« Freakonomics Radio

381. Long-Term Thinking in a Start-Up Town

2019-06-13 | 🔗

Recorded live in San Francisco. Guests include the keeper of a 10,000-year clock, the co-founder of Lyft, a pioneer in male birth control, a specialist in water security, and a psychology professor who is also a puppy. With co-host Angela Duckworth, fact-checker Mike Maughan, and the Freakonomics Radio Orchestra.

This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Fr Economics, radio sponsored by progressive insurance were customers save an average of more than seven hundred fifty dollars when they switch and save visit, progressive dot com to get your car insurance quote. It only takes about seven, national annual average auto insurance savings by new customers surveyed in twenty nineteen potential savings will very, if you'd like to listen to for economics, radio without ads the place to do that is sticker premium five dollars and you can get a free month trial by going to stick your premium dot com and use a promo code freak. You also get access to all our bonus. Episodes and you'll be supporting our show to that sticker premium: dot, com, promo code, freak thanks, their progress listeners, this week's episode is a variety show recorded in front of alive audience. Our guests include the President in CO, founder of
huge ride share company that recently went public and which isn't named goober? We also hear from futurists ideologists microbiologist and second, but just with a very interesting psychic, it begins right now
Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome the hosts decree economics. Radio Stephen Governor this year come a view from San Francisco with live music by Luis Gara in the freedoms, radio, orchestra and as co host. Would you please welcome the universe? You Pennsylvania, psychology, professor and the author? grit. Angela duckworth- and I understand that you before you were super gritty taught mass here in Sympathy- goes out to that is the correct statement. Taught at lower high school Lumping that's interesting about math is that unbeknownst to most students, actually girls get higher report,
our grades in math and boys on average. It's really us. breaking advantage, and yet Boys are dramatically more confidence than girls in that subject. Good to know will see if we can extend that stereotyped tonight. So Angela for these live recordings, we summit play a game called- tell me something- I don't know where we bring onstage a series of guests from various disciplines. We ask them to tell us about their work, you and I ask some questions and ultimately our live audience will vote for their favorite guess. Maybe it suddenly like to hear more from in a future episode the voting. Criteria are very simple number one: did they tell us something we really did not know. Number two: was it worth knowing and number three was demonstrably true and help with that demonstrably true part we ve hired a real time fact checker. He is the head of global insights, Qual tricks and he's co, founder of five for the fight the campaign to eradicate cancer.
Please welcome make Maun might do you have insurance is no connections as well. So I do. I grew up in you which is where Steve Young went to college. So singly. A lot of us were forty Niners fans when we were young and when we were memorizing our times tables, as we got two like seven times Evan instead of saying forty, nine ever gonna be forty Niners. We got two seven times. Six would say Jerry Rice, because he was forty. Two wasn't areas number eighty year, so to hearken Angela's thing about men having misplaced confidence in their math abilities? really sure he was number forty, two big fans out there, big big vance. Alright, let's get started our first guess tonight. Would you please welcome John Zimmer
John I am sure that for those people who don't recognize your name, they will certainly recognise your job titles. Would you please tell us what to do and the co founder and president of left leave me the origin story of lived, which was a region we, I know called zoom ride in. I assumed you obnoxious, we named after yourself. That's not true is that's not true. I ve been trying to correct the record for awhile. Logan Green, my cofounder was born in surrounded by traffic and he hated that and he started building solution from self. He took a bus. He built a car sharing program like Zipcar before Zipcar would come to college campuses and you get the attention of local. Try the board so yet elected as the youngest member ever to the Transit Board in Santa Barbara County,
He was only person on the board that actually wrote the bus. He then went to Zimbabwe and some people, rise out of necessity and got the idea to credit carpooling network called Zimrud, so Zimrud was named after Zimbabwe, Sir John you're firm, lift went public. in late March, at share price of seventy two dollars which represented at the time a company valuation of about twenty four billion dollars. Lift shares have since fallen to below sixty dollars, which represents a decline More than seven billion dollars to John. We are just a humble podcast and public radio show. But would you like us to buy you some dinner after the show of egg? It are you ok, I'm there are Ober your larger rival as experienced similar drop in market cap since it had its IP several weeks after years, so the central objection of investors seems to be that both companies are still
