it's always important to remind ourselves that you could be wrong right? Productivity is acute everything pinpointing what it is that some are able to do much better than other individuals. I know what musical town looks like I know I don't have a fundamental difference between grit and happy was theres. Many things I love about at by turns into animals are, brings out the best and worst of US I'm Stephen governor. This is for economic radio and we are continuing now with self improvement. Last week we tackled productivity, musician big difference between being busy and being productive but you ve all mastered productivity, we're moving on to something a bit more ambitious, how to become great and just about anything because that's

but she told us he wanted. I really love the ability to become an expert performer. I compete in this. What of power lifting, and so, if I could better perform in that sport that would suit may be while most like to accomplish. I would like to improve and fair lad presenting my work in front of an audience. I would most like to shoot below ninety for the first time and then build upon that success haste even than the rest of the freak atomic steam this astir, but learn from met from another Philippines. Almost Devon we want to work up. My guitar planes skills. So how do I do it? How do you do it? How do you attain excellence in anything Is it all about the genes and natural born talent, or is there an actual science of expertise. So my name is the sand Parkman, and I am a psychologist and I work ass, a teacher and a supervisor here in Denmark.

Many lives that North of Copenhagen, which is the capital of Denmark Boardman, is forty two married with two kids about eight years ago. She and an american colleagues were studying what they saw as a lack of progress in their profession and what can see when we look at the research is that the outcome of psychotherapy hasn't really improved over the last forty years. And out that had us puzzled, so we we started looking in other directions to try and figure out why or what would make us improve and then came across Candice Erikson's work on deliberate practice, hello, Anders hi Stephen. How are you I'm doing very well, and that is Kate Anders Eriksson. Professor of psychology Floris that university and tell Florida Ericsson is the man.

The hour on today show will get back to him soon. It was his research on something called deliberate practice that got the danish psychologist. Suzanne Bergmann excited had been planned, through all the literature on deliberate practice, but it still seems a bit abstract when you read it. Hard for me to really understand what it felt like. So we started talking about how Could we try this out on ourselves and after this guessing this for a while, we decided if we are going to study the process. It needs to be not our work, because we too close to our work to be able to see it. So we decided to pick up something else outside of our work and then apply the principles of deliberate practice. So Boardman wanted to use deliberate practice to try to improve it, something but something personal matter profession. What should she do when I was a kid? I had this dream of becoming

famous singer her favorite singer. It was Whitney Houston, she was amazing, but the dream got deferred and then life took over. So instead I became psychologists and had a family and had a job now, however, years later, as part of her job Boardman thought that maybe I should give it go and see if it was actually possible to improve my singing improve my voice, so she got back into it. The first thing to do was record herself see what she sounded like. I started using this karaoke programme and I it singing and then I started listening and it was real. Her for

So does that mean that Suzanne Boardman just didn't have the tools, or maybe the natural talent, to be good at what you want to be good at or was our way to become less horrible? Maybe to become even great from W and why see studios this is freakin comics radio, the pod, castor, explores the hidden side of everything. Here's your house Stephen dogma. The research psychologist Anders Ericsson has just published along with CO author Robert pooled,

book called peak secrets from the new science of expertise So, let's pretend for a moment that I'm skeptical off the bat- and I say well, professor Is there a science of expertise that sounds like a bit of an all reach? Perhaps had you respond to that? Well, I think this is what what is exciting here about our work is that for the first time, We really have been studying and more objective ways pinpointing what it is that some people are able to do much better than other individuals amount. The many and diverse expert performers that Eriksson and his colleagues have studied ballet

sir dimness and all sorts of athletes lot of coach with look that chest: expert surgeons, doctors, teachers, musicians, taxi drivers, recreational activities like golf and even theirs- research on scientists. Let me admit that I've been fascinated for years by Erikson's research. I was introduced to it by this guy governor how you doin Steve Levitt is my for economics friend and Co. Author P is an economist at the university Chicago so lever? I still remember very well the day, maybe ten years ago, when you called me up- and you said you had a great idea- column that we were writing any centres about this big swedish psychologist, you'd met while you're on sabbatical at Stanford. I think I found him Anders Ericsson. What was it about? Anders and those conversations you had with him in his research. It got you so excited. He was infectious, his ideas in his enthusiasm just

