« Freakonomics Radio

256. What Are You Waiting For?

2016-08-11 | 🔗
Standing in line represents a particularly sloppy - and frustrating - way for supply and demand to meet. Why haven't we found a better way to get what we want? Is it possible that we secretly enjoy waiting in line? And might it even be (gulp) good for us?
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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If you'd like to listen to free economic radio without ads the place to do that is sticker premium five dollars a month and you can get free month trial by going to stick your premium dot com and use a promo code freak? You also get access to all our bonus. Episodes and you'll be supporting our show to that sticker premium. Dot, com, promo code, freak thanks. There are a lot of good ideas that people hate when you tell them about it, that is Steve, Landsbergis teach economics at the university Rochester. I write books about economics, books that apply and economic treatment. Two topics it don't usually get the economic treatment
in his book more sex is safer. Sex landward argues that people who are free of sexually transmitted diseases or Stds should be having a lot more sex, since their participation in the sex pool would diminish the overall risk of disease. The main theme of the book is that things work out badly when people do not. The full consequences of their actions and things work out better when people do feel the full consequences of their actions. People who do have Stds plan for argues, don't feel the full consequences of their actions, and so people are not Billy, accounting for the damage that they're doing to other people when they make decisions, and likewise when get into line and you get to align like a line at a restaurant for the bank damage in my doing in a July when you into a line you're not fully accounting for the fact that you will slowing down everybody who arrives after you once again, you're taking
action that does not account for the costs you are imposing on other people. Ok, he's is not as exciting stalking met sex, but today, on for economics, radio, let's talk about life, hot. I didn't kill over right now a longer to get here about safe, days ago: what airlines for anyway, from an economic perspective we use Q says a way to deal with short term fluctuations in the man. Can anything good come from all that waiting being patient is basically more important than having a high iq force being successful in length, and is there a better way to get what we want? Instead of sending people to the back of the law, We send people to the front of the line.
from W and Y see studios. This is free economics, radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything. Here's your host, Stevens Abner. I M not the kind of person who enjoys standing in mines. Maybe you are I'm not I'll do just about anything. I can to avoid a line. There's one movie theater near where I live, that lets you buy specific seats online so that you don't have to show up forty five minutes early to get a If I feel like going to the movies, I will generally go see whatever that theatres, showing rather than fight the long lines at another theater. I will always pay extra within reason to buy back, the time that a line would steal from me. There are, of course, differ
kinds of lines, some less avoidable than others. If I dont want to stand in a long line at a restaurant, I can go eat somewhere else, but if I've already bought an airline ticket and need to get through security, I can't just give up. Each line comes with its own set of circumstances and sticks. I am certainly not. The kind of person would stand in line for forty five minutes in the hot sun, for a slice of peace Firstly, a pizza too slow for another time, though my body- and I didn't tell him since I don't have the patience for that kind of mine. We sent this guy, hey, I'm dyin passion and I hope this pod cast called the sport for where I talk about eating and people and people eating, but not eating of people Have you have you done? Cannibalism, not yet not yet were weight and waited for an Ex contract from Dublin. My c passion is
a man of relatively simple food pleasures and I'm not someone who is easily taken by trends, food trends that I'm not the guy. That feel the need to run out and get the krona whenever once gone crazy for it. So I have very little patient For that, but I do once in a while a place, will capture my imagination and offers a place with a history or a story behind it. A place like this it's a famous old school pizzeria in Brooklyn I ve been over for over fifty years. It's been run for that entire time, based by one man, damned Marco, who came over from ITALY and Openness Pizzeria and up until old age load him down a little bit. He made every single pizza came out of that place, he's still at eight. Seventy nine right now today makes ninety percent or so of the pizza that comes out of it. and any time you see a region of the top pizzerias in New York Defarr, as always towards the top everyone talks. How slow it is, how hard it is to get the pizza there,