losing for now lots of money and that investors don't necessarily see a clear way to change. That's how do you become profitable long run, so we we like been underdogs, we were like when people don't necessarily. But we see that's how we got our start and so that the path is quite simple. There's there's two main pieces: one is rights are profitable in Mostar. it's an officer of the cover overhead and the more rights that we do. The more that it covers that I, which doesn't scale with the growth and secondly, pariah kind of variable costs things like insurance are. bring down and will continue to come down, and we have a very clear path to profitability with three point: five billion dollars in the bank and We intend to invest that well to get a good return for investors, so assuming things do go as Expected- and you are one day, not the underdog. What's your strategy for meaning is that is that really part of the lift identity diving
locked into that. Our mission is to improve people's lives with the world's best transportation cities, and for we have been designed or on car infrastructure and car? are used four percent of the time, which means there parked the rest of the time and a man Can families are spending nine thousand dollars every year owning? operating a car Americans spend more many on the car that they use for five percent of the time than they do on food and to ask that doesn't make any sense at the same time, there's job opportunities being created by giving other people rights, and we think that we are, on day, one of a very long journey in redesigning it is around people. So I want to talk to you about autonomous vehicles. Its fascinating on a number of levels, safety, etc, etc. And I guess from Europe respect if there is the issue of labour, because I assume that your biggest prostrate now is labour drivers correct or so
You ve, been hearing about autonomous travel for a while now and we ve seen em being tested pretty successfully for a long time now and indifferent settings Why is it taking so much longer than like five years ago? The optimists in future promising what are the biggest barriers right now, so mostly its technology and then cost, and so from technology perspective. We think differently than a car manufacturers are car manufacturer thinks about. When can I design and autonomous vehicles that can do every trip type? A hundred percent That trip for us, we think about when can we do an autonomous vehicle trips safely for a hundred per cent of one trip type, and if that trip type is a fixed her out, a similar to a transit route, and we can do that safely and at the right cost, then we'll start building that way, rather than trying to do it all at once? Is that similar to what lift is doing now in Vegas? Yes, so you can get in there. car today in Vegas, there is a safety driver, and
There are various points slightly over ten different locations that you can either get picked up or dropped off. so the routes are more known. Then, if it's just a random destination, so what impact will lift have on culture? But It was part of the American. The rude about american dream. Was freedom right. So whenever you see an auto add they show in a car. You have long hair blowing in the wind, maybe and converted? and it's amazing there's no traffic not real and so Ben this his dream of of cars and freedom that was promised to us by the car. instead of a nine thousand dollar ball and chain which the car has become, you can get that actual freedom. Do you own a car? I do. I am alive driver on occasion seriously you sound of those sheepish, the fact that you own a car, yeah you're you're, conflicted dear fellow guilty about her
how often do you act as a lift driver at least once a year I have a tradition. Every there's been a lot going on. So let me ask you this lift and Google. Are one of the most famous do ah police in America. Right Oh, you know right up there with Coke and Pepsi in the Republicans and the Democrats in and and historically do please go in one of two directions: are either compete to death on prices or they tacitly collude, and I'm really curious How you see the two firms playing out? Do you? Think there is room for both. Does one inevitably eat or killed the other, etc, etc. Doubt it so there's room for both and it's a good thing: competition to treat drivers well competitions. Passengers. Well, that's good and an that's happened. That's played out, but there is a peer. of time, where I worked up about five years ago,
Brad raise three billion dollars and we had a lot of money, a hundred million dollars, but they had thirty times. They happen and they pointed at us and tried to kill us we, talk to our mission, taking care of our drivers and passengers, and we ve been able to thrive, build enough density in our cities to offer a similar eighty eight, which was the critical part and then to try Both drivers and passengers better so that you get better customer service. You used to have this pink fuzzy. Mustache is the lift thing, and you don't anymore and makes me sad- and I want to know why sorry, but I'm glad to hear you light it and we wanted to get people to smile honestly. That was the idea we were. creating a new way for people to get around in a historically parents told you never get in the car with stranger. Never take candy from a stranger, so bitter driver background checks. We did you know criminal record checks by
