You know the saying: a winner never quits and a quitter never wins. To which Freakonomics Radio says ... Are you sure?
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dumplings now in the freezer I'll paper. Es listeners, Levitt Nigh, are doing some intense research this summer, so we bring you now. This encore presentation of one of our favorite for economics, radio broadcasts of all I'd like you to stop whatever you're doing right now. I don't like stop, so you can give your full attention. This radio show em in honestly radios the perfect medium for multitasking, less, maybe change? What I mean is stop whatever you're doing as in doing with your life, maybe your job. Maybe it's a relationship that colonel Maybe there's some dream project. You ve been working on so long
Can you remember what you'll healed up about in the first place? I want to encourage you to just quit, release think about quitting. Why? Well because everybody- us, is always saying the opposite, nothing is over until we decide it is was it german Yet it is wrongly. Its becomes so in green we don't even think about it. You know a glitter, never wins a winner, never quits, when I hear people say that I think are you sure I'm happy. from w and my see and ATM american public media. This is Reaganomics radio
today, the upside of quitting here's, your host, Stevens Abner,. So I hang out with a lot of economists. I know you're envious, but there are two: the things they love to talk about that will help us understand quitting one is called sunk costs, other is opportunity. Cost sunk cost is about the past at that time, money or sweat equity that you ve put into something which makes it hard to abandon opportunity. Cost is about the future, means that for our or dollar you spend on one thing: you're giving up Opportunity to spend that our dollar and something else something that might make your life better, if only you weren't, so worried about the sunk cost, only you could wit. Let's see with a story of a woman, will call Alley beckoned.
Eighteen. Ninety nine, when she was about twenty five alleys life was already what most people would consider pretty successful, I was working for a fortune five hundred large company. What kind of work were you doing? industrial computer programming. What kind of man Who are you making them ass sixty seventy thousand dollars a year, and you were living where I was living in Texas, okay, so six years, a thousand dollars as a twenty five year living in Texas goes a pretty long way. That's for sure, sounds pretty good and and and how did you like to spend your money generally and I don't like a twenty five year old women now shares and in our had a nice place, less than a decent Carter Drive so and how did you like the job I never Once again, I am more of a social person and it requires long on periods of sitting at eight,
Peter desk. Talking to nobody, I understand that you ended up quitting this job in your new pursuit. Did you have to take a big pay cut? Then you'd up headway better way, better, like fifty percent, more twice as much here, I am more than three times as much more times as many somewhere around their around four times as much Yeah, maybe even more in war? You must have. That means you must have had to work way more hours and you'd worked as a computer program or than right. Let us vote, so great about it. I had to work a lot less. You must have been very, very, very difficult or unplug. Work them now. I I enjoyed my work and am enjoy my free time and, of course, they extra money. Allow me to do a lot to do who said, I was unable to day before so tell me what was this new work that you found. The news
Father I found was. I was a high and escort in aid where between three hundred fifty hundred dollars an hour in retrospect. How do you feel about that decision back then to quit that solid, steady, fairly good, paying job for the life of hi and escort yeah, of course, always scary to leave behind something that some legit- and and go with something that maybe isn't considered that it now I really enjoyed. I am. I know that it was the right decision for me. For me, I don't have a problem was having sex with strangers, that it was in something I outlived was and I enjoyed, I enjoyed my customers. I enjoyed the kindness and I enjoyed every part of it
right, so we're probably starting off on the wrong foot. Here I encourage you to think about quitting and the first person we hear from quite a perfectly good job to become a hooker but hear me out my thesis, is simple in our zeal to tough things out? to keep our nose to the grindstone and our zeal to win? We underestimate the upside of quitting now full disclosure. Here I am a cereal. Quitter, I've quit a dream job with New York Times. I quit my childhood dream: being a rock star, Ivan Quitter Religion, we'll get to my quits later. First, here's some one who made headlines when he quit. Well, I I decided it. This was long in coming I was feeling more and more miserable about not seeing my kids, it was weighing on me to a greater and greater extent. I the decision that shortly after the election, I would leave.
