We haven't, swings dates, major infractions or outright fraud. If we arrive About the fraud. Joe Biden can't be president I've seen too much pieces of different evidence so far. That shows that, at this point I would be ok with repo now has nobody's dead man and says if you're gonna lie be believable about it, because you do not have a hundred thirty. Eight thousand votes come in thirty. Five thousand of them come in for Vida there's one though let us fraudulent enough. For me, this is on a research project, I'm not looking for statistically significant stuff, I'm looking for one evidence of voter fraud, The six thousand year old, difficult you can take it down there quit dragged me. Another real action and election was stolen from us

hello and welcome to the five pretty politics podcast. I am given to this week six months since Crow Trump extremists attacked the. U S: Kapital, attempting to stop Congress from certifying the electoral votes in the twenty twenty election. It was an attempt to overturn a free in fair american collection with the people involved in the eternal, wrongly believed that it was not free warfare and according to pulling from Ipsos murders? months later, a majority of Republicans, still believed the false conspiracy theory that the election was still today. We're gonna dig into why people believe conspiracy theories and theories surrounding the election in politics. In this case, the through line, doesn't seem so complicated. Why do begins, believed that the election was stolen. Well, then, president, drunk the leader, of their party along with influential there is on the right- told them that it was that's all

what social scientists have a lot more to say about? Who is liable to believe those theories to what extent they might believe them and then also why and how they take root? And, lastly, what can be done to counter their attractiveness here with me to talk about all of that is five: thirty politics and tuck reporter keenly Rogers hello and welcome tailing high thanksgiving. So, let's start with the basics from where you sit, what role did conspiracy theories play in catalyzing the attack on the capital on January sex? There is one. Other thing is, if not the biggest factor I mean Trump, obviously was a major player in this, both on the day sort of asking everybody up, but also ahead of that playing

and the big lie constantly repeating these claims about a fractional election that warrant based on reality, and so you have a huge cohort of people genuinely believe that there was something wrong with this. Election was not done in a fair and democratic way and wanted to air their grievances about that. To protest that as any American, I think would if they genuinely believe that something like this had happened, and then you adding to that all the more mentality of the day, the actual that trump literally telling him to go to the capital and then some instigators that were on the ground from militia groups and more far right groups that kind of her pushing everything foreign, it kind of seem inevitable. You know a lot of people who report on this. Like myself, my colleagues in this area, we all were kind of waiting to see what would happen. I don't have the name when predicted

It would go quite that far but doubtless sort of what I had my eyes on that day, I was certain that this crowd was gonna, get unruly in that something bad happened, obviously should, according to regroup, shares borders. Point that I mentioned at the top. Fifty six percent of Republican said that a twenty twenty or much outcome was the result of illegal voting war election rigging and, depending on how you ask that question, you can go slightly different results. It got up to sixty percent in this particular poor. If you asked directly if people thought that the election was stolen, that's for Republicans and that similar to what has been since the election so say somewhere between fifty and sixty percent of

begins, believed this on January sex, that's a lot of people, so why did some people take the leap from the general belief in this conspiracy theory to showing up to try to violently overturn an election ray? I think part of that has to do is a big gap that believe some people might have thought something was wrong, or maybe they just want happy with the outcome of the elections that yeah probably was stolen or something versus people who felt this believe quite deeply, more fully entrenched possibly with other conspiracy theories circle around it like he went on and that really motivated them to show up that day and the like. I said I really do think that it was celebrated on the day of so people who probably had planned to actually Trespassin and invade the capital and become an insurrections that day got caught up in the moment and that the energy of the mob and everything that was happening around them to take the next steps you ve done reporting for five. Thirty, eight that books, depths of belief, as you mentioned, can you details about like how much of the country really believes

in the queue and conspiracy theories. What percentage of the country really strongly believes that they know that this election was ready? It's really heard the sulphur q and on first of all, because it such a big umbrella conspiracy, and so there are parts of it that a person might believe without believing the whole thing or other parts of that like us, understood that difference in depth, so somebody may be watched a Youtube video arena, Facebook posed and believes in that part of the conspiracy theory, but isn't spending all day on Cuban on forums or in a baking breadcrumbs as they call it where there looking at the key posts and trying to decipher what they met. In relating to current events, that's a big spectra right between those kinds of people, so tardy capture that, in an easy pole, question pollsters have tried talking about belief. Specifically, they ve tried just talking about Q straight up. Like do you,

