As CEO of Microsoft, Steve Ballmer was famous for over-the-top enthusiasm. Now he's brought that same passion to the N.B.A. -- and to a pet project called USAFacts, which performs a sort of fiscal colonoscopy on the American government.
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If you'd like to listen to free economic radio without ads the place to do that is sticker premium five dollars a month and you can get free month trial by going to stick your premium dot com and use a promo code freak. You also get access to all our bonus. Episodes and you'll be supporting our show to that sticker premium. Dot, com, promo code, freak thanks, so I have read that you're worth an estimated wow estimated on a no thirty one point: three billion. Does that sound about right? Do you have any idea? I've read the estimates, the factor that cop met but suffice to say we The same publications, Steve Bomber was the ceo of Microsoft from two thousand to two thousand fourteen. He was paid
handsomely, but not anywhere near thirty billion dollars worth of handsome. That came from a Corky deal that dates back to when he started Microsoft. He joined in nineteen eighty as the thirtieth employee, starting salary, fifty thousand dollars, but with a healthy profit share and when that profit share became from the companies perspective to healthy, it was converted into stock ownership. The result bomber was awarded eight percent, the company stock, the same share. As all other Microsoft employs combined, who weren't named bill gates and Paul Alan Far as I can tell you're the law just owner of Microsoft, shares in the world since Bill Gates and Paul Alan of both sold off more over the years, and that looks like a pretty awesome decision share if, as we speak today, is around sixty nine bucks. All time high.
What I can tell. Why do you stay in? Well, I didn't basically believe in selling when I would see of Microsoft. I thought if I'm selling shares are not showing commitment to the work that I'm doing. I certainly already sold enough over the years that nobody could say I was ever gonna go hungry but you're running accompany you have to be bought in if you're not bought into what you're doing. It's not ok, alma recently dipped into his fortune to launch a project he's very passionate about, of course, he's pretty passionate about everything. Here he is at a Microsoft event. In the year two thousand, the new project is website called USA facts. It's a sort of fiscal colonoscopy of the american government. If I'm a citizen, I don't wanna, know just where the government got its money from her in what where it spent, but is it working at all, or at least what activities at generating so far, this project is key
farmer that ten million dollars we did not nothing, although killing ten million dollars offer thirty billion dollar wad is the normal person equivalent of ordering latte instead of a coffee, but don't worry bomber. And another more costly passion, wrappers personal burs. He has time for me passions because he no longer confronts the daily headaches of running the world's biggest software company headaches lake. The latest cyber attack that hit computers running Microsoft, Windows O S, here's what you need to know about the rats and where they ve been dubbed Wanna. Try the files on your computer and demands three hundred dollars in big again you re, not Steve bombers, headache anymore, nor does he have to answer any more for why Microsoft missed the rise of the smartphone. Although, if you ask him he will answer, we did not take the right path, all that and much more from one most dynamic business men in recent memory.
