You know the saying: a winner never quits and a quitter never wins. To which Freakonomics Radio says … Are you sure?
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me twenty one Nilsen report limitations applying? I like it is whatever you doing right now, I don't like stop so you can give your full attention. This radio show, I mean honestly radios the perfect medium for multitasking, less, maybe change or something. What I mean is stop whatever you're doing as in doing with your life, maybe your job. Maybe it's a relationship that curdled me please, dream project. You ve been working on so long. You can't remember what he lit up about in the first place. I want to encourage you to just quit. Please think about quitting. Why? Well, because everybody, us is always saying the opposite. Nothing is over until we decided is. was it
german ITALY's rolling its becomes so in green we don't even think about it. You know A litter, never wins a winner, never quits. I think when I hear people say that I think are you sure w and my see an ATM american public media. This is for economic radio, today the upside of quitting here's your host, Stevens Abner, so hang out with a lot of economists. I know you're envious, but there are two they love to talk about that will help us understand quitting one is called some costs,
other is opportunity. Cost sunk cost is about the past. It's the truth. Amer, money or sweat equity that you ve put into something which makes it hard to abandon opportunity cost is about the future, means that for our or dollar you spend on one thing: you're giving up opportunity to spend that our dollar and something else something that might make your life better. If only you weren't so worried about the some cost, only you could wait let's with the story of a woman will call Alley beckoned Eighteen, ninety, nine! When she was about twenty five alleys, life was already what most people would consider pretty successful, I was working for a fortune. five hundred large company? What kind of work were you doing? Industrial computer programming. What kind of man Who are you making them ass? twenty thousand dollars a year and
you were living where I was living in Texas, okay, so six years, a thousand dollars as a twenty five year living in Texas goes a pretty long way that sound, fresher cents per good and and and how did you like to spend your money generally and I don't like us twenty five year old women. Now here's an and I had a nice place to live in a decent Carter drive so and how did you like the job? I never dad I'm more of a social person and it requires long on periods of sitting at computer desk. Talking to nobody, I understand that you ended up quitting this job in your new pursuit. Did you have to take a big pay cut? Then you'd up headway better way better, like fifty percent more twice as much
here. I am more than three times as much were times as mass somewhere around their say around four times as much may be evenly that means were, you must have. That means you must have had to work with Four hours and you'd worked as a computer program. At any rate, let us Wallace a great about it. I had to work a lot less. You must have been very, very, very difficult or unplug work them now. I I enjoy my work and enjoy my free time and, of course, the extra money allow me to do a lot. things that I was unable to day before so till? What was this new work that you found the news other I found was, I was high and escort somewhere between three hundred fifty
hundred dollars an hour in retrospect. How do you feel about that decision back then to quit that solid, steady, fairly good, paying job for the life of hi and escort yeah, of course, always scary to leave behind something that some legit and and go with something that maybe isn't can you know, I really enjoyed it and I know that it was the right decision for me for me. I don't have. I don't have a problem with having sex with strangers that it was something that I felt was and and I enjoyed, I enjoyed my customers. I enjoyed the kindness and I enjoyed every part of it
right, so we're probably starting off on the wrong foot. Here I encourage you to think about quitting and the first person we hear from quite a perfectly good job to become a hooker, but hear me out my thesis it's simple in our zeal to tough things out to keep our nose to the grindstone nor zeal to win? We underestimate the upside of quitting now food, closer. Here I M a serial quitter I've quit a dream job with New York Times. I quit my childhood dream being a rock star. I've been quitter religion, we'll get to my quits later. First, here's some one who made headlines when he quit Well, I I decided it. This was long in coming. I I I was feeling more and more miserable about not seeing my keys. It was weighing on me to a greater and greater extent. I made the dust That, shortly after the election I would leave
and then one day I went into the oval office and explained the president that I just I just felt that I had no choice. He was very understanding about it. That's Robert Rice, he was the! U S, secretary of Labour during President Clinton's first term. He helped put in place the family and medical leave act. He raised the minimum wage on his watch. Unemployment fell below five percent, the lowest it had been in twenty years. It's hard to say how effective any one person and why it really is, but Time magazine named Rash, one of the ten best cabinet members of the twentieth century and then race quit but The question for me was well. How do I alert my