set me on fire and end with interest, and because he studied topic that I I hadn't really thought could be studied like expertise in and learning the beauty of Anders he he's really amazing academic and the senses. He just was so interested in what did in and also so interested in the truth and unwilling to be challenged, Do you remember I member? I had lunch with them and I immediately came back. I called you on the phone. If it we ve got right about this. Guy he's amazing. We did write about him in a freak and mix column for the New York Times magazine was called a star is made. It came on the most popular things we ever row. I think, because it asked very basic question- is the thing that we all called the part there really revenue with me is the idea that haven't hard work. No one is really great. Had anything. That's an interesting and sat with we'd like to think that Wayne, Gretzky or Michael Jordan

Wayne Gretzky or Michael Jordan or Taylor. Swift just emerge as servants, but they don't. If you start with someone with tat and another person who has no talent if the person with talent work just as hard as a person without talent. Most for certain they're, going to have a better outcome so far measure is true, virtuosity, true expertise. It seems unlikely to me that This populist version of oh, you don't have to be good. You just have to try hard. I think that's probably a fallacy, but I firmly believe the other direction, which is that If you don't try hard, no matter how much time you have, there's always going to be someone else who has a similar amount of town who outworks you and therefore out the form to exactly here's Anders Ericsson again, we actually find that with the right, training. Anyone the jewel will be able to acquire abilities. That will prevent

live as only attainable if you had the a kind of genetic falleth would it be fair to say that the the kind of over increases of your work is that this thing we tend to call talent is in fact or an accumulation of ability that is caused by what you ve labelled, deliberate practice. I think that That is a nice summary here of what we're finding from In thirty years, Eriksson and his colleagues around the world have studied people who stand out in their field. They conducted lab experiments in interviews. They ve collected data of every sort, all in service of answering a simple question when someone is very good at something, how did they get so good if you can figure that out? Thinking goes than any of us can use those sites

energies to also get much better at whatever we're trying to do. You don't necessarily need to have been born with a special talent, especial ability something like perfect pitch or absolute pitch. That's the ability to identify or produce a particular musical notes, with no reference point it's an incredibly rare ability, roughly one in ten thousand people, thought to have it and while having perfect pitched doesn't guarantee you'll become a great musician or composer. You can be a big help. Consider when the most acclaimed composers in history, and I'm a day S. Motor Mozart is famous for his ability to actually listen to any kind of sound and actually tell you what kind of note that sound corresponded to

That's him like a magical ability. The was linked to his ability to be outstanding. Composing playing music. But Ericsson is three points to make about months are the first is that perfect pitch does not necessarily seem to be in eight its teachable, although it helps to start early as evidence. Ericsson points to research showing that perfect pitch is much work, in countries like Japan, China, in those countries where you're, actually speaking tonal languages, where the tone inflows this the meaning of words. It's gonna be much more frequent. Meaning people are true, from a very early age to identify pitcher, well, that's the only way you can identify the meaning of the words, because an mandarin, the difference between different words, this just the difference in their tone.

So you actually need to be able to acquire that general ability and what people have found as that have a very high degree of individuals who exhibit perfect pitch in those countries is becoming increasingly clear that that is actually something that any the visual, seemingly with the right kind of training situation, can actually choir as long as they can the training early on basically between four and six so rather than perfect pitch being this incredibly rare innate ability, it is a teachable ability if you know how to teach it exactly. A second point about Mozart. Ericsson argues that as great as he was having nothing to do with perfect pitch that he wasn't necessarily born that way.

Mozart became Mozart by starting, very young and training long and hard. We may think of them today as a freak of nature. But Ericsson says: if you compare the kind of music pieces that Mozart can play adverse ages, to today's Suki train children. He is not exceptional. If anything is relatively average. Did you hear that Mozart, as a young musician, compared to today's good young musicians, would be relatively average? How can this be? This relates to the third point about what's her for his time. He was excellent, but over time we humans generally become more excellent. Standards of excellence have risen, often a lot in the book peak.

