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220. “I Don't Know What You've Done With My Husband, But He's a Changed Man.”

2015-09-17 | 🔗
From domestic abusers to former child soldiers, there is increasing evidence that behavioral therapy can turn them around.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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We I of the war, the war was a civil war, the first of two in Liberia, West Africa and began in eighteen. Eighty nine Johnson bore was eighteen years old, This audio is Bremen, ABC miserable fire by some not recover. There is little place too high war was in high school at the time, getting really move up to a vocational school, but he says he was conscripted into the Mp F Ella National Patriotic front of Liberia. That was a rebel group led by Charles Taylor, who would come to be known as an infamously brutal warlord. The MP fell fighting against the government of Samuel dough when the war started Johnson Bore was thrown right into the action. It was just chaotic
because when you are on the phone line, to verify thing, you're thinking about is that you're opening should not be able to overrun. You became a company commander, so I was there people with Dodge, was around when people were killed because our, but the rank, the population of Liberia at the time was barely two million. During the war, roughly a quarter of a million people died. Many of them civilians bore told our producer Christopher Worth about one distinguishing aspect of liberian civil war, the use of child soldiers. There were a lot of child soldiers to understand that we re high unit costs. As be you, small boy unit that were also had about child soldiers, and they are not afraid, the war in a way that they are requested to go, they have nice. life so that fear of death would not be day, especially where some of them are like the kind of taking drugs and out of an astonishing, have arms in there
and so jostling, Google, or we use into Canada, instances to torture. Even if there was a case, where is such a present, to be executed, always wonder, use jostle, adjusted outta did you have to be involved in something like either ordering or of the executioner, torture or anything like that, not ready, but of most likely, because If you are leading to a true and you have a juvenile you, we have a saying that what do you need? Does the community's responsible you d come on we'll always be responsible for this kind of stuff bore was eventually wounded in combat, I feel, like apple have died because I went off. I was on a blood, so as soon as I got a hospital, they had to let put some blood aiming drifts Aimee, but in the scheme of things being did was not the worst thing that could have happened. The Dallas one way that you could get escaped from the wall either you run away or if you I would ask for your, then they let you go because the Nordic actually make use of you and it
but I know I lived a war Charles tailors revels prevailed and he took over the presidency of Liberia for six years. He was eventually convicted of war crimes and crimes against humanity is now serving fifty years british prison after civil wars and what a dozen years of on and off fighting Liberia finally begin to settle down. Elections were held and the country tried to find a new normal, but it had to deal with the fact that generation of its young men didn't really know it. Normal meant. Does the problem that we face? is in my view here because of the number of jobs so go that way. You were with the wall and airy in sunshine. To non community is a very serious issue: the varies very small country, and only about four million people. That's Chris platinum. He is an economist and political scientist at Columbia University who spent time in Monrovia, Liberia's capital it tropical one of the richest country
the world so picture a city in the middle of the swamp and a jungle. Thirdly, Washington DC, except run down run down not just by the tropics but really been done by the war in years of decline. Lackman is essentially a development scholar and therefore pays particular attention to poverty and the associated violence. He works merrily in Africa and is an adviser to liberian government. Liberia has made gained since the wars, but it's hardly flourishing gross national income per capita is four hundred dollars on the: U ends Human Development index. Liberia ranks a hundred and seventy fifth out of a hundred eighty seven countries, adult literacy, is below fifty percent. Life expectancy is only about sixty the homicide rate is about ten.
