« Freakonomics Radio

385. What Do Nancy Pelosi, Taylor Swift, and Serena Williams Have in Common?

2019-07-18 | 🔗

They — along with a great many other high-achieving women — were all once Girl Scouts. So was Sylvia Acevedo. Raised in a poor, immigrant family, she was told that “girls like her” didn’t go to college. But she did, and then became a rocket scientist and tech executive. Now she’s C.E.O. of the very organization she credits with shaping her life. Acevedo tells us how the Girl Scouts are trying to stay relevant, why they’re suing the Boy Scouts, and how they sell so many cookies.

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I've, been speaking with Sylvia S, albedo whose telling me about a rule. She learned man. She was a kid. This rule she says, has been a big force in her life and helped shape her impressive career. It is called the rule of three knows. I ask you to demonstrate with Roleplaying, I'm playing a grumpy old man just answered his doorbell she's playing it'll, be obviously she's playing. So first I would ask we would like to buy some wonderful, delicious girl scout khakis and would say, do I look like I need more happy little girl get our fine words, but now and then you know, buying cookies, you can eat them. For yourself, are you can give them they're? Really very Delicious people at your work your family would really enjoy. Having these could so I would really encourage that tired and my wife died and I have no family. I dont want your cookies, get off my porch little girl right. Will you know, sir? It's him
like you? Don't you would need to my friends and I would but by a box of cookies and take it to your neighbour, and you can we your neighbors and they would really enjoy getting this box of cookies from Sir who exactly is. This clever and determined woman, I'm Sylvia Osity, see a girl scout to the USA, and what exactly is the girl scouts mission? Creating girls confidence in character who make the world a better place, but I'm guessing there's a lot. You dont know about the girl scout, including the fact that cookie sales which Jenny more than seven hundred million dollars a year are an economic necessity dating back to the organisations founder. Yes, because she faced the same dilemma that many girls and women's organisations face, which is girls and women, organizations get less than ten percent of every philanthropic dollar and there's a lot. You no about Sylvia S, a veto to how low
Income routine ex background did not exactly paved the way for future success. She said girls, like you, don't go to college, She became a rocket scientist and then attack executive again swimming against the tide of the eye all this great qualifications and experience well, you're, a woman and the problems, a girl scouts, arguing with today like how to stay relative. In an increasingly digital world and what to do about the boy scouts you can. call females and then a realization girl scout. We are the owners, intellectual property owners, train MIKE owners of the phrase girl scout. It's rare. For the ceo of an organization to have been a member of said organization when they were a child, but that's a case with Sylvia S. Albedo today on for economics, radio girl scout power than now and forever.
I'm happy friends, stature, endemic projections. This is great dynamics, radio broadcasts and explores the inside of everything. Here's your home Stephen Definite, here's a question. What Nancy Pelosi, Elizabeth Warren and Alexandria Cassio Cortez have in common or are there all female members of the United States Congress and they're all Democrats, but because, beyond all three EL secretaries of State, Hillary Clinton, countries, a race and Madeleine Albright. They all have the same thing in common to, but also Taylor, Swift, Megan, Marco, Queen the tv
Melinda, Gates, Venus, answering a Williams and nearly every female astronaut was ever been in space. Yes, all the women were once girls counts, as was Sylvia Meda. So what I want to know is which came first, Sylvia S, veto the smart discipline, self starter or Sylvia S, Oviedo the girl scout, and what I mean by that is you know you This remarkable record of accomplishment and discipline and intellect much of it accomplished with not very much advice, and often active disadvantage. You also, though, joined them Scots when you are young- and you said that that gave you a big boosts, but you where someone who it seems had so much drive that I wonder if you really needed the girl scout wonder which direction the arrow is travelling in. So about Fourteen years ago somebody was doing research at Stanford and they called me, nay said you know you're one of the first, his
