We spend billions on our pets, and one of the fastest-growing costs is pet "aftercare." But are those cremated remains you got back really from your pet?
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paper gets listeners. The show you're about to hear was first released in the fall of two thousand thirteen For those of you who listened to every episode, we hope you will agree is worth hearing again and for those of you who I haven't heard it please stay tuned for the troubled cremation maybe a few months back. We got an email from a fella named John rimmed costs and will Brook Illinois. Just at such a cargo. He wrote quote hello. This is kind of a long shot and bit out of left field, but I was curious to see there would be any interest in time to prove that the cremated remains from certain pet. Crematoria are unlikely to be those of a particular pet end quote: is there any interest?
it John there's, a kid gets Amy I'll, give you the tour the ground it turns out. The John Renquist himself is in the pet cremation, and he also runs the Hinsdale, I'm all cemetery. He took us on a tour. What you're looking at is the oldest part of the cemetery directly in front of us. you don't have any famous dogs in particular, but about the cemetery is a family business, along with John there's, his brother David Rent guess is father. My name is built around kiss and his mom. and it was means around so I'll. Take your under couple, my favorite epitaphs there's a Yoda hear this
Terry has been in the family since one thousand nine hundred and fifty when John Rimkus his grandparents bought, may the force be with you sweet pup, one thousand nine hundred and seventy eight through two thousand and my inner nerds gonna show empire strikes back come out to my team. Eighty and that's when the automated debut and this pat was born. Eighteen, seventy eight saw you have made, Maybe I'm learning out Another story. There are thousands of cats and dogs buried here, along with bunny rabbits birds, hamsters horses, a three foot shark and about thirty human beings. To this It's where people come to rest alongside their pets and resent ours is one example of system says we will never forget you. You always being
thoughts and in our hearts we love you some of the animals buried here or in corpse form and some have been cremated, which brings us back to the reason the John Rankest wrote to us. He thinks there's something fishy about the pet cremation, the street he thinks it. Some of his competitors are not playing by the rules. Now, a few years ago, Renquist hired a private investigator to try to prove it. So you I call him a motivated, whistleblower motivated, that is, by casting guilt on his rivals and in the process of making his own business look better. Maybe so, but then, necessarily mean. The John Memphis I'm happy
from the w and my see this is free economics, radio, the pot cats that explores the hidden side of everything. Here's your host Stephen governor. So John rimmed Sue runs a pet crematory outside of Chicago wrote to say that he suspects his competitors of fraud and that he hired a p. I try to prove producer. Catherine welders takes it for me, I met up with John REM Costs and his father build to talk about this investigation. Here's bill, Cremation is a mystery to most people and with it being a mystery on how cremation should be performed or what it's all about. It's it's easy to
the advantage of you, because I dont understand it to understand the investigation. You need to understand how cremation works. So you ve just had your dog put down you're at the vat with the body. You're probably distraught that will ask you what you wanna do. Do you wanna take him home? She might suggest that you cremate the pet and she might offered to take care of the process for you. If you don't want the ashes back, the vat will send off the dog for something called a group cremation where a bunch of pets are cremated together. If you do want the ashes back there she'll suggest you do? A private cremation John Ramphias showed us how this process, but when we do right and provision of just one at a time five receives ban all their pets permitted remains that remain
The cremation machine is a big silver metal block with a little Dorin friend. What I pressed for the door to come up those up. Then we see that there is a single inside the relation chamber for lenders engender fire that comes down from the ceiling it makes contact with. Those remaining remains in order for cremation process to complete when the burden is finished Bell sweep out, there remains, which are mostly bone. Brain them up and for the minutes is about it.
