If you'd like to listen to free economic radio without ads the place to do that is sticker premium five dollars a month and you can get a free month trial by going to stick your premium dot com and use a promo code freak. You also get access to all our bonus. Episodes and you'll be supporting our show to that sticker premium: dot, com, promo code, freak thanks if you're a big golf fan and statistically speaking, Rommel, certainly not, but if you are, you know this is the week of the. Championship. Americans call the british open. It is the oldest and arguably most important major tournament engulf this year is being held at the Scottish Course car Newski, which is so difficult, often called car nasty. canoes D, also hosted the open back in ninety ninety nine. The golf course was, so hard that it inevitable was going to give us some bizarre conclusion: that's brindle Shambley. He played on the PDA tour for fifteen years,

now he's and analysed for the Gulf Channel. There was going to be train wreck at some point and yet on the tournaments final date, on the final whole stood a man who obtained the savage course. The gulf is good, the young man. At this moment it will be interesting to see what he does that this man with one hole to play held the three stroke lead so obvious was his impending victory that his name, had already been engraved on the opens. Iconic trophy cleric. Jug it read. John Vanderbilt is very handsome. Debonair frenchmen, you know, and he had a gorgeous golf swing. Vanderbilt was ranked just a hundred the second in the world. He was not a good driver. The boy did, DR long. He drove crooked, although that way, for whatever and he found another gear that way he did. Dr long history wasn't necessary, Lee in Vanderbilt favor. He would have been the first Frenchman in over a hundred years to have won the open champion

Then there was a sense infringement, don't win, majors frenchmen paint beautiful paintings and they re milk about democracy. Revenge, they don't win the open championship, but standing on the final tee with the three stroke lead if you're a professional golfer, you will not lose that tournament. How ludicrous would that be? Imagine a professional chef he's about to make an omelette because to crack and egg on the side of the bowl buttons. Ed. You somehow misses the bull entirely smashes the egg all over her face. That's how ludicrous it would be too booze. Golf tournament standing on the last tee with a three shot lead. It would require a grotesque combination of decisions and actions. There's a word for this. It is such a horrific word that some people don't even

to say it allowed we're not one of those people yeah, there's lots of different ways. People can choke It gives an amazing things because it really do have to strike Riven. It doesn't have to be. The Olympic Games can be when your pay parking and people around you are watching raid today, economics radio when we choke why we choke- maybe just maybe not to go there. This is pretty. This is the place is so so so so sad from stature and debonnair productions. This is Reaganomics radio, the path ass. It explores the hidden side of everything. Here's your host Stephen definite

if we're going to talk about choking, we probably need to bring in some psychologists Andrews Eriksson and I'm a professor of psychology at Florence State University year until ass, the Florida Anders Ericsson Pioneer of the deliberate practice movement and the ten thousand hours idea has been studying expert performers for years. Ballet dancers, gymnast and all sorts of athletes. We look that chest experts, so virgins doctors, teachers, musicians, taxi drivers, recreational activities like golf Even there's some research on on scientists define choking forming. As you see it, We're talking to me, as is actually somebody who cramps up and in some ways becomes unable to in a really act and approach, the current situation or or acts in a very decreased performance I've defined.

Poking as worse performance. Then you d expect from an individual, given that there is a high pressure stakes associated with the situation in that sea on by luck, I'm cognitive scientists- and I am president of Bernard College at Columbia, university before coming to Barnard by luck, ran the human person lab at the University of Chicago? She also wrote a book called choke so, I'm curious to know if you can sort of rank the different domains that people engage and regularly and where were most likely to choke. I really think that any situation where there's expectations for success can cause choking and it doesn't have to be- You know the Olympic Games, it can be when your parallel parking and people around your watch it red or your fear, in an elevator and.