I just heard you wanna be hassled. You and I were talking about This issue waiting and waiting at us- and maybe this is the time for me- to give it a shot, submit equally. The reason you hadn't gone too far in the past was because there is a long line and the reason you went to defer. Finally, is because there is a long line that exactly and so the impassioned went to defer, get some pizza for himself and to talk to the other customers waiting online. It was a week day afternoon, ninety something degrees in humid, New York City, and, I should say, the neighbourhood a broken. This is in a pretty residential area, no skyscrapers, no big office buildings and not a big lunch rush like him, I find in the city centre and a lot of cities replace opens at noon by one thousand one hundred and thirty one thousand one hundred and forty five. There are maybe ten or twelve people in line. and I'm hungry,
me a long time on eat and at noon the window opens. They start taking orders they weren't letting anyone inks. It was so hot, their condition wasn't working rights. Everyone had a stand outside to wait. Not a pleasant dated waiting outside now started to wonder It's a good idea. If the first man struck me was in everyone, talks about the weight, Defarr Iowa, so let there be crazy long line, but that's not what causes the long wait you going in line, maybe for a few minutes five or ten minutes, then you place your order. The weak. The hold up is with the actual making of the pizza, and each is move at a snail's pace like it is painstaking, suggest I mean like the place. It would open for twenty twenty five minutes, nothing translated, the pizza had come out of the window, and that's because this one and seventy nine year old guy down to Marco is the one guy
primarily making pieces. That's why so slow right? Every slice of pizza, a pie comes out of haven't you remove one size, he puts it on the plate. He takes the handful of basic. He chops, the basal by hand on to eat slice individually. He grates the grown up, hedonic she's, the slice individually and a one here, so enamoured with this sort of painstaking work in HOLLAND and the crew? a ship of other had, unlike get a guide and shop while the base our first thing in the morning and just move this thing along a little so too. That was the struggle for me when I was waiting, it's getting close to one o clock. I have not even a single by the food, yet I would normally be like on the ground. right now talk to me about the other people in line and their view of the way war that was
instead I wanted to find out. This is already a five dollars. I support so which even in New York City is, alas, I am pretty sure, is the most expensive slice in this. and on top of that, there's a million slice places in New York, maybe not quite as good as defined, but you can walk in, was any them and get a good sized a pizza fur two dollars. So I wonder how much more people would pay to not have to wait, and I started corn people after they ve been waiting for twenty minutes already in the heat when they are at their most desperate, and maybe they were already feeling a bit of a sunken situation and every person I talk to said they would pay more than five dollars if they could have had the pizza immediately. Seven Luxor. Ok, What would you say if I told you you could make ten dollars for a slice of defiance pizza, but there's been no wait at all. I might potentially be tricked into doing once it's nice to have an experience, but there'll be no business. That's bullshit! I see what about twelve dollars a slice, I think
once you get double digit, it's the cut off. If I told you, you could pay twelve books for a slice and you'd get it right now. Would you do it uses dabbling in a hobby? Yes, yes, fifteen bucks, a lighter fifteen dollars now do it now has now turned turn term for the most mom. Now twenty dollars, when are we going do it for training twenty five, not only about twenty five twenty, maybe we ve already investigative it just to get here, that would be a nice conveniency on open up a chain. I'd be up to twenty five. So do you really think that someone who claim that they would spend twenty five dollars for one place, a pizza to not weep, for it actually would or was that just their radio talk talking yeah? I think that was a lot of talk. I think you're right, but but but I do think that the people who said seven or eight dollars- I think that was legit
especially when you're you're asking them at that moment, evacuated twenty minutes. They get another twenty or thirty minutes ahead of them. It's ninety seven degrees out and they have already paid for their pizza. So if you set them give me three more dollars right now and I'll give you a pizza immediately. I think those people are telling the truth did they would how long you, are willing to wait in a given line, depends on a lot of things how badly you want the thing at the end of the line, whether the you're waiting for is rare, brats, even unique, and what you'd be doing with your time, otherwise but Eve, If you are willing to wait, you have to admit at least if you think like minimised the align, represents a certain kind of failure. A failure of supply, two seamlessly meet demand there somewhere a scarcity
