« Freakonomics Radio

262. This Is Your Brain on Podcasts

2016-10-13 | 🔗
Neuroscientists still have a great deal to learn about the human brain. One recent MRI study sheds some light, finding that a certain kind of storytelling stimulates enormous activity across broad swaths of the brain. The takeaway is obvious: you should be listening to even more podcasts.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This podcast dynamically inserts audio advertisements of varying lengths for each download. As a result, the transcription time indexes may be inaccurate.
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right off the bat. While today's episode of Economics, radio is irregular brand new episode, it is also a fundraiser when it does episodes where I ask you to send money to w I see the public radio station that produces our show, we'll talk, that more later? But if you just want to get out of the way now, all you ve got to do is go to free economic dot, com and click, the donate button, or you can text the word freak the number six, nine, eight, six, six and they'll text, you back a donation link in either case you'll find all kinds of economics, radio swag available only to donors of the show thanks, advance now moving on. As you surely know, there is a lot of amazing research going on these days into the human brain and a lot of amazing brain researchers, either check out so wide. We choose Jack gallant from you, see Berkeley to speak with a could pretend it's just because
he's very good at what he does in very versatile. I have done everything I mean: I've done, computer science. I've done psychology, I've done nor of physiology, so I call myself a computational and cognitive neuroscientist and all that would be true, but that's not why we chose Jack gallant. We chose Jack gallant because more because he's on our team, even if you didn't set out to be in what team is that you ask its team podcast in his lab at Berkeley, Jack Gallant, stuck research, subjects in an MRI machine that stands for functional, magnetic resonance imaging and he had them. Listen, podcast. China's mechanisms. Essence to see Mary,
came to see me Jesus and I got no. That can't be. That can't be all there is, and I quote the job we use them because their compelling you pay attention to them. You want to know the resolution to them. Their very powerful stories so on today show will learn some things we didn't know, but how the brain works, especially when it comes to language the Brenner is involved in combining the meaning of language are very, very broadly distributed and will hear how people are impacted by the language in a podcast like say for economics, radio, I dont think I would have made the Olympics. If I had was therefore just as you put it. That way
I'm from W and Y see studios. This is freakin comics radio broadcasts that explores the hidden side of everything. Here's your host Stephen Governor, we're, starting today with Jack gallant. He is a psychology professor who has his own brain research. Lab at Berkeley let me ask you and extraordinarily native question. That's pretend we take the brain in its totality is a three dimensional machine that does all this stuff in is connected to all these things and and has a history to evolution, airily and You are to take that machine and make turned it into either pie charter graph, that's got a hundred per cent, and if that is your per cent Where are we on that graph,
of truly knowing what's going on in the brain, are we above fifty percent? Yet that's the way, I think about the problem too. Now there's a eighty billion neurons in the brain. So here's the here's, the larger context, the brain is a computer, it's, but it's not like your desktop computer right. The brain processes, information it represents information. It It represents permission but the world and it allows you to interact with the world. So it's an information, processing device and therefore its a computer, but it's a wet squishy computer that evolved according to its own principles and its own history, and its opening principles are very different from the desktop computer. They do have so it s not computer is what's called Yvonne Norman Architectural, where their design, of the system is such that the hardware, the transistors and the software, the program that runs on the hardware are as independent as they can possibly be. The brain works by very different principles of the brain is essentially just a collection of wires and just wider to everything else in this big gigantic, tangled mass
every neuron is connected to between two thousand and ten thousand other neurons. There are feedforward and feedback loops theirs the scale organization of the brain, so their individual neurons are organizing the local circuits. Those targets organised in layers and columns encounter organised in areas your brain contains no one's quite sure, probably something on the order to two five hundred distinct functional areas and a given area or piece of the brain has about a fifty percent. Chance of being connected to every other peace, so it's a hugely high, interconnected network- and it takes about three minutes or so to grow new synapse. So, as you're listening to me speaking, your thoughts are fleeing from one thing to another: you're, essentially having those different thoughts as an those different thoughts or an emergent property. information flowing over this fixed set of wires, so the brain, dynamical property, where information flowing over fix set of wires can interact with itself.