I'm happy! from W, and why see studios this is freaking out mix. Radio applaud cast at explores the hidden side of everything. Here's your house, Stephen Gardner, Steve Bomber, dropped out of graduate school at Stanford to join Microsoft. Before that he graduated from Harvard its Remit bill gates. Bombers degree was in applied mathematics, but he wasn't always good. At math, his father worked at Ford in Detroit EM and Steve was eight. The family was transferred to Europe. I spent about a month in the second great in Europe, and the math teacher told my parents this
oil is not good at number she's going to fail and third grade. I will say that was the initial clarion call for me: Dick focus on numbers and get good. He did get good. In fact, by high school he got hooked on math I wanna go to college. I wanted to be a math physics, major, I love number and what I learned was numbers tell great stories. I at least for me and there's a certain set of people, can see it that way. If you want to paint the picture of how big and how small and how things fit together numbers and charts. If you will, that derive from numbers can be very, very powerful. This was a power that bomber exercised fully at Microsoft, one of the most important contributions, I think I actually made was helping to structure the full set in
numbers that are available in a complicated business ended a few simple kind of reports. The people could read and know that if they focused on those, they understand the business and understand how to drive the business and improve performance, ok, whose Billy buying pcs, how many are going to schools, how many are going consumer hands? How many are going into smaller businesses and larger businesses, because each of those represent different kinds of opportunities that need to be mind indifferent way. So the numbers tell the story that can direct action can help put things in context, etc. Using numbers to put things in context, telling a story that can direct action. That's gonna thing we try to do on for economics. Radio seems pretty sensible. Doesn't it
But there are some realms in which numbers, rather than being used to contextual eyes or illuminate the situation there used to exaggerate their obfuscate. You know what I'm talking about right like public safety, the murderers and our countries the highest spending forty seven years. Why did you know that? Actually, it's not, but also realms lake, the state of the economy, the down ass, a twenty thousand Mark Wednesday morning and bend realms like government spending. I thought it would be interesting to paint government and what it does and what it takes in from its citizens what it puts out and what kind of outcomes it gets not by adjectives, but by the numbers, the resulting portrait, USA, facts, dot, Org, synthesizers, thirty years worth of data
federal state and local governments. All in government takes an annual revenues of about five point: two trillion dollars and spends five point four trillion dollars. If I'm a citizen, I don't want to know just where the government got its money from whom, and where it spent, but is it working at all, or at least what activities at generating up. There are a lot of teachers, in this country, and a lot of government does is to teach that's the biggest profession, be it at the red level, the k through twelve level, to be precise ten million nine hundred and seventy nine thousand two hundred and sixty public employees work in education and it the large amount of money, it's over seven hundred billion. It's about fifteen percent of what the government spends over all and you say: ok for seven hundred billion. Do we like, and then we give you the historical context. Do we like with the ramp up in spending? Is education spending is growing fast,
than spending overall. Do we like the kind of outcomes we're getting a new see something like thirty or forty percent of kids are proficient at grade level in fourth grade reading that doesn't some good enough. I know you ve been very outspoken, that this is a non partisan, non policy oriented project but guessing there are many instances where you see something, whether it's about the number of educators we are relying on education or the rise in health care. Expenditure is something like twelve hundred percent over the past thirty five years. I'm guessing that all of these things, to trigger some thoughts in your mind about well now that I know this. We should probably think about doing that. Well, what I, say in general, is: I do believe in democratic process in the sense that
my voice- or my opinion, is one in a sea of three hundred and thirty million opinions, not all whom could vote, but none the less it's one in a sea of opinions, the most important thing I can do here is ground in the facts, as opposed to have an opinion on every topic in the numbers. That's up to folks to to draw their own conclusions. There are a couple things that really are on my mind, both from reading there and other work, I'm doing with my wife. I am a business person still in my heart, if you will and the notion of running deficits every year doesn't seem sustainable to mean in reasonable people can disagree about that. Actually, economists on both sides will have have opinions on that, but I do look at this and say I'm not sure how it should get better. There's a variety of ways in which that my clothes, the democratic process, will have to be part of driving Matt, but I will