And then one day I went into Lee Oval Office and explain to the president that I just I just felt that I had no choice. He was very understanding about it. That's Robert Rice, he was the! U S, secretary of Labour during President Clinton's first term, he helped put in place, the family and medical leave act. He raised the minimum wage on his watch. Unemployment fell below five percent. The lowest had been in twenty years, it's hard to say how effective any one per in Washington really is, but Time magazine named race, one of the ten best cabinet members of the twentieth century and then race quit, but then the for me was well. How do I alert my employees and the segment of the public that felt
they were relying on me in some way. How did I handle it publicly that it's a delicate matter? I decided that I would write and a bed for the New York Times. My personal family leave act. I had been no responsible for implementing the family. Medical leave act that actually watch past years before and it seems to me important to say two men as well as women, that it is ok to leave your job here. As rice wrote, it was his dilemma quote you love your job and you love your family and you desperately want more of both. His wife and two teenage sons were back in Cambridge Massachusetts and he was well. He could have been anywhere in the other. Cabot officers go to
wonderful locations round the world, Paris and London in Shanghai and elsewhere? I secretary of Labour, goes to Toledo, oh hi, or may be Saint Louis. If it's really a great day, the funny thing is no one believed rice quit because he actually wanted to spend more time. but this family- let's see oh say when their booted, but people especially male people. Don't quit White House jobs to do that. But racially men it ass. He saw it. There was a big upside quitting. It was exactly the right move. I think, if I had not done it, I would have regretted it all. My life would have spent anytime. I, when I M in the boys than would have gone off to college off to their careers, and I just wouldn't: of those years. At the same time, I think I was fully myself a little bit in thinking that young teenage boys would drop everything when their father came home.
Oh god, it's great to have you, let's play no, they. They were very happy to have me there, but then they said no but Edward we're goin off of their friends, so I've kind of wood then trail around after them a little bit with my metaphorical tail between my legs and try to say will would you like a play when you will have a going to a baseball game. Robert right quit. What was for him a dream? Job running Department of Labour, the United States, atomic When you were a kid you dream running the Department of Labour or me you had a dream that sounded more like this, get a phone call says how's. It feel to be the next member, the use and asked rose, and you just get it. It's a dream come true. So I ended up signing got some money to pay for school and went straight majority. That's just in Humphreys not long ago he was considered one of the best young baseball players in the country. A big power here
from a suburb, if he's getting drafted by the home town asked rose was especially sweet and they threw in money for education for later. But I wasn't thinking about that- you had one goal. To make the major so went off. The asteroids merely team in Martens build region, and then more beans in Kentucky Indiana Florida Jersey? But not, you may have noticed Houston, he hit pretty well. oh, but he heard his wrist and then his knee and in two thousand nine at the rape age of twenty seven Humphreys quit baseball. Now, only eleven percent of the kids who get drafted each year make the majors, but probably close, one hundred percent them think they will Humphreys even before he quit for good started back in school.
at a junior college in Texas. He wound up transferring to Columbia University where he took a sociology course with professor named severe think attention. You may recognize that name we, what about his exploits in Freak Atomic says a grad student in Chicago vanquished embedded himself with a crack gang and got access to their finance records. We wrote about him and superfluous dynamics to he did and extensive survey of ST prostitutes. Guess what Vanka Tesh studying these days, I'm interested in quitting for a number of reasons, not least of which is that it's hard for me but ask them. it's just really really hard. The older you get, especially when you start identifying by yourself with a job. I say you actually looked in a fairly soon magic empirical way at baseball players so I actually never thought I would be interested in looking at baseball from the standpoint of a job, and one of my son it's just an humphreys used to play baseball for the huge Astro Organisation and
so my class. So as a sitting there in a classroom. I started thinking about all the issues I'd seen an independent baseball, affiliated, baseball, guys living checked, a czech showing with words go back to school family life issues at home, and I thought if I could use some of the things that we were learning and class talk to some of these guys and find out whether the stories and and things that I was seeing and hearing will be reflected in the numbers? We followed a sample of the draft class of two thousand and one, and so that's about the arts ten years, and so we thought that would help us to understand what happens to these. Now this this doesn't include the immigrants because they came into the country and they didn't go through the draft to play ball. These are just the people who were, out of high school or who were in college and they were drafted by a major league team. I think one of the most curious things We find is how much ten years matter. So, if you take to people who grew up in the same certain dances. Let's say one play baseball in one. Didn't the person who plays baseball,
