This is the fifth episode of the gerrymandering project sponsored by bluebottle coffee. The democratic process can be complex and even confusing, but you don't want to miss a thing, so it's important to pay attention and stay alert. What better way than with the most delicious coffee around blue bottle coffee. I'm talking coffee that so delicious, so flavorful you realize you been bringing sub par coffee, your whole life, hurried, bluebottle, coffee, dot, com, slash politics for ten dollars off your first coffee subscription order. That's bluebottle, coffee, dot, com, slash politics; just a no before we begin. There is a swear word in this episode, so for those of you listening with kids, we wanted to make sure you won't caught by surprise. Ok, here's the episode in Memphis, there's area called midtown in midtown is younger people more liberal ideology,

is more hip picture in your mind where you live your town or city, your neighborhood. What makes it feel like a community. They all have similar interests in the sense that they care about the outdoors. Is it the skills that you go to encourage school district is a very big part of anchored, even if you don't have children, your cultural, ethnic or racial backer? I think that collective memory of growing up in this

union very much as something that defines my community do the folks around you work in a particular industry. Aids, based on trains like if you look at where the computer rails are that's, probably the best way to find a dilemma or worship at the same place. There are certain like jewish community centres, like art museums, do you share common traditions or value? It's like right before all the flags turn confederate. I think it's bits, probably at something of a crossroads. What makes your community your community? There is a grocery store, coldly park, slope food, co, op, it has every radius. I think that's the community. Ok. Now, if I told you to draw on a map. Could you do it your community from a bird's eye view? What are the confines? What is definitely? in your community. What's definite, now in your community. Can you draw the line. That's one of the key ways: California drew its political boundaries in

two thousand eleven by asking citizens around the state, what communities they wanted to include in their congressional districts Welcome to the fifth episode of the gerrymandering project works I believe, around the country to look at the effects of gerrymandering and how reformers hope to change the redistricting process Caliph and yet is one of six states where an independent commission draws the lines instead of lawmakers Arizona which that last episode is another but California stands out as argued by going further than any other state. Try to remove partisan politics from the process, as stated goal of many people frustrated with gerrymandering, so that we once and for all from the revision process, the commission was charged with drawing lines based on existing geography and so called communities of interest, and it was adopted,

California, and to define those communities in public hearings? But politicians are Californians too, and they had their interests to look out. What caused California to create its commission did not have to do with the same old, partisan type of gerrymandering. It is much more to do with it acting incumbents. The way they draw the distant lives is the predicted incumbents? That's well I'll. Let him introduce himself. I'm on Schwarzenegger and governor of the State of California, from two thousand and three to two dozen eleven he backed redistricting reform. Governor and has since continue to advocate, for it? I'm a big believe with the most terminated gerrymandering in America, California, lawmakers used to read district with the goal of protecting incumbent republican and democratic alliance.

California used to be, and in comments Paradise. That's Dave. Waterman editor at the Cook political report and five thirty eight contributor the previous round. After the two thousand senses, the Democrats ruled the legislature farmed out ask of redistricting tune in common congressman's brother Howard, Berman's brother, Michael, and member of the delegation brought him a check? in two thousand one former demo private congresswoman Loretta Sanchez told the Orange County register that all but two of California is democratic members of Congress Cave Oberman twenty thousand dollars apiece to draw their preferred district. He drew a map protected. Not only the Democrats in the delegation put made a pact with the Republicans to preserve Democrats. Thirty three to twenty see majority Sanchez went on to say quote: twenty thousand is nothing to keep your seat. I spent two million every year here. She's talk,

about money spent campaign. It. She also says quote: if Colleagues are smart, they'll pay their twenty thousand and Michael will draw the district. They can win it, those who have refused to pay God help them. When you look at it, stick lies the drawn. They make absolutely no sense to anyone, but it is. Or designed to keep Democrat separate from Republic it this strategy for drawing created an environment in which lawmakers felt entitled to groups of voters, they saw as beneficial to them without much regard for existing communities. Orgies in LOS Angeles, for instance, create was split into three or four districts. The Filipino american community was split in two coffee thing. Is the national redistricting director of the non partisan group common cause, she's also its Zack director in California during the two thousand one around of redistricting. She testified to the legislature about how the line should be drawn to keep asian communities who