Some rights of a more recent example. Here, let me read you a particularly interesting paragraph in the early nineties, thirty's Alfred Quarto was one of the best known flask of musicians in the world, and his recordings of Japan's twenty four, a tubes were considered the definitive interpretation today teachers offered those same performances sloppy in marred by Miss notes as an example of how not to play Chopin with critics complaining about quarters careless technique in any professional penis is expected to be able to perform the etude with far greater technical skill and alone. Cartel. Indeed, Anthony Thomas seen, the music critic at the New York Times once commented that musical ability has increased so much since core time that Quarto would probably not be

committed to Juilliard. Now we have similar developments in any of the sports in order to qualify I too, the Boston marathon? If you could produce that kind of time, it would be competitive at the early Olympics. That's right in order to just qualified to run the Boston marathon, today, a male in the eighteen, thirty four year old group task to have run a three hour five minute marathon. That's only about six minutes, slow, than the winner of the marathon in the first modern limpets in eighteen. Ninety, six, the current marathon world record two hours two minutes and fifty seven second set- is nearly fifty six minutes

faster than the Olympic Gold Medalist in eighteen, ninety six or any improvements in golf which this year is returning to the Olympics. After more than a century in the one thousand nine hundred summer Olympics, the men played two hundred and eighteen rounds, the american golfer Charles Sands, when the gold medal with scores of eighty two and eighty five which these days when catch on a good Highschool team in some parts of the country, yet the equip

in ball have changed a lot, but still the undeniable fact whether its gaol for running the marathon of playing the piano is that as a species, we have improved a lot it just about everything. How have we been selectively breeding for talent perhaps? But that is not what Anders Ericsson thinks is largely responsible. He thinks we ve got so much better, primarily because we ve learned how to learn and that if you study the people who have learned the best and if you codify the techniques and strategies, if they use, then we can all radically improve. But let me warn you: there is no more Jack bullet improvement comes only with practice, lots and lots and lots of practice. You may have heard of the ten thousand our rule, the idea that you need to practice for ten thousand hours to become great something that idea originates from the research of Anders

and and his colleagues. They were studying the most accomplished young musicians. At a german academy, we found that the average of that elite group was over ten thousand hours by the time the reach twenty coming up on for economics, radio, what you know and dont know about the ten thousand, our rule as popularized in the book outliers by come Gladwell and we try to sort out a little disagreement between Gladwell and Andrews Erics disagree. It is strong a word. His goal is different from I also we lay out the rules of deliberate practice so that you too can become excellent. I think That is one of the most important pieces that were advocating and Will our danish psychologist friend ever be able to sing like this I would say

yeah. Everybody, I'm ticket Sumter, and I'm an actress and most recently you can see me on ABC mixed fish. I this is tie Randolph and I'm the boss, a cabin hearts left out loud network, and we, the host of the sugar a sweet space where we are she to indulge on topics. We sometimes get left out of its face by bore and about brown mom. This is a place of community where we want you to feel lots of love, peace and laughed aloud I was pregnant someone- those I oh when our hair, when I was in labour, I was like I was having a orgasm grow airs go now, some of you now somewhere baling, maybe you ve not actually have an eye. This exists. We space Irma

like us to see ourselves and be ourselves: get ready to open up top, laugh even cry with Sweet shook him on the ship is out now. Listen on stitches, apple podcast, wherever you get your pat gas, I'm not even demand? This is for economics. Radio Anders Ericsson is a psychologist Florida State University. He has spent the past few decades researching what is called expert performance translation. He tries to figure out how people who are really really good at something got that way. His book is called.

Peak secrets from the new science of expertise. The secrets really boil down to one word practice, not just volume of practice, so that will get into that later, but the quality and the nature of the practice. There is purposeful practice, for instance purposeful practice. Is when you actually pick a target, something that you want to improve and you find a training, every that would allow you to actually improve that particular aspect, purposeful practice, very different from Playing a tennis game or if you're, playing basketball scrimmages, because when you're playing there is really no target where you are actually trying to change something. Perfectly where you have the opportunity of repeating it, an actual refine it so. You can assure that you will improve that particular aspect and then there's deliberate practice. We think of deliberate practice require

teacher that actually has had experience of how to help individuals reach very high levels of performance, I wanna go through one by one, the components of deliberate practice and have you expect in a little bit more, if necessary, or acknowledge why they are important. So you write that deliberate practice develop skills that other people have already figured out how to do and for which effective training techniques have been, established and I think, that's a key which I guess helps us explain why a pianist from eighty or a hundred years ago, who is considered the gold standard, is now considered not very good, because the instruction is built on top of itself to get people better. Faster yeah exactly, and I think the same thing in sports, where new techniques, will allow individuals to reach Canada.

