The Ford Motor Company is ditching its legacy sedans, doubling down on trucks, and trying to steer its stock price out of a long skid. But C.E.O. Jim Hackett has even bigger plans: to turn a century-old automaker into the nucleus of a “transportation operating system.” Is Hackett just whistling past the graveyard, or does he see what others can’t?
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If you'd like to listen to free economic radio without ads the place to do that is sticker premium five dollars a month and you can get a free month trial by going to stick your premium dot com and use a promo code freak. You also get access to all our bonus. Episodes and you'll be supporting our show to that sticker premium. Dot, com, promo code freak, ok, so I'm looking at you resume, I'm not seeing see over of an auto firm. How can you and me Bob and yet He is Jim. Had a presidency YO a Ford Motor Company. I have to ask: how do you get to our studio today? Lincoln Navigator when's. The last time you wrote in a vehicle that wasn't made by Ford Motor Company, probably a year before I was the ceo, I actually had three other vehicles in my garage. When I was, the board and
of Oliver packing became ceo afford in May twenty seventeen that wave again what a big shake up at Ford Mark fails is out and Jim Hack. It is in when we look, let's face it, Jim Hack, it wasn't all anybody's rate or when it came to automotive succession here at Ford one reason Jim Hack, it wasn't on anyone's radar- is that he is not what they call a car guy in Detroit the world. very much divided into car guys and everybody else hack it, sixty three year old, Ohio native who started out in sales and management at Procter and gamble? for many years at the Michigan Furniture Company Steelcase gleam, eighteen years as ceo and after that, he was interim athletic director at the University of Michigan is Alma mater, where he hired the football coach. Jim Harbour, he did join the Board of directors afford in twenty thirteen, while he was still at Steelcase but like we said, not an option,
candidate for ceo of one of America's big three automakers. However, as it is often said, desperate times call for desperate measures, and the old line, auto industry definitely has an air of desperation about it. Consider the challenges decades, the foreign competition, The rise of ride, share services and autonomous vehicles, environment concerns in the rise of electric vehicles, especially the ones made by Tesla. The rise of urbanization. That bothersome walking in baking in public transportation. The steep decline, in car ownership among young people specifically and more generally, the fact that we seem to have passed P modernization as one transportation scholar puts it so yeah welcome to the Ford Motor Company, Jim Hackett, most ceo we ve interviewed for our secret life of a ceo series, told us about their challenges
and dramatic turn around efforts. Long after the fact, like ingenuity of Pepsico, the few months after I became seal, there was a financial collapse. The written environment, changed the! U S, market slowed down so one had to learn in the hurry: how to run this company through extreme peers of adversity. and there's no book you can read, but Jim Hackett and Ford aren't reminiscing about tough times there in the middle of it right now. What's wrong with Ford what's going on in Dearborn were now learning more from analyse, who believe the turnaround is going to get very painful. They did those under nine dollars a share for the first time in six years. What's going on with Ford? What's going on, is a lot packet recently announced a huge restructuring plan hoping to cut twenty, I've billion dollars in costs. This includes a lot of lay offs,
a realignment of how far does business in Europe, South America, China hack. It also announced that Ford will cut way back on making cars, audio, stood a fiesta focus, fusion and tour, Ford says it's going to focus on suvs and trucks hack. It said at the time that forward would quote focus on products and markets where we know how to win. What will those products and markets be hack? It all. His old school credentials has long been enamoured with the Silicon Valley growth mindset over the past decade. Ford's research and development spending is nearly double, Hackett shows no sign of slowing it down this. We had one industry analysed to say: Ford is burning a lot of cash in a lot of places. Another argued that hack, it will quote keep leading buzzwords like fitness and mobility, with
any real plan to remake the blue oval. Its recently been reported that Ford, considering some sort of merger with be W. The german automaker. That's got its own mountain of troubles. If you had to make a bet on the future afford. Well the people who do make bets stock market investors been pretty decisive, they did close under nine dollars a share for the first time in six years. So how does Jim hack it plan to turn things around its beyond? vehicles to transportation and and and acts transportation operating system. A transportation operating since sounds an awful lot like something a pure technology company might talk about. This leads to several questions. A traditional manufacturing company like forward, really turn itself into a modern tech company. What makes Ford think they can succeed when the companies whose turf their invade
Amazon and Google and Goober already so good at what they do. And what exactly is Ford good at these days? Finally will hack its vision for forward turn out to be a brilliant repositioning or a desperate grab for relevance well that there is a long answer that and will hear the long answer, to this I'm happy from stature and debonnair productions. This is pre economics, radio, the explores the hidden side of everything. Here's your host Stephen Definite forwards.