A hundred thousand people which just but then context, is about double New York cities, but only a little more than half as bad as Chicago. Even so, the? U S, state Department ranks the threat of robbery and political violence in Liberia as high Chris Black, has tried to forecast when and where violence may break out. Part of the problem, it seems, is an artifact of war, so there was nobody whose family wasn't touched by the war. Almost I'm sure every family fit and flee had somebody involved in the war in some way, most people reintegrate very well but years after the war. There's who knows what percent, but some chunk of these young men were still doing really poorly, so you have guys who have lived lives of violence. You haven't reintegrated, some of whom are engaged in crime. Johnson bore with seeing this first hand, he was by now his mid twenties. He had happened upon a couple of humanitarian organisations and he'd been exposed
trauma healing and peace building and he got some training on how to work with troubled ex combatants, who experience love the things he had so our using those gonna bust skill to agitate get into them is within You gonna skills. I have had to discourage them from going back to war, because I was the tuition labourer was like a kind of the war was a form of virus. You copy leave it from our fashion to another issue in different parts of the country. That was how it was an people, capital couldn't jastrow jewels. And what have you? So you find those that were still in the wall. We try to discourage them. Also spread message to a youth around accommodated our voice, now good in two thousand bore and another Ex combatants started, an organisation called the network for empowerment and Progressive Initiative or Nepi. The idea was to help former soldiers and other young men who were in trouble or heading for trouble. Nepi partnered, with law,
major international organizations and at a conference in Washington Dc Johnson, Bore met. Chris Batman sounded to black men as if bores Nepi was having a dramatic impact on the Liberians at work with black men wound up working closely with poor and his colleagues in Liberia. So we can see for himself exactly what they were doing. I think they stumble somewhat accidently onto she, Bt C B, t or cognitive behavioral there, is a form of psychotherapy that tries to teach behavior change without necessarily attacking the underlying psychological routes of that behaviour. The cobbled together curriculum from the U S and who knows where and training manuals and this in that in their own experiences and the experiment of experimental experimented all the time and when I met them almost fifteen twenty years after they left the war, they had this programme that
in to bring in these really outcast young man in one end and then, with some probability, spit out change people today on, now most radio. What's the evidence that people truly can change with something as simple and cheap as C b T also what happens if, besides the therapy, you throw in a cash incentive and could the same kind of behavioral insights be applied to domestic violence, I think one woman in particular said I don't know what you ve done with my husband, but he's a change. Man
from W and Y see. This is for economics. Radio. The past consummate explores the hidden side of everything. Here's your host evened out there in our previous episode. We looked at a couple of programmes in Chicago that use cognitive, behavioral therapy or c b t they keep young men from committing crimes and dropping out of school. One of them was called becoming a man or bam run by Tony Do Vittorio. I was working with these youth who were referred to me for anger issues cutting class shown at their teachers. What have you? A team of researchers from the University of Chicago Crime LAB helped expand the programmes, and importantly, they randomized the treatment, so they could evaluate if it was effective. I think the first I am that we saw these facts, we thought wow. Can this be rice? The criminals Sarah Heller helped evaluate Bam so that for
fear of bam. We saw forty four percent decline in violent crime, arrests and a thirty six percent and in other now violent, non property, non drug arrests. We see increase in school engage read that we think might eventually, once the kids are old enough, improving graduation rates by maybe seventy twenty two percent. The reason see BT was effective, Heller and her colleagues argue is it. It teaches people to stop and think about their paviers in a way that they rarely do. The basic theory rests on something that were calling automata city are. behavior and automatic behaviour is something we all engage in all the time. Right is just behaving without consciously thinking about it, and then you ve done right C B. T teaches people to disrupt those behaviors get some to rephrase their perspective, to think differently, about their negative emotions and how to respond to them. But it seems as if the benefits of sea BT are relatively short, lived that they fade out after a year
now Sarah Heller points out. This doesn't mean the therapy isn't worth while. So, if there's a way to reduce violent crime, even for just a year at a pretty low cost, we should do it and the cost is relatively very low, especially compared with some of the more traditional anti crime pro is the government's tend to favour. Although obviously we know we would love the effects to last forever and so we're sort of working to figure out what comedy of interventions and for how long can help the effects? Last one combination of interventions Chicago Programme didn't try passivity and cash which brings us back to Liberia to join and bore the former company commander in the rebel Army and Nepi the organization He help set up for other former fighters and to Chris black men the Columbia researcher, who was so impressed with Nepi that we want to see at first hand over several years, black men went back and forth between the. U S and Liberia spending several we