Higher level and practice more effectively than previous generations. You write that deliberate practice involves well defined specific goals and often involves improving. Some aspect of the target performance is not aimed at some vague, overall improvement. Do you think that is a mistake that many people make when they're trying to quote get better at something a vague over? I'll improvement. I think that is one of the most important pieces that were advocating because you need feedback in order to be able to tell kind of adjustments. You should be making if you don't have a clear criteria here for What it is that you were doing then its unclear. Are you actually are going to improve if you get subsequent opportunities to do the same thing? So any time

can focus your performance on improving one aspect that is the most effective way of improving performance. Here's another component, you rate deliberate practice, takes place outside one's comfort zone and requires a student to constantly try is there just beyond his or her current abilities? That sounds horrible. First of all, you write further, thus demands nearer maximum effort. Which is generally not enjoyable, so you justice, urged everyone from every wanting to do deliberate practice. But why is it important? Do you want to get out of what's comfortable, because that enables you to try hard? in a way that you otherwise can't. Well, I think this house do with a body if you're just doing things that feel comfortable and go? jog the body basically won't change in

actually change your aerobic ability. People now know that the only way you can do, that is, if you practice now, but a heart rate that is above. Seventy percent of your maximum heart rate so would be maybe around a hundred forty four, a young adult, and you have to do that for about thirty minutes at least two or three times a week. If you practice at a lower intensity, The body will actually not develop. This differ called challenging biochemical situation which will list, but now genes to create physiological adaptations, let's a crummy piano player, and I want to become a good piano player for something like that, or first thing like writing, or for something like selling insurance. What is it into get outside one's comfort zone, and why does that improve my ability to get good, deliver Practice

relies on this fact that if you make errors, you gonna find ways to eliminate those errors. So you're not actually stretching herself outside Would you already can do you, probably not engaging and deliver practice which really enabled me to do all this was Erikson's deliberate practice model? My name is law Fisher and I'm soil conservation, technician, bird, a natural resource conservation, service and Seneca. Kansas Fischer has a number of world records currently hold fourteen All the records are in free, throw shooting the one minute record I hold. It was fifty two current, like most basketball free throws in one minute by a pair of using a limited number of balls free throws in two minutes, while

alternative hands. Most router owes and met by a pair using two basketballs, all standing on one leg line folded tree throws in one minute most I had a treat worries. Rosaries rose in one minute this when I'm proud of most basket free throws in one hour, two thousand three hundred and seventy one Fisher is fifty eight years old, six feet tall he's been playing basketball a long time and started as a senior for a very small school and no accolade. Then make any area teams are all start teams or anything like that at all, and I, There were considered going on playing golf ball because, quite frankly, I wouldn't go now. So how did he become one of the most accomplished free through shooters on the planet, by devising physics based approach to shooting, augmented by Anders Erikson's gospel of deliberate practice?

What he said was the people who continue to get better, never allowed himself go on automatic pilot are continually breaking down. The element at her I ain't doing working on pieces and then putting it back together, which is nothing new to him out, but I made a concerted effort to do that and I think that was a large part, a region of my success and when Anders Ericsson talks about getting out of your comfort zone as a component of deliberate practice, Bob Fisher very much knows what he means instead of just practicing. You are focused during gauge and you're. It's like rubber band. You are constantly stretching the rubber band and you dont want to stretch it to the pointed that it breaks, but you want to have a continually pressure. In other words, you wanna try and do things that you are not able to do at the present time. This leads to the most compelling angles of deliberate practice: the Neuro scientific angle, the idea that the Brean not only see

here's our practice, but is also shaped by. I think this is one of the areas where we know the most that's Ericsson again in peak. He writes about a fascinating study by Elinor Maguire, a neuroscientist at universe College London, Maguire used M our eyes to compare the brain growth of London Taxi drivers in London. Bus drivers in London, Taxi drivers have to memorize all the routes in the London area, and this is a process that takes a lot of training and they basically takes Here's to master that body of knowledge bus drivers, meanwhile, with a set rout, spend a lot less time, pushing their brains to master new material, and when you compare now these taxi drivers with bus drivers, you find this big difference in their brains, so the process of

coding and mastering all these maps is associated with a change in the brains, so you might have the most experienced bus driver in the world, but experience of that sort, driving the same route over and over and over again doesn't seem to lead to growth, which, if you move the conversation out of transportation and into something like medicine. Well, I asked Ericsson about that. There's a scary part of your book that is about how many people in many professions, as they do it longer they get more experienced in. There is an assumption that they're getting better and better, but you write that once a Listen reaches that level of quote acceptable performance and autumn nativity. You write the additional years of quote practice: don't lead to improvement? Can you talk for him?

