Who hello and welcome to the five thirty politics podcast, I'm dealing droop after a group of pro Trump extra, thus violently rioted inside the capital on Wednesday to of the big questions were grappling with, or why did this happen and what happens next politically impeachment seems imminent. Over the weekend Speaker, Nancy Pelosi announced plans to pass a resolution. Asking vice president might pants to invoke the twenty fifth amendment saying: if he did within twenty four hours. The house would move forward with impeaching the president, so we're gonna talk about how such an impeachment would play out and the extent to which Republicans would join the act, we are going to tackle the question of why this happened. Now where's forces led to the insurrection on Wednesday. President trumps

statement. Election conspiracy theories promoted by many Republicans whitened Nationalism, unprepared, law enforcement and, more so the second half of the show we're going to speak with various writers at five hundred and thirty eight who have looked into those forces, but he would need to kick off the show and disc the political and legal repercussions for the president are sooner politics. Writer, Perry, Beacon, Junior Highbury, had you all here with us, is senior writer and legal analysed. Amelia Thomson devout hammy area again and need is out this week. So as I mentioned House Democrats, are introducing a resolution today Monday, asking vice president might pens to invoke the twenty fourth amendment and then, if doesn't within twenty four hours. The Democrats are planning to introduce articles of impeachment or vote on those articles, so

parry kick us out here. Why have Democrats chosen to go this route its Monday? It has been five days since this insurrection. There has been a bunch of cholera nations within the Democratic Party and amongst a few republicans about how to move forward, How did they settle on this plan that I have described here? The short answer is that the twenty Third amendment did not you know, Pelosi was hoping that might is to do them himself. That did not happen. So there was one thing and it seems like right now. These is hard to imagine that a lot of Republicans in the house and supported these anymore Pollyanna, Republicans in the Senate are probably neck. It is worded these means. We were now at a point where it looks like the impeachment votes are going to be symbolic and businesses are, the president is unlikely easily pushed out of operating in the last few days suggests needed a cabinet nor this The public is agreed, actually support removing from from office

now we're having boats that are basically the Democrats themselves are some extent saying we are mad. We think shrub has done bad things, but it looks like these votes are not going to have the action of actually getting him. about those which, I would argue is an imminent threat. The way he's behave, leaving a novice either the rabbit. The boats are not there I do think, is worth noting that it looks like policy in some ways. Reno actually happened on Wednesday. We're gonna have to be sure, but basically the next Wednesday. A week later, this is a real urgency. She could have pushed forward, and, in my view this is another of the policies or of wanting to get the republic as they take on throw presuppose the doing herself, which we saw a lot of over these last four years. Yeah I mean if it seems pretty clear that my pants wouldn't invoke the twenty fifth amendment there are various arguments for why you should have shouldn't based in why the twenty fourth amendment was created to begin with? Why are they?

in taking this route of waiting the twenty four hours with this resolution. Why not just jump to impeachment? Today I M saying is The point is resolution today and tomorrow, to get my guess. It doesn't think he's clearly not going to do feels like a fruitless sort of waste of time. And I'm not sure, there's any real good procedural arguments beyond they wanna give Republicans on the record. They want to embarrass and shame, might pins more and the cabin where that either the little bit of the democracies, the Republicans arena to reproach Trump vote three times their objectives, on Monday, the objective again on Tuesday, the voting is engagements a you shame the republic, the more. I guess if your closely, but I think, for the american people certain is not do the Republicans cast three votes to make them look bad, but is a dangerous President moved out of office unless I and this resolution process seems to do nothing but have more political votes going, I'm really

what is the point of the twenty fifth amendment that we discuss so much at this point? I think this is one of the complicating features of this whole debate is that it's not really clear, and I think you can make a pretty good our meant that this is not really what the twenty fifth amendment was intended for. Basically, the goal of the twenty fifth amendment is to create a mechanism for the vice president to take over if a president is incapacitated due to disability and helpful example of this might be the twenty fourth amendment was passed in the nineteen sixties and lets say that, when J F K was shot that he hadn't died, he was in Reno some sort of incapacity. Its state and couldn't actively pass on power to the vice president, and so the concern is okay. We want to make sure that if there is a situation

God forbid, that the president is it really? incapacitated and also in the past He did to the point where they are unable to actually pass power onto the vice president, that there is a mechanism for doing that. It's not right. clear and I've talked to some legal analysts and and read. Some reports indicate that it wasn't intended to deal with a president, who is not necessarily incapacitated, is just dangerous, failing in various ways in his role as president so You know, I understand the political appeal of Twenty fifth amendment. First, someone like policy and certainly in the Democrats, perspective and also just

the political realities of what's happening with impeachment. Now that Perry was just laying out, it would certainly be much metre for the Democrats if they could get trumps Zone administration to be the one to get him to leave office in this critical period before Biden takes over, but is not clear that the twenty third amendment is really the. Can isn't. That is supposed to do that to say is more bluntly. We have a very will line. The process in the constitution called peace in wrangle, and this should be the prefer, Who am, I would argue, over a twenty two. it is not intended to be used as a way to remove a president. Who don't like who we think makes bad is it is. It will be, make more sense to use the actual process described written by the founders as opposed to this sort of backdoor method. In its like galling to see the preferred method to be I know it's faster, but it would be much better for the country. I would urge you to have the members elected by the Congress most

we don't know? Who is in terms cabinet? No one voted for them, so the idea that these days removed. The president is opposed to these sitting. Congress is not a good precedent. Also, this idea that- twenty. That amendment is faster. Maybe it's a little bit faster just because of the slowness with which Congress moves but what we saw last year with Trump's impeachment and trial that happened over a period of months, Congress doesn't have to do that. Congress sets its own rules and, if Congress wanted to, they could do this very quickly. So you know that goes back to the point that Perry was making that you know when you were asking about the one thousand one hundred service like what's the purpose of this delay, it's not like is procedurally necessary. There's a political choices being made to push this process along at the speed that it's happening, and there is an argument that

aid that the twenty fifth amendment is faster than the little disingenuous policy could act faster if she wanted to reassure the public different pieces here, which is why the Democrats are decided to take the route that are taking and want the timeline books for that likely impeachment. It seems the vast majority of Democrats in the house point have signed on and then also how Republicans are responding to impeachment itself and also to the president's behaviour more broadly beyond just the question of whether or not developing peach and conviction. So it doesn't seem, like my plan, going to invoke the twenty third amendment. You also made legal constitutional arguments Why not? When makes sense anyway, beyond my pants, how our republicans reacting to the idea of impeachment and conviction? Does Google is making available we, the cabin the person by be inclined to vote removed from their quitting instead, so Betsy devolving Alain, shall quit last week, so that vote is even more those new, I dig think might pontio or a bunch of other sub loyal.