making about forty percent less on average ten years after they enter the game than the person who decides not to play baseball, And who just wanted a regular career are so what kind of background is typical these american born players at your tracking, the average player pro looks like an upper middle class, kitten who comes out of college or comes at a high school, and when you first when upper middle class kid for about seven to ten years there, probably gonna make higher than median average income there, probably gonna, live in a neighborhood, that's relatively safe, they're gonna have a career. Now, when you take the counterpart among the pull that was drafted, that median kid that kid looks like he's making about twenty two, twenty four thousand, a year which is not a lot of money, he's working, probably five governments playing baseball and then struggling to find part time. Work in the off season might be coaching might be doing, some training might be working on. A construction site might be working in fast,
so severe. You went down to Camden not longer right to talk to some these ballplayer step now. Camden, I believes in the Atlantic League, which is an independent league me this no direct path to a big league team, a lotta guys at a time like this. They have already been through the minor leagues and either top down and talent or age thou rate, most of the guys in the cabin river sharks are probably in their late twenties, and so they have actually had careers in the minor league system and it didn't happen for them, and so they come into the Atlantic League. Thinking that there still gonna be able to make you sort of Wanta be able to tell them. How did you do? You know that you're right, it's really unlikely that you're gonna make it, and the fact is that we learned that very few people, if any around them, are telling them this so they're not really prepare. to talk about it, except some, particularly this guy Noah Hall was,
really really interesting person, because he actually was thinking that this may be the end. Its pride I happen to have avenant by I'm still gonna? U now prepare everything the same way I would regardless and gives you never know you still never. Now I m in a bad way, back of a mine, it's still there and I now I feel, like the just me, I feel Sometimes I have a good start this year. Whatever happens you never now I could get picked up and if I went Wherever I wish, I could have been no one is thirty. Four Noah has Plain sixteen cease, yes, including this one. When you look at em, you probably don't think that he is a baseball player. He looks like a running back this. a guy who really looks like he's. Never ever going to stop playing some gases. See the writing on the wall, and I just try to ignore them
who are our? Let's hear I don't know I just an oil, look back and say that I didn't give it everything I could and on, and I think I still I could still play another I too, am I beg to knows from Northern California, and he was raised by his mom a nurse and knows, I have a wife Kelly and they have a lovely son I sail and Kelly and eyes their follow Noah around to what ever team he ends up playing for that season, and let me tell you he's play for a lotta teens over the years after Knowest practice. I had a chance to out to dinner with call family get to know them a little bit. I'm the one who's there like when he gets out. We have a good game and or when he has a bad game like I'm the one who I go through that kind of closer with him so strange. We found out when we spoke. A baseball players is that they have their own language for quitting. They actually quit. They just don't call it. Then they don't call acquitting they don't call it giving
but you know what I'm just going to shut it down for a while. What does it mean to be a Twitter as proposed a shudder down You said it, really do you ever, but we never wanted to town, but yet all so back to shouted I am especially in the last couple years, yeah person last properly we really tired. We ve actually motto as its I understand being is rife in trying to be supportive. I understand that it's gotta be really because I do know how much he loves the game. Well, that's particularly poignant, in my view, because you know baseball's when those rare sports that, because it doesn't have a clock,
No game is ever out of reach him and you can be behind a thousand runs in the bottom in length and theoretically you can still come back and when so that's part of the ethic of basic was never never never quit quitting is not an option. Accordingly, it is usually not an option, but do not just in is trying to make it easier for the players to to quit enter to make that transition he's been workin on building an organisation that that could help baseball players to to get out baseball when the time is right and to join the that world that the rest of us live in one year, twenty five playing an independent body making less than two thousand dollars a month living off your parents, because you can't financially sustain yourself like that at some point to say: look, I've got a with no degree. I had lesson associates agree at that point. So at somebody and herself I can't do this to myself. I can't do this to my parents and I can continue
when I know there is unfair untapped potential to do other things, just in Humphreys stare break into the dark part of his son costs all those years he spent pursuing his dream, He made the big Quinn will hear more from suit your bank attach later in the show in a moment you. What my number crunching for Economics- CO, authors, Steve Levin in common with a bunch of ebbs crunching Navy seals. Reconfirmed radio sponsored by wonder is business movers podcast when cocoa will it change their recipe to what they called new Coke in nineteen
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oh, how important it is to have a healthy cashflow. That's why we, take payments with square either in person or online. You get your money fast access it instantly vs where card a free business. debit card or transfer it to your bank. Account on you reschedule see all the ways Square can health at square dot com slash, go slash. Freak, though nonsense from W N Y see this is free economics, radio, here's, your host, Stephen governor. Football players like just in Humphreys and no a hall quitting their athletic dream is a long, painful process. Steve Levitt he's my free economic spheres,