trying to figure out where they're going to say something to the person next book. You know we talk about these epic moments of choke aim, but the its desired. Perform at our best and situations which were evaluated, happened constantly gimme a little bit on the characteristic if those who were more and less prone to choke what about high iq versus low, I q in my research and in others we ve shown perhaps counter intuitively that Indonesia, to have the most ability to focus most working memory in the most fluid intelligence are actually more prone to perform. Lay under stress, and the idea is that if you normally devote lot cognitive resources to what you're doing and being in a pressure felt situation robs you of those resources. You can't performers why you ve just described all the reasons why I'm not very good at playing golf under pressure and what

well, say gender mail this female, more or less likely to choke, I think it's really depends. on the situation. So we know that when women are aware of stereotypes that they shouldn't perform well maybe they're aware of stereotypes that men are better at math, even though I think Stereotypes are quite unfounded, just being aware of that can affect how they perform and can be, because Europe anxious about math, and so you can't calculate the Tipp on the Norville as you're. Smart friends look on or it could be because you're a girl in a room full of men trying to think and compute math bombs and you are aware that there are ideas out there that you shouldn't be as good at what you're doing and then let me

Just ask you one more kind of summary about surroundings, so I know that you're right, so I kind of love this, but also felt a little creeped out no offense at your parents would often try great distances to see president an academic seminars and by great distances we're talking Austrian, You don't know who to Australia to see you give a talkative seminars at true yeah. true and its altruism and my current raw, my mother's, shows up at lots of events, and I've actually instructed my assistant give out my calendar without permission to her. It's very supportive, also stress and do so. that no talk about choking in a what might call a friendly environment verses, a hostile environment. There is

showing that when you have a friendly faces in front of you, people who are supportive, although that could feel nice, it actually creates pressure, filled situations You often start thinking of yourself as they might, and so, when my mother is in the room, I sometimes think of myself as a young girl, and you also quite self conscious. In a recent episode about the World CUP, He looked at the research into why there is such a strong home fielded manage in most sports. The most plausible explanation is that referees are subconsciously influence. By the home, crowd and may make one or two key calls in the home teams favour the research. Also, oh, that on balance athletes themselves do not perform better in front of home crowd. In fact, we see on bylaws tells us that friendly faces may actually create pressure, filled, situate.

You have to wonder if on some dimensions they might perform even worse, My main research interests are behind economics contest, fury and sports economics. That's Alex Cromer he's an economist at the University of Saint Gallon and Switzerland. He recently co author to paper called choking under pressure in front of a supportive audience evidence from professional Biafal on that is the sport combining cross country, skiing. With precision rifle shooting for equipment. Go rumour analyzed the performance of more than four hundred by athletes, male and female, over fifteen years of competition, including world championships and the Olympics, have they do at home verses abroad? Let's look first at the skiing portion, so we find that homebuyers lids they ski foster home about two seconds, foster. Ok, maybe others home cheers. Duisburg

athletes to ski faster about the shooting, both man and Woman- miss me shots when competing in their home country compared to competing abroad. Men missed on average point one: five more shots at home, then abroad, women, a bit more point, two shots. One may say that this is not too much, but it's quite a large effect. If we take into account at the average time it takes to skip penalty, loop is about twenty five seconds. right for every miss sharp you have to ski a small penalty loop. So this means that, when competing at home it let loose, on average four to six seconds and to put this number into perspective in the Olympic Games in Sochi, the homebuyers lit Entente report in which, by the way, I really love his performance.

It was only zero point, seven seconds away from bronze metal after missing one shot. But what, if skiing faster, is what causes you to miss four shots. So one may assume that, since the ski faster, they have higher heart rate. Therefore, the they miss more, but the evidence Sunday, association between heart rate and shooting performance is mixed. Ok, so that doesn't seem to explain. Worse, shooting at home is there maybe another explanation Second, this foundation is that usually day from the shooting. Thus, in there hurry automatic mother. They don't look around, they don't care about anything, but probably when you prefer Tom something disturbing, you Cromer tells us that by athletes, usually perform the shooting in a very automatic manner, that sounds.