How about that is a long term overhang on our kids. I think we showed that the total value of assets held by american households is called about. Eighty eight trillion and the amount of debt held by the public's about fifteen trillion It's way to think about it. We own eighty eight trillion dollars worth of stop and we owe fifteen trillion of it back out. It's just a way to sort of say: what's the scale of our debt, how will that change over time? But you can increase taxes you can do. Is expenditure that something's got to be worked out in the democratic process? I'm silent on on the topic bomber and his team, modeled USA. Facts on the ten k report that public companies file with as he see to lay bare their financial and organizational details? Well, if not, lay them bear at least give investors a chance to gauge the company's wellbeing. How surprised where you that a ten Kay
For the? U S, government did not exist. Well, I guess I was pretty surprised when I got started, maybe not that that didn't exist, but that very little that was integrated and complete and cohesion. Current existed, weathered existed exactly and attend K, format or not the notion. That said he look. We really want to see these numbers in context of one another. Well, there are things you can look out for the federal budget, but it doesn't factor and state and yet I look out my window here and most of the roads were built with some combination of state federal local money. So how can you look at just one element, so the notion
There was nothing holistic across state, federal and local surprised me. The notion that the federal government didn't even consolidate its stuff into sort of a coherent whole, probably didn't surprise me could, because young people tend to organise by stove pipes Cabinet depart. So whatever it's it's hard unless somebody's charter to really bring everything together until story. So how did your picture mental image of the? U S overall, change as a result of this yeah. I guess I knew that medications, sure security were a big deal, but not by the numbers Did I really understand how big a deal they are in terms of kind of what government does? I call those savings, programmes, because your laying away money for either your health or the rest of your living in retirement and the degree to which, by the number,
If you will, the government is involved in essentially helping people save. I guess on the theory that Odin save on their own and through social security. Medicare there's also a degree of wealth transfer, which I think everybody can form our point of view, whether that's good thing but or or not, but there is both wealth transfer and savings going on, and that is a much larger thing then I guess I even new, despite the fact that it was kind of in my blood, but the numbers sort of brought that clear in attacks talk introducing USA, FACTS bomber explained views on philanthropy, while his wife had long been engaged and philanthropy. He had caught the bug he felt that being a law abiding taxpaying citizen essentially was being a philanthropist sending the government money that they distribute on your behalf. I asked him what change that view are used
I can find communities are kids that when they are born in their born poor, the likelihood sue for super super high. They stay poor. I e they just don't have much of a shot. That's not ok, no matter what governments doing that hasn't gotten better. That is a pocket. Where will take something other than business as usual by government and philanthropy? Must private citizens not forget philanthropy? Private citizens must have a role in, and that would be an example. It turns out. Philanthropy cannot solve these issues for kids, who are born without opportunity, but philanthropy can help fill in the gaps around the things the government does an philanthropy can help test out, improve things. For governments willing to invest, but philanthropy does have to influence government action if all kids in America gonna get a real chance at the american dream, but it does team that there are a lot of wealthy well intentioned
and really informed people. In this space I mean look, we could just take former Microsoft people, and that's already a lot of wealthy well intentioned and empirically driven people in this space, and I know there has been progress, but you know you talk. Philanthropy serving a roll of discovery of better The dollar g, better our. Why and so on, but it's still the guy meant that in a lot of cases, especially good education, as you pointed out, that is actually I'm doing the thing right, whether its transportation, policing, teaching and so on, and it seems as though the leverage that exists between say the philanthropic community and policy enactment that that leverage has not grow even though there is more and more you no good work in that space. So do you see that, is being really a viable way to influence policy or do not want to say it's just. You know guilt to sway,