It wasn't normal to get into someone else's car and so by putting the pink mustache on the front, it made it a lift major notice it and created an incredible word of mouth buzz where people would say what the heck is that and now I've seen three of them today and that people how to talk about it. Why did you do Then this brilliant marketing move when we do there was a girl launch idea about it we are buying tens of thousands and potentially hundreds of thousands of large pink fairy moustaches. It was like a bit ridiculous. and we were operating in markets a had rain and snow in and they did not do so well researching different types of materials. That would be weatherproof, but it got absurd My man, John Zimmer, tells us about lift and its autonomous. you turned our autonomy future anything. You heard that caught your fact checkers ear. Ok, so I've been so
Jeanne car commercials and you're right. I can't find any that show people and traffic jams, and there are a remarkable number of people in them. We have long hair so well played on all counts. Interesting lay in three of the first pictures of male drivers in car commercials on Google image church. They have moustaches, so. It is. It is creepy, but I'm curious with different autonomous lift vehicles have different personality traits, just like different lift drivers, for example. Could I get an autonomous pick, truck that plays country music, while maybe another is a hatch back that always has and pr on just a little too quietly for you to actually here John Zimmer from live. Thank you so much you're doin here tonight. Next guest is the former senior water scientist, the NASA jet Propulsion LAB Caltech. He now runs
global institute for water security at the University of Scotch one. Would you please welcome J family Eddie? So J water against is fairly important to humanity. They tell us something we, no about Europe, declare area of expertise, water security, police, wealth, Stephen most of the world's accessible unfrozen freshwater. In fact about ninety six percent of it is actually invisible stored beneath the surface is groundwater that water that we see flow rivers and lakes and start and reservoirs that makes up only about four percent of accessible freshwater over the past couple of decades. I've let a team of researchers that use although satellite data to map our groundwater, Sturgis changing something that was impossible before and yet, as per amount to understanding our global water future. This is really
Let us make something that was previously invisible visible. Does your satellite project have a name it does? It was called grace and grace stands for gravity, recovery and climate experiment. It's quite novel in the sense that, functions like a scale. It actually ways the different regions of the world that are, gaining or losing water mass on a monthly basis. Ok, so what did you learn when you are able, for the first time to measure groundwater around the world? Well, we learned Fortunately, that most of the world's major aquifers are being depleted at a pretty rapid clip effect over half or else major aquifers are our past sustainability taping points and there being quite rapidly drained so from behavioral science perspective, the things that p can't see em, and you can tell them ninety six percent of the world's waters, not visible and being depleted
really hard for human beings to appreciate things that are not. You know in front of them. How are you communicating that broadly It certainly a challenge: that's part of the room why groundwater hasn't been well managed through the years, because we don't see it so we ve been able to produce maps that show how these archives there being depleted, we ve been able to produce, animations and we use you know those basic traffic signal colors. You know we go from green to yellow to read. That really works with people really resonates, so that may work with people and resonate maybe for some behavioral stuff, especially individual level. But what has your evidence of depletion done on policy level? Well, we have come. We did to the passage of this sustainable groundwater Management ACT in California. In twenty fourteen now California, has led to the game, though, for state why? In water management? Yes, yes, sadly, so so calibre
there's the last state in the United States to adopt groundwater management, it's tough to give up something that you ve had free access. do for a long time in California, is a big agricultural state and, and we grow out of food, and it takes a lot. Water, so he was much needed because without any kind of groundwater management, we would run out of groundwater. So can we just back up and get some basic earths sign because I want to make sure that a I remember what I learned and b that what we learned was actually right, because if I understand what you're saying: they're kind of two classes of water: there's, groundwater aquifers, you're, calling it and then there's surface water rate, and most of it is. the ground rape, and we were not able to know how much there was in different places until you put your satellite up their correct right of all right so far, but
