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so I struggle at the end of a long day to get myself to the gym, even I know I should go, and of a long day also struggle with the desire to watch. My favorite tv shows instead of getting work done, and so I actually realise that, two temptations. Those true struggles I face could be combined to solve both problems. That's Katy Milkman, my sister. Professor at the Wharton School, where I study behavioral economics and how people make choices, ok, which might lead one to think that you're, an economist by training which would make one wrong correct, That's right. My my background is actually that I have a phd in computer science and business a joint phd in those two fields, but I spend a lot time hanging around economists and got really interested in this new field. This new field that milkman mentioned behavioral economics, something we talk about.

This programme. It is essentially a marriage of psychology and economics. It is inhabited by people who wish to blend the economists view incentives with the psychologists view that most people don't respond to incentives, as rationally as economic theory, would predict It was behavioral economics that years ago, got me interested in economics in first place, Behavioral Economics Maine seem as consequential as macro economics are Labour economics, but I would argue it can offer tremendous leverage when properly applied one well placed nudge can go a very long way. It is also a field that appreciates simple, clever solutions like something that Kate Milton's when working on she calls it temptation.

Bundling, I invented that phrase, although I am sure many other people had invented the same solution that I came up with and use that phrase to ascribe here's how it works in Milton's own case. What are you really says that if I only allowed myself to watch my favorite tv shows while exercising the gym, then I'd stop wasting time at home unused. Television and I'd start craving trips to the gym at the end of a long day, because I'd want to find out what happens next and my show and not only that I'd actually enjoy my work out. An my show more combined, I wouldn't feel guilty watching tv and time would files of the gym When I talk about temptation, bundling I mean combining a temptation. Something like a tv show a guilty pleasure, something that will pay you into engaging in a behavior was something you know you should do, but might struggle to do. That's a nice idea. As is often the case ideas but seem new in academia have in fact been

running wild in the real world. For quite some time. As we learn When we solicited your examples of temptation, bundling my temptation. Bundle is to listen to for economics outcasts, while running don't arena, What I like to do is skip an afternoon of work and go to the movies. After my annual pap sphere, I really My temptation bundle was acceptable, but it would be drinking at work. And had been from W and my seeing this is free economics, radio, the package that explores the hidden side of everything, here's your house Stephen governor

So I would love to know how you describe the unifying view of your research, which were going to talk about today so here's ears away, I would describe it may Be- is that a lot of activities that most of us consider should activities and then there are a lot of ways that we avoid those should activities and you try to identify the gap and look for ways to close the gap that are not too intrusive or costlier painful. That was me a lame attempt to present your worldview. Let me hear from you. I love your attempt to represent my worldview. I think it's much more cohesive. Actually one of the things that I think is always funny as whenever someone Emily,

I tell Party- and I'm with my husband- and somebody asked me what I do I say- will actually he'll describe it better than I well, because I get so focused on the little details that it's hard to actually step back and see the big picture, but I think you're disruption beautiful. So I think. In short, I struggle a lot with willpower and I find it difficult at the end of a long day to get to the gem, I have find it difficult to stick to my diet. I find it difficult to stick to Michael more generally and what I have found curious and world one of the things I found carriers Why and what I can do to solve those problems for myself and for others, and that's where a lot of my research focuses. Ok, so, let's start with temptation bundling. So what? If you only let yourself get a pedicure while catching up on over you email for work or what? If you only let yourself listened your favorite seedy

while catching up on household chores, or only let yourself go to your very favorite restaurant, whose hamburgers you crave. While spending time with a difficult relative who should see more of this, would all be examples of temptation, bundling, gotcha, ok, so the key is that the activity that you want to do is constrained. You can only do it when you're doing the other activities, so that sounds to some degree like a commitment device which we ve talked about in the show before, and our examples were so I'll. Give you a couple of hours, strange examples from of commitment devices. One was this guy who wanted to get healthy to lose weight, but I want to get healthy at a new kid, so he drew up a list of prohibitions, everything from alcohol to junk food pornography not, and if he vial, did them. Then he would force himself to write a check to Oprah Winfrey, who he hated more than anything in the world, for whatever reason, Steve Lever

had a diet idea also, which is for people who are trying to lose weight. One thing I know at work is just take a little. Can we see a baby food jar It would vomit, ok and weird around your neck. In every time you do died that your hungry just open the jar and take a little sniff guarantee you'll lose weight, guarantee our commitment devices of some sorts, I'm curious to know whether you see temptation bundling as a commitment devices it's more of a first cousins and now I see damnation willing as a new type of commitment device, with some distinct features from standard devices, so sooner grown vase typically provide some consequence. If you fail to engage in the intended behaviour, and so this is all different. What we are doing here is basically combining two commitments with each other and they sort of Fitly puzzle pieces. So you're using some, that's instantly gratifying to create a pole to provide