I don't mean to be it in a negative about it like that, but it doesn't seem is we're working toward better government end or policy making methodology. That's that's my fear. First of all, I think it's probably important say that there's a bunch of nonprofits out there who are doing very good work, but most of their funding does come actually from government. Most of the not for profit in the social service sector would have great and fifty percent of their revenue comes from government, but government money does Really cover full overhead, it's very hard for them to exist, and they do need to fill in overhead with philanthropic dollars, despite the fact there being driven by government. There is a role for philanthropy, it's not of highly leverage role, but it's a very important role. So there be number one number two We have certainly found one organization we really love called strive together, but essentially not
profit intermediaries that form in communities and bring the schools potentially the police transportation authority. To gather to look at these issues is a community issue and try to say how do we focus as a group on improving outcomes for kids, particularly educational outcome, Those are the best proxy for measuring a chance at opportunity. Last but not least, is the set of programmes that my wife really gotten excited about under the rubric of what they call pay for success most not for profit today for their work get paid. Her activity, not outcomes, and there is a view that the only way to sort of bootstrap government changing its procurement policies is to have private sector that is philanthropic resources. Help stimulate these kinds of contracts, give government a little bit of what I call the venture capital money to try them out and move forward
I hear bits and pieces of that paper. Success model now and again, very you know few and far between. Can you give a couple examples of where you ve heard that working well yeah? Now they are few and far between that does mean they should be given up on. There was one that was done. You know, with recidivism on people in prison in Rikers Island? That's one of the sort of celebrate notable probably works, but might not work cases where, essentially, people are getting paid by the success in keeping people back out of August Rikers is jail on a prison, ah prepay education and SALT Lake City. There's a program there to pay that providers based upon how well the kids actually perform in school when they get out of the pre case system, as opposed to just the number of kids go through their pre k programmes. That one has worked. I think quite quite well, but if you look in aggregate
No, they haven't. On the other hand, if you say not, for profits are largely funded by government dollars, which is true, then you certainly would think it's worth putting some time an energy into improving the procurement practices from from that community, just as the government would put effort into improving the procurement practices in the defence sector or anything else, is it hard for you to a job? to the nonprofit. You know mindset or mindsets coming from a very for profit environment driven by you, know quarterly earnings and share price to an environment where it's hard to go out of business. The non profit. Is that tough for you to either adjust or to get them to adjust to your mindset. Will not profits can go out of business. Government can go out of business, but then on profits can, I would say, the big issue is almost similar to the issue that we try to try to provide at least a stab at with? U S, a fax,
which is how do you think about outcomes, because in government or in the not for profit sector, it's nice to talk about money and money out, but you really want to talk about the outcomes. Are we edge? eating our children better, when you talk to say a not for profit, that's involved in helping kids in the twenty four who are out of the workforce get back into the workforce. You wanna measure successful placements of people who last in their jobs a couple years, and how do you get the data? How do you measure it? How do you get the not for profit focused in on it? How do you get the government funding to match up with it, but the problem is first and foremost, what's the right way to measure the outcome in a business? That's actually relatively simple problem: the outcome is profit the of shareholders, who expected that's tougher in this social service and government sectors. Maybe that's why we love sport so much the outcomes are so evident right. It is one thing to you. I ran Microsoft very account.
All business and you don't learn about Europe's real, tough accountability and you get in sport. The game is won. The game is unaware of the seasons over or it's not. You thought You knew binary from Microsoft. This is binary its win or lose right. It's totally binary coming up on economics, radio, Steve Bombers, totally binary experience as the owner of a professional. Voting for a fan start getting angry and calling for heads, including mine, and how Microsoft failed to anticipate the exodus from pcs to smartphones. It's coming up that if this break
How much do you love Gulf? I really love got half my first year retired at play, two hundred grounds just to give you a scale and then I've lighten up since then other things to do among other things, the farmer, does philanthropy shepherding his new website. Usa, facts at Org and taking care of a little trinket. He bought for himself after leaving Microsoft, achieve billion dollar sail the LOS Angeles clippers two former Microsoft. Eight years the farmer was finalized Tuesday. The price bomber paid