what about the value of experience for doctors. That saying, I think this points out that difference between deliver practice and experience it just doing the same thing over and over you're not going to prepare yourself. For dealing with a complicated situations. What we analyze the outcomes of medical procedures, just the mere number of procedures that you completed is not related to the outcome. The terms that surgeries a little bit different, because there You often get very immediate feedback, especial about failures, but you're, saying that it could be that a doctor who Fresh out of medical school might be on some dimensions, at least maybe some important dimensions better than a doktor. With twenty years experience well Just then, when it comes to actually diagnosing heart, sounds when you test people with recordings of heart sounds it turns out that general practitioner,

basically their ability to diagnose, decreases. As the function of the number of years and their practice make sense. Would you be able to know? Basically, you're making mistakes. I mean. Even if you realise that the patient was incorrectly diagnosed, you won't remember exactly what the heart sound sounded like and what's Nice- is that now they ve developed courses, within a weekend training, where you actually are now trying to diagnose a particular heart sounds you can now up to at least a level that you had at the time. And you graduated from medical school. Many people listening to this I'm sure, you're familiar with the ten thousand rule which you had a hand in defining? First of all, what is the ten thousand our rule? If there is such a thing, as you understand it,. Our research showed to the surprise of of lot of people that

even the most talented musicians, that Music Academy in Germany that they actually had spent more time practicing by themselves than less accomplished musician, some we basically found that the average of that elite group was ten thousand hours by the time they reach twenty most people who have heard of the ten thousand our heard of it via the book outliers by Malcolm Gladwin outliers, looked at how extraordinarily accomplished people accomplished what they did is now right, Gladwell, basically thought that was kind of an interesting magical number. And suggested that, the key years to reach that ten thousand hours, I think, he's

really done something very important. Helping people see the necessity of this extended tree period before you reach high levels of performance, but I think there's, really nothing magical about ten thousand hours. Just mt of experience performing. May fact have very limited tasks to improve your performance. Seems to be that deliver practice where you, actually working on improving your own performance. That is the kind of the key process and that's what you need to try to maximize. You write that this rule that the number really ten thousand nice big round number is irresistibly appealing. Unfortunately, you write this rule, which is the only thing that many people today know about. The effects of practice is wrong. Several ways, one example being that Malcolm Gladwell writes about in outliers that you say

Looks good on first glance may be too, you know lay person but falls apart upon. Inspection is the Beatles playing all those nights in clubs and in Hamburg, can you about why that example doesn't serve as an example of what you are talking about. Deliberate practice, representing so toys the Beatles, and I think a lot of other people agree. What really made them outstanding, was there. You know composing of You type of music so wasn't like They excel does being exceptional, instrumental is so if we One explain here their ability to compose this really port, music, deliberate practice should not be linked to activities that allow them to basic, improve their Social skills and embracing get feedback on their compositions. So counting up the number out that they perform together

really enhance. The ability here to write innovative music, so the very popularized version of one big piece of your research gets a lot of things wrong. According to you, how much bother you well. The one thing that I'm mostly concerned about is- and I met a lot of people who are counting ours, that they're doing something. And then assuming here that accumulating enough hours will eventually make them experts, because I think that it's a fundamental incorrect view that is so different from what we are proposing, namely that you intentionally have to increase your performance, and you have to be guided ideal by a teacher that would allow you not incrementally improve so there an idea that people actually think

they're gonna get better when they're, not that I find to be the most troubling heavy talked with Malcolm about what you feel it got wrong I'm not ever spoken to Malcolm Gladwell, and I think, that could have avoided some of his summaries of that work in outliers, but I never interacted with him So if I run into him any time soon, would you like me to pass on a message of some kind I'm really impressed with his books, and I think that they ve caught a large audience and if we, able now to channel that interest in improving yourself by suggesting how We need to invest in the time to improve your performance. I think that would be terrific If he doesn't agree with are Analysis here. I think it would be important that he explains why he views that. Basically, it's not