CO, author, an economist at the University of Chicago he advocates quitting fast. I try to talk my grandson sinned, acquitting all the time quitting grad school and gradual yeah. That's a lot of people, you make choices without lot information, and then you get information and quitting is often the right thing to do. I try to talk my kids in acquitting soccer baseball than I couldn't I mean I I've. her head any shame in quitting acquit economic theory quit macro economics. I pretty much quit everything that I am You do have this monster fail fast for quickly. Exactly so, I have our say one of the single most important excellently
for how I managed to succeed against all odds in the field of economics. It was by being a quicker than that ever since the beginning, my mantra has been fail quickly. If I started with a hundred ideas, I'm lucky if two or three of those ideas will ever turned academic papers. One of my great skills as an economist has been to recognise the need to fail quickly and the willingness to jettison a project, soon, as I realise it is likely to fail getting talked and acquitting grew. school buyer hundred fifty five pound. Professor is one thing: how about a Navy seal instructor. So how, week is considered to be the hardest week of the hardest military training in the world. That's Eric grains! He got a phd in politics from third and then joined the Navy seals. He fought in Iraq Afghan
fan and elsewhere is now written a book called the heart and the fist. The education of a humanitarian, the making a navy seal. Here's how Greece He's remembers how weak it is a week of continuous military training during which most classes sleep for a total of two to five hours. Over the course of the entire week during how weak they have you running. four miles on in soft sand on the beach doing two mile ocean swims running the obstacle course they put small teams and ask a land small rubber boats on jagged rocks in the middle of the night. There all these tasks which are designed to push people to their? Physical, mental and emotional limit hell weak as a use away for the Navy to determine who was fit to be a seal. The kind of first need want to send to get Osama Bin Laden Great and says the instructors hover over you taunting, you practically begging,
quit and the vast majority would quit before was over. That's the point you hear that Structures come out on their bull horns and say right gentleman. This is only the beginning of the second night in what they did. Then Was the instructors took us out any aligned us up on the beach and they had us watch as the sun was set and ass? The sun was setting the instructor started to get inside people's minds and they say I can give you the hardest and a cold is in the top. Was inside of your lives and they'd come over the bull horns and they say then we get just yet its owner and ended worse in your only at the beginning, and they really stuck. they to get inside people's minds, and I can remember the instructors And yet one point and Nobody quits right now will give you a hot coffee and donuts right. Let's everybody was freezing, so they set up this little incentive over there. If you, if you want to go over the bell you can quit and I'll give you hot coffee and on in the whole idea. Is it the instructors
really encourage, they want everyone to succeed, but if people are going to quit, they want to encourage them. to quit. When you quit my the bell, you ring it three times This tells everyone in your shot that you're done great and says there are two kinds of quitters ones to make excuses and the ones who are honest with himself. Here. I dont think it. Many people want to say to themselves that they quit. At the same time we ve all failed in our lives. We ve all failed at different things in different ways and I think a lot to be said for facing that failure squarely in the, People who I know who were able to admit you know it wasn't the right thing for me: At that time and I went over and I decided to quit, I decided to ring the bell. There really able to move on from their experience, and I do find that you know, there's only shame in it. If you, if you feel shame
So what would you say if I told you there is evidence that quitting is good for you physiologically and psychologically good for you, people who are better able to let go when they experience unattainable goals. They have as experience, for example, less depressive symptoms, less negative aspect over time. They all have lower qualities or levels, and they have lower levels of systemic, information which is a mark of immune functioning and they develop fewer physical health problems of that's Karsten Rush, no relation a robber race rush is a psychology professor concordant University in Montreal.
study of mainly adolescence. He and a colleague found that being able to abandon goals that are essentially unattainable is good for your health. Now ask yourself: what's unattainable and what's not when just in Humphreys was eighteen years old, the major league seem pretty attainable by twenty five, not so much. If I we're put through Hell, weak on pain of all? According to rush, each of us encounters an unattainable goal about once a year, unfortunately nobody's walking around with a big neon sign, urging us to quit. So does a puzzle and we need your help in solving it. If persistence is a virtue generally, how
is a person to know when he or she under which circumstances he or she should quit or disengage. Yeah. That sets, I would say, the one million dollar quest I went went to struggle and when to quit- and I dont think that there is a general answer to this question. However, people can make to different mistakes in the regulation of their life. They can quit too early when they should have persisted or they can quit too late. O k. no offense professor rash, but the summary helpful. Sometimes you quit too early when should have persisted, and sometimes even this too long, you should have quit really that's all you ve got really. It's always got, which shows, if nothing else, what a true dilemma. This is to quit. we're not to quit. Let me ask at this hour
are you much of a quitter? I I I I am bad at creating. I already have a difficult time. I try to persist as much as possible. Maybe while others are. Phenomenon is also interesting to me. Well, maybe I can help you Why don't you tell me something that you're involved in that year? That you think is a goal that may be unattainable and I'll try to talk into quitting. Well. At this point, I had half. I can't think about something that is unattainable right now. These things thinks they pop up over time, so smoke do smoke by chance. Yeah. Actually, I'm a smoker here I want it. You want to quit smoking our air on some level, but on a different level. I enjoy it very much