You're gonna vote out the presidents of the third there in terms of Congress. I think in terms of members who have said unequivocally they, although for peace, men and remove all the present. I think we're talking about Adams, in your whose household Illinois Housing applicants don't matter that most but in terms of like who would actually Beaufort impeachment in the house and join the democratic, we're at us very small and Republicans in the Senate is sounds like pat to me. Bins ass may be seen, towns, probably Mitt Romney. You know you probably need seventeen or eighteen republican boastful. Google, I think we're talking about where it for five right now it'll be given. was. Maybe a houseboat moves this, but you're here in two arguments, Republicans the first one is basically sort of logistics, one that doesn't. It the fact is it swamp is leaving office in ten days anyway. We should just like him go out of office. He can't do anything their lead, which I disagree with a lot better than a dozen of arguing. He can't do that much

in the last two weeks or ten days he asked The second argument, with evident even less convincing, is being made by a sort of Rubio and others is that Mps will be to do this for the country and in their seems, absurd. Like D, insurrection that the President courage is a divisive, adds moving at the press would the obviously be controversial, but it wouldn't be just about the Republicans all voted for which they can do so. So the wife's saying division that are causing needs that we here go far. But in reality, even at I find these arguments be barely unconvincing and disingenuous dimly. The second, when the Republicans are national, out of inclination to support the president's removal, militarism, poles of voters and in law like a quarter of republican boaters support, removing the president not anywhere near a majority, and so your price.

wasting a little bit of the core activists who are probably reaching out to members of Congress. Maya subsidies are probably more inclined to be against trumps. Removal being for transfer mobile. This is a little bit of a chicken and egg problem that I dont know that we can answer on this podcast by if report weekends? All decided on Mass in Congress that they did want to remove President Trump from office. Would that in itself shift Republican appear or is like trumpet. The only person who has control over base for public opinion so respects one most important questions. I think we have about this part of the world's history is: could the Republican Party have reigned in the official Republican Party members of Congress? The establishment have reigned in shrub more if they had the early or his trunk control the base, and ideally, as it is not really clear, I looks like in the polling that a big blocker

begin. Voters are very comfortable with this, and I tend to think that group will grow to some extent if Miss Mcconnell, Kevin Mccarthy seized police, Nicky Hayley gave a joint statement saying this is unacceptable, think that never could grow. But I do think that we appear trunk based and might be forty percent of the Republican Party, or so they would not go with them so that users, I'm not sure. I think that there is a court shrunk base by don't think it's like the overwhelming majority there Hoboken Party, I think it's a block and I think a unified republican statements from Thursday We're all republican leaders on Thursday said Trot must go, would have moved republican opinion, but those people did want to do that So beyond the question of impeachment itself, which relies on members of the House and senators power Republicans reacted so not necessarily on whether or not he should be impeach whether he should be convicted and removed. What our Republicans

doing I mean this is like a huge event in american history and if they're not encouraging the president to be removed from office, what they say well. There is like the initial reaction from a lot of Republicans after the events of last week, that was kind of lake call off your governments and stop these people from continuing with this insurrection, which President Trump then followed up with as a statement that started with well, we all know the election was stolen by you. Gotta go home which lake obviously like. If you continuing to insist that the election was stolen and there are people who are riding in the capital because of it like that's, not gonna help anything, so that was like a pretty rejects a bull and extremely week T response, and then we ve seen just sort of like you know a variety of actions that are condemning what happened but saying you know we have to move on in the name of unity and, like you know what

it's really the Democrats who are pushing this divisiveness by trying to push for impeachment, unlike we really need to get point where the country can heal and the way to do. That is not by trying to insist on accountability for the President and as Perry was saying like get him out of office at a time when he could still be quite dangerous. Has there been a break with him like have people disavowed tromp, even if they're not calling for his removal? I mean I don't know, break with him looks like Now is it's not supporting him no longer being an office. If you have people executive arsenal in Chow who reside from the cabinet and their late? Okay. This is a bridge too far. I can't be in the cabinet anymore, but they have served under Trump for the past four years,

in other, been plenty of things that have pointed to something like this happening, and Trump has done plenty of things that are not inciting an insurrection but like leading to this point. so you know to say like oh, I can't serving this administration anymore o this president has gone too far. This question. What a break looks like. I don't know what that is at this point, given that it the choice, Basically, do you let him stay in office for remainder of his term or do you Oh you know. He can't really do that. Much damage its better for the country to just let him, Sir, about his term and leave and then Biden will take over and then we can move on from there. So Mickey Hayley said in the last few days, Troms Post election actions will be cool judged harshly by history. I think this will result in one year, like that's my senses, the people who distance themselves withdrawal

will use his name and say Donald Trump? bad things in this post election period, I'm guessing Furthermore, these negative, it is about his actions in the most his first four years, but my senses Dolby Republicans, who will say directly what Donald Trump indeed lead to what happened in the capital and then we'll get a lot of applicants who would suggest the Mai and some people, or with Antigua. Instead of other things are suggest what happened and winds. They had nothing to do with tromp very little or nothing debts the poor difference there, we're going to see disavowed throb is gonna, look like when Nicky Hayley said, and I think you'll see a fair amount of people do that, even if the don't be silly vote for removal unenviously outside there are plenty of republican protocol against outside of Congress. You don't have a vote on this and my guess is those people will also divide in those two camps of who believes tromp for Wednesday and who doesn't? What is what

