« Freakonomics Radio

124. Running to Do Evil

2013-04-25 | 🔗
An interview with Unabomber Ted Kaczynski, whose younger brother turned him in -- and what it says about the Boston bombers.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This podcast dynamically inserts audio advertisements of varying lengths for each download. As a result, the transcription time indexes may be inaccurate.
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dumplings now in the freezer, I'll, if you are a man or a boy- and you have a brother smashing older brother, and you know that the bond between brothers is, unlike any other. Sometimes that bond is almost. Possibly wonderful, very often leads to go out and play patch, or one of us would hit the ball with the bat and other one would catch it. What we do. Get ready, always run the balls from very sore throat and salute. We remain run
Really, I think we did an arrest, here's the world, sometimes the brotherly bond toxic I don't I don't know what to say to truly wanted me to suffer exactly one score a victory over me. The sea put himself in the in the in the Victoria's position in position when you probably don't recognize voice, because he hasn't spoken much in public, but you do know the person. The voice belongs to its ten Kosinski July, causes in this interview. You deny the EU committed excise attributed to the universe.
Ted Gusinsky is the Unabomber homegrown terrorist over the course of seventeen years planted or mailed at least sixteen bombs? He killed three people and wounded twenty four. He wasn't religious fundamentalists, but he was a fundamentalist, his enemy as essentially modern society he drove in Chicago, attended, Harvard but he wound of living alone. In a remote cabin in Montana, Woods he was arrested, eighteen. Ninety six, after one of the most noted, for years and longest man hunting history and he was sentenced to life in prison. How did he finally get caught? His younger brother David turn him in Where are you surprised when you learn that it was David? You join you in recent price.
Now terrors. I'm happy. From W and see an ATM american public media. This is brief. Economics. Radio podcast explores the hidden side of everything. Here's your host Stevens Abner Pine, interviewed TED Gusinsky in ninety; ninety nine, three years after he was arrested for the crimes that earned him the name Unabomber. It was in this imprisoned then, as he is today, a federal Supermax in Florence Colorado. Just dangers of your life in prison,
What are you a little bit about daily routine? You gain. I was asleep a day, yeah, I've been writing a magazine article about his brother, David, the hero of the Unabomber story. If there was such a thing, then I learned that TED was writing a book, a book that wound up never being published in the book spent most of its time attacking David as intellectually dishonest and resent full of his brilliant big brother. I requested, and your view with tat, even though he didn't do that kind of thing and, to my surprise, he agreed we talked several hours he sat on a concrete bench and a concrete room, a wall of reinforce
glass between every other day, rather than ever, these excesses in most of our conversation, that day was about David and TAT, TED and David. There's Kosinski TED, the older brother by seven years, intellectual. Domineering and socially awkward, David, more tender touch. More yep that living in the real world, but also in Thrall to his big brothers, love of nature and his hatred of an over industrialized society. He followed TED among other places, into the wilderness. as modern is their story? Was it also felt ancient like Isaac and Ishmael were greek tragedy,
more than anything it was about the enormous leverage that a big brother can exert on the younger one. I don't mean to say that brotherly love isn't real. It is and as the youngest of four brothers myself, I've experienced a lot of it, but with brothers there can be a lot of other stuff to rivalry resentment insecurity. There are things that if other people told you to do them you just laugh pay but sent this thing on fire or pay as soon as it gets dark its jump off a cliff, but when you're big brother tells you to do the stuff, you do it. Last week's bombings at the Boston Marathon and the violence afterward were apparently allegedly committed by a pair of brothers. Timberline and Joe hearts are naive.
The older brother has since been killed the younger brothers under arrest, as we began to learn more about them. I couldn't help but think of the brothers Kosinski how the dynamic between brothers is, unlike any other, there are some parallels between the two sets of brothers Parts are naive. Like David Kosinski is seven years younger than his brother. In each case, the older brother was a loner and angry. The younger brother mellower better adjusted, and yet they idolized their big brothers and, of course, in each case there were bombs,
But Joe Hartshorn, I have followed his big brother into violence. David Kosinski did not, while for many years he and TED where's close as only brothers can be. There came a time when they were as bitterly estranged as perhaps only brothers can be. The estrangement was a result of David getting a girlfriend.