employees and the segment of the public that felt that they were relying on me in some way. How did I handle it publicly that it's a delicate matter? I decided that I would write and a bed for the New York Times. My personal family leave act. I had been responsible for implementing the family leave act that actually was past years before and it seems to me important to say too men as well as women that it is ok to leave your job here. As rice wrote, it was his dilemma quote, you love your job and you love your family and you desperately
more of both his wife and two teenage sons were back in Cambridge Massachusetts and he was well. He could have been anywhere nor the other Cabot officers go to wonderful locations round the world perish in London and Shanghai and elsewhere. I secretary of Labour, goes to two Leda, oh hi, or may be Saint Louis. If it's really a great day, the funny thing is no one believed. Race quit because he actually wanted to spend more time with his family. That's a ceo say when their booted, but people, especially male people, don't quit White House jobs too. Do that? But rice really meant it as he saw it, there was a big upside quitting. It was exactly the right move. I think if I had not done it, I would have regretted it all. My life would have spent any time I when I am in the boys than would have gone off to college off to their careers,
I just wouldn't have those years. At the same time, I think I was fully myself a little bit in thinking that young teenage boys would drop everything when their father, came home and say: oh god, it's great to have you, let's play no, they. They were very happy to have me there, but then they said no but Edward we're goin off of their friends, so I've kind of wood then trail around after them a little bit with my metaphorical tail between the legs and try to say will wouldn't you like to play it wouldn't have a habit going to a baseball game. Robert Rice quit, was for him a dream job running Department of Labor of the United States, but tell me the truth: You were a kid you dream of running the Department of Labour or me You had a dream, more like this. get a phone calls as how's. It feel to be the next member, the use and asked rose, and you just get it. It's a dream. Come true
so I ended up signing, got some money to pay for school and went straight majority. That's just in Humphreys, not long ago, He was considered one of the best young baseball players in the country, a big power hitter from a suburb of he's getting dry. by the hometown. Asters was especially sweet and through it money for education for later, but how This wasn't thinking about that. You had one goal to make the major so went off to Estralla merely team in Martens, build bridges and then more beans in Kentucky Ghana, Florida Jersey, but not you may have noticed Houston. He hit pretty well
but he heard his wrist and then his knee and in two thousand nine, at the rape age of twenty seven Humphreys quit baseball. Now only eleven percent of the kids who get drafted each year make the majors, but probably close, one hundred percent them think they will Humphreys even before he quit for good started back in school at a junior college in Texas, he wound up transferring to Columbia University where took a sociology course with the professor names, so dear think. Attach you may recognize that name. We wrote about his exploits in Freak Atomic says a grad student in Chicago vanquished embedded himself with a crack gang and got access to their finance. records. We wrote about of superfluous dynamics to he did and extensive survey of ST prostitutes. Guess what vent Tosh studying these days, I'm interested in putting for a number of reasons, not least of which is that it's hard for me, but I asked
it's just really really hard. The older you get, especially when you start identifying by yourself with a job. I say you actually looked in a fairly soon Matic empirical way at baseball players So I actually never thought I would be interested in looking at baseball from the standpoint of a job and one of my son It's just an humphreys used to play baseball for the use and asked rose organization and so my class. So as a sitting there in a classroom, I started thinking about all the issues. I'd, seen an independent baseball, an affiliate, a baseball, guys living checked, a Czech struggling with words, go back to school family life issues at home. And I thought if I could use some things, that we were learning and class talk to some of these guys I doubt whether the stories and and things that I was seeing and hearing will be reflected in the numbers. we followed a sample of the draft classic. Two thousand and one- and so that's about doubts ten years, and so we thought that would help us to understand what happens to these folks. Now,
this. This doesn't include immigrants because they came into the country and they didn't go through the draft to play ball. These are just the people who were out of her. School or who were in college and they were drafted by a major league team. I think one of the curious things that we find is how much ten years matter. So, if you take to people who grew up in the same certain answers. Let's say one play baseball in London: the person who plays baseball is making about forty percent less on average, ten years after they enter the game than the person who decides not to play baseball and who just wanted a regular career ice. What kind of background is typical for these american born players at your tracking? The average player probably looks like an upper middle class. Kitten who comes out a college or comes at a high school, and when you follow an upper middle class, kid for about seven to ten years. Their proper we're gonna make higher than