YO, Jim Hackett was visiting New York and leaks September when we sat down with him in our studio, okay, so the late Gerald Ford, the thirty eight present United States, was great athletes and played centre on Michigan Football team and an American all American Embassy of the team that went to national championships. You also played centre for again and are now the President of board. Tell me that's just the coins, that's hard didn't I that sounds like conspiracy, in and in others, a history. They are quickly with President Ford because he was sitting in office when I played at Michigan he loved the tea. so he landed Marine one on the practice, feel came and talk to the team went to training table with us, two years later, when I'm running Steelcase Invest Michigan, there happens to be a portrait of
that evening someone brings an m m. It's here, my sitting together and, as I became very close to him after he was president, would talk to him, often always before the high state game, with I'm in the one forged oil of detail is that when he, was negotiating arms agreements with Brezhnev in Helsinki. They stop, the negotiation, so he can find out what discordant Michigan eyes digging. Ok, this is a parallel out of nowhere, but I think it's appropriate, the reasons that footballs become dangerous some dimensions and less on others? You know the helmet was invented to prevent skull fracture and it's done a great job at that originally. The helmet is such a good protector that it began to be used as a weapon. Interestingly, with auto travel cars have gotten so
safer over the generations highways of gotten safer, etc? I dont know if drivers have gotten any better, that's r d, proof and yet still less numbers. I saw somewhere in the neighbourhood of thirty five thousand traffic deaths a year in the: U S more than a million a year globally. You know it's funny. When you talk to people, people are we read about terrorism, the word about murder, but if you ask people how many people they know have been cut, it with one of those things very few have, whereas auto for tat. We all know someone so I'm curious ear. you ve, taken over Ford Motor Company fairly recently, and this is away of transportation. That totally changed the way that live our lives in many positive raisins and some negative ways. So what I'd like to ask you is consider for just a moment all the positives of auto travelled to date
in all the negatives and kind of where you see the industry at the moment and what are the big problems or one of the big challenges to address where only with you, but I make a connection a football with that question, but like what happened in football field We studied the mass of the players over that period. Mass equals for right so that the site of the players and your wise starvation, that they could move faster and not locked themselves out cause The brain to take a hundred percent of the concussive shock. So all the design now in the future is about trying to push that outwards and then changed the techniques mass. found its way and automobiles too so the earliest ones. team, three hundred fifteen years, for it is Henry worked on a lecturing vehicle with Thomas Edison. He was a form in him, Edison's factory,
and the early models are really light very small because their time use bicycle components and things like that, and then we seem history, as the mass gets bigger mass production allows stamping tools to take really. Large sheets of metal and for a fraction of the cost of you to do this by hand you get to have them wrapped around those skeletal structures. What's all about its evolution is that the drive to get the vehicle more fuel efficient means we gotta get rid of all that weight in trying to do that? We actually making structures safer for crashes and then, of course, this isn't a reach prediction, but we won't have crashes in the future because of autonomous, vehicles incitement and sensing, and a third thing will talk about, which is the cloud right. The system, that's mediating the
actions of these objects. Saying we have in computing, there's packets, the move really quickly its atomic level they could run into each other and do harm, but their mediated in a way at the speed of light. So we can do this with the design of transportation at the two thousand eighteen consumer electronics show or see yes, Hackett and other Fort executives unveiled several components of a hack. It calls the living street and for its vision of a transportation operating system. Now the power of artificial intelligence. The rise of certain autonomous visa so all going to be connected for the first time in this century we have a mobility. Acknowledging that just won't incrementally improve the old system, but it can completely disrupted
so a total redesign of the surface transportation system with humans in community at the center, but he Dan, by addressing the question that a lot of people had to be thinking, I wonder why furniture guy would be asked to from an automotive company. We did and we asked so Steelcase was regarded as a greek companies work, for which I am I think maybe you had a little something to do with. It was also regarded as an you are regarded as the Wall Street Journal called you a pioneer of the open office, and it really did change away that that and to think about how an office should look and feel and work, and so on. So first of all persuade me that the notion of the open office wasn't just commercial. Idea courage, every company in America in the world to read who their offices so that you can sell more furniture. Well, I do now,
nothing wrong with that. We allow that mom gonna endorse that notion, but I was not the father of it time I come in I see on the Ladys Herman Miller, was really the the early purveyor of the open office and it came from Germany. And the real movement really started here in New York, which is as Erentz went up. It allowed you to get more density, thou. really underline thing. If I want to take credit for a movement, it was shifting the amount of space that you actually devoted to cubicles, Anne and moving that teams. So I called the shift between island we, but to make teams aces, really cool and attractive. We the do some unique things that warrant being done, and I give credit here. I buy this really cool little, Many in Palo Alto called idea, and I mean