at a time in Monrovia. He collaborators, in Jamieson, another economist and Margaret Sheridan psychologists helped poor. and his team refine their curriculum and raise funding they began. recruiting young men who were known troublemakers and they tried it. these men, anger management and self control, using the same kind of therapeutic and role playing exercises used by other sea BT programs, like becoming a man in Chicago. You know what you have to control your anger in it in a case where someone's trying to take provoke you're something nasty happens or somebody insults you, and so they might start in the classroom. This, the very basic. What's the baby step, you take well now I mean, have you to stand up here and now you ve got to insult him right and they know it's a joke and he comes up with some insult everybody laughed so thought a real situation of anger, but the the guy who's insulted now has to come up with something he has to say
or explain what he's going to do and role play, how he's not gonna react, then the group would brainstorm ways to avoid confrontation defuse the situation. They talk about what works, what doesnt work the leaders would teach the former soldiers seemingly simple things: they never learned to do. Go to a bank by food in a supermarket Batman says it was important these guys to change their self image to be able to see himself as part of normal society rather than outcast. So when you look at these guys in the average guy that we recruited was dressed in a little bit rat they had got your head. How do how to take the above it wanted anything about is food and drugs, and this has no that stealing
bad. They know that drug dealing is bad, at least that side. He considers it a bad thing. They know that drug using is considered bad, and so they don't disagree on what the moral principles are in society. They just don't necessarily believe that's their group. Why that's bad for you, but that's not bad for guys like me, and so that was their image. That was a shelf image, and so the goal was to actually get them to try thinking like mainstream society members. So, as part of the programme, the men were encouraged to clean themselves up where clean clothes, the programme even offered free haircuts guy comes in with literally just a razor blade in a chair and will shake off your dread so that Europe basically have a shaved head, which is sure the respectable look in Libya. What Lamb and wanted to learn was just how much a person's self image could change at this point and how effective it would be to teach life skills to adult men self control. For instance, there has been a lot of research on how self controlled develops in childhood, like the famous marshmallow experiments by Walter Michel, young child
and were sat in a room and offer one marshmallow chickadee right away or if they chose to wait fifteen minutes alone in the room without eating the marshmallow they get eat too marshmallows as a reward for their patience. This audio is from a cps news report. If you have to do what you like, one of which you have and they look after twenty years it these children's life outcomes and they find that the ones who display more self control as a preschooler even younger, are more self control associated with better jobs, better pay, less crime and when they ve had programmes that try to build these skills foster these character. Skills in very young children like in pre school, though seem to have a big pay off in terms of less crime and better work. have happier lives later in life. So this is terrific. We know this is really really valuable, but I think there's been an assumption that adults,
are no longer malleable and we need to throw out under the bus and put all our social spending into preschoolers to have a better future generation. Rather than say, this guys can actually change the sea BT programmes in Chicago approved, remarkably effective with criminal inclined teenagers Would a similar programme work with criminally inclined adult men in Liberia to find out black men bore and their team set up recruiting effort. They approached fifteen hundred men in Monrovia, aged roughly fifteen to thirty five who, more or less admitted to being involved in criminal activity or, what's known in Liberia as the hustle Latin says, this could include anything from pocketing and robbery to some other kind of scam, often in combination with some legal ways to make money, small jobs. Although farming and the fifteen hundred men they approached they got about a thousand take.
as for the sake of the research, Latin randomize them there's gonna be a lottery. Then we explain that so you you're, not it so you're not weaken folly. Overtime can over a year, because we want to see how this works out, and so you gonna play with the call lucky ticket in Liberia Black men also want to try another element that the Chicago researchers didn't use: cash incentive, some of the practices, the study would be given two hundred dollars. I bring to It was a long way to hundred bucks is about three or four months of what they could learn from their so called hustle. So you think of it like four months of wages, and we did it for two reasons. So first cash was actually a way to measure a change in behavior. So, if you're more self disciplined, if you're more persevere in a few, more self controlled as a result of this therapy, maybe we'll see it show up in your spending. Maybe you're more like to spend it on a small business and less likely to spend it on booze or a meal in the market that money most of which, by the way,
provided by american or other western aid agencies and foundations. It could also be used as investment capital. Now you can buy a bunch of scratch cards and saw them now. You could buy things in bulk and sell it at higher profit. Now you and have a little shoeshine kid. So here's how the experiment was set up of the roughly one thousand men who were recruited one quarter of them. Two hundred fifty won't get any help at all. They become the control group Another quarter of the men would get C B. T one quarter, get c b t and the twenty cash no court of the men would get just the tuna dollars cash that way black men could measure which of the treatments if any, were effective Johnson bore was among the first to see the results, the reserve of very much remarkable. It was very successful
criminal behaviour fell substantially among all three treatment groups. If you got the cash or if you got the therapy or she got both within a month, you had shaped up. You are committing a lot less crime, so you're going from about one crime a week to half a crown. We that such a thing- and you are less likely to be aggressive- you were less likely to be selling drugs by about half so twenty percent of the country