four times what the clippers had been valued at, but he expressed no regret and he was happy to spend more money on top tier players. Last year the clippers so far exceeded the NBA salary cap, bomber had to pay nearly twenty million dollars in luxury tax. That was second only to the Cleveland Cavaliers fifty four million dollar luxury tax, but the calves got an mba championship out of it. The clippers haven't gotten past the western conference semi. Three directives on the clippers, pardon we're exciting season and ended too quickly, but we get a chance. Nor off season to turn up our team for for an Ex bass while season now there does seem to be a pattern with the clippers here eve, which is that you perform well in the season, get to the players with high expectations and then don't advance. So this is obviously a very different
the business and running Microsoft, but you had to be pretty diagnostic back in the day with Microsoft. What about now trying to apply that diagnostic cat to a basketball team of the two when, in the competition, all things that go along with that? What do you see as needing to be done to get it to the next level? Well, first of all, we have a very good basketball team, very, very good basketball team. Last year book Boy Griffin, Ankara's ball too, three superstars we're out this year we lost Blake Griffin in the playoffs, it's hard to fight, as they say, with one or two hands tied behind your back, but we have a very, very good basketball team. The goal, of course, is to come you to get better and with the draft and with free agency, while we Draft picks, there's always a chance to two wheel, India, a little bit so to speak, our goal,
The summer's is to get better now. How do you do that turns up means a lot of complicated stop. You have to be able to evaluate talent. You gotta be able to figure out this complicated math problem called the salary cap, so we ve got our work cut out for us. We gotta get our key guys back. We ve got a real to all somewhat and come out you if you will the end of summer stronger, and I think that puts us in a good position. Assuming we stay healthy next year. About hiring for a minute. Obviously Microsoft. You were there for a long time and rose to ceo, which you served in for many years. I get. Are? You were probably less involved in hiring as you went up the chain, but in a place like Microsoft, with ten, Thousands of employees verses, a basketball team. The stakes are obviously much Every choice you make has you know, presumably
more leverage a lot more consequences? Undressed curious, what that's like for you yeah well, of course, as a hundred and fifty some people at the Ella clippers, but there's about fifteen people. Ok, if not, they were actually play. And here I am not a basketball expert. I won't pretend to be in this sense. I think I have two contributions. One I need make sure we have the right, I went running the operation with Doc rivers, whose both coach and present a basketball ops and gunning Lawrence Frank, whose our general manager Navy P a basket. I think we got the right talent when it comes then depicting players. Those guys really form the plan. I think I will a bit of ability to help thing through the math problem of how do you get capacity under the salary cap to go after people? What does that? All look like but at the end of the day, the selection of talent. I count on those guys to two to drive. I be honest with me: you're notorious
we famous for having a lot of fun at Microsoft. Anyone who no should watch videos of you around exhorting: the troops declaring her what you love the company, who, can't you know active to the point of perhaps hyperactive in your decker. Of enthusiasm for that firm developers, developers, development developers, development development and it seemed like your heaven- a blast but be honest with me- is it much more fun as I would assume and maybe wrongly running a basketball team. Then running Microsoft, Burs personal, Persia, work running a basketball team mean running a basketball team. I
a basketball team. I actually have people who run the basketball team, which is which is great, and you know in the case of microbes. You really worrying every day about the future. The enterprise grow or the people that you recruited. You got a hundred thousand people who work for your they're gonna have be stable in their jobs. Question bass, Bottines not going out of business. Listen, you can do better and you can do worse, but at the end of the day it really about people's lives x. The players were, of course, there's always issues about whose days and who goes, and that's both the players choice as well as the team. Choice, what we should say, one reason is not going out of business just to get to the nitty gritty of it is that you are lucky enough to build on to what some people might call a cartel re. When you and pro sports team, you own a piece of the law-
egg, and you know only you guys get to decide if there is added competition and obviously this competition among the thirty or thirty two teams, whatever the Lee Gray, but that's a little bit weird, isn't it well? I think there's good reasons why, in this country at least, there's been sort of a clear regulatory framework with the sport colleagues to promote the kind of competition and end excitement the people what the? U S? Will these teams go bankrupt? They can but they're, not gonna go bankrupt next year or the year after. The tv contracts are by and large locked in there's a fan base, its first exciting. It is a little bit different than launching a new product at Microsoft. You hold your breath and say we put billions in this thing and well anybody by it made the clippers. What's the worst case, we overpaying payroll pay a bunch of luxury tax and we don't win the championship or a monster. Getting angry and calling for our heads, including mine