pretty simple right. If you dont want the ashes back, go with a group cremation, if you do go with private well, it's not actually that because there is yet another option. You might be offered its an in between not quite private option how it Several animals are cremated together in one machine, but their separated with bricks or on metal trays. So, theoretically it still get most of your pets ashes back this. Third, is usually called segregated or partitioned cremation, but the terms can get confused seeing you might also hear it called semi, private or even in visual It is usually cheaper than a totally private cremation, but there's a problem what private or India the jewel or partitioned cream. really means depends on we are talking to and the lower the ices go the murk here. The definitions get
so when John rankest saw that some of its competitors were offering very low prices for some of these services, he got suspicious generally just the ridiculous kept increasing in the market and just got sillier and sillier how low the prices would go. Ram discharges about a hundred and eighty dollars for a private cremation of a small animal, but what started to see was that his competitors were offering much lower prices and doing things like giving away free tvs too. That's who funneled business to them. Renquist says just couldn't imagine how is competitors could be making a profit off of these services at those prices, so he does added to do something about it. He hired a private investigator and they devised an experiment,
so what we did and came up with a tracking compound that would allow us to chemically test for its presence after the cremation process is through webcast had on hand. Eight dead, stray cat said had been passed along to him for this, So this gets a little gory, but what he did is he had a vet implant, each dead animal. With this tracking material, Titanium, dioxide, now cremation machines get very, very hot. Like sixteen hundred Greece hot. But titanium dioxide melting point is way above that its three thousand three hundred and fifty degrees Fahrenheit, so this material would make through the Berne and still up in the ashes afterwards. So This material was implanted. The private investigator took the dead animals to several of the competitors with the very low prices. He asked each one
them to do a partitioned cremation, the in between sort of private option. We got the ashes back and you know they'll look like cremated remains. A known fact that they were created remains upon him. Analyzed so far so good. But when allow but analyzed the remains for the tracking material. Three of the eight samples weren't right. We discovered that there was such an insignificant amount of the tracking material in were these samples that at best you were given a scoop of a larger group, cremation when you send in your cat to be cremated. How do you know the scoops you get back or full of fluffy what, if they were MAX, dog or a durable or a rat or all of those me.
Together and chopped off with some parakeet. The truth is short of doing a test this. There is really no way for you to tell how any cremation happens unless you go and yourself. Now John Ramphias felt like the tracking material. Experiment was pretty solid proof that he's compared. There's were not doing cremation in the way that they advertised, but he to be really sure, so he did a second test. So what we did is We had the investigators procure to stuffed animal cats, and where do you get a stuffed animals kept by the way of those place online? That head realistic, stuffed animals, cats that were actually manufactured using rabbit for they were so soft that you couldn't tell the difference than what we have
investigators. Do is stuff them, with some hamburger mean, and some crisco just to approximate the Wayne Feel of the deceased cat men had them freeze the stopped cat up. That last part may sound strange, but it's not unusual for people to freeze and animal until they can take it for cremation. So off these frozen fake cats went for another partitioned cremation. Now it's important to reinforce here that bone is really the only part of the body that survives the heat of cremation everything else burns away. So with these fake boneless cats, there would be almost nothing left. So we sent to through directly to this particular competitor and in both instances we got backbone ash in the amount of what you would expect for our part of that size. Ok, so you sent the faint cats through
with no bone in them and you got bone back, not just not just some bone, exactly what you would expect for of a pet of that weight what does that suggested and complete the circle. For me, that suggests that this company is just taking a scoop of a group cremation and doing it out, based on the weight of the animal that comes in so simplified, big labrador might be three scoops, a cat might be once group and that's what we believe was happening in these instances. Why would a crematory do this? Well, it saves time labour energy money and it means more profit, but they think it's worth Pointing out that I can also imagine
much less nefarious way. For this to happen, cremation is turbulent process. It's a huge fire after all and its possible did these come These did in fact separate out. All of the body is, but in the process. burning the remains become mixed, but in the It doesn't really matter whether the mix up is intentional or not, because the bottom line is that the pet owner is not getting back, what they think they're getting back, which is only their animal after John Rank instead is experiment. He brought his findings to the attorney general of Illinois. Consumer protection division. the division reviewed the procedures of one of the competitors, a company called all pause. No further action was taken.