leaving Q and aren't you Philly within its. We end up with a range of answers in that way, and they also have people who might be just kind of taking the password bolsters, who think it. That's kind of funny thing to answer two: there are people who may be dont fully believe it, but it's kind of a line of their general feelings, some there's a phenomenon calling oppressive responses where people answer something that they dont mean literally, but that kind of a line of how they feel others upon twenty. Sixteen, where they asked voters if they would rather have a giant meteor hit the earth than either Donald Trump. Hillary Clinton win and a lot of people sent that they prefer the giant meteor. Obviously, nobody actually wants the earth would be destroyed by Dr Meteor, put a kind of capture the their feelings rate, about dissatisfaction with the candidates in the field and so that

phenomena can also be captured. So I think it's hard to pinpoint exactly my reader based on the appalling and just what I see that the fraction of people who are deep in that's like genuinely wholeheartedly believe it and spend all their time engage with. It is probably quite small, but I dont think that that means, if they're not significant and then that wider said a fringe all it when people believe in it to some extent as much larger and also concerning problematic. You talked about expressive responses and maybe that's part of some people saying that they believe queuing, aren't conspiracy theories. We brought on a package before about the percentage of Americans that believe this kind of stuff, a p r. I pull put it somewhere between fifteen and twenty percent

that was not actually mentioned in Cuban on when you and gets mentioned in poles, its closer to like single digits, three to five percent. Something like that. Do we see the same thing happening with the belief that the election was stolen amongst the broader republican cohort, in that people say that they think the election was stolen because that's their general partisan response and it's kind of expressive. They may not seriously believe the actual conspiracy theories. Oh there's definite bit of that happening, but the belief that big lion, election being stolen is much more widespread than he went on and, I think genuinely out by a higher percentage, Republicans especially

the degree to which they think fraud occurred or how they think it occurred. That varies, but there's a very strongly held belief that something about the twenty twenty election was not free and fair and needs to be investigated and looked at in some way. Image of the three wine is kind of clear here between Trump and other inferential people. On the right and this belief, people were just saying straight up at this election was rate. Trump was saying straight after this election was red. I'm curious, though, how do broader conspiracy theories start, and it did this take kind of the normal course. When we look at other conspiracy, various there's a few things that are often common among conspiracy theories that people choose to follow in their sort of like now get of truth or bits of truth kind of spanked within it, and those can be conduits for people So I know a lot of people with you and I were kind of drawn into it because of the Jeffrey Epstein case, which is a real thing. that happened, you don't you is really charged and

or reading about that and then serve came across other claims of of similar accusations against other big names and fell into the wider world view of cuban on. But their entry point was a piece of truth and real news of his being reported. and another thing that's often common is it does sort of a line with how you're already feeling or thinking so you maybe already have a distrust of the government or maybe you're unhappy with how the election turned out. You wanted Trump to win and he Didn'T- and so this now with this kind of idea that maybe there's something fishy going on is really enticing omit, maybe the guy. I wonder when really didn't win and something else happened that was wrong. Let me look into this more and see if that makes any sensing it. Similarly, with birth tourism, you know a lot of people were, about Iraq, Obama being president and by trying to

credit hand, basing who isn't really born in American. That's a convenient lie to cling onto like. Ok, he's not really president because of this thing that I have decided to believe based on no evidence and in fact, contrary evidence digging a little deeper here. You recently wrote a piece for the five thirty eight website that looks out why people fall for conspiracy theories, and you mentioned that parts of the theories might be enticing or back up. You know some pretty system, beliefs or desires like in this case that Donald Trump would have actually won the election, but a kind of goes deeper than that right, because not all Republicans believe the conspiracy theory surrounding the auction, it's between fifty and sixty percent. So there's plenty of Republicans who don't believe that and then also, if you look at independence in this, if those workers pole

we sixteen percent of independent who believe that so lots of people there, who also are necessarily prime by partisanship dont, believe us are. There are certain things that are unique to people that are prone to conspiratorial thinking. There are, I think I would take a step back first to look at with this conspiracy amp with most conspiracy theories. People also aren't just necessarily taking trumps word for it that he is a very powerful influence, no doubt, but for a lot of these people, they looked at what they believed to be evidence. Okay, so there are things that they seen dozens and cases, sometimes hundreds of peace of quota, but evidence that have been d that all have actual like real explanations behind them. But if you only see the the sort of original evidence can seem really crazy and it can be very persuasive argument in simple: their residents are now