Whenever you see align. The first thing to ask is what the scarcity that's Felix, Ober holes or g he's an economist at Harvard Business School Ass, a consumer in a market economy. You should expected everything happens for you, instant, obviously all the time and then when that's not true, you need to ask: what's the constraint and constraint is sometimes cost is sometimes availability of skill personnel, sometimes availability of space, but there's gotta be some constraint. Otherwise we would see a line to an economist wait to handle this constraint is to raise prices, but every now and then for both for practical, but also for moral reasons. We decide that no, the price system just jacking up prices until
supply equals demand is actually not the right thing to do, and that's why you got interested in doing some research about line standing. So the line research was a typical example where, as an economist, do you look at lines and you have a sense. How it should be done. And then almost always, you see that no sort of right, but not quite one problem with lines- is that their inefficient in part, because the order that you stand in line doesn't necessarily reflect how badly you want what's at the end of the line or how much would be willing to pay for it. This lead over energy, to wonder why more people don't pay to cut in line. Is it that you could go to the person in front than you could for money, but no one would ever let you in is it began their moral coms to do this, because there's something that's perceived to be particularly fair about lines and is not something you do,
is it that people would not let you in because, obviously, if you let someone cut in, you created The facts are nowadays on everyone else into line, because now they have to wait longer to find answers to these questions, overrules or g designed and experiment. Ten researchers, including himself, approached hundreds of people on lines in four locations in Philadelphia. He was teaching at the university pensive any at the time they went to a cavity area at pen. They went to the am tracks station, a food court and that of motor vehicles, so the experiment is really simple. We pick aligned suffering since in the cafeteria and day experimenter what walk up to a person whose in front after laying say
position number two or the third or fourth person into line, and the experimenter would ask. Can I cut in if the person asks why, which sometimes happen the experimenter would say, I would like to pay faster, so there's no long story about mother and I have to get to her, and so this as as little information as possible. That was one adoration, the experiment in another. The researcher offered to pay the amounts, varied between zero and ten dollars, and then we shall see what happens So what happens? One of the interesting things is that actually people are quite nice in about half of the cases. Even if you don't offer money at all, people are willing to let someone culling and I think it's a sense tat. Probably you wouldn't
this all the time probably must be that you're in a particular rushed at you to be somewhere, so so, all in all, even though thirsty strong norm to not cut in line. If you ask nicely most people are willing to do it. Ok couple things to say about that overhauls orgy says: there's a strong norm to not cut in line. That is true in the U S, and in other places, including Canada and the UK, the Brits in fact think of themselves as the originators of the queuing concept. Proper q behaviors considered such an essential part of british business that Two years back, questions about Q behaviour were nearly added to the UK citizenship application in any case line standing is not a universal behaviour, indy for instance, has been described as more familiar with the scrub than the line. The same goes.
China and many other countries, of course, have to remember lines represent more than culture. They represent supply and demand and if you live in a place with too much demand or little supply the value
Maintaining a proper q would seem to be secondary at best. But if you know your, we will be rewarded and if you are accustomed to waiting in line, it would seem to be that big, a deal to allow someone to cut in at least once in awhile and that's what Felix overhauls orgy found in his experiment. Even when he offered no money about forty, five percent of the people will let you cut in and what about with the cash offer. You see that the likelihood of being able to cut in increases from about forty five percent or so to seventy five percent with five or ten dollars. Ok, that makes sense, but the most surprising thing which really is pulse interesting practically but theoretically speaking, is that by people are much more likely to lead to cutting. If you offer money, few p
will actually accept the monetary compensation. Did you catch up? Most people, don't accept the money, so the typical conversation. Ok, can I cut in years here's five dollars. You say yes, of course, I'll. Let you cut in, but I'm not going to take your money to an economist. This does not seem like rational behaviour, because we typically think that the price is too that the market works well. For two reasons, one is prices indicate scarcity. If I offer ten dollars, he must minimise boy, I'm really in a rush. If I offer just a dollar yeah, I don't know, I might want to be a little faster, but it's probably not that valuable to me and so that part of the price system actually worked beautifully, but was also true about the prices to miss the point.