The rim cases are still convinced that fraud is out there. Here's drawn and Bell again it made me more sad than anything that pet owners are being taken advantage of. In the end they don't even know it when you choose cremation services on price chance. Are you gonna get burned? many times out of a hundred you're gonna, get burned. Now, as we noted earlier for John Renquist to claim that his competitors are being dishonest. Well, he may not be the most unbiased source in the world. We can Several of these other crematoria. Most them didn't return our calls or emails, but one did he didn't want to go on tape, but here's what you told us he said
run an honest business. We ve been doing this for forty years. We don't mix things up and he said sure I've heard of that happening not here, and he said I'm in the business of helping grieving pet owners, not of pointing fingers are calling my competitors names on the radio. This story makes renquist look bad for doing that, and he said I'm not thrilled to hear that this guy brought a cat least with chemicals to us, and then we burn those chemicals what if they were combustible what, if somebody got hurt, so we don't have enough information to say, whose right here but look people do cheat spent every day in just about every realm of life. Should we assume that pet cremation would somehow be exempt course now, unfortunately,
couldn't find any worthwhile data. That would help us definitively answer this question. For now the only proof is a homemade investigation of the hamburger and crisp overriding. So coming up on for economics, radio, we run our own experiment to see what happen you send crematory cap has no bones our appealing rabbit for one and a phoney cremation happens with pets. Does it happen with people to one of the cases? on a human side that really made a change in how everybody handled the human side, information was,
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According to governments, statistics there well over two hundred million pets in America, not counting pet fish. Why government statistics don't include fish, we don't know, maybe that's an episode for another day We spent a lot of money on these pets. Pet sixty one billion dollars a year, which is roughly the size of the? U dot S, wedding industry and just wait till pet start getting married over the past twenty years are pet spending his trip One area, this growing very very fast, is pet after care, the end, National Association of PET cemeteries and crematoria tells us that ten years ago, only a handful of places specialised in pet after care. but today there more than seven hundred pet funeral homes crematoria and cemeteries. Here's producer Catherine Wells again,
if you want to find out about the pet cremation industry and the people in it a good place to start is the annual conference of the IPCC F, a that's the international cemetery cremation and few, Earl Association. This year's annual conference was held in Tampa in the springtime, the eye you see, I say, is mostly an organization for funeral directors for humans, but every year More and more pet funeral professionals come Colleen. Ellis is one of them I'm a fur mama. So all of my children have fur coats Alice. Is the head of the pet loss professionals. Alliance that means she loves pets, she's, not alone Perceval Sixty percent of people own pet, ok. Eighty three percent of the sixty two, referred themselves as mommy and daddy baby boomers empty nested and the pets are the new kids
and they want to make sure that when they have those new kids they're giving them every spoiling rights that they would give to any child, the younger oaks the x and the wise right now. They are maybe hold, often having kid so their test, driving with a puppy and kitty their finding the treats that organic their finding the little doggie spot so they can do facial sad and they can have fun time their finding. The doggie day cares where they can go. Oh sure, lies now and they can be funding in good pet parents because they ve taken their child over to play with other children. Okay, so the trend of life is going to push the trend of debt, and when you honor death, you honor life, and that means that no expenses spared when pets die too Alice points to a necklace, she's wearing it's a big silver heart with little palmprints on it. I haven't or non around my neck right now. I dont have remains and hear what I have as the hair in the fur and a little whisker of all the living in deceased animals that I've had in my life,
and so for me. This is a way that I can honour them. I can keep them with me: earn necklaces. to be pretty popular Ellis, wasn't actually the only person wearing one at the conference hers. And opened up and had a usb port and side where she keeps videos of Oliver pets. She sent them to me to be very sick. Rudy said: Crisco sit it look at my baby. I saw you in a treat. So obviously Alice is really proud of her animals and she knows that pet owners, like her, would be really devastated to find out that the ashes they got back didn't, onto their animals and a question. Came up at the conference was this? Would a pet owners,
maybe so devastated that they'd sue That's a big market in that ministers liability. This is Paula masters. He was at the acc, I think conference too. He used to be euro, director and embalm are, but today he works with human and pet funeral homes on legal issues I was so we will. You can expect to make money off of something and not create a lot. Believe. At the same time, it doesn't work that way lay Leyla masters has been thinking a lot about the legal implications of cremation fraud, and he told me there's play a precedent for this pet mess in the human cremation business and in two thousand to in the town. Noble Georgia. We discovered one concrete, vault, stuff or pack. With more human remains. A large garage type building was found today filled to the top
but decomposing human remains so far. Ninety two sets of remains have been recovered and some of these remains date. Back decades we found some mama, but one of them cases on human side that really made a change in how everybody handled the human side of cremation was a noble Georgia, Tracy, crematory and noble had been receiving bodies from funeral homes for years, but in. Destination uncovered something awful. The owner had been dumping purposes in the woods and giving other materials like cement dust back to the families. In total, more than three hundred bodies that were supposed to have been cremated were found, so they ended up going after the crematory and also after the funeral home that were using them. Many things were discovered included that a lot of the fuels for using this crematory.