of cases in Michigan. Simple. Do this thing where, if somebody comes in that has registered, but their birthday isn't Mustang, they will put in like a temporary. Placeholder, that's just one or one or one, which is generally first, nineteen o one so we went up with is a lot of voters who are allegedly important: nineteen o one which obviously they are, and this guy misconstrued. Many note was reported on websites and her people too. Think about it. There were affidavits from poor workers who were there, who were seen these birthdays pop up one screens and were confused about it, and it was weird to them and they thought these are fake people, these a faint data. These are dead people, loading and a kind of sounds like that. If you don't understand the process behind it and how that works and that it's just a placeholder and then they go and fix it later, if you don't that second half of the information. It seems we're right, and so, if you get hundreds of pieces of information like that, it's really persuasive and then the only thing that's countering it is mainstream media who are going to in fact,

Henderson debunking you dont trust, mainstream media. Then you end up feeling very swayed by more than just troms point of view. You feeling you ve seen evidence that proves this conspiracy theory. On top of that this peace, I wrote for five. Thirty eight looked at some of the cognitive trades that, if you have higher or more of these specific treaty, might be a little more prone to believing conspiracy theories and they have done studies to find the correlation between these trade, but their traits of all us sometimes have or haven't varying degrees and they're. Just kind of these cognitive cork, Seasick short cuts that our brains is to make sense the world and to help us form, opinions and ideas, and so things like seeing patterns where there are no patent, I mean human brains, make

happens all the time. It's what we see faces in the inn, appliances on the front of cars and it's how were able to make sense of the world scene patterns is necessarily a bad thing. But if you take it to the extreme, then you end up with, like the court bored with all the bread yarn connecting all the crazy ideas, because in your mind, there's a pattern there, and so we get their second treats. It might make people more prone to believing conspiracy, he's, an duress correlations there. But it's not the only aspect of whether or not you going to fall for something you are. You wrote about several of these traits and it was really interesting reading, for I encourage listeners to go check it out on the five thirty eight website and there is an actual tests for readers listeners to see like how prone they are to this kind of conspiratorial thinking. But of course we have to competing. Things are right. There are environmental factors where we have the leader of the

having party president Trump, some parts of rightly media, encouraging people to believe something, and then you also may have personality traits, and things like that when you, away, environmental factors verses personal traits, whereas the weight of the evidence which is more important for building these conspiracy theories and having them spread. I think environments deftly more important because being a few major somebody who's super trying to believing conspiracy theories, but they live alone in a shack and the words like they're, not gonna, believe any stock as they don't, across that they might come up with their allege, support something but they're not going to be engaged with this kind of mainstream narrative. That's coming out of Donald Trump and breaking news and on social media so that environmental influence is really important by the same right if you are pretty, little clawing you're, not promptly conspiratorial. Thank you, but you just getting hit with a barrage of what scene. Like evidence and arguments and people telling like this happened, it's gonna be a lot further food resists, no matter what you're sort of natural tat

its are so. I think that environment place are really important role and we should also keep in mind the social media networks, the way that they make money. The way operators by keeping people engaged, and we now hope you know we ve had people at work. The Facebook and Instagram and Twitter say that people are more engaged when things are controversial. certain kinds of content is gonna, be promoted by the algorithm to keep people more engaged in. So it's just as world war. this information, and you agnor that really powerful, persuasive people at present. Major figures on the right making the same claims one about news network all these things, it's very hard to resist. I think believing at least to some degree these claims that are being made talking about environmental factors and the different ideas that are out there in the world that people by believe

What's the relationship between conspiracy theories and white supremacy, we saw a white supremacist on display on January, sex at the capitol flies, clothing, etc. These their overlap there, that has a history yeah, absolutely the once apprentices movement in the United States and the late actively white, supremacist individuals and groups and NEO Nazis a lot of times when they talk about. This really seems like the conspiracy theories that are becoming more popular, is a useful tool for them and kind of a means to an end of getting people round up and fearful and preparing for what they see is like an impending race war, that's genuinely their worldview and they often don't believe or they'll, make fun of our or disengage. With things like you, and I were they, they don't even like trout, necessarily that much but