In order to give rise to this new emerging, probably of thought, and we have no idea how that kind of system works. At this point you described the brain is a mess. If you were to be tasked with redesigning let's say, will give you a budget of you know, couple billion in two and a half years in a staff of forty. Oh, what do you do? What are the most significant differences this. Woman was entertaining questions. I have heard you welcome when redesign the brain, because I don't think we have enough information to redesign the brain. Ok, but if I'm gonna give you the two and a half billion dollars anyway, why would just use it to do basic neuroscience we want to find out when you say basic neuroscience is obviously much less basic than I would imagine so in any field of science, including neuroscience, there are sort of two large kinds are problems that can limit your progress. One is how much data you have about the system, and one is what your theory is about. This
Of course, in the end, if you have a complicated problem, you want me to buy both of these things, but at any given point in time. One of these is more problematic and in neuroscience the real That's limiting our understanding of the rain right now is not theory, its data. We have plenty of time. about the brain? The problem is, we can't constrain any of those three with data, because we don't have good enough data afterward. collect and enormous dataset, then it becomes a sort of modelling theory, machine learning, problem to troll through those data and try to understand the basic principles that gave rise to I've. Had this totally idiotic theory for about ten years now. That I'm sure is wrong and it's not really a theory. More just a metaphor: and I've set it to people and it sounds smart. They always nod, but I want to run it by you because you'll be able to prove. I think how idiotic it is, but I'd like to improve the the theory. So I'm coming to you for feedback covering when I think
the human today and twenty sixteen and I think, of stimuli that any given person deals with Anna given day granted. There is a huge variants if I live in New York City or if I live in, you know one of any other million places on earth and depending on everything, what kind of business, what kind of family, what kind of political structures and so on. There is obviously huge, but we're dealing with a whole lot of seven billion Pino, pretty similar animals who have this computer in our heads, as you put it in. I always think of that computer as being pretty good and fairly reliable hardware. That is relatively old, because it's been evolving Minos quite slowly for a long time, but that the stimuli that were responding to on a given day, which is changed a lot faster than we physiologically of all
and those stimuli include all kinds of transactions and interactions and responses and behaviors, you know our ancestors never could have dreamed of, and I sometimes feel as if we just trying to run. You know version eighteen million point for two for software on hardware, one point, oh and that we do our best to accommodate, but that really hard and that would explain a lot of our biases and curious Dixon and so not all of which are bad but would explain why were not term, I want to say optimal, but why we sometimes don't act as though the most rational people among us argue we should act. just curious. If there's any merit at all to that metaphor assuming not if you could offer me a better metaphor to impress people within the future. Well, that's an increasing problem. I guess it would have two things to say about that. First of all, human
site has been evolving very rapidly for fifty thousand years since the dawn of agriculture everything's been different since then continuously different, the pace of changes may be accelerating, but things have constantly indifferent and we ve been dealing with these societal changes. For that whole time, because evolution has given us a very flux, computer system. We can cover a fixed brain, but during development and evil and adults we can learn to flexible use that system to solve novel problems. That doesn't say. system can't be overwhelmed or confused or operate sub optimally. But it's a pretty damn flexible system and I think that's why you humans have managed to push culture much farther than any other animals. I mean certain piece of non human animals, have culture in the sense that small so them well learn behaviors that they will pass
onto their mates and that don't influence their genetics directly, except perhaps by increasing their fitness but humans. You know this is all of human existence. Is culture at this point: Blank One more thing: ladders. Remember that human brain, the hardware and the software. Intimately linked right. So the high we are currently run the programmes that are conferred by the hardware, it's very different when your desktop computer. So if you by your desktop computer, if you have you know and a Tory Sixty four, you could try to run away. exonerate. It wouldn't work very well. You can maybe hack on the Wessex long enough for a few years and get it to limp along on a tory Sixty four, but it would not behave well. We have a in some sense, a worse situation, because we have an authority sixty four computer in her head, but it's running a tory Sixty four software. we're just trying to use it to solve modern problems. Ok, so plainly, you know a lot about how we use