as we traveled up and down the state. We were hearing these stories about people feeling for the first time the importance of talking about their communities fangs. During the process. She got a call from a democratic assembly person. I had received a phone call a legislator from San Francisco and It was my first I'm talking to you know a sum a person or a senator, and as a year maternity. It was quite exciting to receive this phone call, and this Some called me to essential, They tell me caddy, you're, not gonna, put on they're fucking Asian. In my district, I asked her to idea. Defy the lawmaker Carol Maiden she out of office now, so I guess I can say your name. It brought me to tears. Because it was a realisation that we still have a lot of racism in this country and even in a very blue state. Like California people come, to power, with a sense of entitlement that allows to make. The decision

about excluding people based on race in order to protect their own seats. One reached for comment, Carol Maiden said she did not recall the conversation in the end, it was clear that the what Nature was not interested in considering public testimony like fangs. What we he found out was that, after four months of public hearings, the lead Slater, went behind closed doors and drew the lines that they had always intended to the California setup asked the maps on September, twelve, two thousand one and the assembly pass them a day later, while the rest of the nation was rocking from this time first attack that had happened, there was essentially a media blackout, quite Firstly, there was. A real moment of reflection about whether or not our democracy is functioning their incumbent pretty Action plan was overwhelmingly successful. The deal that was passed in two thousand and one made

I'll foreigners map almost impervious to change. The ten years during which the map was used was a volatile. Period in american politics. It saw the Iraq war, the two thousand the financial crisis and to historic political waves in Congo, Democrats dominated into thousands sex. The blue If that swept democratic control here in Washington in Congress also have big impact on state legislatures and, of course, the governors races and Republicans made it back in two thousand tat. This is the moment the Republicans have been waiting for and the Democrats have been dreading. During that time spent. There were two hundred sixty five regular house elections in council. Two hundred sixty five opportunities for an incumbent too he's a seat to me is unbelievable. Only one incumbent lost Ray election in a general election between to them. To twenty tat. California at insulated itself, from the political volatility facing the rest of the country. A few of the races we're even close-

through a two hundred. Sixty five: U S, house races in California, only Fourteen of them were decided by less than ten points, just five percent of California. Rational elections. What competitive? take a that. The soviet Politburo Butch angel. Our assistance here in California. Rather than pushed their luck and try to remember their way to a bigger majority, California Democrats chose to make maps that entrenched their existing majority, while also protecting their republican colleagues seats here, just in love, it associate dean for research and a professor at loyal a law school in LOS Angeles. For decades, California legislators essentially took care of themselves favouring their personal interest and then at a rough second, their parties interests over The public interest Californians were far from satisfied with their representation in the mid term. Thousands, you had an anti

establishment fervour and California that was reaching fever pitch. You had had a governor that was recalled, you add a republican, moderate governor and Arnold Schwarzenegger, who was agitating against the legislature. We additionally in California. Had very low approval rating of the legislators must sit down. This law is sometimes the twenties. The legislatures approval raining bottomed out at just ten percent. I note and sports I learned a lot of medicines from sports. If I go And lived in a weightlifting competition of politics in companies, and there's no one there. Just me. I can guarantee that I will not perform well just now human nature, but because someone there lived the same weight than I have two out lift em, and I will leave that than ten pounds more in that

there isn't any. Who tried to outline my ten pounds, and then I have to go ten months higher. This is how I used to competition that create great performance by the MID two thousand. The time was right for reform. Never became governor of California. This The last thing that I thought of was that the ever will get involved in redistricting or how the district withdrawn, for this is the crowning moment of the evening for a man who has won in the California recall for the first time in the states, history, and only the second time when the country of governor has been recalled, but after a little over a year in office, Schwarzenegger back a ballot initiative that would turn over the process to a panel of judges California, is one of twenty six states with ballot initiatives that bypass the legislature and put laws straight to the voters to decide commit legislator gets reelected every time. I can't get a job and they can't lose