These conspiracy theories often fit neatly into their a broader agenda of trying to get white people to feel frightened about changes about feeling. Like things are not the America that they are used to, and you know the whites premises have a neat answer for why that is so, it's a very useful tool for them, and you know it monitor some of these groups or service level. Once again, until agreements of, and they discuss this kind of thing, and they talk about trying to learn and people who are already thinking conspiratorially, because it really makes it easier than to sell them their worldview. On top of it. I want to talk a little bit more about the spread of these conspiracy theories, and maybe we can even be done to stop them, but first today's podcast is brought you buy better help. Life is full of stress. it doesn't matter who you are. Your wife is probably stressful. You may not be feeling down and now or depressed, but if your stresses high your temper shorter than usual or even if you're starting to feel,

strain in any of your relationships, you'd probably use the chance to unload better help is customize online therapy that offers videophone and even live chat sessions with you. Therapist she'd off to see anyone on camera. If you dont want to its much more affordable than in person therapy, and you can start communicating with your therapist in under forty eight hours unless the stressors and get some unbiased feedback you'd be pretty surprised at what you might gain from it see. If it's four year commercial support for the five thirty politics, podcast is by better help and our listeners get ten percent of their first month at better help. Dot com, slash five, three eight: the number is not the letters. That's better help b e t, T, R, HD, lp dot com, slash five, three, eight.

Today's podcast is brought to you by rumble on dot com. Do you have a motorcycle atv, or even a truck that sitting in your garage that you ve been waiting to sell with rumble on dot com? You can easily turn your unused vehicle into cash in merits. Rumble on dot com will give you a cash offer for your vehicle and pick it up for free anytime anywhere. They can even financer next Harley Polaris Yamaha and even more if you're just looking to upgrade see what rumble on can do for you by visiting rumble on dot com that are you and be out e o and dot com fast bikes, faster cash? There are all kinds of conspiracy theories. Some of them are pretty innocuous like whether now I believe that the United States landed on the moon, monotonous, sorry, we have now been given influence on whether an eye peace we participate in american democracy. We,

They are not innocuous when these conspiracy theories can lead to violence and disruption. How do you stop them? I dont know that we have a good answer yet about how is This one of the biggest barriers I see is this erosion of trust in institutions, especially the news, media and journalism thank. You said with the big lie, for example, one of these like pieces of evidence and been bounden and checked by journalists and pick up the phone and call the people in charge and figure she's going on, if you dont trust journalists or you don't trust the people in charge that they're calling that fool structure of holding up the truth and keeping his brown in reality falls apart, and so without that, it's really scary could anything goes in and you just go. Believe what our life, it's, your narrative, so one thing having toying with a lot is our role as journalists and what we can do to try to help the first building that transport up again, I think a lot about how we could be more transparent with our approach.

That's what it is. We deal because for so long we enjoy this level of trust that we don't have to show our work. Always you know it was a people's trust. Us we ve got more job reported outright and people believe. Although Paden and now people are interesting estimated gets. Hopefully we shall have a sausage is made a little bit and explain that when I am choosing a pole, I dont use Nepal out of thin air, and I dont use one data point from one pulled: a try and hang a story awful. Then, when I talked to experts you know I talked to more than one expertly hear what they have to say, and I talk to people that I dont even quotas story, but that informer reporting is all the stuff that goes on. The people aren't aware of that. I think, is helpful, just sort of slipped the current a little bit and maybe build up some of that trust and there's a rolled play among social media

others changes that I think could and should be made to make this information less prominent and less appealing on these networks. I dont know that they will have much motivation to do that without some kind of government oversight that the UK into questions of free speech and government can and cannot and should not do so this out in his answer- and I also think ACT having more clear response from trust, elected officials. If trunk came out- and I was wrong- There was no tomfoolery the election as free and fair and by Mr President, that when, events everybody, but that would go very far show on four

in an environment where we cannot necessarily rely on elected officials to do what you just said do things like D Platt, forming work as Romania, where, for President Trump filed suit this week against social media companies, that barred him from their platforms because of largely January sex, does kicking someone who's instigating, conspiracy theories off of a platform work. Yes, we are definitely works. I mean their studies that show that the platform for large works and you can just see the trumps influence diminished somewhere as soon as he was no longer find these platforms and that that spread the reach of his message. diminish. Even now, we will be supporting a press releases he's now doing these rallies and doing his little come back toward whenever you want to call it,