group, I believe, was selling drugs, and that was but ten percent fewer seed. One of the treatments. Now you might argue that if you ve just been given to under dollars, you have less need to sell drugs, but still these were the results after one month, but what the results look like after one year. It turns out that the effects had diminished after a year for the men who had received just thereupon or just cash, but the men who received both therapy and cash we're still doing much better, and what we found is that these changes in their crime and all these things we call antisocial behaviour, is like aggression and cheating and things of this nature and everyday violence. Those were still down a lot by boat. Forty four Two percent in the groups had received both cash and therapy as Batman suspected receiving a big cash infusion that some of the men start up small businesses, the guy made the most and he went out of town to distillery bought a giant barrel of some kind of alcohol,
back and then sold it by the cupful and made killing and yet latin points out. A lot of men who received cash, whether with their appear without had lost all of it? One reason Is that robbery and burglary are pretty common Liberia, weapons own office in Monrovia, was broken into his computers were stolen, but as blackmail interprets the data from his study even if men lost their money, they were still better off because they got to adjust their self image. Cb tiers of practice to the guys who got the cash got to practice being a business. Man had to put self control and action by making self Control decision that money reinvesting profits. They got to appear to themselves into the community like normal, peaceful members of society, and so even after that was stolen away from them after a few months, it's like maybe an extra aid or twelve weeks a practice. Maybe it's like doubling
monetary therapy they had Latmos, believes this is groundbreaking territory. We think this is the first time anyone is try thing like this in a developing country, least of all a fragile state with this kind of population. One major kaweah is that the study relies on self reported data, which we have repeatedly warned you on. This showed to be lira. In this case the participants simply told researchers weather it committed a crime or use drugs and what they spent their money on. Indeed, black was worried the subjects we're just telling the researchers what they wanted to hear when we first saw these results. We thought no way. This is just to big. We don't believe. No one else is going to believe so. As a precaution, Latvian set up validation, group, researchers followed around some of the subjects, roughly one in twelve of the men who were enrolled. They hang out several days talk with the friends and family black men says they could see. No,
difference between what the men had told the researchers and what they actually did, which of course makes it easier to believe the data on the men who weren't followed black men also points out that what we generally consider a more concrete form of data arrest records from Chicago, for instance, often exist in a sort of grey zone. This is true any crime study. So in the U S we say we feel better. We have arrest data, but I think the one thing maybe events of the last year in the? U S really brought to mind is actually the guy's arrest. That doesn't necessarily mean you committed a crime might mean you looked like the wrong kind of person, so you can't believe that data and you can't believe our data. They might just be telling us what we want to hear so always take all of these things with a green assault. We're very cautious, but you know we asked these guys multiple times, Billy relationship patrician we went and me like, hung out with them for as long as we conceivably could without booth feeling really really weird found. No sense that
Anything was amiss with what we were learning and again, even if the liberian study was half as effective as it was at twice the price, it still be pretty cheap. It costs about five hundred dollars per person. Five hundred dollars per person is for both programmes. Will therapy in cash is a bargain compared to most development programmes. So whenever skills training programme usually costs a thousand or two thousand dollars and the other we to think of it is in a, we saw. Crimes drop by boat go from fifty crimes per person, twenty five grams per person. So this is basically twenty dollars a crime, so if what they were stealing in each crime was worth twenty dollars or more on average than societies actually better off before. We even think about the changes in these guys other aspects of their lives like less aggression, the silence so even though these Bt studies in Liberia and Chicago are relatively tiny. Crisp Lackman believes
it's time to consider C, B, T as a viable tool in preventing crime, especially if, as in both Liberia and Chicago cases. You can target the biggest troublemakers. You can find have evidence from Chicago, and we have evidence from the bureau and we have evidence from a lot of incarceration and other types institutions in the? U S. So that's not enough to say: let's do this everywhere, but it actually looks a lot better than a lot of things we do and it fits the weights ecologists think about human beings were priests similar everywhere. So we think we should try this in a couple more places before going gangbusters and scaling up and which is our plan, but I'm up optimistic. This has a lot of potential for those ten or twenty or thirty thousand highest risk men in any. Given urban centres,
coming up after the break c b. T is not the only new idea of being used. Try to prevent crime. What might happen if, for instance, you re, a simple message on a wall for people went up in a police holding cell when you have literally a captive audience could be right, a message which might help an offender think differently about what they ve done about, who they are and fewer enjoying this part cast. You should probably just go ahead scribe. Do it on Itunes or where you get your part guests can also help us out by writing. A review were giving it a rating. My personal favorite is defined our reading and the real review. But you know your results may vary. You can also find more for economic stuff at surprise, for economics, dot, com.