It might be relevant to our choking discussion. So what exactly? Does that mean back to the psychologist c on by we know that sometimes people don't perform up to their potential for Firstly, when they want to the most, and sometimes that happens because people pay too much attention to that details of what they're doing details that should be left on autopilot at the human performance lab by lock and her colleagues didn't experiment with expert golfers and novices, so we set up a putting green in our lab and when we try to ask experts for their memories of how they had taken apart, they couldn't tell us so much about it. The novice the people who are just learning could tell us way more and we thought wow. Might be an indication that these high level golfers aren't paying so much attention to what they're doing so one of the reasons that they might perform poorly under stress as when they start paying attention the way you ve just put. That would not be there. The pricing to anyone who follows, let's say golf per se right,

it is true that you know some. Athletes have these these mom the feelings of being in the zone, but I think you known, we often don't think about this idea, paying too much attention could actually be counter productive. Like you hear, coaches yelling concentrate all the time and so being able to actually show that, when you're at this Well, you're, not paying attention to the details, and one of them and you mess up it's because you start paying attention to those details. Allowed us to start asking questions about how we prevent you from paying attention to the details? What is it that people actually are thinking about when they're doing putting Anders Ericsson also did putting experiments in his lab at Florida state with somewhat different results? So we actually asked all participants to think out loud and prudence, skilled and less skilled individuals, and what we found was that the

killed individuals. They were actually verbal, rising more about thoughts and basic factors that they were taking into account in order to actually decide how they were gonna put the pot. So the argument is that if you're, really skill your actually generating our rich description here of situation, so you're trying to take into account here how basic The ball would roll and where you need to aim in order to have the appropriate a ball path. So I know that some psychologists argue that what separates the better performers adopt here, performers from the rest of us is seen of some form of auto nativity right. That you're going into free flowing state, that's dependent on all your talent and experience, etc, but you're not actually engaging in a cognitive. What you're saying? That's not what you found what we are finding is that experts are able to make adjustments. You know when their performing, so if you're the music.

some in the acoustics them in a given farmers environment is different. You can actually make a deal six months in the same way that a soccer player- Now, when the situation changes, they can actually make adjustments appropriate to that situation, and I think that's kind of what we're finding here is that the really elite people, though Sir Able to keep improving are the ones who actually have a very fine corruption of the situation and are increasing their control? what they're doing as opposed to allowing this to happen. So let me ask you this Anders. To what degree do you believe that choking is the factor or a main factor that actually separates an absolute top tier performer from someone, who's, talented and so on, but doesn't reach the top here? In other words, is the expert is the professional, the very good performer

who has learned to not choke my experiences that choking is quite rare by those individuals that we study, who are consistent thirdly, excelling on it attempts to be almost part of being an expert. so you deal with the kind of situations that would be in our experience is very high. Pressure for other people so that's an interesting continuum. High pressure performances can lead to choking, but performers to compete under pressure. All the time tend to not chip course. It does happen. for me, it was terrifying. Jeremy abbot was when the best figure scale is in the world. He won the. U S men's championship four times and went to the Olympics in two thousand and ten and two thousand fourteen things didn't go so well at the Olympic.

opening, where they quite right here, shoring up rotation, landing together, hard fall there. This is a disastrous performance It was on any other situation had ever been in all my practice and element operation once Ike, the games, everything really kind of leading up to that moment, both Olympics in Vancouver and in Sochi? I was the excited I could see the rings, the moment I went out, Vancouver and in Sofia every insect clarity that I had about myself and about my skating was just me unified by a million and I was just so focus. Ah, not wanting make a mistake. I was wrong mindset. Both times abbot failed to meddle in the individual events, he replied. from competitive skating in two thousand. Sixteen me now, coaches in Detroit

he uses his own experience to help the next generation. I should have in focusing less on outcome. and less on for once and more just on the process and and getting my job done at an end, publishing what I do every single day in training and in really taking all of that experience all of that work and putting it. use rather than focusing on what. If that? What? If this will you know anything could happen, but for, I stated my best. It was never focusing on a placement or total or pleasing somebody else. It was always chest: ok, I'm here and I'm gonna do a job, and that was when I always get it my best, Gatt pits precisely those times when you do start thinking too much that you can flood of performance c on by luck again and so

Any situation that causes you too tend in ways that you might not normally can mess you up. So can I just say I love are issues. I think we're gonna awesome. I mean we have some flaws and so on, but doesn't it seem like a weird counterbalance that we tend to choke most in the circumstances? As you ve been telling us that matter, the most to us does not seem like a design flaw. It is interesting I mean I guess you could say that maybe we have an adapted to those situations, yet I mean. Are we ve certainly been in for situations for a long time, but our level of self consciousness and and met a cognitive ability the ability to know what we and others are thinking is something that's probably fairly recent evolutionary wise We should probably take a look at how we think differently and perform differently as the stakes rights that would have.

