those except the fact that the elephant in the room aliens excuse me Ufos, but it might be that Kirsten Gillibrand is a candidate who has a good eight an now. We have a conversation focused and her and her mirror and marriage as a candidate and someone who is largely been ignored again. Like again part of the reason why I like I am against being like early inclusive is because there are a lot of interesting well credential candidates not gotten there saying

maybe hickenlooper, is a bad example of one to teases like irrelevant, because he is a governor of Colorado and that's like a fairly good credential right, but you know, but I would rather have a converse in about like a Kirsten Gillibrand traditional presidential credentials swalwell or maybe then Eric Swallow really has it rough on today's podcast. So I tell you why, though, I think other news organizations are like too afraid to say it at this candidate doesn't really have anything useful to say, and it's just running be on tv more, which is great involved in this podcast were brave. We speak truth alright! Well, I think we have exhausted this point I'm also pretty sure I have a fever, so I hope this makes sense to everybody. Who's listening, 'cause, I'm totally sick right now this whole podcast was a fever dream by Galen out play with. It was all a dream in any case, let's leave it there. Thank you Nate. Thank you, Galen. Thank you. Claire

and thank you Micah, thank you. My name is Galen drew Toni. Chau is in the control room. You can get in touch by emailing us at podcast at five hundred and thirty eight com. You can also, of course, tweeted us with any questions or comments if you granted the show. Leave us a rating or review in the Apple podcast store, Tell someone about us thanks for listening and we'll see you soon