I don't know about all these other proposition, but the legislators- hey, rob. Seventy seven for the legislature was not happy one day, like a month before the election, the phone call evening and, on the other, was both leaders, the democratically, and then republican leader, that to me was kind of unusual it. Both of them will be on the line and specially calling from a bar nearby, because for I was before we had meeting in the office, and they were spitting at each other They were screaming at each other, but now The party leaders were on the phone playing nice with each other and they won't phone as governor of yours endorsed this idea of rejoined the distant times and doing it. Finally, in order, if we, only against that they put them.

Where their mouth was stuff from seventy seven, the politicians power grab. It's a bad idea. The three retired judges hand picked by politicians to redistribute thirty seven million Californians and the initiative was defeated, but what's a matter said that was a turning point for ass. I started it now studying this more carefully and then the I got into. It the more I saw how bad it was. The more I became a fan I think about it after Cathy thing experience in two thousand one. She was all, pushing for reform in this about, and lobbying efforts failed, so she our colleague's started writing a new law themselves. It would turn over the region drafting process to an independent commission of fourteen California. Schwarzenegger got on board his joining the campaign ultimately helped launch effort with a large by partisan coalition, as well as some funding to be able to gather the signatures. They again put it to voters

about initiative, the whole thing attracted all kinds of spending and attacks, particularly from congressional democrats. Opponents. Eleven undermines democracy. By giving the final stage of a commission on elected by the people, it was eight because they re the predict the status quo as much as they could enable Democrats and Republicans alike, but eventually, voters approved changes. To the way the state, legislative and congressional maps were drawn, they have to say in California, tried as hard as it could to remove politics. From the redistricting process, though, legislation that Fang led authored, made a point of keeping politicians out of the process. It began with how the commissioners were chosen. Roy where you had to fill out this initial form, which was quite long. That's events. Moreover, he was, chosen to be one of the fourteen commissioners. From a pool of over thirty thousand applicants, you had to apply and be vetted

eventually chosen by a lottery names were into a little basket envy. Stayed auditor role it around three Democrats, three Republicans and two others were chosen at random. And then those commissioners picked six more people to intentionally diversify the commission as a point of comparison, the commissioners in Arizona, were chosen by party leadership not at random, and you remember how that one, damn you can't get any more piracy and then DAS. The California commissioners came from all walks of life barrage it was one of the five republican commissioners and he asked I happen to be the former director of the? U S census. There was also a extra owner, a stay at home, mom and an urban plan or the law that created the can had all the usual guidelines about how the district should be drawn: equal population contiguous with the regular shape. And in accordance with the voting rights it also a few more one. Commissioners were

art from drawing maps that favour any given party candidate or in company and too said they should focus on drawing lines that do not divide. Existing cities, counties or communities of interest one of the things that we wanted to lift up was this ocean of communities of interest. My purse, no experience in working with the Asian in community was a motivating factor for making sure that community voices were heard. It's about making sure that representatives have something to represent here, the representative from off and was sure the representative from the central valley. We have representatives from a certain area not by happened, but because we think there's something to representing a group of people from the particular area. Who, probably stuffing common it wasn't required by law, but in order not to inadvertently draw lines for partisan reasons. The commissioner's agreed not to look at data like voting history or party register,

patient, unlike Arizona, they weren't charged with drawing competitive districts. So they didn't know that data the Citizens Commission, when all around the state sat for hours of testimony. Frankly very boring settings and listen two testimony from citizens who advocated for what they saw as communities of interest so who showed up and what