the colonel said, his wife did resigned from the cabinets. I think he's sort of trying to hint that he's in camps- I dont use directly said we day was because of Donald Trump, but I think he's tried to play both sides of this while some of his efforts have been hinting the trunk cause this. So I think it's like just Mcconnell ever get to the point of disavowing trumps in. I think he might. He hasn't done so yet is my impression is commendable more circumspect, he's nine in the zone of like the Republicans, we are not at all the criticism, we don't help either I think that I just add is that Republicans this debate over impeachment, like it's not just about whether to remove Trump from office, obviously could the effect of doing that, but also there is this option as part of an impeachment trial that Congress can bar him from holding

further federal office, and so obviously we're like heading into uncharted territory. Here Trump would be the first president to be impeach twice much less to intercede. Impeachment trial potentially continue after he's no longer president, but that is another option, even if their trial happens and it doesn't finnish or even start until Trump has left the White House. There is this other step that they can say. Ok, on the way has any more, but he really needs to not be president again. He needs to not be able to run in twenty twenty four, and so I think Democrats are likely thinking about that and and will try to. I wouldn't be surprised if we see more pushing on that score: its dig in a little bit too that timeline, because for republic into our saying you know. I condemn trumps. Actions by impeachment is divisive point of the argument. is that, while you couldn't be removed from office before January twentieth anyway. Unless

all one hundred of the senators decided to begin the trial. immediately as soon as they received the impeachment articles from the house. So that means one Republican says no and is therefore not possible to remove the president before the twentieth. So how are democrats thinking about this process, given that Are they going to try to fast track the articles of engagement and pressure? One hundred senators to begin the trial immediately, and I guess pretend that that is a possibility with hold Articles of engagement until Trump has left office, therefore, maybe slightly acting counter to what they say. A claim is which is to remove the president as soon as possible? What happens here so interesting thing is happening. We're Mcconnell. There was a story in the Washington Post where people close to Mcconnell, so the foot of the aid. dear Mcconnell, is- is the majority leader and controls the Senate until January

when it is managing and woods until calmly, Harris sworn in so we'll tunnels allies folded, the idea that they couldn't because of the city calendar and other his they could change if they wanted to, but they floated the The added impeachment trial could not start until January nineteenth and therefore in peace. Material would therefore exe and at least beyond their that and what their hinting is. Of course, the impeachment round the Republicans are threatening. Essentially impeachment rail will go into the first ten days two weeks of the Bite administration in and now you're seeing buying. AIDS is that of anonymously tone. Reporters were nervous about it, piecemeal because we don't want in peace, Did it get away in the way of our first couple weeks is governing so now you get basically a situation where Republicans are hinting if you're going to do this, we're going to really slow going to have a real impeachment, then we're going to slow, walk as much as possible by MS

like I don't. What he's getting really my purse of waste is president, so I think Kleiber and has suggested that we should in the articles of using up, but maybe like in March, something is all seems a little bit convoluted- gives a lot of sense like legislative gamesmanship being played here, but At the end of the day, nobody thinks the trumps gonna be removed ceremony, serenity. What is the timing best for placating individual political means is it passed. Bull Amelia to convict a president who is no longer in office again like this is a bit of an open question because it hasn't happened, but the consensus that I've seen from the legal experts who who study impeachment is yeah, there's nothing really to say that the president can no longer be held accountable for impeach of all offences once he is no longer in the White House and the fact that there are other mechanisms beyond remove. All four

Holding the present an accountable suggests that yeah. This is something that the president doesn't like immediately get her out of impeachment free conquered as soon as he vacates the White House, I've seen some questions as to whether it would be possible for the Senate to bar president Trump from ever holding federal office again without actually convicting him, and that question has to do with the fact that you could buy him from holding what office based on a simple majority, so fifty one votes, whereas Dixon would actually take sixty six or are you know, two thirds of the Senate? What kind the legal opinions have you seen on whether or not you could enact the repercussion without the conviction. Based

the consensus I've? Seen as that you, you do have to do the conviction vote first, and so that would need to happen even if Trump was no longer president, and then you could do the fifty one vote, borrowing from holding federal office. Obviously from the Democrats perspective, you know be much easier to accomplish the goal of barn trump from home federal office if they only needed as simple majority, but there may be a little bit of diversity of legal opinion about this. Just because, like that is inevitably the case in these uncharted territory situations, but most of the legal experts at least that I've talked to and I've seen right and wrong we're not less seem to assume that its two thirds vote to convict, and then you can go down the path of ok. Should this person be barred from holding federal office through some of the polling. I've seen on this and, of course, we ve had five days for the public to

just what happened and tell posters what they say, but it somewhere between seventy and seventy five percent of registered voters oppose the storming of the capital, with around sixty percent, saying that it's a threat to democracy and perpetrated by domestic too. So there is pretty overwhelming. condemnation, although not universal, at all condemnation of what happened. I've also see pulling that around fifty five percent of Americans think that the president should be removed. So that gives a little bit of the lay of the land. Is it a political liability for Republicans if they do not move to impeach president or the I don't have one other options. They have been saying happens. App receives office if they dont convict him either does not become political liability. I don't think so. I kinda thing did the next elections are almost two years from now I assume Donald Trump will not be on the ballot in enemy election. Maybe one of his children will be a major problem for them, but

have short memories, most voters, but based on party I'll, be curious, even if you're in a swings day, does the Democrat run against the republic and even mention you voted three times to keep Donald Trump and offers a new also voted to question. Lecture results, even wonder if that's an issue on the table in two years I am sceptical a resolution. I am sceptical We'll move many people, this is unpopular. Obviously, the insurrection of the capital was tear more, but I think linking net atrocities were Democrats could do. I do They will, and I dont know how effective it will be interesting. It is as unknowable. I am just surprised by a fleeting. You see, this being the event itself, obviously earliest fleeting political. Korea, the political reasons for innocent Republicans, I'm skeptical are very. It depends to a certain extent, to write on what happens next. I think there is the question of what are we going to see me?