Gideon average income that probably gonna live in a neighborhood. That's relatively safe, they're gonna have a career. Now when you take the counterpart among the pull that was drafted, that median kid that kid looks like he's making about twenty two: twenty four thousand. dollars a year, which is not a lot of money, he's working, probably five to seven months, play baseball and then struggling to find part time. Work in the off season might be coaching might be doing. Some training might be working on a construction. site might be working in fast food, so severe. You went down to Camden not longer right to talk to some. These ballplayer step now Camden believes in the Atlantic. Leave, which is an independent league me this, no direct path to a big league team, a lot of guys at a time like this, they ve already in through the minor leagues in either top down and talent or aged outright. Most of the guys in the cabin river sharks are probably in their late twenties and so
They have actually had careers in the minor league system and it didn't happen for them, and so they come into the Atlantic leak. Thinking that there still gonna be able to make it just sort of Wanta be able to tell them. How did you do? You know that you're right, it's really unlikely that you're gonna make it, and the fact is that we learn that very few people, if any around them are telling them this so they're not really prepared to talk it accepts some particularly the sky, Noah Hall was really really interesting person, because he actually was thinking that this may be. The end its price I happen to have it, but I'm still gonna preparing we think the same way I would regardless and gives you never know you still never known at him in the back way back of a mine, it's still there had. I now I feel, like the just me sometimes I have. I have a good sign
this year. Whatever happens you never now I could get picked up and if I went off wherever I went could happen No, it is thirty. Four Noah has in plain sixteen season. Yes, including this one, when you look at em, you probably don't think that he is a baseball He looks like a running back. This is a guy who really looks like he's, never ever going to stop playing some guys. You see it. riding on the wall and I just try to ignore them. Hello outlets here and now I just and oh, I look back and say that I didn't give it everything I could and on, and I think I still I could still play another five ten, I beg so knows from Northern California, and he was raised by his mom a nurse and knowest
I have a wife Kelly and they have a lovely son I sail and Kelly and eyes their follow Noah around to what ever team he ends up playing for that season, and let me tell you he's play for a lotta teams over the years after Knowest practice, I had a chance to out to dinner call family, get to know them a little bit, I'm the one who's there like when he gets out. He has a good game and or when he has a bad game like I'm the one who I go through, that kind of closer with him. So strange. we found out when we spoke. A baseball players is that they have their own language for quitting they actually quit. They just don't call it that They don't call acquitting they don't colleague giving up, but this you know what I'm just going to shut. It down for a while, what does it mean to be a quitter? MA, am a shudder down You said this light
really do you ever have you ever wanted to tell, but yet so back to shut it down that area, especially in the last couple years. Yeah person last properly we really tired. We ve actually bottom So I understand Being his wife and trying to be supportive, I understand that it's gotta be really hard because I do know how much he loves the game. Well, that's particularly poignant, in my view, because you know baseball's when those rare sports that, because it doesn't have a clock, No game is ever out of reach him and you can be behind a thousand runs in the bottom length and theoretically, you can still come back and win. So that's part of the ethic of base was never never never quit quitting is not an option.
Accordingly, it is usually not an option, but do not just and is trying to make it easier for the players to to quit, enter to make that transition he's been workin on building an organization that that could help baseball players to get out baseball when the time is right and to join the that world, that the rest of us living where one year, twenty five playing an independent body making less than two thousand hours a month living off your parents, because you can't and so we sustain yourself like that at some point to say: look. I've got no degree. I had lesson associates degree at that point. So someone you yourself. I can't do this to myself. I can't do this to my parents and I can continue when I know there is unfair untapped potential to do other things, just in Humphreys stared. Into the dark part of his sunk costs all those years he spent pursuing his dream.