who gives up something that is really valuable to someone else, is supposed to be compensated. That's the whole theory of two traits make both parties better off. I get something that is very valuable to me and in exchange I pay five dollars ten dollars, but that exchange doesn't happen. So why didn't that exchange happen when line cutters offered money? Why the line Cadiz refuse to take it? I think that's the sense. Which lines are systems that we often use when auctioning off good services to those who have the highest willingness to pay seems inappropriate for moral reasons, inappropriate at least if you go to my once. But what have you do repeatedly? Overhauls orgy decide to go back the next day and ask the same people if you could confine again for the same amount of money. People were not so friendly. This time is that, if the way they tell you
not again, don't think you can come. for every day, these kinds of comments, which suggests, perhaps that one of the social norms round. Mine standing is that it's not cool to refuse someone who wants to cut in line until it becomes a regular thing because the transaction, moves from the moral realm, the financial room. You are stealing time from me couple months ago I took a trip to France with my son for the European Championship Soccer tournament, twenty for Europeans. in Spain for the title, since the fans of these teams identify themselves. So plainly with jerseys and hats, it's a great chance to watch differ, nationalities queuing behaviour and drinking behaviour in fighting behaviour and so on, but those are topics for another day the first game. My son and I went to was Germany against Poland at the start to France in Paris. Given the recent terrorist attacks, there was a tonne
security to get in three or four different checkpoints before even got your gate entered the stadium and then at our gate, there's a massive lie hundred yards long, maybe two hundred so we went to the back. We are good obedient Americans, after all and after fifteen, in it. We had moved on and how could that be? People were gay, into the stadium from our line. You can see that, but the line wasn't getting any shorter? Why? Because It was getting wider spans we're walking. To the line groups of two or three or four unjust, attaching them to the side of the line like happy little barnacles toward the front line. Of course, not the back. They didn't look at the strangers they were joining in line. They would just look straight ahead calmly if they ve been standing there for an hour had to admire their sense of cool german fans meanwhile went to the back there unlike us, suckers, because the line
kept getting wider and wider and wider as more and more poles kept stealing more and more time from the Germans and us now. We're gone to this match is neutrals we're just there to see the footing? We did not have a rooting interests between these two teams, but by the time we find got inside just before kick off. Believe me, we were firmly with the german supporters turns out, it didn't matter was an illness draw. But when Poland was finally eliminated from the tournament by Portugal. The eventual champion we celebrate hard. Even though Portugal was literally the last time we want to win the euros. That is what a bear line, standing experience and due to a person because as inefficient, line, may be it nods toward a sense of fairness. Everyone wits,
coming up on economics. Radio, what are your taste buds thing of waiting a mine? when are the people, were joining the lines and people reported at this movie tastes better and what's wrong with eliminating lines by just putting a price on everything: that's not a disease We feel comfortable with standing in a line isn't so bad if the line isn't too long if it moves along, if there's not a lot of uncertainty and if it seems relatively fair, to everyone whose waiting? How often are all those criteria met in the real world, not often enough the science of Q management is certainly gotten better. You know that if you ve ever been to a whole food stores
city where the lines are divided by color by how much you're buying, then the open registers are called out like bingo numbers The game suffocation of lime waiting is mild, as it may be, makes mine waiting more bearable? But the real beauty whole foods line, at least that the weight simply isn't very long in part. Because we spend a lot of money on cash years, but what, if another totally different, maybe cheap, the way the organ his lines so that, when you really want something, you wouldn't have to wait at all. Remember Steve Landsbergis, teach economics at the university Rochester. I write books about economics in his book. More sex is safer, say Lindbergh describes a line. Standing solution first proposed by an israeli economist named Raphael. Hudson, Professor Hoskins wonderful idea is that, instead of sending people to the back of the line, we send people to the front
line each new Comer comes to the front line and pushes every one else backward rather than standard. First come first served model. This system is called last. Come first served. Yes, I know doesn't seem to make any sense at first, but bear with me. Imagine there is a water fountain and you want to drink. Each new Comer comes to the front line and pushes everyone else backward. Ok, it's good for you, the newcomer, but what about everyone waiting online? What that means is that if you are more than three or four places back, you have no hope of ever getting a drink, because newcomers are gonna arrive at some rate. Theirs. Be some point in the line where it's hopeless to wait for you drink and therefore those people will give up and that's a good thing. That's a good thing. Oh, it means the line will never be more than a few people long. The fountain still gets used because the stream of newcomers assures that