our brains and how the brain works. I do just wanna hear you talk about vision for a bit Ok, so vision is a very interesting sense. Humans, my envision more than any other sense, I am tired. Vision seems completely trivial because you know you open your eyes. You see. What's the problem, I mean just walk round. You do stuff, you play sports everything's trivial, its trivial easy, so how hard condition be well, it turns out It is a very, very difficult computational problem, and the reason humans are so good at it is that about a quarter of your brain is solely or largely devoted to vision in humans. We think there are probably something on the order of five thousand two hundred and seventy two sting you'll areas like there are a lot of brain areas devoted to vision that are simply involve with mapping the incoming stimulus that lands on your eyeball into
the motor commands you need to move the muscles say pick up an object near you right if you think about it. If you look at your desk in there's a coffee cup where the coffee cup falls on. Your eye is completely irrelevant to you. What you care about is where the coffee cup is relative to your hand and how you need to operate the police in your muscles of your arm in your hand, to grab the coffee cup so transforming from this sort of ice entered coordinate systems as arms. Our current system is a very complicated problem that solved completely safe. Senior brain. So what vision is a nice system because we know what it's trying to do with trying to do vision right, think about looking at the prefrontal cortex of a human where're. You know there are Brainerd involving abstracts thought and moral reasoning and planning, I mean we have some vague idea of what they're trying to do. But it's it's very difficulty. a handle on that vision is a very, very solid system and easy to understand. and we share our visual system with a lot of
animals that have very similar visual systems so as a consequence, I just have learned an enormous amount about how the visual system is organised. been nonhuman animals over the past fifty years and that data can be used to help us understand the human no imaging data, we're getting from this fairly new technology, MRI, which is really only been around twenty years. So the whole reason everyone uses F Mri today functional magnetic resonance imaging. The whole reason people use it is because it replicates the results in vision that we know should be there from animal studies, and that justifies using this MRI method to study other things that are less well understood than vision,
Other things like language. It turns out that language is a very interesting system for two reasons: a just like vision, languages, hierarchically organised. So when you hear it comes into your quickly in the form of a sound spectra ground which is just a frequency by time and then from that sound spectrum, extract, phonemes and more themes, and you can extract. syllables and words and syntax and semantics and narrative all that information can be extracted from spoken narrative that you here, and that means, since you can
think about all those levels of information. They must be represented somewhere in the brain, so we decided to take the tools that we have developed provision and to apply them to language. This led to a research project which led to a paper published this year in nature by gallant and his co authors Alexander, whose Wendy to hear Thomas Griffiths and Frederick Tennyson. It's called natural speech, reveals the semantic man the tile human cerebral cortex. So our stimuli came from the moth radio. Our, and this is essentially stand up, storytelling right, professional, so my precious retailers get up from the audience. They tell stories meant to a sort of excited interest the audience. But when I got close to about forty, I suddenly, but oh my god. This could be it. This could be what I end up doing this
yeah my tombstone Tom, wiser custom database, application engineer, and I thought no, that that can't be can't be all there is I get a phone call from my mom and he tells me that my father is about to get on and emergency life flight from are home in Montana to go to Denver today an emergency liver transplant assembly. I was just thinking
To see me Mary came to see me, Jesus really really idyllic snow in Vermont and also stuff and and Michael we're out on this little deck outside it max epoch, epoch gets shock Shaka with two and a half weeks later, a black funeral wreath was delivered to me at my office. With a note that said, in memory of our son, he's were largely autobiographical stories about love and Lawson redemption. The great stories did you use them because, their great or did you just use them because they were stories we use them because their compelling their interesting stories. You can't you pay attention to them. You want to know the resolution to them, either their very powerful stories. So previous people had used the story. May we are already Hassan at Princeton, had started using these stories and he found that they