If you have listened even a handful of our previous episodes. You know we are fond of discussing clever, simple solutions that are built on a fairly scientific understanding of human behaviour. In most cases, that means we patrol the periphery of academia, maybe private industry, but occasionally you ll, run across a government or least government unit. That also believes in such behaviour incites what might be called such a unit about the behavioral insights team. That's what they go bite in the UK, where, of scholars and other clever people have been working for several years now on injecting behavioral science into public policy. You may have heard is mentioned the behavioral inside steam. In the past, there also known as the nudge unit after the book nudge by Richard Sailor and casts unseen. It has become a bit of a Bible in how behavioral tricks or nudges can help a government increase. The rate of pension. Take
showing up for court organ donation, recruitment of soldiers to the army at Simon Router. He is head of home affairs, security and international development for the behavioral insights team, the remit of the team was really to investigate how some of the nascent findings in fields of behavioral economics and experimental psychology could be applied to public policy making, in the broadest perspective, to see how could deliver better results for the country, even though the Nigerian it was personally cheered on by Prime Minister David Cameron and was set up principally within the walls of number ten. There is a lot of scepticism from british law makers, the media, the general public, but what became apparent quite quickly was that we were able to demonstrate robust impacts of the work that we did surprising everybody, because we saw quite big positive impacts, positive gains from reasonably
oh cost interventions, one of their early big wins, had to do with tax compliance. We demonstrated that making really small and simple changes to the way tax letters were written tax letters that reminded people that they owe tax to the government significantly increased the speed at which people repaid their taxes, for instance, based on the knowledge that the herd mentality is very poor among us humans. The nudge unit added some very simple language to these letters. It read nine out of ten people. in the UK have already paid their taxes you're. One of the few people who haven't that leads to a significant increase in people paying their tax
mean when we get into the little bit more. We see the different messages have different effects for people who have different amounts of money. So, for example, if you turn average population that actually these taxes are really important because they pay for roads, schools cetera. It doesn't make much difference in fact that I think we found a significant impact tool, but for people with debts of over thirty thousand pounds, it makes a big impact. The behavioral insights team has since become a private company with, as it says, a social purpose, though it still partly on by the british government. It is even established satellite units in Sydney and just this summer in New York, when we were chatting with Simon Rita, we asked him if he knew of any good work being done using behavioral insights to reduce crime, as we ve been exploring in Liberia in Chicago. He mentioned a british anti domestic violence,
four called project: Cora were cautioning against relationship. Abuse is built on the recognition that not all acts of domestic violence are the same. The kind of domestic abuse, domestic violence that attracts a lot of people, tension. That of course gives rise to the greatest concern by both police and the public at large actually a relatively rare phenomenon: that's Heather's, Strang, she's research, director at Cambridge University Institute criminology early around. Perhaps two percent of all cases of domestic abuse, domestic violence that comes to police attention,
is at that high hum high frequency level. Meanwhile, some eighty percent of domestic abuse arrests are for what Strang calls a low level of abuse in about half of those cases. Indeed, there's no physical violence at all and nothing in fact to charge an offender about, so we know that there is still a lot of misery and love hum associated with those lower level incidents and, of course, a huge amount of police resources expended on those cases. The strength point is that the criminal justice system has tended to not make that distinction. in responding to domestic abuse calls it's important to understand when victims call the police in relation to domestic incident. What is it that they want to happen? The assumption is that they call the police because they want their partner rested, but in fact,