important exactly where you do, but it's more important with the hours that tenders, I stuff that I put in outliers really only intended to perform a very specific narrative function or not narrative function but argumentative function, and that is Malcolm Gladwell. To me, the point of ten thousand hours is: if it takes that long to be good He can't do it by yourself if you have to play chess for ten years in order to be a great chess player than I mean you can have a job or maybe you have a job. It can't be a job. It takes most to your time. It means you come home Do the dishes mow the law on take care, your kids, some! Let us do that stuff, Foy right, and that was my my argument- that if there's a kind of an incredibly prolonged period. That is necessary for the incubation of genius hyper, parliament's alive.

Status of one sort of another, then that means there always has to be a group of people behind the elite performer making that kind of practice possible That's what I wanted to say So there is a sentence in. I believe it's the chapter called the ten thousand our rule in outliers. We the ten thousand hours is the magic number of greatness. I understand that was one sentence within many paragraphs within many chapters. That's trying to prove your larger point, and yet I've heard from a lot of people and I'm guessing for every one. I've heard from you, ve heard from fifty who embarked on these factories where I want to be a ballerina golfer, whatever, whatever whatever, and if I can get to ten thousand hours. That will make me great. So that is seems to be a our relationship, and how would you feel about people drawing that conclusion and taking action on it will elsewhere. In that same chapter there is a very explicit moment,

where I say that you also have to have talent. That's what we're talking about with ten thousand hours. Is how long does it take to brew talent to fruition, to take some a baseline level of ability and allow it to properly express itself and flourish ten thousand hours is meaningless in the absence of that basis, eligibility. I could play music. Twenty thousand hours, I am not becoming Mozart. Never ever ever, I can play. Just for fifty thousand hours, and I am not becoming a grand master ever ever ever You wrote about the Beatles and how, when the key reasons why they became the Beatles was because of the huge amount they spent in Hamburg and playing in clubs in theirs. Distilled perhaps best buy one sentence in outliers and page fifty. The Hamburg crucible is one of the things that set the Beatles apart, so

There is in his book peak and in interview took exception with the Beatles example and I began to run the scenario ass you so he said I ll just quote Anders a bit so to us. He and his fellow researchers the Beatles. I think a lot of people would agree. What made them outstanding was her composing of a new type of music. It wasn't like they excelled at being exceptional instrumental us. So if we want to explain here their ability to compose this really important music, deliberate practice should now be linked to activities that allowed them to basically improve their compositional skills and basically get new feedback on their composition, so counting up the number of hours they perform together. When really enhance the ability here to write really in music. Oh, I disagree again respectfully. I'm disagree with somebody knows more about this. To me twenty thousand hours? I am now as someone who is in I'm about to commit a kind of

casual obscenity, but as someone who is also in the creative business, I think that playing in loud crowded strip bars for hours on end, starting out with other peoples. Music covers and moving slowly to your own music is extraordinary way to learn about composition, I know my own writing I began, as right or trying to write like William Butler. My childhood here and if you read my early writing, it was insanely derivative. All was doing, was looking for models and copying them out of use, that emerges? Maya. Style. So I would say to the country when you absorb on a deep level, the kind of lessons of your musical elders and better is in many cases. That's what makes the next step the next creative step possible,

would have a very different interpretation of where creativity comes from, and he does they own point out. Is that the Beatles that ensure predates Eriksson So he's not the first person to make arguments about practice. There's a constituent goes back to the citizens seventies and so a lot of what I was reading the nice running. That chapter was not ericsson. It was right, the generation of people in this field that came before him and they point out, I think, very, very accurate. The Beatles experience is really unusual, so people they will lots of banned from Liverpool play a lot for a sheet. They played together. Twelve hundred times played alive twelve hundred times with a time they came to American nineteen. Sixty four twelve hundred live performances is a I'm sorry. Absolutely staggering number, but the idea, maybe presumably that there could have been another group before guys, even from Liverpool who went to Hamburg and played for many many hours and pay