motivation? You need to do something that's on pleasurable at the moment of engagement And then the other component, as different as that you can actually have complementarity, is which is an excellent speak term for peanut butter and jelly two things that go better together and are more DR altogether, they would be separately, and so one of them things about, for instance, only allowing after what your favorite tv show while you're the Jim, is the fact that you might actually enjoy your work out more and you might enjoy the tv show more when you do them together, whereas the traditional commitment device just penalizes some behaviour, great, ok, so in fury and sure everybody hearing this says man Katy, that's brilliant. That is such a good way to approach problem solving. So that's the theory at least but ninety to find out if, in practice it works, a talk about what you did to find out. If temptation bundling, could actually improve outcomes absolutely so we ran and experiment actually at the gem at the University of Pennsylvania.

With a bunch of participants who told us that they wanted to exercise more and we ran hiding it. How did you find these subjects? In the first place, we posted flyers all over the campus. We sent out email blasts to every less serve we could find and the people who came told us they desperately wanted to exercise more, and they also had to have an ipod to be in our study and they had to belong to the University of Pennsylvania, Jim so that they could enter an exit ass. They pleased ok good, so we took these participants who wanted to exercise more and we randomly assign them through acquaintance to one of several different groups, the first expire,

our group- was a treatment group and these participants came in and they had their ipod with them, and we told them that we are actually going to give them a new ipod in addition to the one they already had. That would be pre loaded with four tempting audio novels of their choice. So we had a list of eighty two books that had been pre rated is extremely tempting and difficult to put down once you get engaged. So these are books like the divinity CO and the hunger games. The rules of the hunger games are simple in punishment for the uprising, each of the twelve districts provide one girl and one boy called tributes to participate. Participants choose the four that appeal most to them, load them on this loaned audio novel device, an ipod, and then they take them to the gym, and they do it

women at work out. While listening to the first audio novel, I have to say that it so flattering as a writer that you are treating hearing a book as the tree that people get for having to work out. It's so awesome. It is also my love. It worked too. I do suspect the tv would have been even more attempting an enticing by, but I think there are some novels that really grab you in fact, actually almost half of the participants in our study. At the time when we ran it shows the hunger games. That was really popular rate, then as a fabulous book for this study. I think because it so addictive once you get into it just, possible, but the book down, because we desperately want to know what happens, happy hunger game and maybe I'll be in your favour. You only have access to the audio version of the book when you're at the gem correct. That's right, so the participants in our study. They listen to the first thirty minutes and then there told

and this is while exercising their told if they want to hear what happens next will have to come back to the gem. Where we're going to hold this ipod, we flown them in a locked, monitored, locker that they can only check out when exercising so that's the first experimental group. Second experiment: our group has a very somewhere experience. They also get tempting audio novels. They also listen to the first thirty minutes, but this time those tempting audio novels are loaded onto their personal ipods and they also do their work out for thirty minutes while listening to the novel, but they are told why? Don't you try it only listen while exercising, but we want enforce it. So we want to see if actually people can self imposed this rule successfully, which would be great because if we can just educate people about this strategy and that's all we need to do and that can have a benefit. That means it's really easy job to roll out temptation bundling to the world Gregg. Ok. Finally, we

Our third group, which is actually control group and their control group instead of receiving attempting audio novel, they received an equally valued. Gifts are difficult to Barnes and noble, and they also completed a thirty minute work out at the beginning of this study, but not while listening to a novel, they could do whatever they wanted. They had their ipod, so maybe they'll listen to music, maybe they'll listen to a novel, they could do whatever they wanted, but we didn't control that we simply encourage them to exercise more ok, so that the three groups are ones who only listen to the novel that you get them addicted to, while at the gym, gasped. The second group who you give them the addictive material, but they don't have to come to the gym, to listen to it, then the third group would don't even get the addictive material unless they go out by it themselves with the money that you gave them right. Those are the three groups as the three groups I add to the middle group. There the addictive material and doesn't have to listen to it at the time that we strongly encourage them to only allow themselves to listen Icy when they're, ok, I'm so its frame does try.