spired when I'd like a design consultancy. How would you describe Yonah, Fair and in noted David Kelly, its founder noted for architecture, the mouse with Steve jobs in its first so jobs, hires idea to do design work from outside of apple forever some of them right until when Steve passes, way he's using ideal. I meet them I start learning about the nature of way. Work might be different watching how they work. I want to tell you was right about that. It actually changed the way teams work there. there's another hour on upholding and but it leads to an impact In conclusion, which is that Steelcase needs to see itself, beyond nature and be about work, and if, if there
You think that's enticed Bill Ford, I think about me, was the notion that the company, almost as long lived as Ford, finds a higher purpose. That makes its market now bigger I've known to have a long time. Firstly, that is Bill forward chairman of the Ford Motor Company, announcing hack, its appointment, and you know we ve always clicked in terms of thinking about the future, but don't make no mistake, he's not just a futurists. He is a very good opera executive bill. Ford said the hack. It had shown himself to be a transformational leader at Steelcase that had made the company we're profitable by seeking out higher purpose, and so I'm saying the same thing about Ford, I think our higher purpose is to visit. The site.
vehicle and smart world have many interaction in the future that much bigger than it was in the past. So as Steelcase is too being beyond more than work, even though its making office furniture Ford is beyond transportation, Bina Mobility, company attack, etc. It's beyond vehicles to transportation and am actually transfers patient operating system that we can talk about packets involvement in the fall overhaul began a few years ago when he was just afford board member, and it's really forward among the board, I'm in Palo Alto, with a meeting with the board and bill and were trying to do get ourselves around the question of. How can we manage the kind of the core business in this thing. In parallel, this emerging thing would come to be known as Ford smart Mobility. The unit meant boost the company's role in ride sharing and autonomous vehicles, and I too
The ceo mark fields have great relationship with him. I say you know you oughta get somebody to help. You manage the emerging business, you do your job Two big: you need to do this and he said how about you, Jim, within half a day bill, came and said there is a great idea: why don't you do it, and I thought I ran a company? I want to run a company so like two guys plain office egos will just be chairman and you higher ceo and as I back on that. I was naive about because, go in there and help invented running it and so then running it led to nothing. To do with marks situation you that was, I wasn't in the boardroom anymore. I wasn't reporting to them so marks evolution out a surprise me U business guys in your business, because evolution out that's a very joy. He rehired right, you mark, but Dearborn. Baker Parting ways were ceo mark fields. If you look at shares afford since Marshfield struggle
in July of two thousand and fourteen, it's down thirty. Six percent, but he was a head on a bunch of ideas and I would have loved the reverse role, could I meant reminds the old guy? Could I've teach him What we're talking about me, I miss having him right now with some of the issues that are facing. He really a mastery of you will. Let me ask you a kind of central question here and- and I guess who speaks to your your ascension as CEO as well, because you know we tend to it butte failure and success, often to individuals or a single events when, in fact the world is much more complicated for plainly so Here you are the older guys. You said coming in to the company. Taking of one March fields was put out and
You mentioned earlier that you know that the big concern for the Ford Motor Company Bill Ford was how to balance or how to run in parallel, the core business making vehicles and the emerging business, which is this a smart mobility cloud, basted setter, etc. My big question for you is what made all of you think that Ford needed to be in that emerge business? Well that there is a long answer that, but I'll tell you in the way you gotta think about competitive That is the nature of what makes business win over time is not unlike any other kinds of system by the way bodies win in the battles of the things they have or the wasteful a team winds or the way a market moves. I must No. This is at an complexity theory, and what that tells you is over time. You have to mutate and evolve because
The nature of random things are going to cause more fit things. A comanche solicitous be specific in the auto industry. is the randomness of climate conflict. I mean it's a real science thing. I am we're in support of meaning a really high standard starts to birth. Tesla. You know and then you put a rocket scientist truly in charge of that who has a computer background understands design, I think really well, and he starts to question- The model of the way of vehicles ordered and build, so he's got a lot of that right, is just one in them. He gets copied and then all of a sudden is it there's a company called lucid Motors and Chinese come put a lot of money behind we looked at it. These are P well that are redesigning the car business, so the board sits there and sees this happen over and over again and other industries, and so you know,