He made the big Quinn will hear more from suit your bank attach later in the show in a moment you what my number crunching for Economics- CO, authors, Steve Levin. In common with a bunch of ebbs crunching Navy seals. Thanks to Pennsylvania, lottery, scratch ass, pennsylvanians or scratching their way to find and with new, every month: big top rises and second chance, drawings, excitements, always in order so try, Pennsylvania, lottery, scratch, offer your ticket to fund and get yours. Did I keep on scratch? It must be eighteen or older. Please pay responsibly benefits older pennsylvanians every day. Brigham's radio, sponsored by wonder, is business movers podcast when Kosovo
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thousand wines, four thousand spirits in twenty five hundred years to choose from you- can always expect the unexpected what'll. It be today explore more in store or at total wine dot com, from W and Y see and eight p M american public media. This is for economics, radio, here's, your host, Stephen Governor so for ballplayers, like just in Humphreys Noah Hall, quitting their athletic dream is a long, painful process. Steve Levitt he's my free economics. Fred co author, an economist at the University of Chicago he advocates quitting fast, I try to talk Mcgrath students and acquitting all the time quitting grad school and gradual yeah. That's a lot of people. You make choices without lot information, and then you get new information and quitting is often the right thing to do. I try to talk. My kids in acquitting soccer
pace Bob, and I couldn't I mean I I've her head any shame and quitting acquit economic theory quit macro economic. I pretty much quit everything that I'm You do have this monster fail fast, fell quickly. Exactly so, I devoured say one of the single most important export aid for how I managed to succeed against all odds in the field of economics? It was by being a quicker that that ever since the beginning, my motto has been fail quickly. If I started with a hundred ideas, I'm lucky if two or three of those ideas will ever turned academic papers. One of my great skills as an economist has been to recognise the need to fail quickly and the willingness to jettison a project as soon as I realise that is likely to fail getting talked and acquitting grew, At school buyer hundred fifty five pound, professor is one thing: how about.
A Navy seal instructor. So how? week is considered to be the hardest week of the hardest military training in the world. That's Eric Gratings! He got a phd in politics from Oxford and then joined the Navy seals, he fought in Iraq. Afghans Stan and elsewhere, is now written a book called the heart and the fist, the education of a humanitarian, in the making of a Navy seal. Here's how great and remembers how weak it is a week of. Can tenuous military training during which most classes sleep for a total of two to five hours over the course of the entire week during how weak they have you running. four miles on in soft sand on the beach doing two mile ocean swims running the obstacle course they put in small team, and ask a land small rubber boats on jagged rocks in the middle of the night, all of these tasks which are designed to push people to their
physical, mental and emotional limit hell weak? useful way, for the Navy to determine who was fit to be a seal. The kind of where's need want to send to get Osama Bin Laden right and says the instructors hover over taunting. You practically begging me to quit, and the ban majority would quit before was over? That's the point you hear that structures come out on their bull horns and they say right. Gentlemen. This is only the beginning of the second night and what they did then Was the instructors took us out and they aligned us up on the beach and they had us watch as the sun was set and ass. The sun was setting the instructor started to get inside people's minds and they say can I give you the hardest and colder than the top was inside of your lives and they'd come over the bull horns and they say we just yet its older and more senior only at the beginning, and they really stuck they to get inside people's minds and I can remember the instructors and yet one point and
nobody quits right now will give you a hot coffee and donuts right, but everybody was freezing, so they set up this little incentive over there. If you, if you want to go over, the bell you can quit and I'll give you hot coffee and on in the whole idea. Is it the instructors? Really encourage they want everyone to succeed, but if people are going to quit, they want to encourage them. To quit. When you quit my the bell, you ring it three times tells everyone in your shot that you're done great and says there are two kinds of quitters ones to make excuses and the ones who are honest with himself here, I dont think it. Many people want to say to themselves that they quit. At the same time, we ve all failed in our lives. We ve all failed at different things in different ways and I think is a lot to be said for facing that failure square and the people who I know who were able to admit you know it wasn't the right thing for me,
at that time and I went over and I decided to quit- I decided to ring the bell. There really able to move on from their experience, and I do find you know, there's only shame in it. If you, if you feel shame, So what would you say if I told you there is evidence that quitting is good for you physiologically and psychologically good for you, people who are better able to let go when they experience unattainable goals. They have as experience, for example, less depressive symptoms, less negative aspect over time. They are have lower qualities or levels, and they have lower levels of systemic.