Only use this to lawyers after the jam, as opposed to here just some materials that are given the tool and a sense there. Just not given the restriction they have to self imposed. It. Ok, so three groups the date but you collected frighten people went for a minimum of nine weeks. I believe he said yes, that's right. That's our follow on period so, basically, or doing as we have this this period at the end of that their paid for being in the study dismiss, they fell at some survey measures and we thank them so are critical period. Is whether or not they exercise more during those nine weeks, while we're imposing these different rules on them and giving them access to temptation? Bundling, ok, and so what we see is that for the first seven weeks of our study, the full treatment group exercise a significantly more than the control and the group. That's given access to the audio novels and asked to just self imposed rules right in between the two such good news. In a sense

are, actually they look a bit better than control initially, and so that seems like. Maybe people can actually do this for themselves, although there not doing as well as the people who have the full binding commitment that we provided and then- we see a little bit of wear off and then, over seven weeks this is working participants than on the seventh. We go home, it's Thanksgiving break the gems closed when they come back. We look at the data and we see that the effect is completely eliminated. So when they come back, they seem too, garden about their novels, perhaps, and there no longer motivated by temptation bundling. So, on the one hand, this is actually kind of need because it suggests that wanting to know what happens next in your novel may really be what's driving our effects, as we hope, because for separation is the one thing we know reduces cravings, but it also means we have more work to do two things,

about how to reengage people a temptation bundling after time away from the Jim for the people in the first group, the treatment group who can only here the material at the gym. Do they actually have to be working out at the Jim to hear it? Org they just come and get the ipod added a locker and listen to the novel while sitting in drinking milkshake or something that's a great question. When we did a study, we had no way of forcing MA am to work out. While they are listening to the novel, we did actually have their security folks who sit right by the locker where these things are being held, and we asked them whether or not they saw people coming in setting hang out. They said the people are going to block or were coming to work they were in their work. I closed, but that's anecdotal rather than empirical will be really cools if we had fit bets, for instance, on everyone and could actually track how much exercise their doing and I'm doing new research rate. Now now that fits

much more widely distributed than they were. When I ran the study, where we are trying to do things like that, where we actually track physical activity, not just in this case or we could track, is whether or not they enter an exit. Jim awesome and I'm guessing there. So many places you could go if, as you could see, pace in intensity in all different kinds of things of work out, depending on material and in spirit that Exactly are there so many things you can see with it that data, there are also a neat things, the milkman cannon, doing with temptation bundling more generally one thing you could It was imagine building

since an app, for instance, that lets you create certain GEO locations like all the gems you belong to or the only Jim you belong to, where you can access, tempting content on your ipod and then set restrictions that you can say. I can only access this content at those tempting locations and then there's what she calls Jim flicks. Jim flags, as one of my favorite suggested products, so imagine that you took a company like Netflix in and you called it Jim Flax and you let people set aside certain tv shows Jim only access my research suggests that a product like that might be very attractive to coming up, I'm freaking out with radio. What do you think is the most common temptation that is bundled by freakin, I'm afraid you're listeners I like to drink scotch. While I thought laundry like to enjoy call beer likely in the house a drink that I love making, they call it the nectar of the gods

and we explore what Katy milkman calls the fresh start effect like when I wake up. Sometimes I feel sometimes that I'm a new person, I wouldn't budgetary on my birthday, too many servants. My birthday is coming up with another thanks to Pennsylvania, lottery, scratch, ass, pennsylvanians or scratching their way to fund, and we new games every month, big top rises and said enchants drawings, excitements, always in order so Try, Pennsylvania, lottery scratch, offer your ticket to fund and get yours today keep on scratching. Must be eighteen or older. Please play responsibly benefits older pennsylvanians every day, economics radios, brought to you by square. If you run a business, you know how important it is to have a healthy cashflow. That's why

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From W and Y see. This is for economics, radio, here's, your host, Stevens Abner, we are talking with Katy Milkman of the warden school at pen, she's been doing research on temptation bundling and how it can help motivate us to do the things we oughta be doing, but left her own devices may not do. Milkman has also been doing research on what she calls the fresh start effect. So the work I have done on the fresh artifact was actually motivated by giving a talk out at Google a couple of years ago and telling them about some of the different tools I had done. Research on that can be helpful to to getting people to do things like exercise and get flew shots and follow through on various other goals.