and it male or female to have ever got near graduate engineering degree from Stanford and unfortunately you're still one of the few. So they say So how did all those happen? You know where your parents cons, professors, no and so they kept saying will well. How are you prepared with the math and science and the more they kept asking? It did go back to that pivotal girl scout experience. As a veto recently published a book for middle school readers called path to the stars. My journey from girl scout, rocket scientist, I do this book sure and I went across the country, urban and rural suburban areas, and when I was rock, where I saw that as the girls got all so like when they are in the early ages. In elementary school, there Does this exuberance enthusiasm and raising their hands by the time get to middle school. They don't raise their hands and so much so that I started to Institute, a rule that I would only take questions if there
alternating boy girl, boy, girl, we do know, then in classrooms. Boys get calm down more than girls and I think about in our girl only space. I think that's why girls guns tender. over and acts in, so many non traditional feels half of all female. Officials in America. Girls gets so. I think that girl, only environment allows you to try things safely and also, if you dont succeed. The first time not like. Ok, you tried it. You're, not gonna, be good at it. You're no good at computer says get away from it. You get too tried. Try again until you either you like it or you see success in it, and I know that's what happened to me. Ass, a veto is sixty one years old she was born in South Dakota was born in South Dakota. I grew open and lustrous New Mexico. All my grandparents were born in Mexico. My mom is born in Mexico. My dad was born in El Paso taxes and we no the spanish speaking a household we live. Paycheck paycheck sometimes run out of money. We have to live with other family members. You know this
my reality because of we lived, and fortunately there was a health epidemic, meningitis? My sister got really sick and we move because my mother, realising only part of town where people got sick, was in those dirt street neighbourhood that we lived in and we move to another part of town, but I didn't like it. as I had all my friends, everything that I knew there, but at that point in a girl, follow me and pestered Meda come to see. Girl doubts and then I just fell in love with girls counts. The girl scouts were found in nineteen, twelve by George, a woman named Juliet Gordon low she'd, been inspired by the Boyscout bottle low Wanna girls to have the space to learn self reliance in everything, from camping and cooking to citizenship and career training. It was on a girl scout camping trip that Sylvia, NATO first got interested in science. My troop leader saw me just looking at the night sky. She, We understand that they were consolations and there was no planets and I
no idea. I just knew there were twinkly lights, but she remit, for that and later on, encouraged me to earn my science badge and I wasn't successful at first It has been quite a few times for his successful isolated was trying to get her science badge by launching Estes Model rocket. She had a really hard I'm getting off the ground. There was like what is this: they won't let my rocket go and so I learned about this invisible forests gravity that keeps things down in In fact, I'd really did get kind of really inspired is like trying to figure out. How do you break gravities grab? How do you break gravity scrip this
They also beta learned to do again and again she started playing basketball, even though our parents thought that wasn't something a girl should be doing, and she got really good. She started playing music and, of course, chose the drums and again she got really good activate. It was so frustrated after the family car broke down on a trip that she said about learning auto repair, even though she was an old enough to drive Joseph started thinking big about her academic future. When I was in fourth grade my fourth grade teacher, MRS Baldwin showed different pictures of key just across Amerika, and I mean the two hours desert was one of the driest and most or a desert when the pictures MRS Baldwin showed was of Stanford University you see these green burden, hills and limestone buildings with it,
entire roof and I did blurred out. I wanna go there. She would go on to Stanford for graduate school, but first there were some other hurdles like the high school, but counselor. When she walked out- and she looked at me- she said what are you doing here and I said I sign up to go to college Lincoln. She said girls like you, don't go to college and to be fair, statistically, she was probably right, but it means she was right in saying she sad, but by that time that was just my first snow and so I just stood up tinder office and Vienna, followed me and then she said, do you want to study, and I said I want to be an engineer and she laughed at the time percent of undergraduate engineering degrees were earned by women, so I went in and ecstasy diversity and I began an industrial engineer systems engineer and my first job out of college was as a rocket scientist at masses Tafia. I think when a lot of people here a story like that about your counselor.