very nervous. That's coming up after the break. Also the Gore, details of John Vanderbilt Meltdown and what you can do to not joke yeah, We ve actually shown that getting people to just shot down their thoughts and worries can be beneficial, It's coming up right after this. when psychologist think about choking under pressure, they consider a variety of thought processes that may be subtle and hard to measure. Economists look at choking, but rightly say that you would have paid me a million dollar. He fell, give the best interview of two week worried

easy is an economist at the University of California. San Diego that would have made me very nervous. Debt would have made me put more effort into this we look at the incentives in economics. We think about two ways in which shades going to to affect us. The first is that he felt more you'll put more effort in the task and can't assumption is that more effort will lead to better performance? That's not missus, lieutenant. That's part of choking might be that I can pushes How much do try so hard tat? It will actually backfire. you'll perform worse, can easy co authored when it foundational economics papers on choking is called large stakes and big mistakes. He and his colleagues ran experiments in a variety of places, including India. The reason we wanted to go to India is that of under our money can go a long way

We went to some villages in India in which the daily wage was so low that we could offer them up to six months of salary in our experiment. If they did perfectly well, each participant completed a series of tasks somewhere creative, so dad De Creative one was, for example. to back pieces of metal into into a boxing in an efficient way. Some tasks were cognitive a member, a game in which I would read up numbers newly and to me and then at some point to say, stop and then you'll have to recall the last three numbers that dimension and some tasks were athletic. Throwing gas dark like a balls, so both on a targets and and things like that, the pay out for successful completion of the task was variable. In some cases you get ten cents and others a dollar and in others

dollars and ten dollar was about what they made in a month over there. I opted to agree with me six months of base a lot of money that would make you work much harder right and a question was Are you going to be better? Actually, when you work harder as easy noted earlier. It's a standard assumption in labour economics. The higher pay leads to more effort and that more effort leads to better performance or at least higher productivity. Happened in this case when the stakes were raised all the way to ten dollars. So the findings were striking. You see reduction in success rates across the board. All six games did we it resulted in Laura Success rate where the incentives were really high for the three digit memory game. Roughly forty percent of the participants succeeded under low incentives under high incentives. The success rate, which is twenty percent

for the dark ballgame, the success rate under low incentives was ten percent and run seven percent under high incentives. For the metal packing game under low incentives. Twenty five percent of the participants succeeded under high incentives. Nobody he succeeded or put another way at least twenty five percent of them choked actually were a bit surprised by this experiment because be included, tasks in which we expected that effort will will increase performance, but if you think about it, you can see why the researchers may be shouldn't have been so surprised in these experiments. Increased effort is not simply a matter of in more time the way you might with an assignment work project at school. It was trying to execute the same task with and without pressure. So good, easy and his colleagues want to learn more about what sort of tasks make us succumb to pressure. They ran to more experiments at MIT, using students as a research subjects, sir.

Experiments involved, simple manual tasks like punching alternating keyboard keys as fast as possible. It's really something that you know. If you do it for long Now it's boring, so he felt a your moral. Try may be harder and we believe that more effort will actually increase your performance. Other tasks were more cognitive, like adding numbers and matrices when you think about collective tasks are probably reach your optimal behaviour, your best very fast it now, if I'm really really making it high incentives. You It actually start being. You know distracted again, there were low and high incentive versions of each task since a d, Our doesn't goes far in Massachusetts as it doesn't India, the rewards here, There were up to thirty dollars for the low incentive experiments and up to three hundred dollars for the high. So what we found is debt for debt, keep pressing task when you increase the incentive

from up to thirty dollars, dropped to threaten the doors day sweet for about ten forty percent succeeding to eighty percent succeeding on the other end when you have to add up numbers, the more cognitive one we see a sharp decrease from sixty five percent to forty percent. So when you actually have to put some cognitive effort into this getting day and incentives to be ridiculously high could actually be a bad idea. This would seem to be pretty good evidence that, when activities involve some thinking, we're more susceptible to choke, or is he probably heard from a lot of people over the years? Coaches and teachers and councillors of all