He still getting a message out there, it's much more diminished by not having these mainstream platforms and it's not reaching people that are already in the thick of it in a telegram group that is very interested in what he has to say, and it's going to share every single message. Fears are more of a regular rightly American than just uses, facebooking gardener information from his twitter feed. That's much former do now, and so that influences reduced. I think that that's deftly made a difference, as I imagine the percentage of republican, true bereave, that the election was stolen is about the same in the most recent pulling that we have, as it was shortly after the election, so it seems like for now this conspiracy theory has lasted these six months How durable do you think it is and how durable have other conspiracy theories? But I didn't you a story, I'm just looking at the big lion compared to birth tourism and of birth, listen tells us anything like this is not going anywhere, because it was an increase

only durable believe that every time looking a piece of information came out like a bummer, releasing his long from birth certificate, belief that he wasn't born in America when did the little bit, but then I would come back and without back every time even don't jump was like. Oh God was wrong. Fine he's american. It did a little and then about again- and that was something that has a very clear single piece of evidence- that this proves that digital birth certificate that proves the election was stolen, their several thousands of tying pieces of information that have been devout, that somebody would have to adjust all those to them. We convinced- and they have to also believe that journalists are working in good faith and the like officials are working in faith. I can imagine this going away in a lobby, some erosion of it. I think There's a lot of faith being put in the ballot review. That was done, America County in Arizona and there are waiting those result. I think they're gonna be disappointed when

I note that the results are not trump wine and, whenever doesn't think cited, announced under that is not going to change anything. And so, though, be some people that stick their head of at that point and come away from it, but will be other people ledges double down. So I would be surprised at this significantly declines in any meaningful way over the next couple of years. What about legal repercussions for the insurrectionists? On January? Sixth, of course, law enforcement has been pursuing. People who took part in the attack on the capital does that act as a kind of deterrent that can act as a deterrent for actions, especially for people, maybe aren't so deep in their conspiracy, police and even then, just like something a little

fishing went on our. Maybe it wasn't totally reject the finest or wine does have people, I think, would be more swayed by the prosecution of insurrectionists. Then the really deepen the weeds folks, who have just decided that it was a false flag that the majority of people there were left with or undercover feds that were encouraging the attack to take place and that anyone that they can't trying claim isn't really right wing that has very clearly right wing. Will they just got caught up in it and sovereignly. Therefore, but most people were anti far more undercover FBI of six and that's what they conventions of them and again collecting YO pieces evidence of this is the right one person who was quite heavily involved in leaving broke one of the windows and has a very clear my history of being involved with some these rightwing conspiracy groves someday.

Its digging. Having covered that he's a Register Democrat, I like what the check it couldn't. You seem like a weird piece of information and its true he's register, as a Democrat and since then that's all the events they need. Clearly he was working for the decided just try and make the right when people look bad- and this was really really long gone over many years, but this is what they do right. They collect. These weird little bit info some of them true, some of them not. They tie them together and they create this world view, and it's gonna be really hard to shake that and in the fact that this guy is now getting charged. The conquerors you mentioned the partner of tearing down on the stuff could be reached within the party saying that the action was not stolen, in particular Donald Trump. Miss Ronald does not have that kind of sway over the Republican Party, but he said that the election was stolen, pretty clearly on the floor of the Senate. He still didn't supports investigating the attack on the capital, along with most other Republicans in the House and Senate. Why not? The report

We can congressional strategy seems to be let's get as much distant from us as possible when you don't blame, unlike. Why would you want to do this horrible moment that makes Europe partying your former president, look really bad it's not super preventing. You know the state level, there's a lot more of an embrace of this conspiracy about the election being stolen Trump has had not great things to say about meant Mcconnell, it's really easy for people to turn their backs, especially on Dc Republicans. They call them rhinos. They say that their part of the problem and they just kind of right them off. So I don't know that that has a lot of sway. What you need is a trump to come out and reverse course to really have that kind of influence. You mentioned that things are heated up, in fact, on the state level. What do you see? The role of conspiracy theories and our politics going forward. These a reach, his tree of conspiracy theories in politics in America,