boys. We can win this thing, you and that's that's fine, but but it's all different. So when you look back at your entire experience, it Microsoft How do you in a nutshell, which I realize is difficult? How do you look back in your mind, described that massive chapter in your life with all its subject? You just give me the kind of summary look. It's just sort of a dream, to be involved in something like Microsoft, in the sense of it, you go from having no place in the world. To being this big, very important, benny you go from world in which technology is completely non d our ties, mainframes blah blah blah Tomb were, in which new technologies- transforming the lives of basically everybody on the planet. We're thing people do
things: they never dream possible through the power of the technology that the company produces. So both in terms of this journey of sort of creating this, this baby It is now a very develop thing called Microsoft and the baby that was the tech industry, the pc and but when I joined a nineteen eighty two, what is there for tech business today? That's pretty cool stuff. The year apple released its first. Phone two thousand seven, you told USA today, there's no chance. The Iphone is going to get any significant market share. No chance. It's a five hundred dollar subsidized item. They may make a lot of money, but if you actually look at the one point, three billion phones are get sold, I'd prefer have our software and sixty or seventy or eighty percent of them. Then I would have two or three percent, which is what Apple might go talk about. If you knew, then what you knew now about the smartphone market globally and iphones, obviously a pretty good success in it, how you might
we thought that scenario. Well, there's two things: what would I have said firstly, and what would I fought different? Let me there actually quite different yet come could better gives out of the new products negative. I wouldn't even now, probably not just say nice things about it. I think there's two or three key things that I missed number one. Apple, did figure out a business model. Innovation in addition to the Tec, innovation, which was this notion of having phone company subsidize the devices, so they looked affordable when the Iphone first came out, it did not look affordable, but with the subsidy model that they developed in conjunction with eighteen d, they took a device that I didn't think would sell and they masked it's real cost in it in a very strong and is it a way into the monthly bill? And I think was the business innovation I missed on top of the product, so we did not take the right path. So apple did business model innovation. We tried to hard
our old model alive, as opposed to move. To a new model which we did later when we really got into the the hardware business, but by then it was too late. I guess in the phone side, or at least the company does I did when they shut down the Nokia thing, at least for now to the kind of rican, better and and figure out a way back in later, but those are the things I felt like. I missed and would do differently today the Nokia thing the bomber just mentioned around the time. He retired Microsoft finalized deal to buy Nokias phone business, for more than seven billion dollars, but it didn't work out at all. Within a year, Microsoft, New CEO, such Adela, rode off the just and fired nearly eight thousand employees removing Microsoft from the phone business. The Nokia purchase was yours, I'm talk about that for a minute and the outcome and other Nokia purchase was
not mine, but type it got done? I recommended it to our board in June of twenty thirteen our board turned me down. I got kind of wild up about that topic, which I think has been chronicled inside nnnn. I didn't think, was handled well. There's one thing to turn me down is another thing: the way it happened anyway, I was a little upset about it, but then, after I made clear that that it was time to go, find a new leader? The boy came back and said: let's go hadn't and by it. And by then I knew I was gonna leave and they still wanted NEO Nazi purchased so we got that done somehow. I guess the board in the company decided that they did not like the board's decision and shut the business down pretty quickly. Yeah. Do you or any one in your family use any apple products we do now? Since Microsoft, not in the phone business, I do have family members who use both
enjoy devices and iphones. What about you? You know how we the USA Facts and non partisan and all about a numbers. I'm saving your of my Microsoft, sir, so proud of me, looking down at Microsoft, Powerpoint now, look here come on an old man. Let me ask you, I'm just curious how much you care- or I guess, how do you care about Microsoft, future success? Well when I ran Microsoft day, I was always consistent and saying number one measure of whether I did it The job or not, would be what Microsoft would look like ten or fifteen years after I left, and so I can't do anything at this stage. You I'm just just I'm just an outside independent guy. On the other hand, course I'm running for the company for three M shareholder, because it is the mark of whether I did a good job for not and part of that is the succession