and the few people who are willing to wait in line assure that the fountain will be used even at them. Once when no new Comer has just arrived, but not many people. be willing to wait and align like that, and we want people giving up because we don't want them. Wasting their time in lines? Ok does not just seem unfair. Somehow won't you say it's not fair, but the number of people who get served is the same number that would have gotten served under any other system, but it's a different set of people who get served, and you know you might think will this way some people never get served at all. That's true, but under the current system some people never get served at all, namely the ones who are not willing to wait an hour. The same number of people are being denied service either way the queen, Gene is how long are people waiting in line along the way we can minimize that that would be great man's Bourgh admits that as appealing as this idea may be in theory, there are a lot of problems in practice when the biggest one
that if we were to implement this system, you would have to have a way of preventing people from leaving the line and then re entering at the front. It's gotta be all the genuine newcomer who gets the drink, not the poorest who was waiting in line and got out and and ran up to the front enforcing that, I think, would be a nightmare and it would be a worst nightmare of the stakes were higher than just a drink of water. There is another problem with last come first served you could wait forever, which is bad news. If you're really really thirsty under first come first served, everyone eventually gets the front line. Making people wait does select for people who need the help more
secretly- and that is a good thing about making people wait, but you still wouldn't want to make them wait line because there is a better way to deal with it in the better way to deal with. It is to let them pay a little extra to go into a premium. Q man's Bourgh acknowledges that a lot of people hate the idea of getting to pay your way out of waiting. There are a lot of good ideas that people hate when you tell them about so I think partly people just don't realize how will markets work in many cases and as a result of that, their hostile to things that they end up not being here, well to once. They ve seen them things like secondary markets. right Felix overhauls energy again, the role of the secondary market is to go the inefficient allocation to something looks a little more efficient than what we had in the first place like ticket resellers like proof
A line. Standards will do the waiting for you, but what feels socially acceptable changes over time and varies by place and different people have different views of what's fair and I think that the deeper question here is: what's the line that describes when we feel uncomfortable using the price system so take
organs. Might we have a line for scarce organs and, at least in the United States we don't feel comfortable, saying, while why do we have this line shouldn't we just auction off a liver becomes available? That's not a decision that we feel comfortable with people pay vat system in which there is a cue. That's a yell at fish, back everybody's being saved based on that the amount of time that they invested and vanished systemic of auction system where people are getting products or services based on how much money they fish back is Professor of behavioral science in marketing at the booth school of business at the University of Chicago. I study many aspects of motivation there among them is how to get people to be more patience, how to get them to add value. I what thou waiting for? I questions about self control, about ten o clock pursuit and so on so
fish back design some waiting experiments in one you want to know how people's value if something they get in line is affected by how many other people are waiting behind them. So she and her colleagues set up an on campus smoothie sample tasting study for half the participants to researchers stood in line behind the participants to make it seem, like others, were waiting for the other half no one stood behind this movie taster when the people were joining the line than people reported that this more they tastes better, which to fish back. showed that a line can signal value. In other words, once we wait for something we value it more than if it was Ethel less than if we never had to wait. She realized
This notion runs contrary to the economists notion that lines are inefficient and undesirable. When yes said don't mind that standing lines unless course: you're waiting not for an optional item like smoothie, but for necessities like medicine or food or water, without The Venezuelans are currently doing. Do we have to satellite products, for which then need these increasing funds for that's where that uneasy Squire stable sir, if we are talking about someone that their needs to get medical care where long line is not good because they might get more sink. However, waiting for six months so, for I knew I found, might actually be a good idea for apple, because
really the need for an Iphone does not increase over time and for those things we don't urgently need it may be that lines aren't just acceptable. They may be desirable. Moreover, Fischbach argues waiting can have a positive effect on our lives. Yes, you you're absolutely collects, or there is a ton of evidence connecting no patience with their negative outcomes, gay which could be clean. Gimme, a hell of a financial and so on, but there was relatively less on their how to do that, how to make people more patient and gathering people to pause and and weights and not act on their immediate desire is actually one way in which we can get them too to be more patient, in the long run and lie this might happen to do that, even though
they are rarely intended to help people develop character. Actually there never intended to help people develop their ability to wait longer. High level of patients is linked to so many successful outcomes that fish back as a hard time. Thinking of all of them. Let me think Well, I begin Keats that thou more patient have more friends, get better Quaid get better essay test. Scores have they go. Our people that are more patient are able to say two were advanced. There are clear: they are able to maintain their marriage. There are several studies They show that mania problems in life addiction their not being able to keep a jaw associated with with low self control