one thing, we learned in her sciences that well the earth water supply is replenishable and there's a finite amount. What you lose via evaporation, you get return in precipitation, that's what happens for surface water. I gather but groundwater aquifer different? story, not replenished, so I think you're, features taught you well so what you about really refers to the globe and so we're not losing any water we're not gaining any water. So we have amassed balance but interpretation a region like safe in the central Valley, not far from where we are right. Now we pump alot water to grow food, a lotta that water evaporates a lot of that water runs off a lot of ends up embedded in food, and it does not necessarily come back to the opera for we not destroy the water just ends up someplace different where's, the girl I don't know I haven't- figured it out her affair. In truth is when we look at the global maps that we produce. We see that
northern high latitudes, Boreal North America and in Eurasia and the tropics are getting better and it's the Middle EAST. That are getting drier, so there's a distribution from the middle ages, It's the high and low merits it and also from the land to the ocean. Is it like? You know you guys grow say a bunch guinea here and then it gets ship to Philadelphia were annual. Isn't she eats zucchini and ends up being out there? utter there. Is that really what's happened exactly what's happening, you're eating our groundwater? So the solution is to ban zucchini plainly, so we ve been Bring for years that the next wars will be thought not overland, not over oil or diamonds, but over water. So when does that happen and where so its action happening in different ways around the world? A lot of the hot spots for insecurity or trans boundary, they straddle political boundaries, and so the Middle EAST, of course, the real tinder box and theirs,
what are insecurity, problems on the India Pakistan Border in Bangladesh and in South America there's a huge or further cobbler horny aquifer that that's hence the boundaries of Chile in Paraguay and Argentina, and so their small skirmishes, We don't hear about and there's bigger ones that I think will be happening in the future. So what can individual consumers due to reduce the depletion, dietary changes are huge by moving from less meat to more plant based would save a tremendous amount of water. That means that means more as a guinea. By the way, maybe the most important We can do is really razor expectations of our elected officials? and demand that they discuss their water.
What is there, but I beg you to name a cup of countries that manage their water well and I'm really curious to know when a country manages its water well, how much of that management involves pricing? Water? Well, because I've been too all that America, one thing we ve we ve done not very well particular Californians price water as the market. Would praise it Israel desert? Does it a job managing its water monitoring, its water? They ve been pioneers of agriculture. efficiency with drip, irrigation and crop reading in December, yeah and desalination and sewage recycling, I'm actually sure about the pricing, but that's a different thing right when the state on the water? You have a lot more control. Australia is doing a great job of policy innovations, and so there really massive about allocations for water for the remained word to grow food, water for economic growth and so on, closer to home,
This groundwater problem is huge and the other big aquifer in the United States is the high planes are the Oglala for which stretches from north to south across the middle part of the country and Kansas has turned out to be quite progressive in its merit, of groundwater. They ve been able to define the carefully what it means to be sustainable and they ve worked to integrate see in research and education and even farm extension to get their innovations into practice, but what we like in the water worlds. It there's no silver bullet. It's gonna take a portfolio approach. It water markets in trading and sewage I going and desalination and conservation, and we have a wonderful tat What our system here in the United States and we seem to have forgotten it make me on J family Eddie, who worked on an amazing sounding satellite project that measured global groundwater, does does any of this check out. Ok, so much much
the other thing you're saying can be corroborated saudi array. if they over use their aquifers. That used to be the six largest producer of wheat, and the Then they went from that's not producing any man twenty sixteen, because they fully depleted their aquifers and because of the aquifers situation where depleting them so quickly that parts of California Our are literally sinking. There are a few major trouble spots near me said and Bakersfield that continue to think as much as two feet per year because of aquifer depletion. The question is: what are they Thinking about Jane you one more question before we. Let you now. You obviously know a great deal about the overall water situation, costs and benefits, and so on. I feel you didn't. we, the doom and gloom scenario, sick, and you just tell us on a scale of one to ten weird.