violence around inauguration day and then sort of like what is Trump going to do when he is no longer president, but still, and thus also like lost a lot of his platforms for reaching people, but still presumably holds pretty significant way over his base. So I think for me, part of it is you know what is termed post presidency look like, and but how does he continued to activate these divisions that resulted in such horrifying violence last week and that's kind of the big open question for me and I would guess, is something that Republicans are probably at least a little bit concerned about like it is better for them. If Trump is not they're out there inciting violence when he leaves the White House, if you just aids into the background quietly knowing what we know about Trump. I certainly don't expect him to do that. So I think that's one of the big unknowns for me, the other big, no, no,

by doing so, it looks, like Biden was to get up on January. Twenty then basically say this part of our country's history was terrible and over and work starting a new page I get this is buying is not interested, particularly in like really detailing what happened. Describing it excelling Republicans whose Where did this in any way out of public life? I didn't the demand of the democratic side for looking at these, As for years looking at last, we can really punishing the people who perpetuated this particular tromp, but I dont think It is shared by Biden. Who is the person who has the most power to influence public opinion in particular among liberals that even among the rest of the country of biting his head in his I want a long period. That's gonna have a big impact. because we're he is right now is also your earlier point about where republican stand and whether or not their face political repercussions. Just so many

I am against the majority of the House caucus voted to overturn the results of elections in particular states that it seems like there's, almost a suicide packed up this point, whereas it was like a significantly smaller part of the party, then there could be some kind of movement to ostracised people by state level, parties, the Aral Sea Writ large, the House caucus to a lesser degree, Republicans and the Senate. It was only six saddened that voted to overturn the urgent, but there's so much inertia here that that may well be part of the reason that they are held to account by the Republican Party. self. The question will be for some of these Republicans whether they are Nicky Hayley or whether they are Dan, Crenshaw or people who want to pursue a future in the Republican Party are also breaking with Trump two summits, but not talking about conviction, remove all etc. What are you

going to do about the fact that the base is still really excited about Trump or these excited about trumps politics and what have duly taken the primary? What argument do they make to the public? I'm certainly curious to watch how that unfolds. but we're getting to the point in every conversation we have that its we don't know. Yet we have to see what happens. This is to be determined, and so let's end this year, and let's talk about why this happened and to do that. We're gonna bring on a couple more people into the discussion, but first today's podcast is to buy new think about everything you ve ever learned about getting healthy. There's a lot of contradictory information out there and things like that old fashioned food pyramid aren't much help end. new based in psychology Numa teaches you why you make their choices? You do and gives you the tools to replace your habits with healthier ones. Comes cognitive, behavioral approach means you're, not just losing we, your building the habits you need to keep it off. Everyone is

and that's why new doesn't demand much of your time. They only ask for ten minutes a day and over eighty percent of numerous finish. The program and over sixty percent have stuck with their goals for at least one year sign up your trial today at noon and oh, oh, am dot com, slash, politics, learn how to eat again with new sign up for your trial. Today, at noon and oh, oh, am dot com, slash politics again sign up for noon today at an oh, oh, am dot com, slash politics! Pro trump extremists attempted insurrection at the? U S. Capital resulted in at least five, and according to reporting since Wednesday seems to have come close to a significantly more dire situation at encourage listeners to read quoting from the Washington Post and the New York Times about what happened in real time from the people who expiring

state? It really gives you a sense of the extent to which the security of the country's lawmakers and air one in the building was on a resource edge. So one of the big questions now is: how did we get you're so joining us for this segment? In addition to Perry and Amelia is clearly Rogers politics and tuck reporter here at five Ok why he has gone gone while also joining us is Hakim Jefferson he's a political science professor at Stanford University, researching race, identity and american politics and he's also contributor to five thirty eight higher came thanks for joining us today. They are going to be here, as I mentioned at the top of the show. The elements that led to the storming of the capital are Paris, there's from specific incitement leading up to and on January Sixth, there's, encouragement from from an many Republicans to believe that the election was fraudulent, there's white nationalism militia movements on and off line, a lack of preparation from law enforcement,

more and, of course, many of these things may overlap. So all have researched and reported on these different forces, and I want You're from you are what you, research and reporting tells us. So, let's open things up with that fundamental question Kelly. Let's start with you, you wrote an article four, the site over the weekend, that is titled truck, help, take extremist views from the fringes of society to a mob, attacking the capital, so kick off? Why did this happen? In many ways this was the culmination of years of- online rhetoric that what has been brewing and has been fuelled by trump- many ways and by a man right wing, far right wing extremist groups online, there's been sort of this. Fantasy about taking back the country about violent acts to take over Congo and this has always been there in the rhetoric, but it certainly reached a fever pitch over the last year due to

election, losing the election Trump claiming that the loss was fraudulent. and that the election was stolen, and then you add into all that the pandemic, which is a really big factor here that I think is sometimes overlooked. There was a lot of satisfaction with certain liberties being taken way due to locked out which were necessary in order to try and curb the spread, but which many people opposed and felt like cross. The line and people were out of work there are spending more time on line getting more radicalized by these online conversations that we're happening and just feeling frightened and scared for the future, as many of us were during this pandemic. So all that can be. and together, and then you get this invitation from the present to calm the DC. On this day and depending on the groups online. Some people thought they were going to see a big celebration where Panzer Tromp was able to somehow overturn the result then reveal a big winfried trump and they would have this great moment of glory. Other people were just for

trading with the results of the election and wanted to air that frustration, as we typically do. I know this happen when Trump was elected as well. There were not my president rallies and that's perfectly allowable, but what, It is all of this kind of brood together to create this really intense moment that was really triggered by Trump and push and especially on the day of literally telling people to go to the capital, and so it was kind of inevitable that, with all those factors combined, something like this was gonna happen. Her team let's turn to your. You read an article four. The website that was up over the weekend, titled storming the. U S. Capital was about maintaining white power in America, so talk about some of the forces that play there. I think everything the cayley is exactly right and just compounded by whiteness. That's the thrust