That's always been there to varying degrees, we're a really interesting moment where it's all kind of come together and come to a heading and kind of fits into the direction that we're seeing the Republican Party turned to more broadly of a more populous shift. Culture. Wars I think conspiracy theories neatly within that they don't fit neatly in a policy based approach to politics. Our efforts, it is only going to get water suspicion. At local and state levels. Were you, you can kind of push the bar a little more. If you like, get away with more and it works in activating the baseness areas if you can here to say that they cannot panic in the Eightys and Ninetys, where a lot of the american public was convinced that local daycare centers were satanist that were abusing children in these rituals honours it will allow people believed that it was reported in the media. The media was a part of the problem. Then there was only a little aspect to it, though an enemy kind of

it away and evolved a bit and has some of the roots of Cuban I within it. But now there is a really like political aspect: birds! No longer you know you look daycare worker that the sameness until her Clinton sickness, it's the Democrats, it's the Washington Lee its Hollywood and all the kind of comes together to make it more politically motivated. Then pretty Conspiracy theories, maybe were it's all coming together in a powerful way, and I don't see that shifting any and soon I think it's only an employee because of all in our politics in the next few years. Looking out the role that conspiracy theories play in american society at large, is it still a right left thing? Then the past we talk about conspiracy, theories on this package and our guest, who was an academic who studied conspiracy theories basically said: there's no right, left divide. Republicans Democrats believe conspiracy, theories and equal rights, and we got messages that saying no, that's not true

I'm curious for your take on this is the right left divide on conspiracy theories as much conspiracies have always played a role in the american political life. We ve never had a precedent that judges straight up line as much trump didn't, really spread a lot of conspiratorial thinking and dabbled it in and entertain a lot of theories in the way that he like to do. That's unique and that's been a major influence in the kinds of conspiracies the people are believing and how much they believe. Who believes it, who are we spoke to before, was correct in saying that there is a people know up believing it scarcely varies as much as people in the right through different conspiracy theories, that any backs movement, for example lotta. That is from people that lean more left in their politics and a lot of them kind of went down a tube and acute on from the left. So it's not strictly are a right wing phenomenon, believing it scarcely theories were. I think that there is a distinction. Is.

in this distrust, Charles and which has no matures I'm paying, for they think one of the pillars protecting as against falling into just madness and believing ever conspiracy. That comes our way, is having journalists fact jacket uncover the truth in the parlour. Is I want to do that piece about cognitive trades? I think it's really easy to point. The finger at people believe a conspiracy theory that you don't believe in sailor. Easier, they're, stupid or any other pejorative term you want, but the way we form Things are police is not that analytical a purely. Article one. My sources for that story was like we're, not a bunch of Spock's walking around, like analyzing all the data coming to a perfect conclusion that we all kind of form opinions. And then maybe we look for a little bit of evidence that supports the opinion we already formed and we find something like that's good enough and we kind of call of the day. It's rare for any of us to spend a great deal of time investigating every single piece of information that forms are worldview, and so

I think, come under this. No longer compassion is helpful, especially those people in your life that believing conspiracy theories and believing and things are, you maybe think, are dangerous or concerning the coming two under the big compassion, a bit of understanding can go a long way to may be helping them come to the pact reality a little bed. That's I've had some good advice and right over the person who gave you that Spock quote is also the person the retired for on this package before about the prevalence of conspiracy theories, and why people might believe them. That's, professor from University of Mammy Joe Sensitive, but let's leave things their effects are actually things you gave your address is politics and type rapporteur here at five thirty, eight, my name is given drew Clare. Budgetary Curtis is on audio editing and in the control room, along with our in turn, MRI. We belgian Stevens, is on video

you can get it that's right. You telling us at podcast that five thirty eight dot com. You can also persuaded us with any questions or comments. If your fan of the show leave us a rating or review and the Apple pie cast store or tell someone about us thanks for listening and will cease it was simply,

body. This is Elsie Grandison here to tell you about my new podcast made easy audio cod life out loud. This show is all about preserving the history and uttering the contributions of the eligible. Take you community each week, I'll talk to some of the most fascinating people, paving the way for a more inclusive world. These conversations can get heavy, but this shows also coming bill was so much joy and I mean, after all, we are car gay people right self, gaddi, some happiness in there somewhere check out life out loud with me, Elsie Grandison, wherever you get your pockets.