They lie in addressing this problem generally. We are completely. Utterly spread. I wouldn't with that. If I were you I enjoyed talking to you a lot up till now, Dave family. Any! Thank you so much for coming to you. Please welcome our next guess. She is a medical microbiologists works out of a lab at the University of California Berkeley and she is the co founder of a firm called your choice. Therapeutics, please wealth, Nada mandates. naughty I understand your specialty is the physiology of mammalian fertilisation, which is the unsexed description,
sex I have ever heard so tell us. We don't know please and developing. The first none hormonal contraceptive for men, So, first of all, I am very curious whether the applause is for the non hormonal or for the men. Yes, so explain why none hormonal is significant. First of all, so I think many women in the audience know this. I've been using hormone based birth control options such as the pill hormones you take them repeatedly. They screw up your whole bodily functions so women have been dealing with side effects that come with hormonal contraceptives for the past, sixty seventy years and all the attend so
that have been made to develop a male contraceptive also have been hormone based, just think about body builders. They might start taking additional testosterone just to build up more muscles, but then they are testes would shrink. So balls get smaller. Yet we know it testes our here. Thank you very much by anyway. Why is that? It's kind of you know opposite direction Geller spend more time on this, and now I'm curious. So format. The genesis of the production of sperm cells is driven by testosterone, testosterone levels. They need to certain range it's not enough or too much testosterone, then sperm utter Genesis is stopped once there are less sperm cells within testes, there's just left cellular mass and so the whole
little organ or not so little to shrink yeah. What is the evidence that men are particularly interested in birth control So whenever we talk the young men. They just gets super excited there like this is awesome, I want to take responsibility and birth control because my girlfriend my wife, my partner, she just can't take hormonal contraceptives interest. It's the right thing to do One reason why you may have that curiosity is the evolutionary pressure to propagate right, so I think you might be wondering what market appetite there would be for not passing on your genes to the next duration, when we ve been evolving to do exactly that, I dont believe you. But how do you reconcile you know the evolutionary drive to propagate with
oh, the contemporary desire to not have a million children just because you are using a contraceptive does not mean you will never spread your genes. You have a tool to timing. in a much better way. What is the best word for what you work on? Is it an invention? Is a nap location bullets, its medicine. We are pharmaceutists, look at any yes, so first tell us how it works. chemically scientifically. What are you actually doing to make it work? Ok, imagine you are a sperm cell and got it and you want to fertilize the egg. That's Wade miles away from you not miles. Let's it's ten inches and Wet
and what you see here, the tiniest so and you have to travel a certain distance. You need energy too, Fred Love and the genes What we do we prevent sperm cells from producing enough energy. We also prevent them from developing a emotivity pattern that sperm cells needs to push through the protective layers that surround the egg, so this firm swim there where they're going. And then they need to penetrate yes and are those two different kind of mortality mode. Yes, that switch from one thousand one to two: isn't it aided by progesterone, so we identifying small molecules that prevent progesterone from binding till the sperm till, so
sperm, we'll never get into that crazy, materially mode and they just keep swim they have no idea that they are so close and so far and just to clarify its the females, progesterone? Ok, So why does this happen? When does this medicine come to market? Let's say it's more than a decade. Long process, because we need to get empty, approval, so our first product is actually a female contraceptive. That is virtually a minute It's also none hormonal and you could also say as the first female on demand contraceptive, doesn't matter where we go after sperm cells. We would do it in a man's body are a woman's body. I mean these are the two places where sperm cells usually are I am really curious about whether this discovery has any implications for infertility. If you ve learned
slow down sperm or make them weaker. Can you speed them up or make them stronger for people who are trying to have kids in camp excellent point? And the answer is yes, so if this were the first version of non hormonal male birth control? How would the medicine be administered? How often, how long would at last- and I guess we'll I say hello, molasses, how reversible is it too so we know from literature, research that is fairly or quickly reversible, but should we would need to do first in human testing to get a very correct answer to that, how regularly would men have to take it? We would think, perhaps daily or every other because men they keep producing sperm cells, twenty four seven
You know, I wonder about getting a guide to do anything every day. Is that possible ever considered this issue? The behavioral science challenges? I think if we compare a collar, kids with a forty five year old, married husband. Then I think we are talking about opposite people, but but we would love to create a culture where fathers woods. I don't wanna talk about their sons, about a method of,
control rather than daughters, just explicitly talking to them. On my mind, not your man of its has been telling us about a fascinating discovery and a series of events that led to contraception for men and its non hormonal. Tell us what you found a few things you ve talked a little bit about sperm swim, strokes, researchers, it you see, I found that there are four different ways: the sperm swim in addition to the two that you talked about, one which is most common, is this head forward dashed for the egg? Forty five percent of sperm swimming curve tracks like moving along slinky, smaller, percentages swim, Willy nilly, we all know
the people they got born from one of those in on me. I think the worry that some have is that evolutionary biology is so powerful that this sperm may figure out how to break through this and adapt and answer for example- I don't know if you ve seen this amazing movie Jurassic Park. But we worry that that we know how this ends in everyone's gonna get pregnant anyway, thank you might and not a man of its. Thank you so much for joining us. It is time now for a quick break. If you'd like to attend a future taping of economics, radio live or be a guest on the shelf. Please visit for economics that calm slash life would be right back.