You are capable of doing some amazing things if you can only get your brain out of the way, but that's obviously harder than it sounds. So how can you do that? How can you prepare yourself did not crumble into the very circumstance? does it matter. Most chalk is an amazing thing about. It is because it really do have to strike reared Steve. Darting teaches political communication, the Kennedy School of government at Harvard he coaches students how to perform well in high stakes, public forums, Lake presidential debate we with Red Perry in, and we always tell people in India in an interview, dont, say here, five things I would do Are you seven things that I would do? Can you put too much pressure in the brain

the minute you say it literally. The second those words leave your mouth you're thinking, oh my god. What in the hell are the five republics in presidential debate in that debate? If you remember red Para, governor of tax is one of the front runners for his party stance of the debates. It's three agencies, a government when I get there that are gone, commerce, education and there was a when they say that the third Reich and he'd have been better off after he couldn't remember the third say: well, listen! There's the scores of agencies. I would so whether their three or thirteen

You know me I'm going to go in I'm going to take a knife to that. Damn budget cuz it's too overboard, he probably saved his career. The third agency Perry wanted to cut. He later said, was the department of Energy in the kind of twist that can only happen in Washington. Rick Perry now runs the Department of Energy so yeah worried uneasy at USC San Diego says that in some instances choking now can lead to more success later so actually fell, Chuck wants the penalty could be so high. I would feel so bad about myself that maybe, in the future, be much more prepared which might actually help in performing under pressure. You need to prepare for the complexities of the situations that you were going to encounter a real world Andrews Ericsson again. So if they made a mistake, the first time now this second time they can avoid that same mistake,

what you're describing to me sounds an awful lot: lake, deliberate practice and yes well I think you are completely right because that's exactly what we are hoping you know is to take the real world situation and then actually found some version of it that you would have more control over, so you can actually practising get immediate feedback, make revisions and then basically apply that same acquired skill in the real world situation. How do we get people to focus on aspects their performance that are going to be beneficial for success, especially in those situations that are most problematic c on by lock again going back to her gulf experiments. So we investigated whether going quicker, for example, might help. Eliminate poor performance under pressure or having one key swing, thought that encapsulates your entire stroke might be.

better and we showed that some of that was successful and it leads to the said idea that if you really want to mess your body up on on the back nine, That was a great shot. What were you doing with your elbow great said? So your help let us make people choke more, but what else can you tell us about in this domain? At least, learning to choke less. We also showed that getting used to this type of hyper attention to detail that sometimes comes with performance can be helpful, so really enough violating yourself against the high pressure situations. You see this was still and to practise taking time tests, see this with military pilots and her fighters and people who practice under some of the types of conditions are going up form under an you even see this. If you walk by a college football stadium Friday afternoon, the music blaring getting.

There is used to what it's gonna feel like to be in that Big stadium, This is true in really big important situations, it's. It's also true in those little things we do every day. So, if you're going to give a toaster a wedding practising doing it, while people are watching you and if no one is willing to watch you videotape yourself, anything that gets you use to the kinds of all eyes on you. Ok, support self and realistic and stressful practice situations. What else we only on the athletic field. Invoking ways, to take your mind off the step by step of what you're doing in the moment, especially on those easier performances, so whether it's singing a song or thinking about your pinky toe or thinking about where you want the ball to land rather than how it's going to get there. So this is basically it sounds like if you would summarize all the activities under one umbrella, it might be like distracting you're mine doors, streamlining like how do you think about that? I take controlling you're, focusing on ok, so

controlling what you're, focusing on realistic practice situations, what else rethinking how feeling. So we know that when people remind themselves that that's sweaty, palms and beating heart are in a sign, they're going to fail, but a sign that they're awake and ready to go and their body shunting important nutrients to their mind. That can be really effective. Now is that a charade, or is that real I mean if my palms or sweaty isn't an indication that I am anxious and that, if I just tell me, Well, it's not really anxiety. It's really my body shunting nutrients, I mean. Is that a self lie. A profit from, or is that realistically, you know a counter truth. First, I will just say that I am I I like placebo us I have no problem with that, but I think it's a real truth, because you know Your heart was beating to some extent you'd be dead rate and those sweat.