The argument I making and the peace highlighting a lot of social science research over now many many years that show cases the great lakes the white folks go to to maintain Rachel Power and for listeners less familiar with this bit of literature were often drifts dared nowadays and how're white folks, responding to changing demographics and the country I just want to highlight a couple pieces scholarship that I shall, in the peace, starting with the more by actually Georgina Professor Duke University ro and waited in politics that the title of a bucket, Zimbabwe in EU politics she knows that we are seeing this increasing salience of white identity for a long time for why. being white was like being a fish in water like what the hell's waters, where I spend my time as the norm, but as we have seen, these changing demographics

drowning of America, changing cultural shift etc brought about by him? We should perhaps a move to the left undone domains. We ve seen whiteness become a more salient feature of these white folks identity and the work that it culminates with the ascendancy of Donald Trump, whom Tatars because provocatively the first white president to the White House, and what we are seeing is that these white folks are responding to rethink this backlash to what they perceive to be racial progress. On the one hand, changing demographics, as highlighted by cycle, just like Jane Richardson and Marine Craig, a we're seeing that why people in the face of increasing per carroty hold on power, taking great lays going to great lengths to maintain that power leads to showcase their frustration with the proceeds loss of that

our and I think that's what we saw at the capital and its- why we see a bunch of white folks and not a bunch of black eyebrows, those who too, there is no lived through a pandemic have been frustrated by economic downfall and all that we will see What can browse what's going out during the sort of thing, because all of this is compounded by whiteness, I'm curious. What are the forces that come together in white communities are, amongst particular white voters, that make them form political preferences around their white identity, verses. Other white voters who may not be as driven by white identity as a motivating political issue. That's a really great and there are some great work. by so psychologists Wilkins. I believe we shall cases this perception of a kinder reverse discrimination. This belief that white folks have this broad disadvantage in society, and this point

make a lot of sense to those of us who look at the objective reality and we say well why people we owe a great deal of power and all of these different spaces, but this has brought about by things like a league rhetoric has brought about by media. Let's showcasing the browning of America is brought about by conversations that legacy outlets. Like the times the highlights. This law of status and the sort of diner conversations with people highlighted how long have they been left behind its this language of grievance and disadvantage that his soul populated so much of the media scores it's been taken on by populist and full populist who attempt to jail

were energize base of supporters right. This is in part, a leak driven in, so we we have to attend to the kind of language that we hear from members of Congress or post on Fox NEWS who stood apparent, this language of loss in status deprivation, and so it's a confluence things that are coming together, but we can't discount the role of elite, the role of media, and this begins to trickle down, as it were, to these localised communities where you're hanging out and talking with white people. Even why people who are sometimes in this our goals that we move- and you hear this- and of language of loss or a sense that there is a kind of dis, empowerment that white people are experiencing in the country as they perceive this increase.

Status of racial and ethnic minorities? And of course, there are other folks more expert in the space, but we can't just count either the fact that this is likely genders in a particular way. We. seem to here at least anecdotally, when he's kind of feelings being expressed more often It appears by white men than by white women and that's not by happen sense either, because, alongside these perceptions of minority status, increase were also likely experiencing among white men, a sense that women people who have won spent is being secondary are now advancing as well, and so all of this is in part, a story about perceptions of lost, even if that those perceptions run counter to the objective reality that any sensible person will recognise. Looking at the world, I just want to know

really quickly that a lot of these online communities, especially the more savvy, far right and white, supremacist and white nationalist groups, take advantage of that very experienced a lot of white men are expressed they know that that's happening and they use that as kind of a hooked the men and say it or your feelings are valid. This is happening here, the enemy of the left, but we love you. We accept you we're here for you, come join this community and they didn't start off with the very extreme views. They start off with this place of understanding and acceptance which everybody is seeking. So that is one way that they take advantage of those feelings to try to lure people in and broaden their support base will, and I think the other thing did really striking about what we saw last week, but also what I think has just been brewing: birth, the entire term presidency and even before, then, is how tramp

spoken to all of these different groups that wouldn't necessarily identify with each other, don't necessarily think of themselves as having the same ideology, but his language of grievance and his people have described as like his willingness to say. The quiet part out loud has made those people feel scene and he's made them feel empowered and he's made them feel empowered to do something like invade another branch of government violently because they feel like that is what they need to do to take back their power, and I think two examples from my reporting that I've been thinking a lot about who is, one is white, christian nationalism and the other is the militia movement, and I think this evidence that there was presence from both of those strains at the riots. I mean, there's probably some overlap between those two movement threads, not necessarily a ton, but will you see with

with way. Christian nationalists naked. This fits really well and with what he was saying that it's you know it's not just about race, it's about the preservation of an entire social order that people see as fundamental to what it means to be american. So it's not just about America was founded as a white country, it was. America was founded as a white christian country, where people had certain places in the hierarchy and that's what America means. I think the gender pieces complicated because, yes, we saw or white men at the capital. Probably there also a lot of white women who you no more conservative, why women, who feel like they benefit from their place in this traditional social hierarchy, and that something is being taken away from them to buy a feminist movement and gender discrimination line? And you know all of those changes, and so from you know, has really spoken to people

Who, I think have Christian Nationalist, believes that we're not necessarily the main street among christian conservatives are worth the thing that was like set out loud and worth the most prominent leaders ten years ago and there's a long history and that movement of feeling Lake, when the order is upset, you have the right and maybe even the imperative, to take farms and go out and defend that order, and so then you look also at something like the militia movement, which I wrote. An article last fall with my colleague, Maggie Kurth, about how we should have got to this moment where from has managed to become this figure to people in the militia movement, which is very like programme pro individual liberty that he is this figure whose both of the government and not of the government, and so he can be in the house inciting an attack on another branch of government? and that's not inconsistent.

He is saying you know these: are your fundamental liberties go and protect yourself the whole ideology of the modern militia movement has to do. I mean there are many different strands to it and I am over simplifying grossly put you know a lot of it has to do with this idea that a fundamental part of being American is your ability to protect your own property, to take up arms and protect your family and protect your liberties, and so the point I'm trying to make an and cares what other folks think is Trump has spoken to a wide range of groups that I think all in some ways were on the fringes or perceived themselves to be on the fringes perceived themselves to have something taken. way from them, and also many of them have long histories and their movements of thinking that violence is an answer, and so that, I think, is one of the reasons that.

we ended up where we did on Wednesday and yet to some extent, link with the militias, peace that road? I was talking to experts last fall, who were saying, I think violence is coming. I don't know how this can end in violence, and so it was certainly obviously a shocking and we're still reeling, but this is something that I think has been brewing for, not just the past year. And not even just the past four years. The pay I'm curious about how you try to answer the question of. Why did this happen? To me? It's comes down to very reductive becomes comes down the Donald Trump it's like in twenty fifteen Nicky Hayley in up and coming Republican. Her big act was to have the confederate flag taken down from the capital in South Carolina in the twenty twenty one of trumps finalized to veto a bill to rename military bases whose name certain, better generals. I don't think there's a world in which Donald Trump doesn't run and then I think, a maybe.