we find that only around twenty percent of victims actually wanted their offender arrested and even smaller proportion wanted prosecuted, even though a hundred percent of these offenders were arrested, because that's what happens when you call the police, but two sets of them simply wanted the police to calm the situation and almost two thirds said that their primary reason for cooling was actually to get help for their partner rather than punishment for them, because all of those two thirds actually wanted the relationship to continue, and that is something that perhaps is often overlooked in this field. In terms of getting help for the partner, judges sometimes do
require an offender to get counselling. But that's just for that. Two percent of high level abuse cases that actually make it to court say you have a very slow, number of cases, usually quite serious cases, and usually some very resentful offenders who believes that they are very high Dunbar by the prices that they experience so then a very positive frame of mind, to undertake this program. They are often quite owner of this program, some with some lasting twenty six weeks. Almost nobody ever finishes them until they're back in court for failing to complete the program
every evaluation of these programs, according to Strang, shows that they haven't worked, that they have introduced the likelihood that those offenders will commit domestic abuse again so a few years back the police constabulary in Hampshire, that's a county in Southern England to try something different. They partnered with a local charity to create some workshops aimed at that much larger group. Low level domestic abuse offenders. This is an unusual programme in many ways, because it is not punitive in its orientation. The objectives to get the participants to understand something about. Why they behave as they have done. The way in which they use violence in their relationships and too stand really worked? Emotional abuse is all about.
It's also to get them to recognise their own physical symptoms of anger and feelings. Lee to the anger and then on to violence and what we We are interested in investigating. Was the effectiveness of this programme in tackling that huge bulk of calls that come to police attention so Heather's Strang set up a randomize control trial to measure the effectiveness. Here's how it works. When british police are called on domestic abuse complaint, the offender is generally rested. Let's assume for the sake of pronoun use, he is a mail, as most offenders are there, not all, of course, then, as part of this new approach he's diverted into what's called conditional cautioning, that is essentially
promise by offenders that they'll be on their best behaviour and at that point they are randomly assigned either to simply be required to be of good behaviour for four months or they are randomly assigned to, of course, be of good behaviour for four months, but also undergo this intervention. This intervention consists of two workshops about four weeks apart. Each workshop is about food flowers with a break for lunch, it's on Saturday mornings and they're held in a hotel, because the work shall provide is believed that it's very important to show a kind of respectful attitude to these offenders. its restricted only to adult male offenders and to those who admit the offence, and they must have no prior record of violence towards victim
in the preceding two years it's also restricted to men who abuse their intimate partners, not other family members, and the victims have to agree that the treatment won't put them in further danger in the beginning, Strang says the men are reluctant to engage and the facilitators expect. This is normal, There is often initially a lot of vigour. blaming a lot of excusing of behaviour and they don't confronted direct plea they allow the participants enough room enough space to talk themselves out to explain why they behaved as they have and, of course they hear tee as stories of all the other people in the room as well, and by careful questioning by the facilitators about different
ways in which they perceive their relationship with their victim operating rather than any direct confrontation. There is a slow kind of unpacking of what appears to be going on and as an event You ate her. We are getting astonishingly, good results. How good is astonishingly, good Strang has been looking at four hundred domestic abuse cases and half of them at least two years have already passed since the workshops began compared to the men who didn't get. The workshops was a forty percent reduction in committing further domestic abuse and was a twenty percent reduction and other crimes. We have interviewed many of the victims.