and oh, by the way I got a lot of friends who work over there and and I think the world of I let me Some of what we call are frequently asked questions if you Steve Bomber the time machine that could go either forward or back. Where would you go and why I think I will go back to about the late seventeen hundreds early eighteen, hundreds to the time of the men I can revolution and the french Revolution, and I'm sort of fascinated to understand the dynamics reading in history, books, manic. I wonder what it would have been like to see the birth of our country and to contrast with what was going on in France. Are there other periods at imo? Others what why Things really are alike around the time of Christ, I'm jewish, but I would have loved to see how Christianity had borne out Judaism, Interestingly, however, none of those picks up the future wiser. Well,
I don't know. Maybe I'm not been good enough to envision the future, maybe I'm too afraid of what it would have what's one thing you ve spent way too much on, but don't regret That may sound like I'm talking about money, but it could be no spent too much time spent too much effort, but something spent way too much on, but do not regret, could also be a certain basketball team. I guess I just right now. I have been a lot of money away a lot of time and we should I this year I probably attend. Eighty or ninety basketball games may be more. Why have a kid who played icicle Basque, a lot easier to get add clips games to that plus what I paid for the team, irritated Bedad or be golf club memberships in time, not off course I don't regret, I dont really got a second of either. What are now hang in the sector,
eighty or ninety games. That means are, you do go to most home games in some away games and for the clippers, almost every home game. I probably got thirty eight, thirty nine out of forty one. This year, plus I probably made about eight away games plus play ops, plus precision, plus twenty odd games, for my son, tell us something that most people, even if they think they know quite a bit about you probably don't know about you that are super super super supervisor. Kid is our aim. If somebody's father was home, I set out in the park, as I was just too nervous good, he rue School, my mom, cracked the window and get me did do breathing exercises that I wouldn't lose it out of fear. Before I got to my hebrew school classes, yeah pretty painfully shy is again
Anna had you get over it once I get sort of capable at things, then my confidence comes with capability. That got reset when I went to college again I get nervous and then capability built when I went to work at Procter and gamble. My my roommate friend of mine, who started same day. He said it was kind of like shaking my hands like shaping this very clammy thing, because I was just so nervous to be there and then, as my capability grew, so did my confidence saint same thing. When I get, business school same thing? When I got the Microsoft, it doesn't happen as much anymore, but there still situations where I get pretty unearth. What is one story? that your family always tells about you once story. My family always tells about me. Well, I guess it's the story of how I am, I am afraid, basically a falling down and I have been ever since I was a kid
I kids will tell you the story that that there were there, but when I was five years old I was afraid or what down the hill of eager six years old, baby game of capture the flag and one of my dad's friends who was an immigrant from Austria, courage and and showed me had had a walk down the hill side. Where you see you in, for my my kid still call data, Germany, it down the hill and did you get over that fear falling? Did you get past that I still go down the hill sideways that's it for today's show, thanks for listening and thanks to Steve Bomber for as always holding nothing back, you can find his new project at. U S a fact that Org coming up next time,
on Economics, radio, we all know the story about wealthy people right now. Just you I am also agrees that the more money a prison have, the more likely she is to be an inconsiderate, brood jerk put. Is that true or wealthy people truly more selfish and how on earth do you scientifically measure this yeah? So for us the results were quite shocking. What happens when an economist dress like a male carrier and intentionally Miss delivers envelopes with money in them too rich and poor households. Its next time on for economics, radio for economics, radio is produced by W and my c studios and governor productions. This episode, produced by Christopher Worth or staff, also includes Shelly Louis Merit Jacob Red result.
Stephanie Tam, Eliza, Lambert, Alison Hockenberry, Emma Morgenstern, Harry Huggins, in Brain Gutierrez, with engineering help from Rick Kuan Yew can subscribe to for economics, radio on Apple podcast, sore sticker reverie get your PA. You can also check out our entire archive at free economics, dot com. We can stream or download every episode we ve ever made or can read the transcripts and look up the underlying research. We can also be found on Twitter, Facebook, etc, etc, or the email at radio at for economic sector.
Transcript generated on 2021-01-23.