What will we be? Always? Maybe even a Scot Walker? Tattoos, like anything need. The other figures who were running of considering running would have been done. Amenable to white nationalist movements, white entity, politics, some of them closer. Some of them were further away, but the fact that this person, whose first acts were to hire, see Van and Stephen Miller to work in the White House, people who would never have been, senior advisers to Scott Walker, TED Khrushchev, Bush, Nicky, gaily, etc like particular man with his inclination becoming the american president, was, How can I think the story is to some extent he. One. The primary the Republican Party then get behind him because they wanted to win the election and then at every turn, is but a choice at some point, Hoboken Party, was no longer defending trump. They were defending themselves because each week

this year they get more invested in defending tromp to the point where people who Obviously, no the Joe Biden, one Pennsylvanian Arizona, feel like big in either say Donald Trump One or I've been foolish for the last four years and I must uprising, we Dave wind for the first as opposed to the second and so on Think that is what it is like heavy Some one leader, your party, who constantly requires you to sort of a film loyalty oaths. They don't involve telling them this is where we are like the fact that all those republican House members would not sorted like I've known Kevin Mccoy before a long time. He started off any person who wanted to move the Republican Party and include more minority's in the fact that he ended up where he is defending Trump, being Trump's threat for the Trump biggest loyal. This is this, shocking that maybe that's kind of where the party is gone, because tunnel Trump has taken the party there and I did

on some level. All these factors contributing contributed to, but I think, Donald Trump GIS has changed America yeah. I think that this whole thing There are many elements at play that kind of came together, but none of them on their own would have tipped it over the edge without Trump drop is necessary for this to happen and every step of the way Trump had the power to The escalate this so had he accepted the election result. Our election I or a couple days later, when we finally have the results, and had made at this. Why? about election fraud, but his follow, what a believed him and there may be- would have in some way where's or conspiracy theories, but it wouldn't been anywhere near as widespread as it was an all telling them to come to DC. That was trumps, decision going on speaking in front of them and firing them up on the day. That was trumps, move and all of those things inspired those people to do what they did

storm the capital- and I know from in these communities on line and am reading what they post that a lot of them. Don't trust anybody except Trump, so he called so much sway and so much power that he had the ability to de escalate does and prevent it. Just by doing what a normal precedent would do and conceding defeat thinking? Is we ve been talking about some work that one of my graduate students is doing in the very early stages of this work, but setting out examined whether we can capture. the body politic, something like a white now was orientation and the fact is that scholar,

who study raise a new study whiteness, even including my friend, actually Georgina. We saw it stopped at the most extreme manifestations of whiteness, which I think we're on display the capital right, there's a kind of investment and whiteness that is so deeply entrenched. that it would cause you to enter the capital under threat of stable police violence and and shot out. Where is my pet? There's a kind of that's been in. Maintaining that kind of power is closer to something like a kind of white nationalism that today we ve been a scholars, is really slow to capture in part, because we thought I think, that Can I ask why people whether there why national listen get any citizens, your answer,

now began to any great lanes to devise strategies to do that. What is a graduate student minded? This review, as some of the early findings here, has set out to try and capture this orientation, and so what she's done he's taken these items that were once used to capture back that's all right what we might think over the more legitimate kind of ideology and their items like black people's shop in blackens. Or then there's be media that targets block consumers etc, and we can think about. How is legitimately oppressed racial group? that kind of ideology might take home, and so what my students Ellen Shapen did was just take. This set of questions so about the word black with the word. Why and do we observe that white people are willing to take on These kind of white Nationalist believes that express a kinder believes that white people

It had media targeted them that they should have the kind of advantages that that would look something like nationalism. The long short of it is in these early findings. We see a significant share why demanded willing to say this in the pilot data about twenty percent- twenty to thirty percent of white boy willing to take on a some sort of these beliefs and is bound up with the sense of eraser this, since the white people are being not just disadvantage economically, but there being removed from the Centre of american life that people behind the scenes are conspiring right cons. irish to erase whiteness and this kind of racial eyes conspiratorial believes. That is one that I think we're going to have to attend to a bit more because it's the kind of thing that can force people to travel from across the country.

Did you see a storm, the capital as they did? This is really dangerous, but I think the scariest part to Paris point it is about Donald Trump. Rising, one question we should be thinking about is like this is us disdain posts, Donald Trump, and I think, unfortunately, it does and that I think, is what really scary about american politics right now, I think is important. I want to say one other thing, and this is something that I think is not yet been studying the social science research. I truly thinking from what you, the republican discussions that I hear the June in July, was scared we do a lot of Republicans. It was like, in this instance, they saw that allow people who are liberal, don't you want to return to Barack Obama's America? They see it different America, where there are reparations where the police are really question harshly about what do whether there will be that our police forces the movement of June and July, suggested there was a huge yawning for a different kind.

America, where the leaders of merit, our not just one black person, but many black voices were the policy Choices are entirely different. What we do now- and I think that also on the right Harry radicalizing effect as well as not just the Jew. Biden, my win, but woe distorted, Eo C b alone. Bernie Sanders that kind of thing. Becoming in their power to seen some of that over the last speakers. Republicans are saying I think journey Mr Viola and exacting like this, which is like. Basically, these rioters were terrible, just like the ones in June and July Firstly, these movements are completely different in the people programme June or July. A we're, not I do overturn election violently and killed members of Congress and be the These greeted them with denied written but are treated them very He aggressively in a way that it be protesters on Wednesday were not treated or the people and we re not protesters the mob on Wednesday was not treated, but I think there is a radical opposition. The democratic Party

is moving, any life were direction and people without Barack Obama was too was. Was you know, a far left crazy person, not shrewd reasonable. what did I do There is a sense of the world in which a YO see is a promise. respected voices in Amerika? I dont want to live in you did is not just shared by White National is but a lot people are just conservative on politics and I think that division and fear that we're seeing really everywhere is one of the reasons that you know it's a real question of lake. Ok, what is Biden, Do about this and lake when Trump is no longer in the White House. We don't know what he's gonna? Do we don't know how his supporters in a respond, we dont know if there is going to be more violence. But this sort of idea that we can kind of like pivot to unity. I mean there's like first of all the question of theirs.