When you that girls, like you, don't go to out, it's so insulting, and I think that most be when they hear that story. If they put themselves in that position, they would imagine themselves responding with anger, or hurt or resentment- and you sound- and end appeared to be the kind of person who was able to let that kind of thing, roll off you and then get to the next level, keep pushing for your goal. I'm really curious whether you think that ability is your natural characteristic, what You learn that if it was hard to learn and really if you have any advice for people who, when they face I know a failure how to not let the weight of that failure keep them from moving forward. Now, that's a great question and I think that has to do a lot with problem solving their. How do you see the problem and when you think of it that way, you're not just trying to solve the problem for yourself. You're also turned a meat there need in the problem there also trying to solve. I know
in my career. I face this quite a bit though one company that I was working for and I wanted to move from domestic. fails to international sales, and I saw that there were some openings for people who could Spanish and have this technical background and I could not break and it took months, and there was just- always, some excuse wide in a way was in effect, and so I kept trying to fix So you know how do I get this so that they can say no and I love numbers right, so numbers are sort of my superpower, so I did a lot of data analysis and I showed that if their penetrate of some major multinational accounts was the same as my accounts, that region would have hundreds of millions of dollars more entails, and I created this presentation, and so I got that five minutes with that really busy sales VP a flip through the presentation. And he looked at them. He's like MIKE. Ices is really great, and so we were
to grab it any suitable I have my put my hand on innocent and he can, but it comes with me and I thought we got the job considering her early fascination with the night sky and with rockets and with science. Generally, you might be surprised us, albedo, didn't stay at J P, NASA's jet propulsion lab or return there after she got her graduate degree. I asked her why now the thing as when you're working with NASA, especially when you're working with missions that are going to different planets pay day or Christmas. Is when that actual spacecraft is passing that planet and I was able to work right window you're too, was doing his fly by of Jupiter its moons in Europa, and I got to do a lot of data analysis and actually create algorithms around that of all the data that coming back from the telemetry devices, then the other project was solar, polar solar
where we were planning send a spacecraft to the sun. The solar polar project conceived been conceived in the late activate a worked at. BP, EL, in nineteen, seventy nine, but the mission still have a long way to go. The science itself fascinated her and had to think about all these different things that are going to happen, and you know it. The material to handle the radiation and obviously the he the temperature fluctuations, you asteroids hinting at some of the material of ceramics having been created yet. But the timetable of the project was a. and I realized it was going to be not just months. Not just me It could be decades before the next it event happened indeed solar power. later, we named the perker solar probe, was finally launched last year in two thousand eighteen ass, a veto had not been interested in waiting it out, so she got that graduate degree in engineering from Stanford, and then I
everything having around Silicon Valley, and I really liked the pace. I was fortunate to grind from Stanford writing sort of ground zero of the internet explosion over the next few decades activate a worked for Apple Del Autodesk and in her first job IBM When I worked it IBM, we are creating the stated, the aren't storage devices and I brought an innovation lands to it. Instead of just doing but the way everybody did it, I can. It took a step back and I thought what can we do to make this an improved experience? for the workers, as well as improve our manufacturing output. When I did that with a few products and manufacture bring outcomes went up, so the results were so good that I was given this amazing palm assignment to help design their brand new state of the art manufacturing facility, but working at IBM. I noticed that men would have this way of
coaching, each other and networking with each other, and I saw them women that were there, we weren't doing that and unknown was doing that for us. So I to my boss, and I said what will it take to get promoted to get to these other levels, and he looked at me like what What are you thinking of doing that and he couldn't even imagine and I said well, let's just make it a hypothetical. If you were morning to be that, what would you have to do- and you said you'd have to sales, experience product all this experience and it was kind of the ticket and I felt ok I wanted. I want to do that, and so at that point I applied and accepted into the IBM sales programme, and then I just went checking the box and kept working on getting myself into these other types of jobs, product marketing into having profit and loss responsibility as an executive later at Autodesk activate a worked under Carol parts, one of the few female ceo
