Hey there listeners before we begin, we have a favour to ask and we promise. I won't take up too much of your time. You know that our show is supported by some fantastic sponsors and we'd love to hear your feedback about them had to pod listener survey, dot com and fill out a short anonymous survey. That's it won't take much time again its power I'd listener. Survey. P, o d with a survey. Dotcom thanks, a bunch hello and welcome to the five thirty eight politics podcast, I'm Galen droop, and now that the election is over special council robber, Mahler is making news again. Mahler essentially went quiet during September and October in the run up to the mid terms and on Monday Mahler broke his silence in a big way, saying that trumps former campaign, men Paul manner for violated his plea deal. My report

the blue lying two investigators, metaphors lawyers, we without assessment and now we're all sort of waiting for Mueller to put forward his evidence that Manifold violated the deal and that even close to all we heard this week so here with me for an update on where the Miller investigation stands is five thirty contributor Delia Thomson devout him has gone contacts. How are you Galen doing and actually, since model talk is now on hiatus? I'm thinking that maybe we can call this Mahler talk about that, I'm super in an so. Do. You know how to do the intro, I'm going to say that I'm Galen and you say that your Amelia and then we introduce people to Molotov ready ok, I gotTa Lake put myself up for this. Europe must do it. Right the five very politics broadcast I'm Galen droop and I'm in earlier Thompson, devour and This is a smaller talk. Ok very go well,

What will happen in practice in the future will get better and better. A strong start. Let's begin with, men affords plead falling apart, and then we can expand from their. So, if metaphor did lie two investigators. What would that mean for him? the larger investigation. Last we really saw of Paul man afforded the last time he was in the headlines in a big way. It was back in September and he was pleading guilty to to count of conspiracy, but he agreed to provide full and truthful information to federal investigators and in exchange, if they you know, he cooperated with them and everything one as planned. They were going to ask the judge for a more lenient sentence,

so now? If it turns out that as Mothers Office is alleging, he did light a federal investigators he's still bound to the guilty plea, but Mahler doesn't have to ask for a more lenient sentence for him, so it means he's not cooperating and there is kind of a cloud of suspicion around any of the testimony that he didn't give because there on the record thing, he lied to them and Anna Juries public, I trust that, but it also not great news for manner for either and do we know anything about the nature of the purported lies that metaphor told smaller we down at this point, so it happened earlier this week is that Mahler and Man efforts attorneys filed, what's called a joint status report to the charge where Mahler said. Basically that metaphor lied about a lot of different things and that they would file a document before he sentenced outlining all of his quote crimes and lies Minos like oh,

a little bit of a teaser. It's really important to emphasise at this point that we don't know what manner for it allegedly lied about and manner for, meanwhile, is am contesting NASA's. I think he mentioned earlier. He saying that he actually provided truthful information. He hasn't breach the plea agreement and so basically everyone's at an impasse in their saying. Let's go forward to sentencing when it comes to this future filing that will lay out the court on core crimes and lies, I've heard a couple theories about what this document could do. Basically, if Robert Mahler wanted to, he could tell a whole detailed story about manner for its involvement in dealings with Russia and basically put out a chunk of his report as a court filing does that seem likely. Does that strategically makes sense? I mean it strategic.

We make sense if mower thinks that he has findings that are really important to get out there, that he thinks are unlikely to get out there in the form of his final report, and that would be because the final report is not made public whether that likely is harder to say. Obviously, this is also a guy who has like an ax over his head. At all times, because the president is constantly talking about directing his attorney general to fire him by it, it's definitely not the most expected thing for smaller to do, but certainly you know if he did want to get information out there without going through. His final report, which he doesn't control, how its disseminated or who ends up seeing at it is one plausible avenue and he's had pretty detailed indictments and failings in the past, which is how we know

a lot of the information that we do know about where the investigation stands. Yeah really long and of lake novelist. Stick there have been some sort of way spy, novel details in his past indictment so he's definitely capable of writing an indictment. That's full of detail, Howls or a really compelling story of alleged wrong. Doing right. Thinking about what's happening from man affords perspective. If this is true, why would he lie two investigators One obvious theory: that's getting thrown around right now. Is that he's after a part in, and so that's why he lied to Mahler, because he didn't you know he doesn't actually want to fully collapse it with him. I mean another theory: is that he's just you know he's like a really confident kind of like cocky guy and he thought he could outsmart Mahler ringing?