So they intend to follow through on, but sometimes fail to and one of the HR folks. I Google asked me this great question was out there. He said we see that there are all these tools available and we'd love to roll them out and try to promote them to our employees, to encourage more long term, focused behaviors, but do the sense of wine. It would be best to deploy these tools. What is the best time- and we just haven't- looked at that and in my research groups. So that's actually what motivated the work I've done on the fresh artifact right and what kind of tools were they trying to roll out so I actually talked about idea of temptation bundling. So that was one of the things I presented. I also presented some of my research showing that if you prompt people to form concrete plans about exactly when they intend to follow through on a given behaviour, in this case it was getting flew, shot or getting

don't ask happy, even in the privacy of their own home, if they're just prompted to think through privately the date and time when they intend to do that that actually increases follow through quite significantly and substantially. So those are the tools that I have just presented and they said. When do we wrote these out and I sat back and scratch my head, and I thought you know what we know about the new year's effect. We do know about the new year's effect that a lot of people make resolutions that they at least try to keep here are a few samples from people we spoke. Am I a resolution for New year's was to smile more ceremony area. Be less more. I mean it with New year's eve. Here and I did start doing yoga and now I do go three times a week and it's only to stop the inevitable decline of my person cause I'm thirty three, but I think it's there. They have done for myself in a long time and it was two years. Is it a rest

listen. If your wife, decisive, can't wear two socks anymore, that was a resolution There are thrown away. We create these resolutions and there's a lot of social support for that kind of thing. So it's not clear that that is anything besides a social, normal social ritual. But I wondered if there might be something more to it and in particular on the things that struck me as that. At the start of a new year, we feel like we have a clean slate. It's the fresh start effect in essence that I feel at the beginning of a new year, is driven by the fact that last year's behind me all my past failures are from last year, and I can think those are not me. That's old me, that's not knew me knew me, isn't gonna make these mistakes, and so that, if that's true, if that's part of what's going on at the beginning of a new year, then there should be lots of other cycles that show that pattern as well. So we should see the same kinds of dissociation from our past failings and same motivation to do better on this cycle at the beginning of a new weak,

getting a new month following birthdays when we feel like we're beginning a new cycle and our own lives following holidays, which may stand apart from other dates and create the start of a new cycle for us personally as well. So talk about the evidence you have and where the evidence comes from what what you go. Looking for, where you getting the data to do that yeah well, so the first, the very first day does that we explore actually was maybe very natural, given the idea originated at Google. The first thing we did is we downloaded searches for the term diet Google and diet by the ways the most popular new year's resolution? It's the thing that we most struggle with, and that applies to me as well, so we almost daily search volume for this term over the course of eight years, which you can get from Google and what we did is we looked us.

Whether or not there were any particular moments when it bounced up and whether or not in fact it was consistent with our hypothesis, which was that people would search more for the term diet at the beginning of a new weak month year and following holidays, and we found indeed that that's exactly the case and that data set. So we see bigger effects for dates that feeling fresh starts and if we look at placebo terms, something like whether news the people often search for, we don't see those patterns or something didn't happening when we look at the term diet. So is our very first exploration. We got all excited about what we sign. We said. Well, let's, let's see that's just information search information gathering what about real behaviour, so we actually went to this data sat on of the visits to the gym by undergraduates at the University of Pennsylvania, which we had at our fingertips and said: maybe we'll see it and Jim visits to and when we looked at that what we saw that people visit the jam, the very same undergraduate. In fact, we can look within student and see that the very soon

undergraduate is more likely to visit the gem at the start of a new weak month year, following holidays and following birthdays with the notable exception of twenty first birthdays and I'll. Let you speculate as to why that might be different, I'm guessing alcohol may be involved, I'm letting you spent wait. I dont have. I don't have any data on exactly why, but you know my speculation may or may not have guns direction Judging by the submissions you sent when we ask for your examples of temptation, bundling I'd say that yes, I'll call may be involved. I like to drink scotch while I for luxury, if they don't work out, I don't drink there

That's my tradeoff! My name is feeling in some and I lived in Sweden and my temptation. Bumble is actually my apartment before going out for drinks with my friends. So ok, so I am thinking of the different ways that one might look at this fresh start. So so one would be that you know the beginning of a new year or maybe a new school term or some new? You know some demarcation of time that feels like your passes behind you in your future, ahead of you and then you embark on this thing and theoretically, that thing that you embark on his better for you, but then talk about the degree to which people fall off and at the implication, is that it's bad to fall off. But I guess I'm thinking. Well, maybe this activity they were trying to change or add two wasn't that important to them. That's interesting yard! I mean there's, there's a lot of follow,

with the years resolutions or with any goal that we are pursuing with anything that requires well. Power as always the need to stop smoking cigarettes and I always revert back to smoking. Couple days after I find resolutions are tough lake. I try to meditate more in the new year. It doesn't go well, but a new yea. You say you want to lose weight or do something like that. Then, by February fell off. People say. That means why even bother in the first place wife and form new year's resolutions. If you're gonna fall off writhing there's a few different responses. That one is you sorry, you can't hit a home run if you dont swing, so it's never gonna work. If you don't start- and I think that that suggests that we want fresh our moments to motivate people and hopefully, eventually they'll actually had the home run