as many hours but never got good right? That's the! So that's the kind of hair that I think I'm trying to help you and Andrew split, because I dont here is much disagreement as either of you here frankly, but I hear is that Europe focused more on the holistic creation of expertise and he's focused more on. I guess what I would call the slightly technical, more technical version, which has to do with deliberate practice, and what is, and it sounds like he is saying that ten thousand hours of something it necessarily deliberate practice and you're saying that ten thousand hours of practice isn't necessarily deliberate practice, but there are things that happened in that process that you can't get to without the ten thousand hours anyway, and particularly when the four guys were playing together twelve times under very right. Trying circumstances are themselves insanely, talented right. So it's like it's not force Mose it's good to take its lead Mccartney and Harrison, and I could mention rigour started, but you know,

one of whom individually could it have extraordinary career as Iraq and opposition we through of them the same room yours played together, I mean so there you have this kind of recipe for some extraordinary. So this in the end, is the central puzzle. The talent puzzle just is puzzling is which came first, a chicken and egg when we encounter someone who does something extraordinarily well? Is it because they are insanely talented, as mountain Gladwell puts it? Or is it because They had yes and adequate measure of baseline ability and then found a way to convert that ability into something extraordinary, and if it's, the latter can that conversion process be reliably emulated by people like you and me

by people like Suzanne Barton, I decided to pick up singing. Because it's something I really loved to do. She's the danish cycle we met earlier. As you may recall, she is a mother of two. I practice that home that I mean I would have to negotiate with with my kids, how much time what they let me sing, because it was really not very nice to listen to. At that point. I was really fascinated by Christina Aguilar up, so I decided to start records myself singing, Christina Aguilera Song seems when I saw you hear that was hurt

this is like the biggest problem in the wonderful, but my biggest problem in the beginning was I couldn't make it in lack of better words. The big sound that she makes our islands, so she it is amazing, big loud sound when she sings and that wasn't part of what put my horse could do. Really. I could make a real soft sound or I could really make it really sharp sound. That's all I was able to do Bergmann it by now bought into Anders Eric deliberate practice model which she acknowledged required, a certain commitment. I decided that if I wanted to be serious about the project, I would need the best coach available

So I went online and then I started searching for the person I thought would be the best coach in Denmark. The coach she found was initially reluctant to work with her, but bargain explained she wasn't just pursuing a personal dream. She was exploring the science of expertise to that was the start, and then I committed to practising an hour a day, because I knew the practice was important for a year and a half Boardman worked hard practiced alot under the guidance of her coach. She seemed to be making progress, but it was slow. I felt that I wasn't really improving enough, because I didn't get that big sound that I wanted and my coach would be cheering for me and he said it's right around the corner. Discontent

and then I remember it was summer and suddenly I was singing and the sound actually came in a song. I was able to make the big sounded a song and there was a huge jumped for me and really really motivating Boardman kept at it practicing everyday, focusing on improvement. So the next step was to stand in front of others and sing. She did that, and that is that was tough as well, but it was still a big step to move out of the practice room into

performing in front of others and creating music, meaning writing her own songs that I worked on for quite a while. She started any with others singers, and I think in that process. I realise that the next step would be to start recording. This phase was also bumpy, but she worked through it and then I started working with the producer on what is now the music that I found released. That's right, Suzanne Bargain. Finally real. I used to child a dream and to release directed. It's just called Zeus B, which my artist name in Denmark. She's got a lotta radio play says. Actually the reception has been quite phenomenal. Most of the songs are

songs I dont know why couldn't music is about love and then there's one song that more embodies the whole project of having the courage to start releasing music. It's called follow up with the message is more: if you have something that you dream about, then do it don't hesitate? Bergmann wants her accomplishment to inspire others. I really believe that it can inspire people instead of limiting themselves to what they think they can to actually choose something they dream offer. These have a passion, for

and then experience how they can improve coming up next week on economics. Radio self improvement month continues with the master class in stick to witness otherwise known as grit. What specifically are great people like what do they do when they wake up in the morning what beliefs to really people walk around within their head, how to be really even super next time and for economic trick for economics. Radio is produced by w when my c studios and W productions. This episode was produced by Gregg Resolve ski. Our staff also includes ervic Gunjay Jake, how it merit Jacob Christopher Worth

I shall highlight which Alison Hockenberry and Caroline English. You can find all our previous episodes, including complete transcripts and music credits, it for economics, dot com. You can also subscribe to the spot cast on Itunes or wherever you get your conquests.