in TAT well was really different dynamic to have a female, ceo and their work, I think I counted thirty six people that had no revenue possibilities across the organization, and I was the only female, obviously in it, the girl, but the moment I got hired everyone kept saying: gosh do we gonna have to start work. Kurtz now is this link the only can get promoted- and I remember thinking wholly calendars- thirty five review- and there is a hug me in kara- were there our females. Hired overtime and senior positions are yes absolutely she did. You know Carol was really good about making sure that we looked high and low for the right talent and not to sing you ve just look within your networks, really going to different areas. Theirs, search. I don't know if you've heard about it. What's called the Queen Bee Syndrome in which in Buena corporate settings an institutional setting, powerful women tend to be harder on female subordinate
then, on male subordinates and I'm cool to know whether, from your personal experience or observation, if you ve seen that if you believe that search and if so, maybe what to do about it. You know I always heard about that Undoubtedly- and I know that mean myself in my career, I always tried to try others. The way I wanted to be treated. So I always ensure that we created opportunities for others, as I think that girl scout maximum. Always campground better than you found it. When you look at girl scout somewhere only environment. We really trying Make sure that girls learn about collaboration and teamwork. Ethics working well with others, I am curious to know your views on the gender pay gap generally. There is a lot of argument over the degree of the gap, the causes of the gap, the consequences and what should be done about it as we speak the
U S: women's national team soccer plays pursuing their own federation over gender based and pay discrepancy. So what's your position, you know in technology One of the things I would do when I took over department is: I would do that gender analysis and I would find huge disparities and in one case those woman that was being paid, thirty, five thousand noisier and they analyzed her work. She was doing ping men, a hundred five thousand dollars for that job- and you know she didn't know she didn't When she was happy to have their job, she was one of many examples that was probably the most extreme. I realise that not a lot of women had that creating confidence asked the additional stock options to ask? Is this the best salary asking all those questions to me? for I was getting treaty. fairly and getting you know adequately maintaining a you know. A lot of women aren't raise that way. Think that way, or there are practices and policies that dont reinforce that. But you know it grows
when, in the things were working on is thinking about. How do we work to use the power of our purse to help on that gender pay gap and making sure we're working with partners who are committed to same job same pay and committed to, being at least thirty percent? Female leadership you were on the board of girls. Cuts of the United States of America force for years, and then you became interim seat YO and then see YO couple years ago, when you too, over the organisation was having some difficulty in terms of membership and leadership. Can you describe what it was like coming in? What would the fixes are challenges you immediately turned to you know whether things about being on the board is year of straw. Jeanne governance. You're, not an operational execution and me being technology exists If I was always in my head playing on these scenarios like what would I do so when that opportunity came, it was We focused on really three things. It's
about membership. It's about the movement in its about money and to get people very focus. It that's what we're we're about the girl. We have to provide a fine relevant and safe experience for the girl, and so many girls. America now have a digital device in their hands, as does there mom or their parents. So let's get programming that hopes them not just be users of technology but the creators and the inventors and designers, we have this amazing ability to reach girls across Amerika. So we have a scale, is unmatched. And right now we're using that to create the workforce of the future coming up after the break how the girls girls are trying to create that workforce, there's things like design thinking, there's robotics there, data analytics, there's coding, programming, engineering, cyber security, badges and, let's not forget the cash that makes Paul this possible? The cookie problem
is really to teach these really great business skills and also to provide the funding for it. Organization. It's coming up red after this. Fr Economics, radio sponsored by capital, one with no fee is or minimums on checking and savings accounts banking with capital, One is the easiest decision in the history of decisions like choosing to listen to another episode of your favorite podcast and with their top rated app. You can deposit x and transfer money anytime anywhere making capital one. and even easier decision. That's banking re imagine, What's in your wallet terms, apply capital one. a member of the Icy
for economics. Radio sponsored by Petsmart Petsmart makes it safe and easy for you to care for your pet at Petsmart. The health and safety of employees, pet parents and pets are its most important, which is why they require face coverings, social distancing and stop plexiglas shields and enhanced cleaning to follow CDC recommendations for contact with him, thing just order online at Petsmart, not com or on the Petsmart APP joy, easy curbside, pick up for same day, delivery powered by door dash free through January thirty. First, two thousand twenty one check out: Petsmart dot com for more details. with her engineering background and on career, intact firms and a little bit Iraq I am thrown in. You can see why so They also beta was an appealing choice to run the girl scouts. Its mission