They sat there's a ninety two: ninety nine percent, higher concentration of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender individuals. In that area are not, here is a partisan for politics. I am here as a partisan forces working counting. Our people are bound together, the community of like minded residents. We are artists, musicians entertain in professional them right, as it also includes areas have words Ebro Form, an ostrich farm. Seventy eight horse, for my name, is grace you and at the time of the California we district in process, I was taking second director at the queen miracle collection. In LOS Angeles, you worked to lobby the commission to draw district mind that would keep Koreatown hope. You ve got it Stand some of these folks had been preparing for like two years to get everything ready and present in a good manner plenty of groups

the korean American Coalition organised and gave testimony to the commission. But there were other people who showed up who were exactly community groups, but Miss Paul Mitchell, I'm the owner of a company called redistricting partners, political consult, so much clients ranged from groups like Aquatic California. I had Brad Sherman, who is an incoming congressmen as a client, I had a Labour union in San Jose as a client. Obviously there were in common sure scared to death that they will lose their political base or that it would be chopped up into pieces by the commission. Lawmakers and interest groups higher Mitchell to influence the commission's map drawn, but remember, districts. Not be drawn to favour politicians or parties, so consultants like Mitchell, couldn't just outright ask for a good seat for a politician

his suggestions had to be massed in the language of the criteria. You have to be able to know what versions of districts are good for your client and have evidence to go before the commission and say this district, maybe sixty miles away, is better for the latino community. It splits less cities, knowing that there is a kind of a domino effect and if you can get districts drawn in certain way with in a region that you're going all to Molly, put the commission in a process of drawing the district that you want in a better fashion. He would come up with publicity strategies and draw proposed maps. One of his clients was congressmen, Jerry Mcnerney. He did, hire me to analyze a number of different options. Help them understand that, yes, in fact, a sand working district could be democratic if it was drawn. This way We realised that keeping San Joaquin whole would likely created. District Mcnerney could win. We create a facebook page. We we did that nordic cradle, that more public.

Before it. We provided to the commission maps and data around the idea of keeping centre a keen hall congressmen, Jerry Mcnerney, did not respond to a request for comment. Different politicians and interest groups had different concerns. I also had members of Congress asked me for things like keep all my defence contractors. In my district in key these businesses. In my district, I have a specific example from a local redistricting guerra. Somebody made me redraw, redistricting planks didn't want their ex wife and a district, but you don't have a good one for the congressional there wouldn't like in Trouble Mitchell was not the only person who was employed to lobby the commission We know that there were meetings in Washington where staffers in Congress people sort of Matt from the Democrats delegation to disguise and serve coordinate. What they were going to ask for oak appears as a rapporteur, proper blocker. She,

investigated the California Commission for about a year during two thousand and eleven, we were really interested when the California Redistricting Commission went into a facts. You know, if you call a commission who is actually going to show up and testify and what are their motivations reduce printing hearings probably aren't at the top of a lot of people to do less, but politicians are very directly affected by the results, so you can bet they're going to try to find a way in in two thousand eleven pro public up Mr report, looking at attempts by Democrats to try to influence the Commission Republic, for the most part, stayed away. Here's Matt Rexrodt a republican redistricting consult. The leadership within the party said that we should engage in us about the hand, sort of deal, and we should do their work, and I went to a lot of these.

Mission hearings and I watched him across party and a lot of democratic party officials who are very much in the process and I would say that bag certainly out. I thought the Republicans in two thousand, I love and unrealistic, and it was to the commissioners to discern which testimony was in line with their mandate, here's Conny column, Us Malloy, one of the democratic commissioners. For myself office one. Commissioner, I was very wary of that door number of times where we would get the mission where it was clear that there had been an entity that had reached out had our network, then said say: act to the commission again hears Vince Veronica one of the republican commissioners. You can kind of tell when somebody's reading from a script. Richly somebody's got some strong feelings about whether discussing, but there was a lot of testimony and drawing mine could be difficult. The commission heard about two thousand seven hundred speakers and received about twitter the two thousand written submissions we

pull down all the emails that were sent to the commission and we actually dead a text analysis using faint. Computer techniques to look for reasons that occur over and over again, and we found that about. Eighty percent of the emails that were assigned appeared to be. You know, group of all, meaning that trunk of tax, were the same throughout the emails. Somebody had probably told a bunch of people to write the same thing: but even knowing that it doesn't necessarily mean that those submissions were out of line with the goals of the commission. There's are reasons for people to organise and when it is reason. They relate to the criteria that we are considering we paid attention to it. It's hard to imagine commissioner, could always tell the difference. In wanting sample? The commission receives stacks of the exact same submission. Lobbying keep certain communities in the foothills of the Angelus National Forest together. One the common interests horses, people,