These cases have been dealt with this way and they themselves indicates that there has been a marked improvement in the behaviour of their partners following the Simon Router, from the behavioral insights team, read through the findings generated by Strang and her colleagues. I think one woman in particular said, What you ve done was with my husband is a change man, Heather Strang, didn't necessarily think of the domestic abuse intervention as cognitive behaviour, therapy or c b t, but she does see a lot of commonality in getting people to think about and understand their behaviour green. people around to a greater degree of self knowledge about the way. They behaving in the impact of their behaviour seems to be key to this programme think people to realise what leads to the offence and the ramifications of the offence, the effect on the offender
be a far more powerful way of reducing re offending than just the threat of punishment. The point says router is that people can change. I'm a big believer that is possible But the way we think about ourselves, no matter what stage in life has a big impact on our behaviour and on that front, the behavioral insights team is currently planning a new crimes. trial in another part of England, someone that we work with in the police in West Midlands, she superintendent, Attics Murray. He came to us. I've been working with him on a number of a number of areas and he spotted the opportunity to consider how we best making use of the time that we have with offenders her in police custody, on average route, assess offenders and about fifteen hours in police custody. How we using that opportunity, I mean you have literally a captive audience. So let's think about what we can do. The West Midlands police superintendent had been thinking. He observed that actually, when we
hold offenders in police custody. They tend to stare at black wolves inside a so. What could we right there? What could they re there we all know that advertising and marketing, if done right, can profoundly affect our future behaviour. So what kind of message written on holding cell wall might help change and offenders future behavior? What if that message seemed like something written by one of the previous occupants of the cell, so the message might read five years ago on this day I was here. Let you are now- and this is what I done This is me looking sad kind of moody kind of tough, but actually this is the impact that my actions were having on those who are close to me, my children, my parents, cetera. Then I discovered that actually, I try and do this thing whatever it is, and I work at it. It's gonna make it better and The story goes on and the guide does
what it does and all of a sudden he can improve. He can change and and life much better for him. And his family, and I thought that Be quite a nice thing to see if we can prompt offenders- who found themselves in that situation just to reflect on their actions and to reflect on whether or not they can actually do something a bit differently and maybe to try and shift the offender Maybe from the mindset of I've, done this action, because this is who I am. I am a criminal. Therefore, this is what I do into a mindset of this something that I've done, but it does necessarily need to define my life. So this building, some of the work of Karl Dweck, whose done some action work on a something she refers to as growth mindsets and them. The hypothesis is that People really understand how they can work on something and improves themselves the more likely to achieve that. Then, if they believe that
they made a certain way and that way defines how they behave among the many potential virtues of posting messages like these is the cost. it is very low there already gathering the data that already the cells? you know we're not really investing that much to try and test the effectiveness of this, but do, you believe in the approach trying to offenders that actually this isn't you. This is a behavior. If you want to change it, you can then be looking to see Messages on cell walls leads to lower rates of rearrest. If police officers are spending list, I am pacifying angry prisoners to that point. Router says that projects like this one, which grew It is a little weirder than the typical them. Intervention have not always captured the donation of senior government officials. A few years ago, we have a great idea and would go to the relevant ministry, and that say, that's really ensure thing, but I'm busy, but rue DE says the
separatist generally warmer among police officers and others on the front lines of delivering public sector services the apple? It was much greater among them because I could see she's gonna, help them do their jobs and once you run a trial, all of a sudden, you get some good results. Honestly them since then interested router believes that behavioral nudges approving so effective that they might even work in one of the thorniest realms of law enforcement, fighting extremists, as this hypothesis around psychological inoculation, is what it's called, and the hypothesis is that you give younger people, particularly in those whose opinions of the world in everything haven't been quite formed, rigidly yet ideas of pressure the ideas that are so ridiculous, that it's kind of easy for them to dismiss them, so you know o
all women, a stupid because they have long half or something ridiculous like that, and the hypothesis is that once the cognitive process starts to read, but this and think more logically about it, it becomes more resistant to slightly more sophisticated arguments of prejudice that it may have the miss pleasure to hear later This is an interesting angle. Wishes is worthy of a further proceed, in fact, Chris Platinum, lumber researcher who works in Liberia. He says he's hurt people in the? U S, state Department who want to know whether cognitive behavioral therapy might be helpful in countering violent extremism. It's a slight exaggeration, but if you talk about development project x to stay, parliament or USDA Dear Member, the US government there's a fifty percent chance that they say oh well, that work in Afghanistan or will that work against terrorists because on some level, this is where right or wrong
where a lot of the attention is focused, and so anything that says we can change the person. We can essentially re socialize people who are about violence into having different identity. That sounds tempting because some of these extremists organizations are essentially offering people if a particular self image there offering them something immaterial. That seems very valuable.
and this programme programmes like this might be that in reverse this week and last week we ve been looking at new ideas for crime prevention. We all know an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, although in the case of crime, it may be more like a ton of cure, just think of all the costs associated with crime for the victim for society. For the criminal, the costs are financial, but also psychic and their huge. What's encouraging about the crime prevention stories we ve been hearing with different about these stories. Is it these treatments are working on? People have already started getting into trouble juvenile delinquency in Chicago former child soldiers and Liberia. Domestic abuse, offenders in Britain and the treatment helps turn them around most people who do bad things violent things, presumably aren't doing them for pleasure.