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transfer money anytime anywhere making capital one and even easier decision. That's banking re imagine, what's in your wallet terms, apply cap but one and a member of the icy welcome, two for economics, radio alive, even though there may my Duckworth our life fact checker is make moment and we ve got like music tonight from the we scared and the freak economics, radio, org draft Would you please welcome our next guess? He is executive director of the Long now foundation. Alexander rose.
under welcome. Let's start with a simple question: what is the long now foundation and what are your goals foundation was started a little over twenty years ago by mostly text let us here in the Bay area, who at the time, were kind of realizing that technological pace. Really driving most decisions, rather than the amount of time actually need to solve problems and so The notion was to get people to think about the long term and to identify project. There are worth doing over that time spent and computer science Danny Hillis had been bring some of the fastest supercomputers in the world out of my tea, he thought well what about the slowest computer in the world and his thought was ten thousand year, all mechanical meant size clock as a kind of icon to long term thinking, and that's what you're actually
he beginning to build or building yes in Western Texas. Yet most of the machinery is actually built here on the West Coast and very close to hear in the barriers where we do all the assembly and testing and then get shipped out to West Texas in It's meant to last ten thousand years, correct the clock and keep working for ten thousand years and is: it meant to be primarily a symbol. Then of long termism or is it meant to start a conversation about what time means, etc, etc. The idea is to challenge your thoughts about time, and you know there's a lot of ways you can do that we can have a white paper that talks about this, but what we trying to do is create something on a mythic scale, that's kind of like the Grand Canyon, but for time and of large art peace, in the desert? That's a monument to long term thinking. Some psychologists think that the ability to prospect into the future too create mental simulations movies in your head about what could happen. If I do this, but what would happen if I instead did that that that is
see what makes us uniquely human and that no other animal on the planet does a quite as much as we do quite as far into the future. How have you wrestled with this so, in a really were working in the place of methane storytelling. What you do is you open up options for the next generation entrust the next generation most system. Place right now are are becoming less trustful of that future and, by definition, ex generation always going to have more information. They're gonna have vastly better ways of making a decision about their present than we about our future, so it's odd that we dont trust them to do and you look at something like the bill of rights, which is this very short document of principles. That's one and a half since each, and all of that was meant that each generation would interpret it into the future where you look at a modern law like the healthcare. Well, let's say twelve hundred pages goal? Of that whole thing was to make sure nobody would ever interpret it in a different way, future than we were in the present, and I think those are the kind of
takes that we make, and we want to call out, as if you, making decisions that reduce the decision, in power of the future. You're probably doing wrong when I asked you a question based on what you just said, I dont know if it's a challenge or a corroboration of what you just said, honestly as something it through, but on the surface, it seems like a great idea, courage, long term thinking, re Prima facie Yes, I'm especially for problem solving, but, as history shows most predictions about the future generally turn out to be wrong. in part, because technologies come along that we couldn't have anticipated. So you know, I think, about food production where the smart money, fifty eighty two hundred years ago was always saying: if the global population reaches another billion, there's no way we can grow enough food for everyone, and yet we continue to surpass it so I do wonder about the potential downsides of a certain kind of long term. Thinking in that solutions that might seem sensible today may in fact be useful,
in the future, depending on what now these emerge that we can anticipate long term. Thinking can be organised? I think the worst historical example of this is the thousand Iraq and I think we're even seeing some of the ways that policy is being done around These bodies right now is around here. rights away from a future generation, and that's you're not trusting that future. So it's it's less about trying to plan for the future. It is to trust the people in the future are actually going to do a better job than you are. understand. The long now foundation is based in a bar and that's become one of the top first date bars incense just go and attended eight hundred eight hundred eight all the way down the bar talk about the opposite of long term an hour. We Richard have some kids coming here