elicited a large amount of brain activity, because people are paying close attention to the stories One of the points you have an MRI experiments is often times are very boring you put somebody in an MRI scanner, which is a very uncomfortable place to be, and then you flash a word at them everything. Seconds for an hour. They get more out of their skull. But when I close to about forty These stories are very interesting. You just lie in the magnet you listen to these people telling stories you get lost in the stories its best MRI experiment ever in effect, this is the only Amorite spirit we've ever done. Where we didn't have to pay people to be understood. They were just happy to lie there, listen to the stories and you to get a lot of signal a regime like MRI were signal. Limited getting more signal is always better. It means we can have more information to model the brain. Ok,
information that you glean from the study in order to model the brain. How fruitful is that really for you? It's the data we got from this experiment is is really quite remarkable. I am now the point where, in order to explain the results, I have to explain the method until you how we analyze the data, because that's import so people are lying in the magnet. They listen to a couple hours of story We measure brain activity, Measuring changes in blood flow and blood auction at fifty thousand or so different locations across the cerebral cortex, while they listen to these stories and the essential problem is too. You're out for each location in the brain that we measured. What information the stories is: driving activity that location, the brain, gallant and his colleagues divided. The stories into two linguistic categories: syntax or the grammatical structure and cement
tax or the stories meaning. So now we can probing each of the locations we measure in the brain to find out if it responds different kinds of syntax or for response to different kinds of semantics or both so This is a data driven approach in which each location, the brain, will tell us in this procedure which specific kinds of features it prefers, and when you play this game, you find out that exactly as you would expect, these very simple features like spectral features and phonemes are represented in primary auditory cortex, which is the first location in the cortex where auditory information comes from, years, but they also found something they weren't expecting this higher level semantic information, the meaning of the stories, isn't really repressed. Primary arbitrary cortex at all, it's represented further downstream in
large constellation of brain areas that represent different aspects of meaning and that's actually. The most interesting thing about this study is the representation of Samantha, We have information about the representation of all these ever feature spaces, but the one very surprising thing from this study is this: and information, the meaning of the stories, as represented broadly across much of the brain. all those various areas of the brain represent different aspects of semantic information in these really complicated maps, are very, very rich but fairly consistent across different individuals. Ok, here's my lay interpretation. What you're saying extremely lay super lay interpretation would be hard casts or radio make your brain hum. With mystery in delight. That's how I interpreted, which you said they make your brain
whether that humming, its mysteries and delightful depends on whether you wanted your brain to hammer, not you're, trying to sleep that may not be so good what I really want to know is how Anomalous or how typical is this, I don't know cross network or broad humming in the brain. Will I have several things to say about this. First of all, It will. It is traditionally thought the law in the language sort of world is that languages very left, lateral eyes and very localised and not largely distributed, and that is true for reduction the key sort of brain nodes. You need to produce speech at the this or that, after semantics, the actual, translating meaning into speech. Is our left liberalized and those are bottlenecks and damage. There will cause severe problems with speech production, remember not doing speech production here, we're doing speech, comprehension and the
Brain areas involving comprehension, complaining, the meaning of language, are very, very broadly distributed. I think more broadly than anyone had expected So yes, when you're listening to someone tell an interesting story, an enormous swaths of your brain is being activated. For example, imagine I tell you a story about a dog well. Ok, you know a lot of things about a dog all of this different information with the information, the stories and the information that is primed by the stories, the sort of memories that are dredged up by a story, our representative constellation of many many different brain areas. Auditory information tends to be represented in sort of locations in the brain and not others. Olfactory informations represented certain. occasions in the brain and not others. Mathematical operations to occur certain parts of the brain and not others, and after listening to a story that involves you know a dog barking and a dog smell?