I had some pretty kooky ideas about what a community of interest wise there needed to be a force. People district, for, I guess, horseback back rating enthusiasts. But if you look at the zoning map of allay. You see that Those neighborhoods are especially zone for people to have horses. Who's to say whether or not that's a legitimate community of interest, and how do you, know whether there is some underlying motivation. Those communities ended up being largely kept together on the congressional man, one of the class examples was there were bus lots of people. They came from I saw these LOS Angeles to argued before the commission too. Not split, allay axe and under the commissioner's understood, why the public was so focused on not splitting allay acts in the redistricting land mine. Was the out

a horror of landing in one congressional district in your luggage is all the way over in another congressional district. They made no sense. The LOS Angeles Airport shows a plenty and submission to the commission. Suddenly, late July, the commission began receiving numerous urgent emails about one specific neighborhood in the allay acts. Noise mitigation and sound, proving community of interest. We part of our regional coalition that I had to come together to get such a sound programme programme as some accountability about laid my flight, the neighborhood it was Romanones, a one Square Mile neighbourhood among many in the lax flight path do a little research and you'll find out that that's where congresswoman Maxine Waters lived she'd been drawn out of her district, but the commission Do research like that they were barred I'm looking at incumbent addresses, which way

it's good on one level, given how redistricting works other places, but it also meant that when somebody showed up and said something, it was hard for them to assess whether it was first political ends or not the lines around Vermont knolls were not change to accommodate the sound proven community, and today axiom waters does not live in the district. She represents. So how successful was the commission at keeping communities together and getting rid of partisan politics will break it down with it data in a minute, but first a word from this episode: sponsor Bluebottle coffee Arnold Schwarzenegger once said also a visa to gerrymandering. Well, however, saying are still a visa to sub par coffee bluebottle, if he is so delicious, so flavorful that your realize. I ve been drinking sub par coffee. Your whole life simply put Blue bottle has an insane dedication to coffee. They saw

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so how successful was the commission at keeping geography and communities? Whole academics have tried to quantify it. Here's five thirty eight Harry entered but this paper essentially found is that when it comes the cities. It's pretty clear that state legislative level that there were fewer city, splits, political scientist of LAD, American and Eric Magee compared the number of divisions of cities and counties in the two thousand and eleven mouth to the ones from a thousand want. However, on the county level, it does not seem that the commission's plan really improve that much on the county, split, Maggie and Coke, and also looked at the compactness of the districts, no matter you're. Looking at the assembly, the state sat or the congressional level, the compactness was improved, of course, that The question in my mind, is why is it that we're so concerned with compactness? I think it's because we like to see a pretty little districts drawn up but communities venturous often times can be

You belong gaining in a different study. Next F, a novelist HU. We talk to our second episode about Wisconsin assess, assessed, It is of interest by measuring the homogeneity of the districts. He looks race age ink, education, profession, marital status and housing and but he essentially wants to do when he looks at that. Measurement is to say, ok are coming, It is of interest better kept together and the way you see that is if there is less diversity on those different measures. The results were pretty conclusive. The new plan D far better job of keeping community of interests. Together This diversity dropped considerably from the old plan to the new plan in two thousand and eleven So I think that there are a lot of communities that have found themselves with a new ability to elect candidates of their choice and have candidates who are responsive to them. Again, here's grace you they were able to provide