Fighting of precedent of we ve had president's engaging wrong doing before and when they leave the White House, it's better to let them kind of fade into the background, and it helps the country facilitate healing, and I think there can and should be questions about whether accountability for what Donald Trump has done over the course of his presidency is whether Americans want something different? I don't think we should assume that this is a situation like we saw with Clinton or Nixon and even when Nixon got part, that was really controversial. Exciting. That's one question of like what what does it mean for how Biden approaches, questions of accountability for it but then also lake. Our leaders address the fact that people have arrived in such different places and that a significant number of Americans are increasingly will

to condone political violence? I mean that's, not a reality. That's going to change after January twentieth, and some of this like it is one of the problems with this unity discourse, as I think it just ignores the basic reality that Trump was in power for four years, whether you think this could have happened with her without Trump. You know set that aside. It did happen and now what is like a unity and healing look like at this moment. I dont know. I want to add a little bit to this. You know you mentioned: are Americans now seeing violence as a legitimate answer, there's a piece out in the world in post today by Liliana, Mason and Nathan, Como with attracts Americans openness to violence as an answer, and they see it increase over trumps. Ten. in office to now about twenty percent. That say that it's at least allow

he'll be ok and as an across various surveys to use violence. A lot of people have tried to make sense of why this has happened and something that Perry mentioned on the podcast last Wednesday was that the rhetoric here has reached a fever pitch and particularly on the republic inside right trumps rally on Wednesday. He said quote: if you dont fight like hell, you're, not gonna, have a country anymore rate George on Monday, he said: quote America, as you know, will be over, and it will never, I believe, be able to come back again. That's trump, but you didn't care particularly different messages from the senators Purdue and Leffler during their campaigns in Georgia? You heard very fever, pitched pitches too public and voters there. Essentially life. As you know, it is on the line and you take one step further back like what is the environment, the system structurally. That makes it up here, two Republicans to campaign to voters that way right, because a lot of these perceptions, alot of voters

Savior is coming from the signals and the messages that they hear from the people that they trust and, of course President Trump did not win. The national popular vote in two thousand seen we ve seen he didn't even have majority support. He had relatively plurality support in his primary early on in two thousand and sixteen we ve seen that in a lot of the legislature is and even in Congress there are things like Joe in answering that need to majorities that are not actually won through a majority support and so listen who have wasn't apologized for awhile know that I'm really interested in these structural issues from the gerrymandering project to the primaries project that we did earlier on in twenty twenty. But there is also this dynamic at play between the primaries between gerrymandering between the Electoral college, the structure of the Senate. That makes it politically appealing to make these kind of extreme arguments

and so there's all kinds of people that we can place blame on here and look at as coming together to create this environment there, the individual there, the online forums there's president trumped himself: there are the politicians, the white nationalism, the structure. of power in America. There is also the, actual political structure in which everyone is behaving, and I It's important to look at that structure as well. In all of this If anyone wants to respond to that feel free nationals as a emil you're starting to get to the point of what happens next. Where do we go from here and I'm curious? what people think it doesn't seem likely in my mind that a lot of those structures that create geopolitical incentives will change curious if anyone thinks I'm wrong on that, but from the dead things you ve laid out from the militia the online forums trump himself, a feeling of white grievance. What happens next and how do we make sure this never happens again? I just wanted to jump at a given point about the institutional better

So I'm a political psychologist. I think a lot about emotions feelings all that stuff, but you can't about any allow? This really important point that Republicans increasingly realize. I think that they can send to power thou a democratic majority? Without being a lighted by a majority of constituents, and this is of course we see that that the state level. We also see it, of course, with the presidency, and so I think what that means is that look. If you can look at the world recognise the institutional structures, the disadvantage, Democrats, a system that is designed, undimmed ethically and say. While there is no real utility and trying to expand the base or create messaging brings in a diverse constituency. Instead, we can focus on a base of supporters,

Who is burdened with all of those grievance and it leads to the kind of extreme ie and rhetoric, and in behavior? I think that we saw the capital and I am so happy raised. The point is, if Republicans had asserted by for a broader constituency They have to be more measured and their approach to politics because they don't have to their able to engage in this way, this and often violent rhetoric. That gives rise to the kind of thing that we saw. The camels that's agree point, and I mean I think it's important not to ignore the fact that what's happening in the backdrop of a lot of this is that we had an election year in a pandemic where it was necessary for, like logistical and public health reasons, to make it easier for people to vote, but that is

thing that the Republican Party has been trying pretty systematically to do the opposite, they been trying to make it harder for people to vote, and you know it's not a coincidence that this is all happening in the decade after the Supreme Court gutted crucial section of the Voting Rights ACT, and you know it some data conversation that I hope we were having a no gale and you're gonna do great reporting s going into redistricting this year, and even through conversations about we ve had about who had counted in the census? Data that that make up the basis of lake Who is it as a person in this country actually counts in terms of representation, So I think a lot of this is about fundamental questions of easy Republicans, not wanting to make it easier for people to vote even in a pandemic and in red states. Parrys done a lot of gray reporting on this, not just making it easier in some cases making it harder and-

oh, the structural issues are so important and it's something that's been baked in for so long that I don't even know which peace it is to talk about. First question for Kelly, Let me be others well like how big a part of this would happen. Whimsically, that is social media and then, secondly, with taking into account. How do you view twitter and other social me? His decision to ban drop? I think the internet at large played an important role here. hard. To imagine that whole events taking place without the ability to organise and plan and get fired on all the platforms wasn't just one the space. You know, people were discussing this, I'm parlor, but they were on Tik Tok, their own red at Facebook, Twitter everywhere, Instagram, you know, planning and preparing organizing rides, like the whole thing, was set up online and then had very important railway