bad and a pack of dogs. Well that a certain number of dogs like for dogs, then that would activate different brain areas with all these different aspects of the stories, I'm guessing you not go to want to give me any advice as to how to make this podcast stimulate enormous swaths of the brain, I would be an idiot to have you on the line and not ask so you know their words or ideas I should embrace. Should I favour dogs over cats? It sounds like you're, very pro dog should I, for instance, stop using you know long words like externalities and heterogeneity. Yet do you have any advice for me Jack? Well, the underlying subtext of your question is that evoking large amounts of brain activity is good and I have no doubt that's true right so as to start there If you ask me, how can I woke lots of brain activity, I can answer your question. If you ask me
Should you I have no idea, you really don't have any idea, or I o k I'll, take what you got. How can I exactly if you choose to create a story that owes its as much rain activity as possible? Actually you know how to do this. All journalists know how to do this. There is an old trope in journalism if it bleeds. It leads because journalist saw no that human interest stories, especially involving something nasty like a violent thing. Cracked people's interests and one of the facts that we know about the brain from the last ten years or so of MRI? Is that not only are these there, these rich representations of brain activity, but that there These representations are modulator and actually transformed by what you attend to so social information. Is representative. Many many different locations in the brain and people attend to bad social things that happen. So if you want to provoke a lot of brain activity? You you know, you put a murder on the front page.
and that would attract everyone's attention and it would evoke activity in all the socially related parts of the brain, and you would have your solution. So here's what I've learned from talking to check out in order to sure the ongoing success of this part cast. I should probably murder someone live on the air, but I am not willing to do that- maybe not surprising to you, but I am not so plan b families much better, it's simple, less bloody, not even illegal all it takes, is for you to make a donation w and my c to help them to producing for economics radio, even though the show attracts re advertisers to whom we're very grateful. The public radio business model also relies heavily on this new donations. So please go to free economic start, come quickly, donate button or even easier. You can text the word freak to the number six.
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a one dollar per episode, and I really enjoyed the episode, then I would donate extra and if the episode was below the standards that I had come to expect from. Mr double earnest love it then, I would subtract from that. Dolly there was maybe an episode or to where I was so disappointed and so felt taken advantage of. For my time where I felt as if I should have been paid to listen to those to emphasise so what number did Adler? Finally, Landon? it was the out it comes out to about two hundred and thirty eight dollars, I believe for all the episodes that were produced at the time I had submitted my work cheap. Personally, I think Gill is being a bit generous, ensure there are many more lousy episode than he saying, but we Try hard around here and we do appreciate the generosity of guilt.
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Welcome back to our special raising episode. We already heard from Berkeley Cognitive, neuroscientist Jack gallant about how pod gets affect the brain. We also economics, radio listeners, how our podcast specifically has affected their brain or other body parts. I think economics, radio, My name is to Vienna and from Grenada, but I Austin Texas. I was asked It really inspired by a hidden side of online Dating episode, and I started my
online dating account. I'm actually, a few days later, I met Philip, who is on track to become my first and most serious relationship. So is crazy for me to think that a podcast may have legs and me fighting real love. That was the Vienna Bruno here is another listener named David down his bride less than a year ago, and I would just blissfully fall asleep wondering why The sky was blue war. What that cover amen to that last confusing email. Now when I lie in bed, wide awake, because a free economic said I'm thinking about something trained, engage my wife in conversation like what are they optimal names for our future children in order to maximum as their earning potential or raw hey. What's the our ally of buying a new mattress and here is Kelsey Warren? I live in a car accident. In March twenty thirteen I broke my back my neck,