a new rendering of the state maps that kept Koreatown Hall and you five in one congressional district work and State Senate District and an estate assembly district minus a couple of blocks, there were some notable places were communities were not kept whole. They took the african american community and they cracked it in the three different districts. So all three african american aggression or women could have a little piece of the African Americans very Matt Rexrodt, the republican redistricting consultant, says the commission broke up the african american community and allay more than was legal and that it wasn't tempt to bolster the support of three different african american lawmakers. Commission wasn't willing to follow the law, it is simply ignored it for political expediency. It is worth king. Whether the goal should always be to cluster similar voters in the same district is one of many value choices in the redistricting process, although Rexrodt

his criticisms of the commission. He doesn't oppose it, but overall the commission was the right thing to do. I just wish they would have implemented the process better and eat If the commissioners do follow all the to a t, they still have to divide some communities, cities and counties in order to keep others whole they have to because of require. Moments like equal population. Are there winners and losers in the reconstruction process? Yes, because how you draw the lines you can't perfectly rubber. And every single interest so the commissioners, as with any decision making body, are tasked with a difficult decision, by various measures. The commission did a better job than lawmakers at creating cohesive maps based on keeping communities whole. But what about banning politics? Would we? didn't cutting funding would be able obsessed about was to get it completely away from the politicians take that power away from them and give it back to the people. There is disagreement over how

much influence politicians had during the process. We can definitely identify please is where politicians asked for something and more or less got it. For example, Jerry Mcnerney now represents the district where his consultant lobby to keep San Joaquin Hope, commissioner, Robert says that doesn't necessarily mean something went wrong what they want it and it was consistent with what we were. We prior to do that could have happened. Yes, Malloy says they also warrant solely relying on testimony

times where we are the war privy to more objective data of neighbouring regions, whether that was about the local economy and local democratic local kind of environmental issued or have said all talk. It's not hard to imagine the political consultants had some degree of influence on the commission. All Mitchell says that's how it should be. They argue that changing me, different commission was gonna, take politics out of the process. It didn't. It moved the politics to an external place where people like me are gonna, have an opportunity to influence the outcome and that overall, it's a much better process and having it behind closed doors. He says that should be acknowledged and incorporated into the process. I wouldn't be opposed, to actually think would be of benefit to the process. For there to be more report and maybe even more of a professional association like we have with registered lobbyists for people who are,

advocating before the commission, Cathy is less eager to welcome political consultants. There are some behaviors that cross the line, and we need to be vigilant about it, so even if you think the commissioners are too stupid to figure everything out and could get blinds by some external well paid, well, heeled lobbyists there's one more layer of review. She says that if the parties. Are lawmakers really do have too much influence over the process? Californians can sue the law, after all, prohibits making decisions based on incumbency or partisanship, but she. So acknowledges that lobbyists like Paul Mitchell, will try to sway the commission where I'm trying to say that we are creating a process that somehow scrubbs everything clean. We live in the world that we live in so for the Asian, our community that I worked with in two thousand one. We want to hearing after Hearing- and it didn't make a damn bit of difference, because

we didn't give the kind of money we didn't have a kind of access. We were not a voting block that people needed it. Attention to and in two thousand and eleven the difference was Small community could come to the commission. Their voice would be heard just like somebody who had a paid lobbyist. At least we were at the table. The ultimate test for California is new set of maps. Was whether it would break the incumbent stranglehold on state politics without benefiting one party over the It is eleven on the EAST coast, we've got pull closings in California, Hawaii, Idaho, Oregon and Washington. Two thousand and twelve was a political earthquake in California, seven members retired in twenty, and seven members lost reelection. In other words, the maps passed the first test

striking degree of incumbent turn over more than twenty I've percent of California delegation was new and twenty thirteen. We have seen that kind of sea change in two decades and two thousand twelve was not even a wave election, the rest of Congress, how to turn over rate of only eighteen percent as to the second test Democrats did benefit. Overall. After the new maps were drawn into them, twelve, they picked up a total of four new seats democrats of sin. Picked up another seed, so there are thirty nine seats to Republicans at fourteen, but It's not necessarily an indication that Democrats had undue influence over the process. One way to judge the fair of the congressional maps is to use the efficiency gap, a measure that We discussed in the second episode about Wisconsin Supreme Court case, according to an Associated press analysis done after the two thousand sixteen election, California,