or maybe he didn't realize how much information Mahler had em so thought. I can say these things that Mahler can't possibly fact shack and then Mahler was able to fact check and there is, I mean, there's one leg really far fetched theory that history has been floating around there for a while, which is essentially that manner for it is afraid, he'll be assassinated by the Russians, if he's not safely locked up in federal prison. This seems to especially not make sense right now, because it's not clear why he would have gone for the plea deal in the first place if he was really afraid of the Russians in that way, but you now it's it's early hearted no by he would have done this yeah. Well, you now, if you're, if you're into spine off old and you feel The news is not exciting enough, which is something that I think all of us think constantly yeah. I mean not last one very far fetched by

You know really hard to say why he did this and I should say there was. There was one more development this week, which was that than your times reporting that not only obviously that the relationship between manner for it and Mahler has deteriorated because Mahler thanks Man, efforts but mind him, but also it turns out that man affords attorneys kept talking to trumps attorneys after manner for it had entered into this plea agreement, which is really unusual. It not at all uncommon fur people in investigations, people who are suffering to share information, but those agreements usually stop when one person starts cooperating with the prosecutor because, like there now on the same team anymore, her, and so the fact that man afford you kept up this relationship with trumps. Attorneys is also

pretty startling- and you know, could sort of explain, at least in part, why his relationship with Molly we ended up deteriorating, so much is. Presumably. This was not something. Molly was happy about. Now he's going to be sentenced, it sounds like as soon as possible. When would he get part and in all of this, if he would get pardoned and what kind of sentence is he facing? Considering that it sounds like the pleadings fell through. He is facing potentially quite a long sentence and even if he is almost seventy, so up he's looking at a decade or more, that could be the rest of his life in prison. The president, could pardon him at any time. Wanting to note is that heavy if he did get pardoned that would get rid of the federal crimes on his record and mean that you wouldn't served jail time for those, it would not keep say the attorney general of Virginia for going after him for no tax evasion or other crimes that were committed in the state of Virginia. So it's not you know, it doesn't seem like he would be off completely sky,

free necessarily if he were pardoned by it. I mean the issue with the pardon. Is that if president Transport, a pardon him now or before the investigation is over then. The pardon itself could pretend should we be seen as evidence of obstruction of justice that the president is trying to interfere with an ongoing investigation by pardoning someone who is a key subject and also, if it turns out that you know, perhaps the president there's some kind of evidence that the President promised a pardon to manner for it in exchange for his not cool parading with special council, our mother, I mean that could be problematic to so. If the president really

wanted to pardon manner for the smart time to do it would be after the investigation is all over. How much of a loss is this for the more investigation they thought they had a key witness, cooperating when metaphor made the plea they'll. Now, fallen through is a loss. It's a loss in so far as Minafer. It's not providing NAM information and he's not gonna enow potentially serve as a star witness in a trial and its import because one of the reasons that it seem like man might have valuable information from all areas that he was one of the people who was present at the now infamous June. Twenty sixteen trump tower, meaning and said Oh, you know interviews he's not providing information about that or he can't testify about that. That's a loss other than that I mean he may have provided some leads. That could be helpful for Mahler,

Maybe he can get the information that he was going to get from manner for it. Another way see you not might create more work for him, but he still might be able to get what he needs from someone else or goats that's manifold and potentially will learn more when Mahler files, this document detailing his purported crimes and lies, but actually another character, sort of took the spotlight as the weak progressed and that's Jerome Course who people who have been following this investigation casually may not be particularly familiar with. So can you just start by introducing to drum coarsely. Who is he a cheer up courses, is a very colorful figure who hazardous and, under his, I kind of been at the edges of Trump world, or at least thanks he's a conspiracy theorist. He was one of the original birth errors he show on info wars. The right wing website