my femur punctured along and most dramatically suffered a trauma called brain. Sheer my brain injury had knocked me back in time. Basically, I thought I was a kid and act like one when I progressed clothes to normal, I'm twenty six years old, I had a wall. I was having trouble with deep, complex thinking, and this is where your podcast comes in. I started listen to free economics. After a few months I developed into a more inquisitive culturally, aware and thoughtful person. I can talk about anything how, with sincere curiosity and patients very much interested in the house and wise that I was oblivious to just a year ago. So thank you. You're welcome, Kelsey. I hope your healing continues. There's one more freedom through listener. I like it here
from pretty new listener pay. Anders Stephen Dublin has gone about how it yourself good nice to meet you nice meeting you two Anders waste is a twenty three year old athlete. His sport is right, when you first started rowing what we're your aspirations. I wanna go use nationals and then character to the college in getting retreated foregoing. You know it simplifies the process quite a bit, but I will, to do? Well, I use nationals and my senior year I place third, so I consider that a success, so I wasn't the best. a grown up, but I wasn't the worst waste got recruited to row at Brown University in Providence and he qualified for the international under twenty three competition, the you twenty These, I think the moment I decided I wanted to go to the Olympics in New. I could go for it was that you twenty three is when will they coaches said now? I expect to see alive you, twenty twenty. I said to myself ass way too far away. That's not gonna happen
for toys sixty years, you know you're young kid. You haven't really face loud to feed and you're. Just hear you I was area and that dialogue like I'm, going to do it, and this was how long, before the actual twenty sixteen Olympics. This was in twenty thirteen, So you were, you were twenty years older, so the right and a new, no yeah, I'm gonna at so far away after I graduated from brown ways did get an invitation to go to Princeton to work out with the: U S, rowing squad and try to qualify for the twenty sixteen Olympics on either the ape man boat or the foreman boat. He knew his chances weren't terrible outsail. I point percent, because in a guy from collegiate to the senior team, it's a whole different ball game and I was never really exposed to that level. Speed you just can't get expose their level speed before you actually immerse yourself in it. These are geyser. Thus, in the world, some had been training out after college for four plus
there is a lot of them. Have olympic metal through them had olympic Mental, so it sir, it was very, very strong crew so being young guy who had good success at Brown, like I M just going to answer that here does not always the case. Let me ask you: what is the average or what is the median age at which rowers peak? Would you say say around twenty eight twenty seven, so you are hoping to qualify for the for the eight year, one of twenty six people within twelve slots right talk about decision time when the team actually gets chosen. Walk me through that. I remember the curtains. the boat on the water and he's like all right. You three guys are you four guys are going to go work at, which is the indoor rowing machine. I was like, oh no, it's like. I need to speak to you after practice, God. You marijuana here that any said NEO, basically you're, not gonna mediators I think you're down for twenty twenty but
right now you're out of contention for the into four hours ago. God had you respond internally and externally. I was angry, Azra angry, but you know you can't blame the coaches. That's that's! No! of course, they're trying to make the fastest bow, and if they don't see you being the vast his person than no that's that's the way. Life goes now. Waste was facing a long and sad drive home to Rhode Island from the Olympic Training Camp in Princeton also said, I I said to myself: I can spend forty five hours listening to Beaver her death is lived. Her so like that is someone to take my mind? Are thrown petty ever listened to I guess you know I listen to one for only half way through and then I stopped and then what Did you end up? Listening to a free economic radio show on that very happy trip back, Rhode Island. I open up my father. What's up
the gas to look at the ones you downloaded it for economics, one of my friends from college. Listen to listen to you guys, and I looked at the time You had a look at this one sounds interesting now and sounds interesting. Let's its load him up what was enable so. Do you know how to be more productive, gotcha see any why'd. You pick that title because everyone be more productive Good answer is like a year ago, I'm always trying some new and- and this seems like a good talk- ass- listen to you to do that. We released that how to be more productive episode in April is part of what we called self improvement month. It featured an interview with the writer Charles do hid. It was very small segment of the per capita like five minutes. Where talked about Marine Army rangers, I believe, and how to get leaders out of then they they didn't say you were natural leaders only that you said you were hard working and your success is built off hard work and not talented or not. Have a natural