Palms can be an indication that euro dollar and aroused and ready to go and arousal doesn't have to be a bad thing right. It's bad, when we start thinking it's bad and then, which start changing our performance. I love her. Your counterfactual is always or you could be dead, so let us I very useful, that's inspiring like. I don't want that so yeah yeah as it is a good under its a great opposition ya know, I'm I'm serious. I totally like it because another piece of advice hour, I've always heard it. like envision the worst outcome ray and then I think about how this will not be anywhere near as bad as that, like I am, but did a high stakes golf shot, I think, will what if instead like the club had comes off the club in the back swing in oh my friend you have them. Then I got your right. That's wayward anything from errors. They gravy yeah, actually shown that getting people to just jot down their thoughts and worries can be beneficial

downloading them from mind when, when they feel stressed out in one of the things, but that does it get you to realise. Maybe it's not such a big deal right. What what you're doing is not The big of a deal is your friend getting hit with the club and dying again always comes back to die. What about other means of directing the mind whether meditation, perhaps yeah, so there's lots of research showing that meditative practices can help change? You focus in your ability to focus on what you want and get rid of what you don't that's true with visualizing positive, performance outcomes ahead of time and really you focusing on? Why you should six? it right. What are the factors that that you ve practice? While you know you ve got this, you ve had situation.

Like this in the past, and they ve gone really well. But then there are situations that you haven't had in the past situations at her way, bigger we more pressurize than anything you could prepared for on the eve of their championship. John Nobel was ranked two hundred fifty second in the world and people that are a hundred fifty second world. Don't when major championships Randal Shambley, again talking about the unlikely but apparently inevitable british open victory of John Vanderbilt, the Gulf in Gaza, with some golfing It is with the young man at this moment that it will be interesting to see what he does. That remember. Vanderbilt name had already been engraved on the trophy: all we had to do was score: a double bogey, six or better, on par for eighteen toll. a currency, but it was a devastatingly hard whole no question about it. There is over to the left, a burn down the right Bunker sorted out there to the right o b

out of bounds. A burn is a scottish term for a creek. What made this so unbelievable to watch. Is that it was a combination of what looked to be good breaks. There were actually horrible breaks, rather than playing his tea shot safe with an iron Vanderbilt stuck with what he done all week and he had driver He pushed his drive way. We re. Oh, you look a little rascal peace. He's pushed that away and missed the water has almost what is right in front of the 17th. Take that's a great break if it had gone in the burn. he would have done the math and thought can't go for it. There's no way. I can go for this, because I can lay up three hit on four to put six, I'm an open champion. So now he pulls a two hour now

he's gonna be safe, going to the right. I don't believe this. What is going on here so it hits the stands really hit a pole. Then it's gonna go in the burn. Let's have a look: where is he still short? I think really but he needs and advise aid as this at this moment, but it doesn't go into burn. It hits the bricks the rocks and it bounces over the bar rate break lion just too in the hay rights are not so bad just to any thirty yards away. Thirty, large away so too great breaks, he goes down there with renewed hope. All you gotta do is get this wedge out: again. This is where I would imagine the real choking started, because now there he's in a really difficult situation and swear. He hit a shot

That was really just how describing he it's like. He stopped swinging halfway down What are you doing with somebody can go and stop giving ground in market there and the ball went right in the bar and then It became surreal and he thinks he can play he's gone Gaga, because if this is quite Never seen anything like it before to attempt to hit the ball out of those pure map. So here is pants up. And he decided can't play it so now he gets to go back and drop it first. Good decisions made on the whole- maybe that's right, but but The lie forced him to make a good decision and here's how

get disasters, it's never just one thing: it's always a confluence of two or three or four things that were almost unprecedented. So now he drops the ball taking the penalty shot. So he's he's three and four out hitting five five. In the bunker replied the sailor sell to the worthy plugged into the bed. Now he's got an easy bunker shop, bugger shots or not difficult for professional golfers. Here. about six feet now. Here's the thing to remember is that he makes that pot. Please give him one good, but please and I am almost certain When he made that point, he thought he had one that's why he gives the fist pomp, because he looked ecstatic here. I think he thought he had won, because