gonna be the one that does it so the story I tell is list play Kodak for a moment, and you have to start with. The board is smart they're, not dummies. They have the pan for digital photography. I know I made one of the first digital cameras or they would I know a board member who was there and the issue is you make more money on chemicals and paper than you do this new idea? So if you just do impure- and Smith, comparison stay with the old, so what A guy like me having gone through this in another company, that's happened, Steelcase, train now to look at that problem differently and I am frankly didn't get to talk about that much in the board room, but maybe bill pick that up and. and so now I've got approve, I'm I'm I'm very Anthony about approved to a lot of people that we can make them
or business really profitable were working on that the disruption shouldn't scarce at all, because we can lead in some areas there so I'm done. no data on that, but I want to make sure were on the right track in both of those areas before we get into the space. Fix. Let me just not challenge but question the premise a little bit more because if you look at business history, just look at legacy firms Jen you see that technology and time are really tough on companies. Most companies don't stay round for too long, and when the technology changes enough most companies many try to adapt with the changes and very
You do well, I mean we're watching right now, G ease and a really interesting example on a number of dimensions. They went very broad and so on. What makes you think that, with that substantial history, that Ford is special or the any legacy automaker is special and can Adapt and add on the technologies that are so strong and powerful, but not get beat by the companies that are tech firms and telecom firms, and so here you, you ve, grabbed the the essence of the challenge hears information is it did it before we just forget what do you mean? Well, we always have computing in the way in a factory was run. It didn't have you know the telephone. Wasn't I dont think in nineteen o three was highly pervasive right, so think. Think of think of
we're being paid in the factory out of a patty wagon with care in a real cash instead of direct deposit. So actually have a theory about this, and I am not really but talked other ceos, and I then I'm getting. I get support the notion is that over time you have to think about the best. it's over phases. You can say pass but less hold that off about now and far enough. Sneak a word in near now near far. Now, what separate those time spans. Could we just make up? What's the future, Is it a year's at twenty five year? What I've bought in? its science derived, in other words, what makes the increments Grow in time is more long, red haste, it is on a Charlie rose Interview and Charlie says: read what are the people we also know that everyone else doesn't know, and he said more is long and really goes well. I know it more laws niggers
charlie- you don't understand, word designing, for acceleration. Now that changed me number years and so more is law. Only swallow when you, you don't think about so imagine wherein meanings right now we're people time about technology in the vehicle ago. Jim can afford it's too expensive. People won't pay for it. Why Oh from my friend David Kelly that Steve Jobs would say. I wanted in now because I know the price is gonna, be one tenth very quickly, so he forces designed to adopt the next generation and intercourse in apples case, they made money right away in Ford's gotta find a way to make money faster on on that kind of theory. So parallel you're, not just trying to make the product adaptive you're thinking about the business models gonna be under attack because the economic principle have totally changed over that time. So what you're too driving now are the real economics, but at
to your challenge running a company like Ford, is stock market psychology, is a whole other realm. It's based on economics to some degree, but then market. You know the market has its own ideas. So I've read then tell me if I'm wrong, I've read that one thing that lead to mark fields is firing from Ford was when Tesla which makes many many many many fewer cars button for does a beat in market cap I never was in a discussion war that was silent, but let me just So I know about myself in this regard that there's a fair amount of stress around as Jim Hacking get that the markets gotta be reward. For these great ideas- and I too, really do, because I did it once before. First of all and the question is: is the design of the business such that you're theirs
since factor here and you get rewarded. Celeste talk about Amazon's profitability in its history I mean took awhile took awhile. Let's talk about apples if you look at Apple stock price when Steve came back a long time yet and what what they want, which those two guys gave, which I know I've got to- is believable momentum. You know they could oh, the compounding of the number of customers they could show the case of ad on revenue. They can show the key Ease of use, as you know, been delighted with products. There also do because their products were new, though I'm cool is whether they get a novelty premium that you don't get the fair? I ain't happen with the ten out of the yacht has got emotive. Compare we should say at as we speak for market cap, for motor market cap is about thirty seven billion dollars and teslas market caps about fifty three billion dollars, which I'm guessing
Cecile afford whether you're gonna say at earth or not, is a little fresh rating. Perhaps we make a new vehicle every four seconds there is another, so and so you get to observe in there this model there trying to get. You know twenty thousand, of more whenever the number was built in a quarter or something. But if you are doing the business case, let's say your teaching Harvard Business School right now and in the end, the case that you want to Buddy is Ford Motor Company versus Tesla for the moment, and we know what for does what they represent, how they make them and we know what does the does allow and we try to projected in future and see what the start price is really all about make the best case that Ford is is undervalued. and I really believe this units, this too, is a ceo speculate on start price, I can say, is I'm really optimistic about?