gets a fighter, beats up a spouse or kill someone it's generally because they ve lost control. They ve made a rash in poor decision. So can the modern boom, indecision, science and behavioral science help change the way we think about crime itself? I would argue that the evidence we put forth from Chicago in Liberia and Britain suggests the answer is yes, in fact, it suggests that the way we think about crime and punishment generally is perhaps wildly hopelessly outdated, like performing the balmy on anybody has got a really bad case of the blues because of our inability, prevent more crime, especially among people who have already committed some? Do we routinely turn small time offenders into life on criminals, return prisons and death housing projects? Have we turned our police forces into a de facto after
an army whose primary remit is too weak for bad things. To happen then tried around of the offenders. That's not what police were originally intended to do in a civilised society in Britain, in eighteen, twenty nine, Sir Richard Mean wrote instructions to the new police of the metropolis, which begins the primary object of an efficient police. Is the prevention of crime, the next that of detection and punishment of offenders? If I'm his committed to these ends. All the efforts of police must be directed as the former London cop Stephen Colvin Rights in a forthcoming metamorphosed. Why did the policemen cross the road? So why, then I wondered. Did my basic training not include any crime prevention, not one minute of my whole. Sixteen weak initial training programme was allocated to the subject. Instead, the syllabus focused exclusively on catching the bad guys or more precise catching
bad guys after the crime had been committed. All this is made me want to make a future episode, may be several episodes actually about policing and crime working title, what our crops for it. Here your ideas on this topic from any angle at all or any suggestions for what kind of stories we should tell what kind of data we should pursue, write to us at radio at for economics, dot com or give us a shout on twitter. As always many thanks. Fr Economics Radio is produced by W and my c in Dublin productions. Today's episode was produced by Christopher Worth. The rest of our staff includes urban ganja. J count merit Jacob Gregg result: Ski Caroline, which Alison Hockenberry and Caution Mihail. We help this week from met fiddler. If you
more friggin, I'm afraid you can subscribe to Pakistan Itunes or go to free, cannot start com, we'll find lots of radio blog the books and more hither, Stephen Dublin again one more thing. If you like for economics, radio, I think you'll also like the latest episode of people, I mostly admire the podcast hosted by my freedom expressing co author, Steve Levin. Here's what it sounds like a guest today, Sue bird. She collects championships she's for W Nba championships. Five euro, the best about championships to ensure a champion
for International Basketball Federation World CUPS and for limping gold medals. I'd love to talk about the economics of professional best about so the average player in the NBA made eight point three million dollars into doubt the nineteen and in the W Nba the average with eighty thousand is frustrating just now. I think. Actually, if you look at twenty twenty. Our minimum is now higher, but we all put in the same amount of work. So is it hard to swallow, knowing that somebody else's work is being rewarded at times by I live in reality. I understand business and economics. Some people look at us as like charity. They go will will help them out like an it in a terrible what sense, not unlike this business
vestment way and we think do look at us as an investment immediately its talked about how we don't make money, and it's like fifty years ago in the NBA, did either, but people are willing to make that investment get behind it and growing people. I mostly admire you can find on your favorite Pakistan Hither, Stephen dubbing again, one more thing. If you liked the episode you just heard, we think you like something else in the Friggin Amis radio network. Look for this interview on the new pod cast people. I mostly admire with host Steve. Let go my guest today Subaru. She collects championships she's for W Nba championships, five euro, the best while championships to end she ate championships for
International Basketball Federation World CUPS in four Olympic Gold medal. I would think that, in order to be the player you are, you would have to be a person who actually gets better under pressure rather than worth. Well. Obviously, there are people who are known for heading big. Shots are known for playing, while in big gains that exists for sure, but I think we kind of frame it the wrong way. It's not that you're gonna make nine at it. it's that you might make three at a ten, but somebody else's making zero it's on whose most successful. It's like who's. The most successful the least successful? That is people. mostly admire you can find it on your favorite podcast app subscribe now, so that you don't miss single episode,
Transcript generated on 2021-01-30.