suddenly and drinking as small king that are associated with low self controlled. Basically, the person need some immediate gratification and is unwell to wait for that, the larger later we want, which is to be healthy in the long run. So I'm not so of its standing in her in lines is going to be there no they're only way or the main way to improve people's patience but TAT Sun. being patient is a key to being successful. There was a lot of research on that there were such ass controlled and how that basically more important than having a high iq for being successful in life. and that is bad news for someone like me, since I am so impatient since I get so irritated by soccer fans cutting a mine, and since I would never
ever weight in a long line in the hot summer, Sun just to get a slice of Brooklyn Pizza like the impassioned would any time you see a region of the top pizzerias New York Defarr, as always towards the top. I always found, doesn't that I wanted to experience so you got there. if our before it opened the window opens at noon you place your order you said within ten or fifteen minutes, then you finally eight at about what twelve forty five or so here I would say with forty five minute. Wait for our pizza. I would now here's how you and I are different and never to go to a place where the line. I must say that I respect it. Don't get me wrong. I just couldn't have done it, so I really I respect your patience, but tell me this: was it worth it I got to say the real life is very good, but is actually the square sliced. The sicilian slice. that is completely rocking my world and you just
Just listen toward it sounds like you buying that his pizza, then crunch of the crust holy cow. I'm glad I did it. The pizza was really delicious. I would go again, but I wouldn't go twenty five the times, and I would only go with the right expectations coming, next week on economics, radio from the archives, but not too far back in episode called these unsavoury needs and other toothbrush. I really need so much. If you like, I'm like on paper, a million of the worst book ever he talks about his book modern romance to me. Crazy statistic in the book is in nineteen sixty seven. There is a study they did where they found seventy six percent of women
said they would marry someone that they are not romantically in love with tell us why he doesn't take pictures with fans, so you can either do that or you can have this like a real moment with a person. What is it hey? How are you like? What's your name and we get to the toothbrush problem, it's next time economics rating economics Radio is produced by W and my c studios and governor productions. This episode is produced by Caitlin Pierce. Our staff also includes ervic Gunjay Jake, how it merit Jacob Christopher Worth. Gregg results Alison Hockenberry, Emma Morgenstern Angeleno Greensburg, Harry Huggins is in turn, thanks to dance passion of the sport full podcast and is producer. And sandy for bringing this idea to us and for what on the far pizza line, this forkful latest episode. By the way it looks
how a long line at a restaurant affects your enjoyment of the food you can subscribe to economics, radio and the sport full. Itunes or where we get your pockets and if you just can't stand to wait for our next episode, come visitors at freakin, I'm expect com where you will find our entire archive of pod cast as well as a complete, transcript of every episode ever made, along with music credits and much more thanks for listening. Hey there, Stephen Dublin again, one more thing. If you liked the episode you just heard, we think you like something else in the friggin hammocks radio network. Look for this interview on the new podcast people I mostly admire with host Steve Level, but my guest today Sue bird. She collects championships she's for double and be eighty of Egypt's five Euro League best about championships,
to end C h, championships for international basketball, federation, world cups and four olympic gold medal, I would I think that, in order to be the player you are, you would have to be a person who acted gets better under pressure rather than worth. While. Obviously there are people, who are known for hitting big shots, are known for playing well in big games that exists for sure, but I think we kind of frame it there. Why? It's not that you're gonna make nine out of ten. It's that you might make three at ten. Somebody else is making zero it's at, whose most, successful. It's like who's, the most successful the least successful. That is people mostly admire you can find it on your favorite podcast app subscribe now, so that you don't miss single episode
Hey there, Stephen dubbing again, one more thing, if you like for economics, radio, I think you'll also like the latest episode of people, I mostly admire the podcast hosted by my free economic, spreading co, author Steve Level, here's what it sounds like a guest today, Sue bird. She collects championships she's for w NBA championships. Five euro, the best about championships too, and see a championships for International Basketball Federation, world cups and four olympic gold medals. I'd love to talk about the economic the professional basketball. So the average player in the NBA made eight point three million dollars into the nineteen and in the W Nba, the average with eighty thousand is frustrating just now. I think. Actually, if you look at
twenty. Twenty. Our minimum is now higher, but we all but in the same amount of work. So is it a heart swallow knowing that somebody else's work is being rewarded at times by I live in reality. I understand business and economics. Some people look at us as like charity. The goal will help them out like an it in a terrible. What sense, not unlike this business, investment way everything do look at us as an investment immediately its talked about how we don't make money and it's like fifty years. About the NBA did either, but people are willing to make that investment get behind it and growing its people I most we admire, you can find it on your favorite podcast, app
Transcript generated on 2021-01-25.