this conversation went on for a while of spare you the details. Let me just say this either. I am increase happily and persuasive or Carson, really really doesn't want to quit, maybe both He says he wants to quit, but you really doesn't sound like it's like. A ban, Oh Henry story: the professor of quitting can't quit smoking, but you can empathize, can't you I cannot, but there's something you really want. A quick in no you'll be healthier for it, but you can't try, try tribe you just can't until one day. Finally, you wake up and you have this vision of what your life would be like. Without that thing in it, and it's not so terrible,
tell my first quit yeah, that's my ban. We recalled the right profile started in college in North Carolina reform of us. We are pretty bad at first, but we took it. Curiously kept at it and that's how I sound when I sing. We worked hard, because it was incredibly fund, but also because it was our dream. I mean come on. Good doesn't dream at some point of being, Aye, Sir John, when you, that song, which you didn't play on this recording, but you play the song. I don't know how many times you think that a plane, the song in your life, I'd probably like pure apparently fit fifty times. It's John Worstered. We call them Chester, but his actual name is John. He was our drummer
drummer, you might know his name. He went on to play with super trunk for years. He still plays with them and with a mountain, goat stew, other guys in the ban- Would Jeff Foster. In TIM Fleming, we played all over the place. We may demo tapes. We really the single and we got a management team in New York City, the same guys who manage the replacements and the Del Fuego surveys that we love and the managers brought us up to New York to play for the major record labels. Two months later remember playing going up, Fiji bees in New York to play their showcase show for some labels, one of which was arrested I remember just in total dives dvd beast, there was a table on the table, was a just a card that said reserved for Clive Davis. Do member going up to two their office on that trip, and you may, when they, He put everything on the phone briefly to tell us to sign with barrister. I'd yes and I
amber. What, when that, whenever any kind of walked away, we would go and looked through people's role, taxes to find the personal numbers of Coralie Simon, and somebody I remember like quiver use them. We thought that was hilarious. Just telling the thumb through this rolodex and find her. her number. So it's true, if Davis, the music industry giant signed us heirs to record it was incredibly exciting, but also weird. We were this little in be half pankey. Half country band used doing things way. We did them and now moved to New York it was hard. Maybe we're just a bad state with Eric. Did they wanted pockets and we didn't seem to have him
and the other thing is, I wasn't really showing wandered bureaucracy, as and go? We were pretty straight lace: no drugs, not much drinking, but the whole lifestyle species got a little bit more successful start hanging around with bigger bands. It became less attractive to me the idea of wanting to be famous, which seemed really fun at first hand of steel unsavory unhealthy for six years. This was all a but one night sitting in my hotel room in Memphis working on some lyrics in my notebook, and I found of writing the words. What do I want? I thought about I don't really know anymore and then I wrote not this a couple weeks later, I quit the band, we're playing some songs and we can just tell you weren't You were gonna moody and maybe
something was wrong. We knew what was wrong. We knew that this might be where it part soon. I think we just we didn't, have felt that and We played something in and remember Jeff saying to you what like what's much wrong or what's your problem and I don't know exactly what you said, but I remember something to effective one. Do this anymore, the hardest part being in the band wasn't just what I did was what I was like just in Humphreys, another ball players, baseball is in just a thing: you do it's, your identity I'll be out what he was tough fight aggrieved. Warned- and I had to start over as a writer at that point in know much about economics. I'd never heard of this some cost fallacy, but by quitting something I'd put years of work into that's what I fighting against one of the most common examples as the Vietnam WAR, because it was Having said that, we invest it too much to quit. Well, it started
I did I continue to invest if you feel it's a losing course of action. That's how Arcas Caesar psychology, professor at Ohio, State University, a sunk cost. That's what it sounds like time or money that you ve already spent the sunk cost. Fallacy is when you tell yourself that you can't quit something because of all that time or money the charity spent. We shouldn't fall for this fallacy, but we do it all the time Arcas and a colleague learn something that makes falling for the sunk cost fallacy even more embarrassing. It turns out that children don't fall for it or even animals. Your dogs that can have any rules like I spent a lot of time at their location, waiting formed a feed me and when I went away, all the time so I'll go back. There might, even, though, isn't very successful. humans. Have these things they get in the way? What gets in the way, apparently
We take a rule. We learn growing up to not be wasteful and we over apply it welders that is that what we are working on actually can be rescued can be resuscitated, making them sanction and trying to decide whether this is a truly last cause or not. I recognize is difficult decision sometimes goes. not one of these things were its clearly one or the other, but after enough nay negative feedback, it should be more clear. I guess, with my band. Finally had enough negative feedback to quit tell you the truth. Some of the feedback, storm still It was insanely fun and a part of me still wishes. I stuck it out at least a finished at first reading with Aristotle, but the bottom line. I am so glad I quit for me it was the right.