Purely because of their price because happen to be the cheapest. They also funded that nobody was inspecting. Nobody was even going to look the case set an important legal precedent, the guy who ran the crematory, was sentenced to twelve years in prison and both he and the funeral homes that used him were fined millions of dollars. After this scandal states eight and regulations of the human cremation industry. Now there are all sorts of certain nations and licences and permits a mission the standards and specific requirements for proper procedures to identify and keep track of remains, but pet, crematoria, is don't have nearly the same amount of oversight. It varies from state to state and even from county to county, but in most places all you.
due to open a pet crematoria spill out an application for a licence and get a permit from the EPA. Paula masters thinks there. Then there might be less oversight of the pet cremation. Industry is because there has really been a high profile, pet cremation law suit in the U S but What, if there was one at the icy CFO conference, monsieur Le Masters staged a big mock trial it was in a hotel, ball room. They set out folding tables in the shape of a court room and about seventy five people showed up to watch. La masters wanted to know. What would happen if a case of cremation fraud ever came to trial
How would the jury react, what kind of price what they put on a pet and who would have to pay it? the ashes, you are already that's LE masters. Again, playing the role of the prosecuting attorney, he gives us running statement and calls the first witness up to the stand. Do, you solemnly affirm that the testimony you may get? This matter will be the truth, the whole treaty and nothing but the truth. I came back This is Roberta off she's a councillor at a pet food. home in Ohio and volunteered to play the role of plaintive. Tell us about Molly Molly
my best friend. She was a wonderful companion and she was very close to my heart not starts to tell the story of the made up dog Molly. She said: Molly died cancer at an old age and was cremated through the bat. Everything seems fine at first, but a few months after she brought the ashes home, not heard that crematory owners were being investigated, they'd, apparently, been dumping animals in a field and returning random ashes back to people, the veneering Call me and said there had been an investigation, and they told me that wasn't Wally's ash than I had better and even the police investigation said they weren't hers
pursuing not just the crematory, but the vet too, because the vat had outsource the cremation to the cheapest company and then stuck NA, with a hefty up charge, which it turns out, is not uncommon practice not had no idea I don't have my I'll never happen now. This point not starts crying real tears, She told me later that her pain was real because she knows this actually happens to pet owners. The mock, jurors, who had been recruited off of Craigslist, were moved, on the issue of infliction of emotional distress. What do you find the defendant Oceanside Sorry, we do find liable and of war damages in the amount of a hundred and fifty thousand dollars and the issue of negligence. What do you think
oceanside crematory we do find liable and award of damage a three hundred and fifty thousand dollars and finally, on the issue of punitive damages. What do you find ocean crematory redefine liable in a word Adele three million dollars and punitive damages against them. Well, this mark jury charged the veterinary clinic. Would damage is too for not going up to check on the crematory thus far jury webmasters was really excited about. This result excited because it confirmed his hunch
a jury would be willing to punish fraudulent pet crematory is that they wouldn't dismissive as just a dog or a cap la masters, and I talked about what could happen after that. I was over and he said that if a real jury ever did the same thing, There is real money involved. It could completely change how the pet cremation industry works. In the court system. Pets of typically always been considered property, however, over the years court. Started to recognise that pets are people too and give them more and more latitude their owners parents more latitude however, damages that was Catherine Wells reporting for us. Ok, we're here to talk about Stevie
Davy in Stevie, do we name them Stevie the care they got? There are called Stevie the Countess Stevie in this Susie Lichtenberg she's, the executive producer of economics, radio, the cat named after Levin Turner, effectively cats named Stevie that she's talking about wealth, we decided to run our own tests at three pet crematoria. here in New York. We wanted to see what would happen if we did. What John Renquist told us he did in Illinois send a faint cat out for cremation, so we bought three fate. Cats from a store called this place is a zoo. They market the cats, as quote not very cuddly but great for display, or to replace a missing pet, yet Look like ahead anymore, because it's the fort well, we were excited when they arrive. They are very realistic.
orange and wait? Kiddies curled up asleep a stiff body covered and real rabbit for our feeling. Rather, we strip the rabbit fur off the cats and stuffed each of them with a few pounds of Hamburg and so each attended by Greece. They should then we put these murders. draft rabbit, furred cat skins in a grocery back in froze them for a few days until we can arrange for the three crematory to pick them up. But this point, then we ll look that much like cats, but apparently they worked catlike enough for the three crematoria to take them off. Our Alex real- and, I think, mostly whereas applying for this job. This was not in the nice and we.