has almost no efficiency gap on the congressional level. In other words, the two parties have almost exactly the number of seats you'd expect based on the votes they receive. Did it tilt unfair, towards Democrats; no, it did not did it tilt on early towards Republicans. Now it did not show of democratic did for once the line drawn they didn't do so in a way that gave them noticeable electoral benefits as far competitiveness caused. The increases have been modest the initial two thousand twelve shake up. Only one c has changed parties, that's true, but the opportunity has been there. These races have been closer than they used to be. We ve seen the competitive this of elections cripple This new map was installed during the last decade. Five percent, house elections more competitive in this decade. It's been fifteen percent competition. The goose performance

I know that from sports I learned a lot of medicines from sports. It's also very likely that they'll be incumbent turnover after the two thousand penal action, the natural environment is heavily favouring Democrats, which could lead to the first major political scene, since the new set of maps were drawn, its possible pandemic that's good hold. Forty five. It's in California, will see how big a wave washes up in California, but keep in mind. The commission did not have the goal of drawing competitive districts, in fact drawing districts based on it is of interest or voters who share commonalities. Is in some ways the opposite of trying to draw together equal split of Republicans and Democrats. That also might have been tricky in a state like California, that's overwhelmingly democratic I'd argue that California has done a better job of rum,

moving politics to the extent possible from the process than other state commissions have done. Waterman gives the cow for New Commission high marks. The fact is: redistricting has important implications for a lot of people, incumbents and parties. Definitely he concluded they will try to find a way to influence the results in it may very well be. Possible to stop them. I think the best we can do as a democracy is to find people I do not have a direct self interest in the outcome to do the best, Nobody can. I think that there are some people who are saying. Well, you know you have this process, but it doesn't really exclude politics who said Could you know it's almost its unrealistic. In fact, Matt Rexrodt, encouraging republicans to be more involved the next time around. The Republicans will learn a lesson from that. But will

I don't know the answer to that, but I want to be engaged in other people come on. I don't think so Make that mistake again so, hopefully, the Committee and will be better equipped, for the answer has that I think will occur and though be ready to be scrapped, about what people sharpens as we ve throughout this series. Redistricting. The complex process full of trade offs in difficult choices. Theirs some things that reform conference, but there are others that it likely want. That's a difficult sorry to hear when the loudest voices are calling for a wholesale end to gerrymandering, I always shoot for perfection, because no my whole philosophy in life It has been shown for the stars, then eventually you may not get through this us. But you will get his highest possible wise, Thirty four, let's go Fournier set its sights high,

by many measures. It did improve its system to some extent. Both Republicans and Democrats agree the data. Definitely, doubtless, we may know reach profession that we may reach the system that we have now no political map ever achieve every go, but there are plenty of improvements that can be made. Remember Angela Bryant from North Carolina democracy. And a lot of work is the full time job. Somebody from somebody body to help, going as the Terminator says, the mission goes on next week and our final apple, we'll take stock of what we ve learned in the series and talk about some of the ways that other countries tackle redistricting. This episode was reported and produced by me, Galen during an edited by Chadwick Matter

our politics. Editor is Michael Cohen and are in turn a associate producer for this episode was Kate balked Europa. Tony, How is in the control room and an pope, did the engineering and scoring a special thank you to Jody Obregon, David Waterman, Vanessa, Diaz Lou. Cardoza shawl as far on he Chelsea and Joanna broader remember to check out our Facebook group the gerrymandering where you can share your experiences with gerrymandering, asked questions and help answer. Some of our questions go to Facebook and Sir the gerrymandering project, you can so get in touch by emailing us at pod, counts, five, thirty, eight dot com or, of course, send a tweet. If Europe, and of the shop leave us a rating or review in the Apple podcast store when you rating. It helps our wrinkle, which helps other discover the shop or just tell them on about this series, we'll be back next Thursday, with more of the gerrymandering project. Until then thinks we're, lessening