He was actually, I think, on the staff of info wars for a little while last year, an damn. The reason that he is caught up in mothers orbit is because he hasn't links to Roger Stone. And the reason that stone has been sort of bandied about as like as a key figure. The Mahler investigation for awhile is because there are a lot of questions about the links between him and the people who hacked and leaked the emails from Democrats during the twenty sixteen campaign, but goose far right or gucci. Fur were, however, yours, but yeah, yeah and so, like Mahler, has established that the people who who hacked the emails were Russians and so right now the challenge is trying to figure out, how the stolen emails got two wikileaks, which distributed the emails and whether people who are part of the term campaign- or you know, maybe like Roger Stone kind of in an advisory role at the trunk campaign

aware of the fact that these emails had been stolen or maybe even helped to distribute them. That sort of the big open question right now and so Jerome Courses from what I understand was cooperating with investigators, but then investigators. It was claimed that he lied to them, and so they asked him to enter a plea deal acknowledging that he likes and so this six page please deal is written up by the Mahler team and in of course, the signing and pleading guilty. He gave those six pages to the Washington Post ass if he was it cooperating in the sense that manner for it was, he had just been subpoenaed and we knew this. You know there's been kind of a parade of people who have connections Roger Stone, who have been subpoenaed by Mahler over the past few months. So we knew that Molly had been talking to foresee in a number of other people. I mean this is also coming from course see you so take it all with the grain of salt, but

in a first. He was saying I'm gonna be indicted by Mahler, then there are reporting that he was in talks with it for a plea deal, and now he saying that Mahler is trying to get him to plead guilty to something you know he he may have in advance. He said something that was incorrect, but he didn't mean to into he's not gonna, kill assign a guilty? Please saying that he lied to investigators and, yes, he did distribute this draft agreement. We is pretty extraordinary that he did that. Now we have those six pages of the draft agreement, people can go, read them in their short, but what can we learn from those six pages? First of all it this kind of interesting to read, because it so rare too. What's happening inside the Mahler investigation before we get these polished and long in novelist. Stick indictments and this draft

it could change. You know, sort of hard to predict, what's going to happen, but the interesting thing in this six page argument is that, essentially, it seems to show course and Roger Stone, communicating via email during the summer of twenty. Sixteen about Wikileaks emails and course see predicting a big email dump in early October you know which, which would seem to be not good for either of them that they knew specific meaning a new specific things about the emails before they were released? It sort of suggests that they have a channel not a direct channel and they were going through some one else, but they had some kind of channel two Julian Assange of Wiki leaks and that in all of them they were thinking in terms of how to hurt Hillary Clinton and help then candidate Trump and of course course he says this is just political. Gaza abided have any advanced knowledge, etc.

Yeah they're. Simply his defence basically has been an Rendre stone, has said similar things about other aspects of this that he was. You know he was sort of predicting and it was based on research. He had done and you know he was. It was a little bit of Poland. Puffer relay like he was trying to make himself seem like a better connected person than he was like Roger Stone again has said similar things so that that's his hence also this week in relation to Wiki weeks, the guardian reported that man afford went to visit Julian Assange of Wikileaks three times once in two thousand sixteen, and he did Sir secretly metaphor has said the reporting is false. What did you mean? that reporting and how does it fit into this whole investigation? It was a pretty extraordinary story and it was a little bit hard to know what to make of it, because, as far as I know I mean I haven't, I haven't been on Twitter and like the past half hour, but no, U S outlet has confirmed this yet.

So we don't know if it's true, I mean it's one of these stories that relies a lot on anonymous sort or relies entirely on anonymous sources in its its vague about the sourcing by potentially if it is true, this is a big deal, because one of the alleged visits to Julian Assange was in the spring of twenty sixteen, which is right around when Parliament Afore joined the Trump campaign, so that seems pretty significant if it turns out to be true, We will wait and see if there is any further confirmation there, but as far as this week goes How much do we learn? That's like materially knew about the Mahler in litigation into russian meddling in the two thousand. Sixteen election How much more serious of an investigation has this cotton for the Trump administration does as we change things or is it kind of still? bubbling along and hasn't much materially change, either

really need to see what happens. Next, I mean it's raised a lot of questions and I think that's mostly what this week has done, because we don't know the content of white man afford allegedly lied about, and we don't. We don't have like like Jerome course. Hasn't been charge. So there's just like a lot up in the air, I think certain it seemed like this was going in a much tighter direction before this week it seemed like manna for it was going to cooperate with Mahler and that you know, because of that, he was going to be no perhaps help Mahler Gatt Moron asian about people who then might be indicted and then that there would be indictments, and perhaps there would be a trial that that man effort would testify out, but it sort of it seemed like there was a much clearer should trajectory and now because of all of this, it's just much more up in the air, so that this week and we are not even fully through the weak, so we will see what happens as the we progressive but