course we're telling the fear bright. We're telling them that what were giving them is a real dead cat. Now, when you get back, cremated remains whether it's a pet or a human, its composed almost entirely of bone ash. So, in this case, we are sending a cat with no bones. So theoretically we shouldn't. Back much ash at all. The fur and a hamburger meat should burn off almost entirely so we sent off these three cats Susie and the other producers handled this part they kept me in the dark. I hadn't idea, what kind of remains if any we got back a few weeks later, we sat down to talk. So can I ask you first, what do you think happened? What would I predict happen it because we take three cats. We sentiment to three different pet crematoria and what do I think happened? Oh
three cats whose bodies are made up of hamburger, Meet Stephan Rabbit for stuffed and rabbit fur, I guess what I hope happened is at each of these three institute. It's called and said: Susie, I'm sorry to table but something was strange with Stevie your cat and he just burnt hell and there was nothing left and we'd love to give you the ashes of your beloved Steve, the cat but we can understand why there aren't any instead will give you a em, maybe nice plush stuff animal, or why don't you just see what happened you Eddie. please don't be ashes, please don't be ashes. The fact that there's something here is not good and I'm gonna open it
well. This is promising I'm gettin happier canal. I gotta. If this open to plastic, then yeah, should they not be hurt? not be. Oh, no, oh bomber. I thought it was a man it. This is somebody else is dead. Pat right here. Right, then, is not Stevie. but First Box is from a place called pet crematory agency. We paid for a private, cremation, four hundred and sixty dollars, which meant that Maybe the cat should have been alone in the chamber. The second box is from pet cremation of New York. Again, the private cremation. This one cost three hundred seven dollars listens heavy. And right there, the label when I opened the box as private cremation and
appears to be another bag of animal bones that do not belong to Stevie the cat, because Stephen the cat had no the second bag had way more ashen. It maybe three times as much as the first one, but that was Stevie one in Stevie to Stevie Number three got what's called an individual cremation me, he's supposed to be alone in a pan, but that other animals were also in the chamber in different pans. Even so, this one cost more than the others, five hundred and five dollars and seventy four cents. It was from a place called Hartsdale crematory. ok once again, a t ten beautiful, floral, Prince kind of smaller some paperwork here and more of the same
were kitty remains. I have to say these look a little bit this honestly. This looks like beach sand. There look to be chunks. bone or bone fragments, then ashy stuff, which I guess, as other bone came says, Davy on there, so I This isn't my Stevie since my somebody else's Stevie. Ok so let's not assume that these crematoria are doing something wrong. Maybe something happened in the burned chamber. That would explain why we back all that bone ash from animals. It did how many bone- or maybe the hamburger meat. We used hadn't inordinately large amount of ground bone in it not likely, but if you read the paper- The annals of diagnostic pathology called fast food hamburgers. What are we really eating? You'll see that
On and lots of, other cow parts can end up in ground, Chuck or maybe not defend. Cost structure is low I visited Nick protracted at his friends forensic lab at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York. He teaches chemistry and forensic science there Pacheco used to be he started his career Nypd in nineteen sixty eight then he finished his ST agree, and went on to work at the police lab as a detective, he retired in ninety. Ninety, and now he runs a forensic science consulting firm, especially as trace evidence. He and my colleague named John Roughneck, whose also professor for it,
science at John Jay agreed to analyze the campaigns for us. We looked at the ashes under a microscope juncture in the top of the preacher dish, look legit, beautiful people, crystalline structure that we tackle. This is just a little bit of Stevie. One Bone me, this is not residue from what you sent them. so that was their initial reaction looking at the ash under the microscope, but they hadn't done their full forensic analysis yet so they couldn't
for sure that there remains that we got back or indeed bone, but before we get to what they found. I learn that Nick Pacheco is a dog lover. He's had three beagles Jake Ralph and Butch Watch. As poppy from my my professors, hearings, common college here to fifteen years, a good life. I cry about war, yeah, good life belly. He ain't good, so that's why it with a little bit agonizing when he saw the hostile to where I set my hans down through my that I know it's hard to tell. This is before he looks at the remains from Hearthstone got up on a second Take hearing this so clearly This guy did not want what's in the heart still,
package claim that he did not want us to get duped after I left John Jay. It took petruchio about a week to do While forensic work up and tell us exactly what was an arc remains. I called to see what he found out We found in each of the three sets of material from the crematorium each set of materials head primarily bone fragments in it and it will burn bone, fragments, verified the elemental composition by finding calcium and phosphorus witches. Typically, what bone is made out of calcium phosphate? Permit boundary talking about on the vast majority of materials
The very each case are it's a Susie. According to these forensic experts, the three bags of pet cremated that we got back were made up almost entirely we have bone which doesn't seem to make sense. We sent each of them a boneless cat in two of the three cases we paid for a private cremation, so we don't know where this bone ash came from and even in the third case, the individual cremation we're still supposed to get back. Only
the remains of our pat right. I think we have to assume that these crematory gave us back a scoop of ashes from some other criminal yeah, because it in our case there should have been any premiums, or at least only a tiny bit, but based on what we ve learned today. If I had a real pat to send in four cremation, I would not be all that confident that there remains that I'd be getting back, are definitely from My pet ain't that right, here's Nick Patricia again, the basically muttering, were decided on and off at crime, but it certainly not morally right, crystal oddities, TAT, Sir very dear, to the people and of paying these seas to have it done properly.