the p ease understates thrill value. First of all, we on an industrial peeve, six or seven, something like that. A p ease companies price to earnings ratio, key metric used by investors to assess how Companies share price relates to its true value, and I asked Jenny, Wren Eddie today. What theirs was it IBM and I think she said eleven or twelve and we discussing Microsoft? Probably in the twenties right now, these three companies- all of them? are actually dealing with bits in cloud structures and data right, but one the twenties, the other ones in the sixes. So the case I would make is that we have as much data in the future coming from vehicles or from users in those vehicles or from cities talking to those vehicles as the other editors that you and I would be talking about that hammer,
noticeable attraction now they talked a lot of investors and they go got it boom thumbs up go for it. Can you just proved to us that you ve got that working and what you and I just agreed when we saw some the early tech start ups, they they could go to market with investors only seen a fraction of what they were gonna become in that cause? Belief, I do think that's a mean whom I speaking to right. I think that's unfair for industrial companies at a hundred fifteen years old we have not a talented people. We can generate returns on that invested capital and so I believe is we have a hundred million people in vehicles today there are seeing Ford blue oval vehicles. That's the case for monetizing up tuna versus an upstart, who may be. Has I don't know where they are? Two hundred and twenty eight,
thousand vehicles in place now and- and so just compare that stacks, which one would you like to have the data from. I hear you entirely, but I also think well who are the companies that have been good at on a typing customer data and and we can name em, there's facebook, there's, Google etc and have they already stirred her own that market. So what makes you think that Ford can monetize that in it in any significant way enough to invest In developing that whole scenario, it's well is, first of all We already know as a proxy that those really wonderful firms you talk about like Facebook, where a great customer facebook they love a school loves us. You know cause for a big advertiser, so we talk to these folks all the time, but they do
on the health care data market. They are not controlling aviation data today you know they may be doing flight reservations. That I mean we can find proxies where there's data and they don't own it. Now, let's let that just be an hour and it says, they're not everywhere there very powerful, the issue in the vehicle c, is we already know and have data on our customers by the way we protect us securely. They trust us. We know what people make now. How do we know? That is because they borrow money from and when you ask somebody what they make, we know where they work. You know we know if they're married We know how long they lived in their house because these are on the credit applications we never ever been challenged. on how we use that that's the leverage we got here with the data. So the question I have is whether Ford necessary curly hair,
not only a big role in that, but a big opportunity to monetize. So at this, yes, presentation, you rolled out a couple components of the living street, one is called the transportation mobility cloud. Our transportation, mobility, clad or tea and sea will support the rapid, movement of services and applications that will enable people to move Efficiently have access to smart connected transportation, another was called CV two x see that acts or cellular vehicle to everything. Technology has the potential to people are cities, various components and applications to share information with each other from vehicle to pedestrians and bicyclists to the whole infrastructure. Enabling collision avoidance safety systems traffic no prioritization and much more and when the examples that your team gave was on the seabed ex component
They described a scenario in which a vehicle without requiring a network can communicate when a driver needs help. Maybe he has I abilities and is going into shock, etc. Cv two x, coordinate the response. The system can recognize the drivers, distress, send a signal to emergency, responders, etc, etc. Echo can even send medical records for drivers who have opted for them. So when I read that I think why is this wonderful sounding but very complicated to me sounding solution having the vehicle diagnose Some medical emergency, for instance, rather than say a word, herbal medical device, which I'm I mean my smart watch is that now and I saw a variety of examples of that. In your vision, whereby it seems like Ford is describing itself as a major, player. In this re, imagining of the public square, the public space. I don't understand what