but if they fall off a bunch of times. So that's one answer. Another answer is that sometimes actually the behaviour just takes a tiny bit of effort, so there are some things we can do, that are just a one time decision and they make a huge impact on the rest of our lives. For instance, if you just sign up for a for a one k plan just once then you're gonna be saving forever after or if you just get your flew shot, you only have to do at once a year, and then it has benefits for the remainder of the year. A lot, a lot of different medical procedures have that characteristic where, if you can just get people to do once every so often even a low frequency like coal and ask me once every ten years can be enough to save many lives. So I think we can also think about. The fresh artifact is having a lot of benefits for those kinds of one time, behaviors, with huge, huge, downstream consequences that are

positive, ok, so considering that you ve done a fight this and found in found evidence for it in the data. What can you do about it? How can you use this knowledge to help people make more pro social choices? Yeah? It's a great question will, I think, there's a bunch of different location. So one thing we ve tried to reminding people that are given day is a fresh start. So, for instance, we have one experiment where we reminded people that a certain day was the first day of spring and we experimentally compared people who we reminded a certain day was the first day of spring with another group that we didn't and the the group they got. That first day of spring reminder, was more motivated to pursue their goals and receive reminder about their goal. Specifically,

on the first day of spring, when it was labelled as such, and so you can think about just re framing and given day reminding someone that it is an opportunity for a fresh start as one intervention that might increase engagement and fresh our behaviors. You could also think about just asking people to do things that are good for them on fresh start date, so you might try to roll out. For instance, a planning prompt campaign are offer people an opportunity to sign up for a commitment devices for temptation bundling device on a fresh start date when we know their natural inclination and their motivation to do things like exercise and diet and by the way we also found the fresh art effect with non health related goal. So looking at things like financial goals, educational goals so whatever it is that their striving to do if we provide them with the tools they need at a moment when there feeling fresh, they may be more likely to take advantage of those tools and start a good new habit,

It's ok do let me play devils advocate for a minute. It's more like jerks advocate announcements, devils advocate, but why should smart motivated people like you We have to work so hard. Didn't djinn trick people into taking better care themselves. For instance, why? Not just let darwinian forces do their thing and weed out the people who are too lazy to go to the general to get a vaccine? There are a lot of different answers. One one could be that you simply want to see better outcomes for people who maybe didn't realize what they needed to do, or were too busy to figure out what they need.

To do so. This is one way of helping people who may be really would do us if they have the time and energy in education. Another answer would be that there are huge social benefits rate. So even selfishly we all pay the costs when other people fail to exert the willpower needed to take care of themselves, and so you could even think of a selfish reason for engaging in this kind of research and in providing these kinds of nudges, which is that society is going to pay the cost when bad things happen to people who didn't take care of themselves, but I like to think of it as more altruistic motive. Can I just say for them that I dont really agree with the jerks advocate argument. I just want to hear a chance to say I know I'm on your side, maybe Katy movements, research as inspired you to harness the fresh start effect, but maybe you need one more nudge a bit of further inspiration to follow. If that's it,

we will leave you with some more of your examples that we gathered along the way and that a particular religious person, but during young to poor. I think about The things that I haven't done perfectly well that year and two more things I want to improve upon the next year, my grandmother she die from smoking. Oh, I remember I smoke cigarettes, my friends all his arm in high school. I soon she doubted like overheads like why, like that's it, These figures are again, but now I just hope we but a better solution. Last August, my birthday, I turned twenty five and something that was alive. Tremble for me was supplied grad school. So after I celebrated my birthday. I started with the application process for all their grad schools giving a job is probably the perfect sort of fresh start moment,

generally in the morning, and I bet better decisions I do at the end the evening, but that, like I think, every day, honestly, you can start trash let's say I went out to dinner the night before and a lot of sweets and carved the next day. Awake. And that are being raised above about it Eddie EDA, where better that day, if, as his nurse next week on the show, what would an economist he never ever ever ever put on his own online dating profile. And what might an economist lie about in some of the questions? ass, you. How into deep conversations with your mate an cuddle Lange and things like that? You are

I may have made myself seem a bit more accessible, knows dimensions in an honest. First Edward said how to build the best ever online dating profile. What's next, and friggin I'm sorry, Reaganomics radio is produced by W and Y, see and debonnair productions. Are. Staff includes Gregg Resolve Ski Caroline, English Susie. Luxembourg merit Jacob in Christopher Work with help from David, Herman, Anna Hyatt RIP, Kwan, Daniel De Zola and Paul Schneider. If you want more frequent onyx radio, you can subscribe to our podcast on ice oh, I got a free, economic, Stockholm, real fine lots of radio, a blog, the books and more