consequences. They think you know a lot of the conversations in rhetoric that happens online Big chunk of it is people venting frustration, and going along with the crowd posting, but the price One is that you only need a few hundred a few dozen people to be taking it seriously for people to get hurt and killed as we saw, and so that's it product of what's happening online, and now we're in this really interesting space where the relevant. Since that are some social media. Aside, spanning Trump Amazon took the servers parlour offline, so parlor is no longer around and It's really interesting moment because there's a lot of conversations: Burundi Platform, you have a story, that's gonna come out this week about whether de platform in political works that this is a unique case, because it's the presence in the United States. It's not our Jones. Talking about the watering frogs gay. This is the leader of our country still, and so it is. The interesting to see how that all shakes up, but I think it gets to underline

an issue which some of the experts I spoke to pointed out as well, which is that we, currently in a state where there's not a whole lot of regulation. Around hate speech online around inside once online and so on. In lieu of that, we ve left it up to the sea, uses these companies that profit from hate disagreements online and other their lot that decision where their weighing the profits that they earn verses like their reputation, which at this point tipped the other way and they end up banning trump and going that way. But is really the solution that we want where we want to leave it in the hands of Silicon Valley to make these decisions sort of on our behalf. Or do we want to set up some framework that we as a nation, and decide for ourselves of what is acceptable and what is not, and then I think that that would action allow for more free speech because people when beaches, black or white, we will be able to know where this falls?

not leaving it in the hands of just a few executives. It's really troublesome time, but it would be interesting to see what the ramifications of it are ya This is really a really the problem, because on the one hand we know from Liliana Nathan's work that the of a leads matter right and so deep platform. president, whose citing violence instead, quieting his supporters. probably a good move, at least in the short run, but then the second class and this isn't my area But one of the things that it makes me think about is what happens when people feel silenced and one domain or anyone space coral was an outgrowth important right. I think people. feeling like these other outlets were quieting. Them were silencing, then So the long run consequences of this, I think, are difficult to square that it's good to depart.

ones and what inciting violence? What happens when people feel that they can't say things in this space? do they then go and express more extreme rhetoric and other spaces, and so I think that's attention at least that I've been thinking about it, yeah? I know that gab, which is another free speech, so they say social media say that a lot of far right users were already on has said. they ve been gaining like ten thousand users an hour and claim that they had half a million new users sign up yesterday when Parliament taken down so there's of different things away way. Here. It's not as simple as bans and all the white supremacist go away So I realizing that, while I had planned for this package to also get into a deeper discussion about how to stand some of these things that my

have to be another podcast, because there are a lot of interlocking forces at play here, and I want to make this black ass go on for two hours and we will have other things that you have to do. But let us leave this here. What are you thinking about? What happens next and whether this has the effect of sporting, more violence or whether has a cooling, a fact and people say well, like we ve, really what things get out of hand. We need to take a step back and show out. Does anyone have a sense of which path at least in the near term, is pursued, think what concerns me is that there is a possibility for both. You know. We saw to some extent trump real back. Some of us comments and condemn the actions and sort of half concede to the election results and there are certainly some people who were in d c- that just wanted to peaceful protests that I think we're

shocked and disturbed by the attack on the capital. But at the same time, the lack of parts for law enforcement and the ease with which this mob guy into the building and took over. This was not very well organised and could have been a lot worse and that more scenario might be brew. now, where more organized more violent groups saw that easy, it was and could now be plodding like ok, Wolf. Do that think about what we can do. So that's concerning. I guess my worry is as long as the message on the right and far right, particularly, is the She was stolen, but don't be too mean about it and don't protest. much now. If people Jimmy Only think the election was stolen in their votes were not counted, they're, probably going to be motivated, be pretty aggressive and maybe the violent and contesting it so my biggest work

The message on the right has to change to the reality that Donald Trump lasted until it doesn't. I think we're due to continue is what is idea that the government is illegitimate. Do there was a huge plotting? the governor of Michigan a few months ago. This is not a random incident. We saw the capital as long as the message is, local leaders who support Kobe restrictions, who are Democrats who were, Stacy wish there was mail in voting as long as it is, they are ill legitimate holders. Power who are taking away you're freedoms, I think you're going to continue to have violence around. Neither the message on the right has just has to be something beyond dont commit vial. was, but these people are taking away. Your freedoms is not consistent and it has to change. I think that's exactly right. I think the thing to watch what folks on the right,

you and say I mean the real problem about thinking about any positive then on. This is the way this ain't gonna, you are right that this sort of deep investment and whiteness and why power and white dominance is concerned, has been long standing and the EU. That any moment of progress for racial minorities were black, for in particular, has Matt with this kind of racial backlash from white people, and so I, All of these lines about the election are meant to further Idea that this power of whiteness is being ill legitimately taken away- and I think two members of Congress on the right and other political and media elite really tell why people have a community meeting of sorts says this and a crazy. I think we can expect that whiteness will continue to preserve the kind

violet problems, but we observe this past week. So I want to be optimistic, but whiteness always frustrates the kind of optimism. I'm not sure what I have to add to what my colleagues have said, except that Perry. I can't stop thinking about the plot against Gretchen, Whittemore last fall and how that happened and there was so much else happening in reserve moved on from it and yeah. I mean, I think the republican message has to change I also wonder what the message has to be to turn down the heap on this, because some of the reaction even to trump telling people to go home last week were

does this sense of betrayal at Trump I dont know what would happen if republicans decided to give it on this and Trump conceded that he lost. I think it will take a lot of the air out of this for sure I guess my other fear is. It is not going to be easy to put that to fish back in the tube with this, and I genuinely feel uncertain about What needs to happen as we move forward and so again, like you, a key, and I think my impulses always to want to be optimistic, but I just feel very uncertain about the future right now or a wall. I think that's a fair place to leave things, because I don't have the answer either. so thank you so much Perry. Amelia became an Kelly fur gathering today to discuss the Thanksgiving things happening, scale, an excuse, My name is Galen droop Tony chow. Isn't the virtual control room Clare Gary Curtis? Is

audio editing and get in touch. My e mailing us at podcast that five thirty eight dot com. You can also, of course, tweeted us with any questions or comments if you're a fan of the show, leave us a reading or review in the apple pie, cast store or tell someone about us thanks for listening Her