you bring to it. That makes you think that you can be a big player in that space, beyond the transportation component, you mention the diabetic thing. I'll, give you a real one. That's working right now the LOS Angeles police Department drives Ford, explores we of high market share of police vehicles, then application. That is one of our tasks. They have this terrible sad story wherein officers on emission cuts in Iraq, Airbag Knox him out, so so he dies, they can't find. because a radio on him I don't know why they Didn'T- have gps or something like that position- what we ve invented with them. Is that every time there It goes off. It's it's communicating its location, and now the team sitting inside LAPD right now, working on a dozen other, I Yes, that we get them monetize for
because of the data there willing to share that helps, build a risk on system for them. Ok, so that's it very use like a person in their vehicle to cloud the promise of the diabetic is in India. This is really extreme. You can't get an ambulance enow into somebody. That's in trouble the traffic to congested the theory here is the vehicles give priority to that so They'll know where to go so you have you been in an environment where the sirens on you go. Do I go right or left. The command will be the way air traffic. Is it just tell a plane if it's on a collision course? You know this thing is go up or down. They don't tell him to turn right or left Arkham a we'll tell you, go right or left in everybody's move in the same way, and it knows what the oncoming traffic's doing gotcha, but this
the simple transactions are Ford's, reducing the friction in somebody's life has Jim hack. It been persuading you that Ford Motor Company is really on the upswing after the break will hear more, including why Ford doesn't call a ton of Miss vehicles autonomous and what was behind for its decision stop making cars. So the sedan you be sure did how the sales of drop off globally for everybody- and if you are your earlier episodes from our secret life, CEO Series, economics, dot, com or sticker copyright.
Fr Economics, radio sponsored by Petsmart Petsmart makes it safe and easy for you to care for your pet at Petsmart, the health and safety of employees, pet parents and pets are its most important, which is why they require face coverings. Social distancing, and stop plexiglas shields and enhanced cleaning to follow CDC recommendations for contact with him. Thing just order online at Petsmart, not com or on the Petsmart app joy, easy curbside, pick up for same day, delivery powered by door dash free through January thirty. First, two thousand twenty one check out: Petsmart dot com for more details. just a decade ago, Ford Motor company was the most stable of the big three? U S, automakers General Motors and Chrysler both declared bankruptcy during the financial crisis and received government bail out for didn't. Although
under then CEO Alan Malalai did accept some federal assistance from both financial and business perspective. Word seem to be in relatively good shape, but that's no longer the case. Despite a strong economy and stock market Ford has been struggling even more than the other. U S, automakers, as evidenced by its battered share price, for it is still the king of pickup truck sales, but Moody's, investors service in a recent downgrade afford cited, erosion in the company's global business position and the challenges it will face. Implementing witness redesign programme fitness redesign is Ford's way of saying it's downsizing and restructuring of fate. That Whistler and GM had forced upon them during their bankruptcies but which Ford, paradoxically, was able to avoid until now, one big part of forgery
Structuring has been Jim Hack, its recent decision to phase out nearly all foreign Sudan's, currently on sale in North America, for it is decided to get out of the car game, except for its iconic Mustang Ford, such that a focus on suvs and trucks, so the Sudan as a platform you you would be shocked at how the sales have dropped off globally. For everybody, it's worth noting that just a couple of decades affords tourists was the best selling car in America, but consumer chances of changed. The price of gases relatively low, Maybe something of an arms race among consumers who feel the suvs and trucks are safer especially when you're on the road with so many other suvs trucks. I well would definitely I know with women buyers, they prefer the height. They just see better It's a function of seeing where you're driving and and the cars relative position, but the other
thing is in the past, you would have to hedge of fuel prices went up, and the vehicles have done so fuel efficient, F, F, one, fifty we give our Malawi alot of credit for this- he aluminized the body or a very controversial at the time of the time it was. It was when the large,
Transcript generated on 2021-01-20.