Information which is a marker of immune functioning and they develop fewer physical health problems. That's Karsten rush, no relation a robber race rash is a psychology professor concordant University in Montreal study of mainly adolescence. He and a colleague found that being able to abandon goals that are essentially unattainable is good for your health. Now, if they ask yourself what's unattainable, and what's not when just in Humphreys was eighteen years old. The major league seem pretty attainable by twenty five, not so much if I were put through hell, weak and attainable according to rush each of us
encounters an unattainable goal about once a year, unfortunately nobody's walking around with a big neon sign, urging us to quit. So there's a puzzle and we need your help in solving it. If persistence is a virtue generally, how is person to know when he or she under which circumstances he or she should quit or disengage yeah. That sets, I would say, the one million dollar question. I went went to struggle and when to quit- and I dont think that there is a general answer to this question. However, people can make to different mistakes in the regulation of their life. They can quit too early when they should have persisted or they can quit too late. O k no offense professor rash, but some very helpful. Sometimes you quit too early when you should have persisted, and sometimes even
this too long when you should have quit really that's all you ve got really. It's always got, which shows, if nothing else, what a true dilemma this is to quit. We're not to quit. Let me ask you this: Are you much of a quitter, I I am bad at creating. I really have a difficult time. I try to persist as much as possible. Maybe while others are phenomenon, is also interesting to me. Well, maybe I can help you. Why don't you try me something that you're involved in that year. That you think is a goal that may be unattainable and I'll. Try to talk into quitting well at this and I had have half. I can't think about something that is unattainable right now, but these things they pop up over time, so smoke do smoke by chance, yeah. Actually, I'm a smoker here.
I want it, you want to quit smoking, well yeah on some level, but on a different level. I enjoy it very much This conversation went on for a while of spare you the details. Let me just say this: either I am increase. happily unpersuaded were Karsten rush We really doesn't want to quit. Maybe both he says he wants to quiver really doesn't sound like it's like a bad O Henry story. The professor of quitting can't quit smoking. You can empathize can't you, there's something you really want to quit. You know you'll be healthier for it, but you can't
Try try and try you just can't until one day. Finally, you wake up, and you have this vision of what your life would be like. Without that thing in it, and it's not so terrible tell my first quit yeah. That's my. Ban, we were called the right profile started in college down in North Carolina reform. Sweet. bad at first, but we took it seriously kept at it. That's how I sound when I sing we worked hard at it because It was incredibly fund, but also because it was our dream I mean come on, who doesn't dream at some point of being aroused I, Sir John, when you?
that song which you didn't play on this recording, but you played the song out and how many times you think you're in that it plain the song in your life, I'd probably ever pure apparently fit fifty times it's John Worstered. We call them gesture, but is actual name is John. He was drunk awesome drummer, you might know his name. He went on to play with super trunk for years still plays with them and with the mountain goat Stew, other guys in the ban were Jeff Foster and TIM Fleming. We played all over the place. We may demo tat so we released a single and we got a man. team in New York City the same those who manage the replacements and the Del Fuego surveys that we love. Manages, brought us up to New York to play for the major record labels. Two months later, remember playing going up Fiji, bees in New York to play, they are a showcase show for some labels, one of which was arrested
I remember just in total dive c b g bees there was a table and on the table was a just a card that said reserved for Clive Davis do remember going up to two their office that trip and you may, when they, when he put everything on the phone briefly to tell us to sign with barrister, I'd yes at airmen. when that whenever any kind of walked away, we would go in. There looked through people's role, taxes to find the personal numbers of Carly, Simon and somebody I had remember like graver use them. We thought that was hilarious. Just telling them through this rolodex and find her Her number so it's true, Clive, The music industry giants signed us heirs to record. It was incredibly exciting, but also weird. We were this little envy, half pankey half country band doing things way, we did them, and now we moved to New
It was hard. Maybe we're just a bad fit with Eric. Did they wanted pop hits and we didn't seem to have him and the other thing is. I wasn't really showing one Iraq's as and go. We were pretty street lace, no drugs, not much drinking, but the whole lifestyle species a little bit more successful start, hang around with bigger bans, became less attractive to the idea of wanting to be famous, which seem really fun at first in the feel unsafe unhealthy for six years. This was all I want but one night I was sitting in my hotel room in Memphis working on some lyrics in my notebook, and I found In writing the words. What do I want? I thought about,
I don't really know anymore and then I wrote not this a couple weeks later: quit the band, we're playing some songs, and we could just tell you weren't. You were gonna moody and maybe something was wrong. We knew what was wrong. We knew that this might be where it part soon. I think we just we didn't, have felt that and we played something in, and I remember Jeff saying to you what like what's much wrong or what's your problem and I don't know exactly what you said, but I remember something to the effective one: do this anymore, the hardest part? being in the band wasn't just what I did. It was what I was like just in Humphreys in the other Balkan There's baseball is in just the thing you do it's your identity up house where he was tough. I agree. Eaved. I mourned a start over as a writer at that point.