andor. I know you're not gonna, be around ten thousand years. Unless you know something that I really dont know, but do you think that lift will be profitable by then I took out lived here, so that's it gets out the endurance. Thank you so much. It is time for our final guess tonight. Would you please welcome Philip hammock? it's As here you are a professor of psychology at the University of California, Santa Cruz. You are also the director of the sexual and gender diversity lab there. You see Santa Cruz Correct, and I also undressed and that you are the founder of Fog City pack, which is a fan of gay men who identify as puppies this is correct and honestly I didn't
this evening to get any more interesting, but it did- and I mean they knew it would have been enough without this. But I'd love to know. First of all, what's your pup name and where's. It come from my name. pop turbo. I was named turbo by the man and I was in a relationship with and which we engaged in practice called puppy play. What is puppy play so, they play involves: human beings taking on the traits and mannerisms of puppies, and we. Do it as a way to express affection with each other and to role play within our relationship? Is it always private is sometimes public it can be either. Actually the public version actually involves large groups of people, usually gay men, and we get into the head space of being a puppy by putting on particular gear. For example, we have muzzles and we have other types of gear. We have tales I've a tale actually that wags is Q, and we get on all fours and we can do
What you would see dogs doing in the park, your playing, with two toys are playing fetch. There are people in the community that play as dog owners are what we call handlers or trainers. So is puppy play a subset. category of media, some, yes, it emerged from the larger media, some community- that is correct- and it turns out that if your new to king, the puppy play community is a great way to start because The very nurturing way of doing VS on what is kinky. Can I thought you just did just then, and I can answer king we should clarify, is- is really about play its it's about role. Play is about play with power and roll dynamic in that regard? If you think about the relationship between a dog owner and their puppy, it's one sweetness of carrying of love and so on scale of obedience,
some style relationships. It's a really soft way of doing bs am and does relate your academic work. Absolutely so puppy play is just very small part. I think of this much larger umbrella of intimate diversity that happening in the twenty first century. And truly I've come to believe it's actually a revolution and how we think about sexuality and how we think about gender and relationship. what would you say have been some of the most noteworthy changes lately regarding sexual identity in the? U S overall, especially younger people, so my research actually is focused on energy, be to use or high school age youth, and we, to look at what the experience of algae BT teens is like in different kinds of settings. So we're here the Bay area working with teenagers here, as well as in the central bank, that was really interested in what that different experience might be like in those setting,
and I was totally blown away by the fact that it was very similar across these settings. Even though the settings themselves are very distinctive and central Valley is history. Berkeley, more hostile towards sexual and gender diversity, whereas the Bay area has historically much more supportive and so Oh, I just kind of figured. We would see you now patterns that kind of matched I live, and instead, What we saw was this incredible explosion of new vocabulary: around sexuality engender among majors wanted Activities that I have the students do is on the first day of class before they have even seen the seller. just name out any sexual identity is, you can think of. I would put them on the board when I first started. Shooting the class and like twenty ten, it was everything you will think you now gay lesbian, bisexual, stray that the basics by twenty fifteen. I mean only like five years later sudden I was filling three entire chalkboard with new labels
one section of the chalkboard called the Google section, which were terms I didn't know what they meant when you filled up three chalkboard worth of category was puppy play a part of that it was an I totally blow my mind. You didn't come from you as it did not come from me by the way my favorite on that list was Scipio Sexual, which means attraction to the trade of intelligence. We got a roomful of them tonight, but when I realise is that young people were really using entirely new vocabulary and labels, and so, for example, in that study, I found a twenty four percent the young people I worked with, where identifying is gender Non binary, so neither male or female and said you. One percent were identified with a what we call a plural sexual identity label, which means pants, actual, bisexual queer attraction to multiple genders,