Are you are so this drill sergeant told me that he never tell someone who's unnatural athlete that they just ran a good race? He, only tells like the small kind of wimpy kids that they just did a great job running the core is a whole, never tells anyone that there is such a thing as natural born leaders, because that flies the you don't have any control over, whether your leader, not instead what they do is they complement shy people who take a leadership role and they say to them look. I know it was hard for you to do that, but you did a great job and growing up. I was always decently athletic and hours had pretty good success in athletics, and the same was true high school and college- and so I put in the work you know you can't not put in the work specially brown. So I was like okay, I put in the work, but at the end of the day, all my successes can be attributed to how good my body is growing and are for their part, essayist,
I had to do a north one? Eighty on that it was. Moreover, ok, my talent stuffily helping me, but my total success is gonna be too and by how much work I put it in, and there is also another progress there. I think it was how to be greater anything how much dedicated practice has put in It sounds like you're, a hard worker, but if I'm reading you correctly is sound, you're, saying that, even though you worked hard a you could work harder and be you could work in a more strategically engage in what yeah what we called the liberal practice. So was that kind of the light bulb that when offer you, which is oh yeah, it's not like I'm lazy, but I can get along. more out of me. Then I have been in the past. We are so wrong, especially studies state. That's how we train its allowed. A steady state and no. She fell at your mind, wandered during all those hours instead of okay. This is what I need to do to fix my technique. Her keeping engage
you can read the hours and you can get the heart rate that you need to be, but you're not gonna make the technical changes that you need to and it's not like I was zoning out, but who is like ok this text, the changes in early working that well, I'm gonna just go back to steady state press instead of all right, I'm gonna practices over and over. For the new two hours, I'm on the water now and then the two hours I'm on the water in the afternoon, I'm gonna nail no matter how long it takes, and so a sort of a shift away from doing the steady state to do the steady state you'll get the hurry to doing the steady state to improve to put in the hours that actually would improve my speed, instead of relying on our mobile has made to terror at the time home, Rhode Island having failed to qualify for the twenty sixteen Olympics in the four
and boat or the eighth man boat and his wife was already thinking about one more option, he could try to qualify for the two man boat, Coxal Spare. In that event, the coaches don't decide who qualifies it's only your time that matters you got hold of a potential partner, a veteran? U S, rower, nor a drink in the partner. I got Nargis is a very hard worker, and so he drew up our training plan and I was like alright. Let's do this. This is what's going to make us when the trials, and I think if it was before that for the podcast would have been okay I'll. Do this word but I don't know if it's really going to make us faster. I think it's really decided by you know our body build and how talented we are growing, and so it was no. I attacked the work that we had with a little more purpose. Maybe I would uphold the same spots on the earth. but the technical changes I made on the water with this new mindset stock, and we got so much faster as a result of that ensures that mentality shift
instead of working hard to work hard. You know, working hard to to win a race in. Did you tell me that you had a new approach. I don't want to they can follow me. He was one of the older guys were the younger guys like I, let's do this. What would you have that he would say, like oh you're, finally discovering Anders that you actually have to worry about you pretty much that you will do your me forever forbid and I'm just curious. Like did you come to feel at some point in this process? that man, I really have just been relying on my genes and not really you know a north. Trying is the right word, but term did. Did you feel that you'd been kind of failing to tap a lotta your potential Yes, there are inaccurate, even see that which is how its speed there. The pair there we were rowing got in a. We were pretty quick to start with, but we just right