Much as I miss music. Sometimes the upside of quitting for me meant that I got to lead a life more like the one that I envisioned coming up Remember, AOI the high and escort from the start of the show well she's back quitting again. Fr economic radio sponsored by progressive insurance were customers, save an average of more than seven hundred fifty dollars when they switch and save visit, progressive dot com to get your car insurance quote. It only takes about seven national annual average, auto insurance savings by new customers surveyed in twenty nineteen potential savings will very pronounced radio sponsored by better help online
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to get out as they escort business. You know it was wonderful to me. I enjoyed a lot of money, but I don't regret quit either an irritant, opportunity, cost and when I went into the Epp group is, as I wasn't dating. Anybody I just really will enjoy lies and be free and that's what I did. But I somebody and- and we decided to gather. Dad you know that we wanted a lifestyle that didn't include prostitution, so I'd. Let it go in besides enjoying life and travelling in spending time with your companion. What else have you been doing? I went to school. I study economics and bad. You know, mostly I'm enjoying enjoying life. You know
I realise that alley. Isn't your typical prostitute? First, while she made a lot of money, and on top of that she went back the steady economic. So she really gets opportunity caused. So much so that when the time is right, she quit being a prostitute, severe, bank fish, the sociologist who talk to bathing baseball players, forest has also been asking prostitutes about quitting. But first I asked him about something that he recently quit. I quit a an administrative job that I had my university for a couple of years and I shall probably should have quit. After a couple of days. Why'd you quit Finally, as well, I think quit because I realized that dumb. I was no good at the job in a lucky
I have a job as a professor, and so I'm not in the ranks of the unemployed, like so many people who sometimes good jobs that they don't like. So I'm back to doing research, which I love you heard me talking to Ali, who kind of falls into that rear categories is someone who did very very well and decided to if not cash out necessarily state to stop. But I understand you talk to some people, sex workers, one they Maxine. I believe who doesn't see that as the way to go to talk me lowered about Maxine in her attitude toward quitting. I should say that we're not using the real names of the women were interviewed here but Maxine as were calling her a really curious person, because she really goes Those against a lot of stereotypes that we have about the women in sex work she's been working as a sex worker for twenty two years. She laughs as she says. You know. I don't know if I'm ever gonna quit Vienna, never think about retiring.
Oh a many workers who are in their fifties. Sixties I met with. and in her early seventies, who is still working and in our current society, with the the tearing down of our infrastructures, are social security nets. All of us are gonna, be work, for a long time are a suitor. So there are those prostitutes who do quit and I wonder you know. How does it happen? How do you if you want to go from sex work into the legitimate labour market? How do you go about principle, together, resonate right. Imagine you ve been a sex workers for year two years, three years, five years, and you have to account for that time. Yet to account for what you ve done crystal do was. Is the code rector of the sex workers project that the urban Justice Centre in New York, city and actually one of the services the centre, provides a crystal help? Sex workers with is getting their resonate ready, so it becomes clear
So we dig deep and they say what have you time somebody might say. Well, I used the wash cars with my uncle and the weakest honour that wasn't a job. That was just a thing right and, as I know, you know, when I make the sound of your words, you know that it's a job, it was a job. You will working, you shut up, you're, doing a good job and nine times out of ten the persons as I that's lying, and I can do that and have to brilliant than the same look. Everybody is beefing up the resume so doing with the resume is one thing, but when you leave sex work, you also faced this issue about taking a huge pick up. They will probably never meet that kind of money. Again we spoke to someone Maya who is a former prostitutes who now works as a Booker as a manager. She schedules and screens appointments for other sex workers into honours on later women violence of going back to fix up, and I don't really want to get myself included in our even fucking. I don't really want a buck.
any more, but with very, very hard to go from making three hundred dollars an hour to making twenty five dollars an hour which would be decent pay and the rural world so severe. You ve talked to baseball players who are reluctant to quit, even though they're not gonna make the maid colleagues, you ve talked her sex workers, some of whom are reluctant to quit, but some of whom do a really really good job of it. For those who do a good job talked me about how they prepare for it and maybe how what they do. We could all learn from a little bit. The first is that you know you got it that bandaid off and do a quickly and the ones that are really successful and leaving a trade in which they thought that they were going to be doing for a long time or that they had to prepare for a lot of ours in when they make their decision quickly. They do what they do pretty well. I think this.
Do you not looking back? I know is it it's a cliched expression, but that so many of the people that are able to move on just go forward and the next time I take a job, I'm gonna see I'm gonna see if, at the second day, I shouldn't be figuring out how to get the hell out of here. I'm sure some of you as you listen to people talk about quitting prostitution, you're mine jumps the timeline and you got back inside these women from becoming prostitutes in the first place like watching a heart A movie. Will you say, open the door, but these women did open that door. There are, however, some places to get people to quit before they have even started? We sent Stacy vanished, Psmith reported for marketplace to get the details. how much do you like your job? If somebody offered you money to quit, how much would it take for you to do it? The shop is worth more than a million. Definitely silent.