because when you get some updates on what happened, while Mahler was quiet over the past few months and what's going on with the acting attorney General Matthew, Whittaker? But first let me tell you that today's podcast is brought to you by word. Press word press powers more than thirty per cent of all websites from your favorite local shops to the world's biggest companies join a global huh. Traffic network of organizations and entrepreneurs when you build your web site in your business. Your way on word, press dotcom, we're, press allows you to carve out your own corner of the web with a new. Domain name or can use one that you already out. You can create a site that fits you using templates and customers oh themes, there's no design experience needed, use a range of E commerce options to promote and sell from an easy to use payment button to a full, fledged online store, plus you get your website up and running for just four dollars a month, the time

to grow. Your business is now build a website today and get fifteen percent off any new plan purchased at word. Press dotcom, slash politics, that's word: press dot, com, slash politics for fifteen percent off your brand new website. Again: word: press dot, com, slash politics What's continue our conversation and the last time we talked about the Mahler investigation on this podcast was one Trump asked, then attorney General Jeff sessions to resign from his post, Trump has still not nominated a replacement, which means the interim acting attorney. General Matthew, Whittaker is still in place. Of course, he has not been confirmed by the Senate, he's just acting attorney general, so Amelia. Why has trump nominated somebody new heart say my trump has not nominated somebody. New Democrats have been highly critical of trumps choice and either,

Some Republicans like chart grass in the Senate has been saying. You know you really should nominate someone else, please right away, but he said today he is happy with what occur you know. Take that for what it's worth Whittaker could in theory serve as acting attorney general for two hundred and ten days under the terms of this statute that he was appointed under. So we're talking about it's about in MID June, twenty nineteen and still actually he could even stay longer than that, because if Trump nominates someone else then Whittaker could actually continue to serve as attorney general until the Senate confirms whoever his replacement would be. So it sort of a hard stop for two hundred and ten days for Trump to nominate

someone else, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Whittaker gets the boot on day. Two hundred and eleven I mean, if Trump awakes, whatever. Why? Don't you just nominate? Could he not your confirmed, it seems like it would be hard, for wit, occur to get confirmed, never say never, because we're all constantly being surprised by winter You know he's been openly critical of the mullah investigation. He also there has been a lot of room staying on kind of various sketchy business deals in his background, he doesn't seem like a great candidate to go through the Senate to be the next attorney general that way? And, of course, he is already right now overseeing the more investigation. Ensure Democrats have brought legal challenges, saying that it's not legal for him to serve as acting attorney general. What is their argument, and is it

legally well founded there. Actually, a couple of different legal challenges against will occur, and maybe the most prominent one is from the Senate Democrats it's from three Senate Democrats. Their basically saying that his appointment is unconstitutional because he hasn't been Senate confirmed and there This is in violation of the constitution's appointments cause which gives the Senate the advice and consent power over high level positions. Like the attorney general whether the cases well founded senators have one huh I bought to clear, which is that to be able to bring this suit, they have to be able to prove that they have been harmed in some way

I have seen some legal analyse, saying that perhaps its harder for just three senators rather than a committee- or you know the full Senate to be able to bring this case will see what happens, but at the very least there there, lot of other kind of creative challenges to whitakers appointment and it it'll be interesting to see if one of them ends up being successful, but for the time being he's in place- and you know if more files- his report within the two hundred ten days- presumably he would be responsible for deciding what to do with it. What does the timeline look for the Mahler investigation, is a real possibility that he'll be wrapping up with into ten days and Whittaker will be in charge of deciding you know what happens when the report it's a definite possibility. Mahler. His kind have been moving through these different phases of his investigation, and you know he's gotten through. We ve had these two big enough.