When the Patrick, whom David longed for since high school finally returned his longing. When David and Linda got serious, TED cut David off Linda brought David back into the modern world, it was she who persuaded David to consider that his big brother might be the Unabomber and then to go to the FBI. When I interviewed tat in prison, one stipulation was it he wouldn't talk That is actual crime, since he was still hoping for a retrial in prison. His neighbors were who's who of ninety nine, these terrorism, Timothy Mcveigh vehicle, a home, a city bomber, Rumsey Youssef from the first world trade, center bombing see their solar cells. And the sick and these people were
yeah. They don't seem to be very their consider others, some of them away, intelligent. Listening back this conversation from nearly fifteen years ago, I am reminded of two things to disturbing things. One, but TED Gusinsky doesn't sound. Like the kind of angry anti social person who had run around killing people or at least how we think that kind of person should sound and two as you're about to hear that TED has such a deep reservoir of disdain for David did. He makes it sound as if David, the man who stopped the bombings is the bad guy, because he David. Hadn't stayed the course because he hadn't stayed loyal to his big brother
Is it fair to say that your relationship with David over the years, which obviously had a lot of pigs and valleys? Is it fair to say that that was the most profound personal you never I will see its the leaders. Between the in the Bop one thousand nine hundred and ninety, when I finally broke off right, the view and David How do you think that you were most alike yeah, Over many years is Sheridan sure great man is dead right and it's not clear to me to what extent this was simple imitation of me on his part. And was limitation is really going somewhere Ray
there's some similar we're both. Basically, why someone alone: Another similarity between us would be that. General. You wrote that His adulation of you discuss the new at certain points over the course of your relationship Did you try to communicate that to him? Did you say to him Dave? This is not a healthy way to be. I'm I'm glad you like me and when you respect me Your own person did you ever try to have that kind of conversation with him? No one, I mean It wouldn't let me say that problem and I mean-
I in one where he would appear to be overwhelmed me but it wasn't someone who so wish that I am sure that it was it- was really their rights, in your dreams, literally in your dreams and then you're thinking sounds as you really felt protective of David for many many years. Yes, you think in some way Did he ever began to feel protective of you, you think there's even into adulthood, especially after you and corrupt communication, you think they ve ever began to feel protective of. You know you know. In what ways Then he was jealous of you. He's, probably jealous of fact that the I got more attention for my trip for my parents, who was jealous of that relationship.
jealous smarter was mostly athletics are winning. In what ways of any real jealous of dave- Ah, the only way. I can think that I might have been somewhat jealous of him was that he was in high school. Has had lots of friends who are socially successful
When we come back how TED Kosinski went even further into the path of radicalism, and how his adoring little brother finally found his way back into the mainstream. What are you would read most in retrospect about your relationship with David about the way the relationship devolved? I guess What's the big ears Economics, radio sponsored by wonder is business movers podcast when cocoa will it change their recipe to what they called new coke in nineteen?