very hard again end, but when she had just like the wizard of OZ there more city, that's how I feel Well, that's Christina Gomes, and would you believe she's talking about a job, the page, just a few bucks above minimum wage? The job is examined. In online shoe store that Amazon paid almost a billion dollars, foreign two thousand nine Adam, why training session in LAS Vegas? Everybody talk like that. Most of the third five people in my session were headed to the companies call Center, where El earn about eleven dollars an hour dealing with customer questions and complaints, but as a trains, these new hires Zappos also throws them. Curveball here's Marcella Gutierrez a trainer with Zappos member, how I said that we want this to be more than a job, for you guys,
We want to be a career. We wanted to be a call him for everybody, I'm here to offer you three thousand dollars. If you decide this is not the right place for you. It's known around Zappos as the offer during training. When new employees are already being paid. Zappos offers three thousand dollars to any new higher who wants to walk away from the job it's been going on for a few years, and it's gotten some press but secret or know what is the company thinking? I put that question to come, you see Yo Tony shape, who masterminded the offer is really pudding employing in the police Do you care more about money or due care more about this culture in the company, and if they care more about the easy money, then we probably aren't the right
for them. Zappos talks about its culture a lot and she says that culture is enough to keep people from taking an offer anywhere else or Zappos his offer to leave and when I say culture, I am not just talking about free so too, in the bridegroom and casual Fridays as discovered on the company tour with Zappos supervisor Lauren Becker. so we ve entered the main building. We can I officially kick off our real to everybody, wearing Smee girls in T shirt, there are sign up sheets for picnics and poker groups. Conference rooms are decorated in outer space and under the sea theme it looks like like the convergence of like seven different holiday is definitely does you'll, see of everybody's dusk was decorated, different micmacs are
lucky streamers us? It's pretty crazy people are so excited to join the crazy. They turned down the free money out of the nearly two thousand people's apis is trained. The company says only about thirty have ever taken. The offer. Christina Gomes is one of those people Remember her like the wizard of OZ, when the emerald City- that's what I feel like turns out a week after I talked with her Gomes, took the offer I called her up to ask for what current back. It was very cold, like you know, everything keep your head- and you know I gotta get Comfortable- is that, as I said, I have a big fat. I didn't really Ike about it until we broke up illnesses the offer, wasn't the main reason she quit. She says the: schedules apples gave her didn't work with her child care and another job. She has an apple, but How big an incentive is, the offer
three thousand dollars equals two months of busting, your husband call centre the fact almost no one takes it. just doesn't make sense. It does however, makes sense to Dan a reality, a behavioral economist, Duke who studies decisionmaking. He said that easy money is actually not so easy. The reason that this trick works is people spend ten days they become a part of the family. Zappos is all about making trainees feel like family they're happy hour. Recent scavenger hunts and team projects, and after all that and before you ve actually started working, you get the offer it's a limited time thing and when it expires, that's when it's real power kick since as orally some go cognitive dissonance. It says that if you have acted in a certain way overtime you going to offer justify your behavior so the next morning after you rejected the three thousand, knows you're going to wake up and say my In this I really must love these company. If I rejected this amount, translation we like suffering for things we,
We like it so much that if we suffer for something well actually decide. We must love it. Airily says for Any decent sororities work like this when they make Russia's stand in the rain or run naked across campus. Turning indignant into allegiance military sports teams religious cults. All use this tactic. To combining our tense desire to belong with. Intense desire to justify our actions. The result, a group of employees who won't even quit. If you pay them, that's marketplace reporter Stacy, Bannock Psmith, Zappos does sound a bit like a religion, including a religion, is never simple. My parents were a pair of Brooklyn born Jews who, before they met each other, both converted to roman catharsis. As was the midnight teen forties. My parents were in their twenties as you can imagine,
This conversion didn't over so well with their families. My dad's father, declared him dead, set. Shiver Fort never spoke to my father again, so I grew up in a very devout catholic family. The and youngest kid and then, when I was in my twenties, I quit Catholicism went back to Judaism. My mother took it hard but not nearly as hard as my dad's father, took it when he converted anyway, I've always been pretty interested in religious quits. My name is Cinema Miller Furlong. I am the author of a new memoir called why I left the amish I'm again written I go to college and Talons State University in Stephenville Texas in right now, I'm also working on finishing up my book getting published and what is your butt call them runaway, amish girl. I wanted to speak to
Gingrich and Salami Furlong, because quitting religion like the amish seems especially traumatic with the religion, family and community. All mixed up. When you look back at the decision you made, which was a big, the quit your religious lifestyle and religious community talk to me about the price that you feel you paid or the benefit that you gained. When I think of costs, I think of the things I mess and definitely the community atmosphere of knowing your place in the community is part of the costs. You know the church gatherings where they sing that The amish chance and feeling like there's a sense of legacy almost in that
but the side of it? There have been so many times so many moments in my life when I knew that quitting the Amish was the right thing to do. One example was on May twenty ninth of nineteen eighty two when I walked into the church sanctuary at church. Christ, church Presbyterian on the Redstone campus and saw my husband to be standing there enough in a blue tuxedo waiting for me to come up to the altar. That moment encapsulate at just how I was doing the right thing that was literally the happiest day.