they know much about economics. I'd never heard of this some cost fallacy, but by quitting something I'd put years of work into that's what I was fighting. against one of the most common examples as the Vietnam WAR, because it was and said that we ve invested too much to quit? Well, it's not I did I continue to invest if you feel it's a losing course of action. That's how Arcas Caesar psychology, professor at Ohio, State University, a sunk cost but what it sounds like time or money that you ve already spent the sunk cost fallacy is when you tell yourself that you can't quit something. Cause of all that time or money, the charity spent. We shouldn't fall for this fallacy, but we do it all the time Arcas and a colleague learn something that makes falling for the sunk cost fallacy even more embarrassing. It turns out that children don't fall for it or even animal your dogs that can have any rules like
I spent a lot of time at their location, waiting formed a feed me and when I'm on a waste time so I'll go back. There might, even, though, isn't very successful. humans? Have these other things they get in the way? What gets in the way, apparently we take a rule. We learn growing up to not be wasteful and we over apply it welders that ants that what we're working on actually can be rescued can be Hesitated making it sanction and trying to decide whether this is a truly last cause or not. I recognize is difficult decision, sometimes Not one of these things were its clearly one or the other, but after enough nay negative feedback, it should be more. Then I guess with my band. finally had enough negative feedback to quit. I'll tell you the truth. Some of the feedback,
still miss it was insanely fun and a part of me still wishes. I stuck it out at least a finished at first reading with Aristotle, but the bottom line. I am so glad I quit for me it was the right much as I miss music. Sometimes the upside of quitting for me meant that I got to lead a life more like the one that I envisioned remember our high and escort from the start of the show well she's back quitting again. Freak announced radio sponsored by better help online therapy in twenty twenty one, it's finally cool to talk about mental health, but therapy doesn't
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from W and Y see an ATM american public media. This is for economics, radio, here's, your host Stevens Abner, remember Alley the Texas woman who quick computer programming to become a high and escort sure you do at her peak. She was learning about three hundred thousand dollars a year. Now alley? Are you still working as an escort? Now I am. I just said to get out as they escort business. You know it was wonderful to me. I enjoyed a lot of money, but I don't regret quit, either an area our opportunity and when I in today. S Grover's, as I wasn't dating anybody. I just really will enjoy lies and be free and that's what I did, but I met somebody and- and we decided to gather
dad. You know that we wanted a lifestyle. They didn't include prostitution. So I'd, let it go and besides its enjoying life, in travelling in spending time with your companion. What else have you been doing? I went to school. I study economics and said Anne You know mostly I'm enjoying enjoying life. You know so I realise that alley. Isn't your typical prostitute! First, while she made a lot of money and on top of that she went back all the studies economics, so she gets opportunity caused so much so that when the time is right, she quit being a prostitute. So dear vanka fish, the sociologist will talk to invading baseball players. Forest has also been asking prostitutes about quitting, but first I asked him about something that he recently quit
He quit and administrative job that I had my university for a couple of years and I shall probably should have quit after a couple of days. Why'd you quit finally well I think I quit because I realized that dumb. I was no good at the job in a luckily I have a job as a professor and so I'm not in the ranks of the unemployed, like so many people who sometimes good jobs if they don't like. So I'm back to doing research, which I love, you heard me talking to Ali who kind of falls into that rear categories. You someone who did very very well and decided to if not cash out, necessarily stick to stop. But I understand you talk to some p
or sex workers, one they Maxine. I believe who doesn't see that as the way to go to talk me all over about Maxine and her attitude toward quitting. I should say that we're not using a real names of the women that were interviewed here but Maxine as were calling her a really curious person, because she really go. She goes against the lot of the stereotypes that we have about that of women in sex work. she's, been working as a sex workers for twenty two years, she laughs as she says you know, I don't know if I'm ever gonna quit. You know. I know I think about retiring. I know a many workers who are in their fifties, sixties, I met. and in her early seventies, who is still working and in our current society with tee, the tearing down of our infrastructures and our social security nets. All of us are gonna, be work here for a long time are a suitor. So there are those prostitutes