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oh, how important it is to have a healthy cashflow. That's why we take payments with square either in person or online. You get your money fast access it instantly vs, where Square card a free business, debit card or transfer it. To your bank. Account on. You reschedule see all the ways Square can health at square dot com slash, go slash freak though nonsense. From W and Y see and eight p M american public media. This is for economics, radio, here's your host Stephen Governor
Today's episode is from a prison interview. I did nearly fifteen years ago with TED Kosinski Unabomber for an article that was published in Time magazine. I dug up the old tapes this week because the brothers charged with the Boston Marathon bombings, reminded me of this range volatile dynamic of brotherhood, especially the pole of big brother on the younger one. For years, David Kosinski identified with his older brothers, anti social, Worldview and he was so alien from the mainstream system amazes me just for rating. And
I wouldn't say equally or for ready now was there, and yet there was never any ambition is doing act in or take radical measures, in other words, as TED Kosinski sees it. His younger brother David wasn't radical enough to be taken seriously and then, even worse, you went totally mainstream. He got married to a woman named Linda, Patrick, who found TED creepy. Maybe even dangerous David tried to keep up his relationship bring long heartfelt letters, but eventually TED shut him out. What do you read most in retrospect about your relationship with David, about the way the relationship devolved? I guess. Wait a minute break twenty years
You still feel that way: young persons and women. In many respects remains from my right. I don't like it was my brothers and right you do you think would have changed in his life. Broken off earlier? well, I. Let me put it this way. I think that his is something wrong with a serious attempt to two equally with very limited success: living there. Kids self esteem would have been in much better shape if he haven't had
compete with their software, and I am your friend. Would peoples with me right if the roles in reverse you even suspected David being even of our right after all the years, communicating very regularly. What would you have done. Myself is that what you feel you should have done and what was the first What was your reaction to that when you first year, the David is involved in turning you and what does that feel like I'm here there was another another string to my feelings there. I don't know if I can explain it properly
in a way. My own brother, Well, I guess it's, everyone, but. Some of you when I click, but there We can do so by it? Was there If someone is Bruce Lee. That tells me be imminent. Otherwise, so
maybe that's not my balls. When TAT was arrested David fought hard to keep him from getting the death penalty, is made tat angry. He wanted the death penalty. So where the rest of the world sees David Kosinski, Turning in his older brother as an active heroism, TED sees resentment and where the rest of the sea, David pleading for his brothers life as an act of mercy, TED sees it as for Punishment pressed down is ah it's Let me explain this there. Different levels of feel about your life.
In this way, when I was living in the woods there was. Sort of underlying feeling there Things were basically right with my life, that is. Something might go wrong. I might have a bad damaged screw something up. I might break my axe, handle and and do something else everything would go wrong, but still somehow, under the underneath, see the superficial underline my life was right: back, then Here I was a free man in the moon surrounded by force, and, while I saw endless me this made my life right. Even if things were going badly, here is the other way around. President downcast ahead,
do that language learning and in his book, Yet the knowledge locked up here, let me so for the rest of my life- is in ruins its the under his thesis is mainstreaming dead ends I don't want, I would rather get them. Something then spend the rest of my life in prison. When you ve, given me, I will not add a superficial. Just will not live free sort. It's just not ready. What do you say? You never retrial and acquitted, and no way back to use a society to relax them.
Do not worry about the universe, Is large. Well, I don't know that I would have to sign it Let them worry Where do you come visit? You David's in the room now wait, I will do my best. You still love me now.
We asked David Kosinski to talk about his brother, the show he understandably chose not to ever since TED's arrest. David has worked hard to tread repairs and the damage done by his brother, while TED is never expressed, regret or apologize to the victim's David did he do needed money. He toward the country, speaking against violence, It's bizarre to me at least listening back to this type of TED. He makes it sound as if he is the aggrieved party Do you imagine having an older brother like that? Who tells you that up and down is up soon. You may start believing him and if he has
bad intentions, violent intentions. Well, you might start believing that Those are your intentions to. We don't know enough yet about the Boston bombers, to say for sure. If your heart, the younger brother, was pulled into his older brothers orbit, whether he followed willingly, but we do know that David Kosinski didn't do what the younger surname have brother allegedly did. He didn't join forces, he didn't capitulate, he didn't run to do evil. This episode has been talk. All talk about actions, terrible talk may be
interesting, but let's be clear, it's our actions that matter all this talk offers no solace whatsoever to the victims of TED Kosinski to the victims of the criminals in Boston. I wish we could do better than this moment. Words are all we have pray, economics, Radios use by W and Y see ATM american public media and governor productions. Our staff include Susie, Elect Ember, Catherine well,
stated: Herman Borri, Lamb and Chris Bannon calling Campbell as our executive producer. If you want more freakin onyx radio, you can subscribe to our podcast on Itunes or go to freakin, start com, we'll find lots of radio a blog, the books and more. Yeah.
Transcript generated on 2021-03-15.