And against russian sort of outlining what, though the Russians role was in election interference, and now it seems pretty We that Mahler is investigating this question of well, did anyone american soil or with connections to the Trump campaign, help distribute these materials are coordinated to distribute, damn so it seems like he is moving. Or the end of his investigation, being said, there been throughout the past year. I mean really for the past year reporting every couple of months, sort of predicting that the Mahler investigation is wrapping up and then it doesn't wrap up, but I do think it's a definite possibility that Mahler finishes his investigation and rights. His report about who he he chose to indict, were not indict by MID June and then yeah, it's up to wit, occur what he As with the report beginning January third, there's gonna be another element here, which is that the new Congress will

then with a new democratic majority in the house. What kind of act, do, you think are on the agenda for them in terms of protecting mauler or getting access to any report that he may oh yeah, so I mean the Democrats, have promised all of these investigations into all aspects of what they think are at risk, act within the Trump administration, ethics investigations against cabinet officials and then also Sir said they. They want to investigate, try financial background and they want to reopen the House intelligence committees investigation into what happened during the twenty sixteen election. The Democrats, their own, can offer Mahler formal protection, because the Senate Republicans are continuing to block votes on a bill that has been.

I around for a wild soup, protect Robert Mauler by the Democrats, you know they can do other things too. Try to shed light on mothers investigation if they think that its being stopped, I mean in the most dramatic situation. If dollar got fired, they could in theory, call him for public hearings, so that's all potentially good for Mahler. If he sort of worried about the future that's your stability of his job on the hand, Democrats could get in his way, especially if they start interviewing some of the people that he wants to interview having them give public testimony that kind of thing. So the Democrats do kind of have to be careful to make. They're, not stepping on mothers toes, and you can also imagine that lets say them all our investigation dry. Exxon Fer. You know it still going in a few months and in March or April there

it start getting impatient and trying to put more pressure on him, and could they also ultimately get whatever report. He files, if it isn't made public in media public themselves, think try its unclear exactly what will happen because department of Justice regulations it's up to the attorney general whether he wants to pass the report on to Congress. The Democrats could certainly use all the tools in their tool box to try to get it and I am sure they will, if its released and they don't get to see at all right. Well, wrapping up oftentimes. When we talk about the Mahler investigation, we put things in terms of smoke or fire, so A lot has happened this week in it's been a long time since we ve talked about the more investigation by Would you say that things stand right now, in terms of mothers investigation into whether or not there collusion, and I know that that is a vague

and not a legal definition, but collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia in meddling in the twenty six action. This is felt like a smoky week to me. Galen, I don't know, I'm curious, wait what you think too. I mean honestly. I feel sort of a more confused. Now I would then I did back in September when manner for was pleading guilty, because sort of seemed Lake Mahler had made this big. Break through and he was gonna have this. You know all this potentially important information from man afford and you know now I mean it is not too that we have less evidence now than we did a few months ago, that there was coordination between the term campaign and Russia, but just been a sort of confusing and unexpected weak. I don't I don't know what do you think I am here to see, if Molly chooses to expose bunch of details during man, efforts, sentencing in order to

kind of share with the public. What there's court quote lies and crimes are, and then that is potential, We, where things start to older a little more and maybe you see some flames, I have no idea and of course he could shoot to file. That document sealed, and we wouldn't know what those details are but I mean, as far as advancing from the very smokey situation that we have been discussing for over a year now it doesn't feel like a fire has broken out. Although reading a lot of analysts on this, you begin to feel like they think that things are unravelling for Trump and that the more investigation is getting closer. Hard to know yeah yeah. I agree with that. I mean there. Certainly there are a lot of strands here that seem like they could be very bad for Trump by without knowing exactly how everything fits together. It's just hardest all right, maybe we'll have to leave that for another more talk but anyway. Let's leave it therefore now. Thank you so much for driving, Mammalia ass, curious, great to be here

right, I'm deal Andrew Tony Chow, is in the control room. You can get in touch by emailing us at podcast at five thirty, eight dot com. You can also, of course, tweeted us with any questions or comments If you have any questions about where the investigation stands, that we didn't answer sentiment and maybe, in the future conversation with Amelia. We will answer those questions if fan of the show, leave us a rating or review in the Apple pie cast store when you leave a rating hopes are rankings and then that helps other people discover Michel or just tell someone about thanks again for listening and barring any emergency podcast later this week, we will see you on Monday.