who do quit and I just wonder you know how does it happen? How do you if you want to go from sex work into the legitimate labour market? How do you go about principle? together, resonate right. Imagine you ve been a sex workers for year two years, three years, five years, and you have to account for that time. You have to account for what you ve done crystal do was. Is the code rector of the sex workers project that the urban Justice Centre in New York, city and actually one of the services the centre, provides a crystal help? Sex workers with is getting arrests made ready, so becomes the craving So we dig deep and I say what have you time somebody might say. Well, I used the wash cars with my uncle of the week as we all know that wasn't a job that was just a thing right animals. I know you know when I make the sounding You know that it's a job, it was a job you will working. You are shown up, you're doing a good job and nine times out of ten the persons as I that's lying, and I can't do that and have to orient them the same. Look, everybody is beefing up the rest.
so dealing with the resume is one thing, but when you leave sex work, you also faces issue about taking a huge pick up. They will probably never meet that kind of money. Again we spoke to someone Maya who is a former prostitute who now works as a Booker as a manager. She schedules and screens appointments for other sex workers into honours on by women violence of going back to sex serpent. I don't really want to get myself included in our even bucking. I don't really want a buck anymore, but with very, very hard to go from making three hundred dollars an hour to making twenty five dollars an hour which would be decent pay and the rural world so severe. You ve talked to baseball players who were reluctant to quit, even though they're not gonna make the maid.
Colleagues. You ve talked her sex workers, some of whom are reluctant to quit, but some of whom do a really really good job of it. For those who do a good job talk to me about how they prepare for it and maybe how what they do, we could all learn from a little bit. The first is that you know you gotta that bandaid off and do a quickly and the ones that are really successful and leaving a trade in which they thought that they were going to be doing for a long time or that they had to prepare for poor lot of ours in when they make their decision quickly. They do what they do pretty well. I think this idea of not looking back. I know It is a cliched expression, but that so many of the people that are able to move on just go forward and the next time I take a job. I'm gonna see I'm gonna see if, at the second day, I shouldn't be figuring out how to get the hell out of there.
I'm sure some of you as you listen to people talk about quitting prostitution, you're mine, jumps the timeline and you got bad and stop these from becoming prostitutes in the first place like watching a whore a movie, will you say, open the door, but these women did open that door. There are, however, some places to get people to quit before they have even started. We sent state vanished Psmith report of her marketplace. To get the details. How much do you like your job? If somebody offered you money to quit, how much would it take for you to do it? The shop is worth more than a million. Definitely, since I left ear very hard again end, but when she ran it, just like the wizard of OZ, when there are more city, that's, why
well that's Christina Gomes, and would you believe she's talking about a job, the pace, just a few bucks above minimum wage, the job as examples in mine shoe store that Amazon paid almost a billion dollars, foreign two thousand nine- I didn't Why training session in LAS Vegas? Everybody talk like that most of the thirty five both in my session were headed to the companies call Center, where thou earn about eleven dollars an hour dealing with customer questions and complaints, but as it trains these new hires Zappos also throws them a curve here's Marcella Gutierrez a trainer with Zappos member, how I said that we want this to be more than a job for you guys, we have to be eight career. We wanted to be a calling for everybody, I'm here to offer you three thousand dollars. If you decide This is not the right place for you, it's known around Zappos as the offer during trade.
when these new employees are already being paid. Zappos offers three thousand dollars to any new higher who wants to walk away from the job it's been going on for a few years and its guidance and press but secret or know what is the company thinking that question to companies CEO Tony shape, who masterminded the offer is really pudding employing in the past of due care more about money or due care more about this culture in the company, and if they care more about the easy money, then we probably aren't the right for them. Zappos talks about its culture a lot and she says that culture is enough to keep people from taking an offer anywhere else or Zappos offer to leave, and when I say culture, I am not just talking about free stowed in the bridegroom and casual Fridays as discovered on the company tour with Zaparos supervisor. Lauren Becker.