I think in the confusion he lost count. I've done it before he lost count because he reacted as if he had one the championship of any looks around like. Why is everybody not cheering craze? That's right! That's right is golfing brain stopped ten minutes ago. I think, but Vanderbilt hadn't one. He made a triple bogey. Seven three men play off for the open championship, the play off to Paul Borri John Vanderbilt. Ever did win the major championship. We called up Vanderbilt ourselves recently to check in with them yet gave, and unfortunately, the connection was very poor, said the tape isn't really worth playing. Will close the transcript unfrequent stock com? You can read it there if you like anyway, we at least chat about

Emily. His continuing involvement with golf Vanderbilt was instrumental in bringing the Ryder CUP to France, this fall and, of course, that terrible eighteenth hole at consisting in eighteen. Ninety nine. I asked if it was difficult to talk about it. It's never been difficult. He said just after not winning the open, it was painful, but you're professional athletes. I asked what it felt like standing on the seventy second tea with us we shot lead. I stood there pretty confident. To be honest. He said I wasn't overly emotional or emotional at all. My nerves were holding pretty okay. I asked Vanderbilt If, during the long and difficult adventure on the eighteenth, all he had indeed lost track of his score and the lead, definitely not. He said lie Five in the bunker he told me, I knew HU. I needed to hold to win the tournament, system this year. became famous for

Having won the open, your seventy second all has been called the worst choke engulfing history. You think that's or fair, and he said I think we need to ask the definition of a joke. I think I had two days to choke. He said so I choke you know. I wouldn't call that a joke. Without a doubt, I would probably use a different word, but certainly not that one earlier I'd ask Brandel Chamblee how Vandevelde had handled the meltdown. I mean his remarks after work were as measured and respectful and appropriate. Magnanimous, is anybody. I've ever heard that had gone through something so dramatic and I again great deal respect for him immediately. A lot of other people gain respect for him to when I asked Vanderbilt himself how

that one whole changed his life. He said you know it's very easy to win with grace. It's a lot harder to lose with an end. Without patronising anybody are blowing my own trumpet. I would say that the way that I see life in the way that I have accepted what happened, I believe that's what people like it's in my nature, to see it the way that I see it, and that's the end of that. I am happy about I wish our Mandeville we're still playing competitive Gulf only so I could route for him to win every week. I agree that losing with grace is not easy, and I agree. He accomplished that and as Brindle Shambley points out, the lost did come with some consolation points. Think about You know that adage that nobody remembers shoe finnish second, while in this particular instance, hardly anybody remembers who won

Remember go to for economics, dot com. If you like to read the transcript of the Jha Vanderbilt Interview, we ve, also posted on sticker premium, about, Secondly, our full interview with Brindle Shambley: we post a lot of extra onstage premium, as well as our full archive ad free just go to stick your premium dot com, slash for economics and use a promo code for economics, the woman three coming up next time on economics, radio! There is another high stakes, sporting event. Every summer it takes place and bicycles. Only one man has ever wanted seven times in only one man had those seven titles taken away from him You know my line must always be up past every drug tested ever given me. Do you think you could have one any tour de France without doping, or was it just impossible?

depends what out, what the other hundred and ninety nine or doing well considering what was actually happening at the time. Considering that the opponents who are actually racing answered. Yes, I said nothing did nothing. Could you one zero percent chance? A no holds barred conversation about the winning cheating the lying. The confessing in the red holding with this my name is Lance Armstrong, That's really good question! That's next time on for economics, radio for economics, radio is produced by Sticker and W productions. This episode is produced by Harry Huggins. Our staff also includes Allison, Craig Low Gregg Result, Ski Gregg Ribbon and Andy Mildenheim.

music you here throughout the episodes composed by Luis Gara for Economics, radio can be found on apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Our entire archive is available on the stitched up or for economics. Dot com, where we also publish transcripts in show notes or gives did your premium is shot good, a stitch up premium, dot com, slash for economics, use a promo code for economics. We can also be found on Twitter Facebook linked in or the email at radio at for economic start, come thanks. You listening! teacher.