is essentially to empower girls to succeed in life in any Recently, digital world success often means an intense engagement with technology. In that regard, girls and women are trailing. They severely under represented at tech firms, especially senior leadership. Were women hold about one in ten positions? There are, of course, many possible factors behind this underrepresentation, but ass. A veto is determined to at least turn some nose into yeses, so you just have to keep Whaley objections. To that end. The girl scouts have been adding a lot of badges and programmes that promote stemmed learning science, technology engineering amount Then so, there's things like design thinking, there's robotics. There's data analysed Eggs there's NASA bad is about. Space science, there, citizen science, there's coding, programming engineering,
irish security. Badges is just really great and it will always focus on out whereas in leadership, but it soon? Orton right now to make sure that we can give girls the skills they need to lead in the twenty first century Our cyber security in particular, has been massively successful. You dont in our first eight months, oversight Twenty five thousand badges have been earned. That's just girls. Five to ten are the girl cyber benches are coming out and then that's because we really have a team. We have psychologist on staff, Phds, academics as well as practitioners in the field. We put it in a way that girls love an end led really. Well so people say how'd you in cyber secure you teach girls about malware and networking few looked at the standard ways, people are saying well networking and the physical layers of seven stack protocols and the first layers the physical
Seven and eight year old girls are like checked out in their defence. I checked out long ago, but now what we do, your seventy eight year old girl. So we ask you to say the circle and talk with your friends, you think they're gonna do that absolutely then we give them a ball of yarn and they passed the. aren't you one another as their speaking In a few minutes there able to see a physical network and their able to see how maybe the inner sally didn't talk to Sarah, but they both talk to allow who had a virus and that's how the virus got spread, and you see that it is incredibly relevant to them. Let's talk about the economics of girls. Don't go so from what I see on the most recent form. Nine. Ninety tax return, the girl, Scots filed total revenues for the organisation was just over a hundred thirty million dollars, but girl scout cookie revenues. I understand, do not flow to the central organizations at true. That is true
when you're buying girl, scattered easy. You are supporting that local girl and that local council, all your money, stays local okay. So I've read reports of annual cookie revenues are, neighbourhood of seven hundred two eight hundred million dollars is that roughly accurate. That is correct. We are the second largest, ok Business in America? Second, only to Oreo who makes your cookies. We have two different baker: when's called ABC and the other one is little Bernie Baker. One of is more of a contract Baker ABC by dumb Little Brownie Baker used to be owned by colleagues, but it's in the process of being sold. It sounds as if the cookie programme is really a very, very key components. Girls cuts both for on trips. Ariel and goal setting and financial purposes within the girl scouts. Yes, so one of the reasons that we have been able to thrive,
for over a hundred years, is Julia Gordon low. When she learned about an enterprising girl Scout Council in Oklahoma, the hit was doing a cookie sale. She meeting they saw that that was how we could find the movement. I am so grateful for that, because that is I want us to continue to be inclusive and diverse from them. Very beginning, because the cookie programme did fund our growth and in funds and supports the organization now in owed in terms the money. Staying local, a percentage in that varies perks, Council of Dollar state within the troops of the girls can use their cookie cash. For different programmes. Say I really wanted to reign on your parade and say I am all in favour of female accomplishment, female entrepreneurship, etc, etc, but I'm a little uncomfortable in this day of poor health and obey city that the foundation of the Girl Scouts Financial Mountain is built on cookies, which are both very sugary and and fattening again
I admit I am raining, I'm afraid, I'm being as devolution advocate as I could possibly be. But let's say I say that what do you say to that? You know the thing its once. A year is an indulgence. Right are proportions have remained small. We don't have the gigantic cookies and what you're during your dollar is going to really create a female entrepreneurs or you were teaching. many skulls business skills, management, skills, customer business, ethics, skulls and this, as you know, a girl's first business, and we only offer that once a year three months here, I wondered about the once a year actor is well, you know, scarcity is a powerful force and it tends to drive man, but it also may leave opportunity here Money on the table and really curious about the organizations attitude toward either low, then the selling time- or maybe there would be two or three seasons year, because it's hard for me to imagine that an organisation could oversea.