really started improving our speed or top and speed quite a bit. Throughout these months we had together waste and Caribbean had to go to a series of time trials. Finally, the moment of truth, the Olympic Qualifying Race, with only one team to real to represent the United States? We gotta starting line, and I think my right. There was like one hundred and sixty one one hundred and sixty five just before the start, and we had a very good start and we did what we did best and kept pushing him. There's a pair from a club in Pennsylvania from Philadelphia, was entirely fastened. We knew there were going to be our main coming fishing because they beat us in the time travel there. How many boats in the final there's four, and so we were feeling pretty confident, but that other boat was always how fast are they going to be, and then they beat us in the time. For also is anything could happen when those things where it's it's do or die,
so got two thousand meter mark. We were, a little bit ahead of them and you know I wanted to win very badly but nareg. You know the depair partner. That shows me he's been training for six years and so I said yeah I got to do for him and now it's sort of for kick to keep going. Even when I can, I see that well in my body was saying. Please stop, please stop, please stop, but to be the best and to eventually beat the best you have to go to those legs. You just talk about. Is this a commonly known danger among rowers? Is that year your body is doing such crime these stuff that you literally lose your site temporarily. Heroin sets very common put, it has happened before and as one You know usually happens at the Olympics, her leading up to the Olympics, World championships. You have people that go crazy, we want a well will do anything to win. That's the last need to go to the when that's the first time,
have the man, it's not gonna, be my last. So what is actually look like from your perspective, then no experience it was sort of the peripheral start going and there's one spot just took pretty much. and our stage, and that was all I could see TAT just there was there wasn't sudden, but it was definitely noticeable once it was like. Ok, I can't really see anything besides. It's one little daughter, my partners back how long it at last. I think it was like three hundred four hundred metres to go witches think a little over a minute, and then once we stopped, I prefer my vision back fifteen to twenty seconds afterwards after I could just back in the bow and didn't do nothing, were you worried for a moment that you had somehow lost your eyesight for real, or did you just know that that you would be ok? I knew
At that point, I agree here with only one, but we did member Laszlo kid you watching the Olympics a day like I want to go that. I want to our dna awfully. I want to do that and pick up wrong at that time. So I was looking at now basketball, those other sports and is one of those things where it's just so. you're gonna be on the base station the world doing what you pray do best against people who are the best in the world. And so, when I crossed the line Gabriel Shout and I swear just passed out a little bit. I so you're realizing now you're going to the Olympics. You're going to Rio me listening to your story. Little selfishly, I'm thinking. If I understand your story correctly, because for economics, radio play this role in reorient in you and getting you to take up Cox's pair, go on the two members and eventually make the Olympics. If I'm ready a correct, I think our role in this means it. Essentially, I
Also in Olympian, that's fair rigour that I dont think I would have made the Olympics. If I had lost their August was put it that way Anders ways in his partner, Nora, Gregson, didn't metal in there
the Olympics, but they did pretty well making it to one of the final heats and you should definitely keep an eye out for ways the twenty twenty Olympics. Now we can't promise this olympian level of success for every one listens if economic radio, but I do hope that listening to show overtime has made you at least a little bit more curious, but more optimistic, perhaps or more sceptical, or maybe just help. You pass the time in a slightly more meaningful way. If so, do me a favor and make a donation w and my c so that we can keep producing this show just go to freak economics, dot, com and click, the donate button or text the words week to the number six nine eight six, six thanks coming up next week on economics. Radio is innovation overrated. Should we be spending more time I'm in more money on maintenance people always
more about how new round can be broken, then they think about how existing institution can be sustained or existing facilities can be maintained in praise of maintenance, that's next time and for economic radio economics radio is produced by W and my c studios and W productions. This episode was produced by Caitlin Pierce. Our staff also includes Jake how it merit Jacob Christopher Worth Gregory, no occurrence Alison, Hockenberry, Emma Morgenstern and Harry Huggins. You can subscribe to this part cast on Itunes or reverie, that you're pot guests and please come visit for economics. Dot com we'll find our entire podcast archive, along with a complete transcript of every episode ever made. Also, music credits lots more thanks for listening.
Transcript generated on 2021-01-24.