so, and this was among the algae BT community, but that data reels. The change from my generation, where the only option What really very very binary so the nature of categories is that they are qualitatively distinct, if you're in this category you're, not in that category and so on, and if you're filling the red boards now and- and there are more chalk boards in the future. Is it possible that there will not be any category that We want identify with any of these labels at some point, because there is the plurality of them and that the boundaries have been blurred sufficiently wonderful question. I do think what will happen is we will away from this idea of normality or nativity as we sometimes call, and instead what we're going to just embraces just radical diversity and radical authenticity. how people experience their lives and about what I mean by radical authenticity is simply that people are now
able to really embody what they feel on the inside in the way they present themselves externally in the what they want to conduct their relationships in the way they want to be in the world. I mean I tell my students. This is one of the best times to be straight back is that there are shocked because heterosexuality is opening up like never before we're finding that more and more people are identifying, as mostly straight and by the way. This is not just women about ten years ago there was a lot of research on sexual fluidity in dating back that women seem to shift labels with great frequency. The original research didn't. Actually contain a comparative sample, men to the ain't, nobody assumption was historically mankind. It just choose at Camp dire straits straight. That's where they stay. However, really really exciting. New research is showing that men are now as likely to
potentially not only change sexual identity labels, but there are also warm more comfortable with engaging in some kind of same sex contact and that not meeting their gay or necessarily bisexual, they can say, hey I'm hetero flexible. You know, I have a question Philip Morris statement, really so sixty million households in the U s I have a dog is a pet and only forty seven million have a cap. I interpret this as per The dogs are superior to is that true, a little biased aftermath, Philip Amica. Thank you so much for telling us something we definitely did not know, and can we have one more round of applause for all our guests tonight? It is time now for our live audience to tell us who their favorite guest was tonight. Let's remember the criteria. Did they tell
something we truly did not know. Did they tell us something that worth knowing and was demonstrably true, so who's gonna be Zimmer with lift and our autonomous future J yet with invisible water made visible naughty a man of its with a male birth control pill Alexander rose with the view from ten thousand years out or Philip hammock with a new kind of popular,
while our live audiences voting. Let me remind our listening audience that the entire archive of economics, radio can be found in the stature at four. At free economic status of the audience vote is in once again. Thank you so much to all our guests, presenters and our green prize winner tonight for telling us about her maid birth control pill, naughty, unmanageable and sit commemorate this victory? We'd like to present you not here with this certificate of impressive knowledge, it reads eyes Stephen
governor in consultation with Angela Duckworth, and make Maun do here by ETA. the naughty a man of its told us, something that we did not know for which we are so so great. That is our show for tonight. I really hope we told you something you didn't know huge thanks to make and Angela to our guests, to Louise Scare, the frequent comics radio orchestra and thanks especially to all of you for listening this week and every week to free economics, It is a good night coming up next time on for economics, radium, we have described in previous episodes an extraordinarily ambitious project to promote behavior change. We both thought the biggest problem needed solving was figuring out how to make behavior change stick
M team of behavioral scientists is come together to make behavior change. We asked how upset would you be if your relationship ended, we ve interviewed prisoners and went to the dogs, do whenever lifted the lid and got the food how success have they been the hashtag from the day was sciences heart that's next time and for economics, radio, for global trade. It is produced by stature in Dublin productions. This episode produced by Allison Craig Low Morgan Levy, red Ribbon, Harry Huggins, Zack, Levinsky, Cornwallis Denzil, and now he Osborne our staff also includes MAC picky and are in turn, is Daphne chant. Special thanks to Andrea Johnson and to kick you redeem for their partnership on the show, also to the Sydney, Goldstein Theatre, yes, we are all now friends a franc or theme song.
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Transcript generated on 2021-01-19.