An operation that is so successful and so profitable and not want to say hey. If we did it twice a year, we could bring in, maybe two acts or one point, eight extra money. What's your position on that year? Really thinking like a for profit business, we really focused on the girl and the cooking programme is really to teacher these really great business skills and also to provide the funding for the organisers. He said the girl doubts are often held up as an example of a successful social enterprise nonprofit or what call a nonprofit with a for profit arm. This does not, of course, highly shielded from competition in two thousand and three the girl scout. nearly three million youth members, along with just under a million Adele volunteers? They since fallen to below two million youth members. Some competition lately has come from the boy scouts
ok, the girl scout relationship with the boy Scouts of America. How would you describe that relationship? One word for starters: supper Ok, I understand that the girl scouts her are presently suing the boy scouts. Yes, can you give us a background? sure you know they made a change in their policy and decided to accept girls, but we- are the owners intellectual property owners train MIKE on its of girl scout the phrase girls counts, so you cannot. Ah people in that organization, females and then a realization girl scout. We are the girl scout. Some richest back up the boy scouts began to admit female scouts, correct as that. Essentially, what triggered this content a moment ago, they decided to open up their membership to two girls. Did your organization approach them and try to have amicable discussions about how to work this out, or did it quickly get to the lawyers
they told us that they were making that decision. So it wasn't like you know, bringing us and they do so. here's. What we're going to do and then. We would share with them. There were all these instances of people calling females. their organisation girl scouts, and that is our organization, so No, your membership has declined somewhere, but a boy scouts membership has fallen much faster than yours. Give any thoughts is too I that is, do you think the girl scouts or more able to the modern american girl than the boy scouts are to the modern american boy. You know, I really can't we know making on their organisation, but what I can say about girls scouts is, we really are focused on a girl, only experience and to create program that works for me that is designed around the way girls learn and lead in. That's really what we're experts and I M really curious your thoughts same sex education generally, a lot of great women
only colleges have over the past, forty or fifty years become co ed. I know the research on same sex education is kind of mixed up in progress right now. It's it's really hard to find a definitive answer, but do you think that is a loss for society I know that in a historically what you're talking about the college level, True, there are fewer of them, but you know I used to live in Texas in Austin Texas, in across the state. There are just a huge growth of the number of all girls public schools, so you know, I really saw that big increase. We live, the current world, but we are talking about girls. You know we work with girls, five, eighteen and why to give them that met confidence in those skills so that they can be successful in life and navigate the world and clearly are come show that they can so I'm guessing that the girl Scouts of the USA will not ever accepted, boys. You know just like any good business, you focus on what you do well and what we are.
sports in girls learning lead. Curious to know about the girl Scouts policy. I guess on policy I can think of a number of issues that are in the new today that a female position would have a particular take on whether its immigration, whether its abortion and so on, and so what is the official posts on politics and policy the endorsement of candidates and things like that. We're non partisan, organization. We exist for the girls, so we don't tell me, rolls went to value what to think so couple years ago. When there are a lot of praise and a lot of different things, people said a gross got. You need to be in the middle of that and we know what we do. Do as we realize you know what people want is change, especially changes. In policies and in politics- and we said well, let's make sure that girls understand. You know how
you do that in a democracy, regardless of what it is so We are teaching. Girls had agreed to change, they want to see in the world. The positive change they want to see, but we're not telling them what that is. So, let's say, I'm a girl Scout group and I decide that, for instance, Elizabeth WAR and, I think, is a great presidential candidate and I want to participate and help in campaign events for Elizabeth WAR, and then I want all of our girls to go in there scout uniforms allowed or now. So what we encourage people is too. We really encourage you to get out the boat. We encourage you to encourage people to go out in a boat as a girl scout endorsed as in cruel scout, that's not with our Innovation is about. It see. As though the line between what's political and what's not political is much Much blurry or these days and it used to be- and I'm just curious
whether that line is a little bit harder to navigate. or the girl scouts, and it might have been twenty thirty. Fifty years ago, there are always people trying to fishes one way or the other it's interesting I can be. In one part of the country and say our message exactly and people will say: oh, my god, you are from New York, you are so liberal. I can then take that exact, saying this to go to another part of country. Whether someone got you guys are just so conservative get with the Times girl scouts Ok, thank you! So much. It was great speak with you, always wonderful. I really enjoyed it and keep buying growth strategies coming up next time on economics, radio, there's Coke and Pepsi Boeing and Airbus Sharks in the it's all famous- do Applebee's time to add one more applicants and Democrats. Could it be that most of the things you hate about politics,
due to how the Republicans and Democrats have concluded to choke off competition, so that part These have divided the voters. And kind of sort of ignored the ones in the middle class if the middle voter is unhappy which most middle voters are today in Amerika, what can they do? America's hidden do happily its next time on economic, Fr Economics radio is produced by stature and w productions. This episode was produced by Daphne Chen. Our staff also includes Alison Craig Little Gregg ribbon. Harry Huggins Zactly Kinsky met Hickey, incurring Wallace. We have held this week from Nellie Osborne or Themes, is Mr Fortune hitchhikers. Although the music was composed by we scare, you can subscribe to freedom. radio on Apple podcast, Spoonbill, podcast, Spotify or any other Pakistan. Our entire archive can be found exclusively on the strap or at for economics dot com, where we also pub
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Transcript generated on 2021-01-19.