So apparently we got back some ashes from other people's pets. This major mean this I'm crematoria, don't do the right thing when they create a fake cat. We call the three New York crematory that we tested ass infer response. None of them would go on tape. One crematory pet cremation of New York declined to comment on the record. The set One pet crematory agency did send us something in writing. They noted that, the form we signed when we gave them. Stevie said we We are giving them a cat and that they needed further proof that Stevie we sent wasn't cat. The third crematory heart still also sent us a written statement. Sixteen pages long,
They emphatically denied any allegation that there was the improper handling of pet remains. They say that hard stale quote it: here's to strictly monitored and enforced procedures and safeguards throughout the cremation process to ensure the respectful treatment of pet remains from intake through return. End quote: hearts says the contents of our bag were placed in an individual, stainless steel tray put in the crematory furnace and upon completion of the cremation process, the Crimean quote consisting solely of the skeletal remains of Stevie were removed and processed by pulverizing, the bones end quote: also included a copy of a form signed by an employee, saying that the ashes are Stevie ashes and said this employ takes personal responsibility for the cremation.
parts they later sent us an addendum to its original statement, saying that active cold mingling of cremated remains will occur when you performer cremation, with more than one pet in the chamber. They attached newsletter from the pet lost professionals alliance, supporting this you can read the full statements from pet crematory agency and hearts down on our website for economics outcome. We ve also shared our findings with the New York State Attorney General's office. If we learn that they do conduct investigation will be sure to let you know. In the meantime, we wound up with three piles of pet premiums and even though there not from our pets, they probably belong to someone. So we thought we take the ashes outdoors and give them a proper send. Ok, here we go.
So long Phoebe, whoever you are. in practice. This news hope you enjoyed this reprieve of our episode about Stevie the cabin next week. A brand new episode in which we ask a question. I'm sure has kept you up at night with music being played in just about every public space, These days, why you rarely hear music in the one place really needs the public respite it's disgusting, but honestly I'd really try to avoid festoons, where there are lots of men doing firing, and one more thing before we let you go. We need your help for a future episode. We recently put out a two partners:
on education reform? And now we want to hear from you on this topic. So here's the question: if you had to pick out, thing to change about the education. system where you live. What would it be? And why now we want you to cord your answer on your phone and email us. The file. Radio at for economics. Dotcom tell us your name where you live. What you do your student, parent teacher, school administrator taxpayer, whatever So again send your audio files to radio at for economics that come tell us your name where you live, what you do and answer the following question: if you had to pick one thing to say, about the education system where you live. What would it be? And why and soon that will be the next episode you here Trigonometry Reaganomics Radio, which produced by W and Y, see and debonnair productions. Our staff includes David Herman, Gregg results,
Caroline English, Susie, Luxembourg and Chris banning withheld from Catherine. Else, embarrass LAN special thanks to bill here. Ivan Zimmermann engender freed. If you are more free, economics, radio. You can subscribe to our podcast on Itunes or go to freak economics. Dot com we'll find lots of video, a blog, the books and more.
Transcript generated on 2021-03-12.