Life so Emma if you could just described as briefly as long as you want kind of your childhood, what you know your family growing up and then getting to the point where you decided to leave and why and how that happened. My family used to make baskets and we would take them every Friday on and sell them at a little time, close to busy highway and sometimes It would be me and my sister, we did a lot of things that we weren't supposed to do, but that was Around fifteen was the time when I started thinking. about how we deal with leaves our mission sitting there selling baskets, you see a lot of people coming. We used to locate Carson Look, although different colours and try a pig wish, why we one if we would ever leave Amish due to feel like you became
a different person. Are you the same person who just needed a change of scenery and I but I really want to know is what was the cost to you of quitting the what were the downsides and what were the ups? I've learned downsides would be late, the family in knowing that nothing. Gonna? Be the same again when you go back home to visit and the website is yes, you are a different person. You become to me I became somebody else which was good for me,
how old are you now twenty three and do you have regrets about leaving no zero, not at all Salome, Furlong, isn't or fifties. She now lives in Massachusetts. Not long ago she did an informal survey of the Amish community where she grew up in geology, County Ohio out of about twenty five hundred households. She estimates some one hundred and seventy individuals left the community, so quitting isn't common, but it's not like it never happens. Either. Furlong says that her father was mentally ill and violent, and that, ultimately, is what led her to leave. My life was so unbearable that the fear of the known was greater than my fear of the unknown
For me, it's it's a matter of. Are you happy the way you are and if not, then quit what you do? It's that simple for me, you make it sound. So easy, I'm wondering if you quit other things in life. Besides the amish. Oh yes, do you want me to get started? Yes, please I've quit jobs that were not satisfactory. I quit my bakery business when I realized, after ten years of punching bread dough that it was never going to talk back to me and it was not in it was intellectually a desert. Let's see what else have I quit? I quit a church community, one time so yes, I'm a serial quicker and its work for me. What can I say, you're a gold medal quitter, you not just the cereal acquainted here champion so, but let me ask you this in retrospect, were all of these quits good? Yes, they were
I sit, so you really need to be like acquitting coach. Don't you? U need to travel around the world and tell people look at this situation. Why are you still in this? Why you stuck in this? Do you think that's a future, calling it years. Perhaps somebody just asked me that the other day about you know being accounts, learn. I said no, it's not something. I want to do as you just quit anyway. He you might be right. A quitter, never wins, and a winner, never quits nineteen, thirty, seven, a self help, pundit named holy in hill included. That phrase is very popular book. Think and grow rich hill was inspired in part by the rags to riches industrialist Andrew Carnegie. These days, the phrases an attributed to evince lombardy, the legendary tough football coach lineage
does make sense. Does, of course it takes tremendous amount of time and effort in The lack of a more scientific words stick to it if this to make any real progress in the world, but time and effort, and even stick to it. If this are now, an infinite supply. Remember the opportunity cost every hour. Every ounce of effort you spend here cannot be spent there. So let me Counter Napoleon Hills phrase with another one, not as well known something that Stella Adler, the great acting could choose to save your choice. talent for choosing the right path, right, project, the right job or passion or religion. That's where the treasure lies for the value lies, so If you realize that you made a wrong choice, If you ve, already sunk way too much cost into a wealth
just one word to say to you my friend quit. You see laughter and say you say say less and less thing they progress listeners on the mixed freakin, I'm afraid you, oh listener, wrote to us with a question quoth my wave has observed that in marriages where there is a son, there is less chance of the husband leaving the marriage. I wonder if that is true face. You ask. We find the answer Parents who have firstborn girls are significantly more likely to be divorced and so apparent
where is Mount noise cynically more likely to stay together? The first born daughter back that's coming up on the next episode trigonometry when Nell Reaganomics Radio is produced by W and my c and d no productions. This happened It was produced by Chris Neri. I staff includes David. Herman Borri, Lamb, Susie Lichtenberg and Chris Ban in with engineering help from dealing Keith Michael re Feel and Merit Jacob, you are more frequent, comics radio. You can subscribe to our podcast on Itunes or go to freak Stop com, real final,
lots of radio, a blog, the books and more Justice Council, Savage man come on, let's go if you're ready to push the boundaries of tomorrow, let the innovation experts at every riddle, aeronautical university, help you explore the possibilities again this year. You s news and will report has ranked our online fatuous degree programmes the number one in the nation and our distance learning technology with success at your fingertips. Flexible schedules personalized attention at expert faculty combined for a learning experience that open stores around the world find out more e r, a you don T, slash explore
Transcript generated on 2021-03-15.