So. We ve entered the main building. We can I officially kick off our real tour. Every but he's wearing sneakers in tee shirts. There are sign up sheets for picnics and poker groups. conference, rooms are decorated in outer space and under the sea theme it looks like like the convergence of like seven different holiday is definitely does your shoe of everybody's desk in step with different knick knacks, our rapporteur, He's streamers asserts pretty crazy people are so excited to join the crazy. They turn down the free money out of the nearly two thousand people's apis trained. The company says only about thirty, have ever taken the offer Christina Gomes, is one of those people. Remember her the wizard of OZ, where in the Emerald City, that's what I feel like turns out a week after I talked with her Gomes, took the offer. I called her up to ask her what pulled the curtain back? It was
We call it like. You know it was my group, your head, and you know I gotta get comfortable, and then I thought I heard about a big fat. I did like about it, and so we broke up no man says the offer, wasn't the main reason she quit. She says The schedule Zappos gave her didn't work with her child care and another job. She has an apple but- I'll be given incentive is the offer. Three thousand dollars equals two months of busting, your hump call centre the fact almost When takes it just doesn't make sense, it does ever make sense to Dan Reality, a behavioral economist Duke who studies decisionmaking. He said That easy money is actually not so easy. The reason that this trick works is people spend ten days they become a part of the family. opposes all about making trainees feel like family they're happy hours,
scavenger hunts and team projects, and, after all that and before you ve actually started working, you get the offer it's a limited time thing and when it expires, that's when it's real power Kick since, as our alley doesn't go cognitive dissonance that says that if you acted in a certain way overtime you going to overly defy your behavior, so the next morning after you rejected the three thousand those you going to wake up into my goodness. I really must love these company. If I rejected this amount translation we like suffering for things we we like it so much that if we suffer for something we actually decide. We must love it area LISA, returning decent sororities work like this when they make Russia stand in the rain or run naked across campus. Turning indignity into allegiance militaries sports teams, religious cults, all use this tactic to combining our
tense desire to belong with our intense desire to justify our actions. The result, a group of employees who won't even quit if you pay them, let's marketplace reporter Stacy next Psmith Zappos does sound a bit like a religion, including a religion, is never simple. My parents were a pair of Brooklyn Jews who, before they met each other, both converted to roman catharsis as was in the mid nineteen forty is my parents- are in their twenties, as you can imagine this conversion didn't over, so well with their families. My dad's father, declared him dead, set. Shiver Fort never spoke to my father again, so I grew up in a very devout catholic family. The eighth Guess kid, and then, when I was in my twenties, I quit Catholicism went back to Judaism. My mother took it
but not nearly as hard as my dad's father took it when he converted anyway, I've always been pretty interested in religious quits. My name is Cinema Miller for along. I am the author of a new memoir called why I left the amish I'm again rich and I go to college and Talons State University in Stephenville Texas in right now, I'm also working on finishing up my book getting published. And what is your butt? call them run away. Amish girl. I wanted to speak to Emma being rich and Saloma Furlong, because quitting a religion like the amish seems especially traumatic with the religion, family and community. All mixed up. When you look back at the decision you made, which was a big one, quit your religious lifestyle and religious community talk to me about the price that you feel
you paid or the benefit that you gained. When I think of costs, I think of the things I mess and definitely the community atmosphere of knowing your place in the community is part of the costs. You know the church gatherings where they sing the good, the Amish ants and feeling like there's a sense of legacy. Almost in that, but the side of it? There have been, so many times
so many moments in my life when I knew that quitting the Amish was the right thing to do. One example was on May twenty ninth of nineteen eighty two when I walked into the church sanctuary at Chuck. Christ Church Presbyterian on the Redstone campus and saw my husband to be standing there enough in a blue tuxedo waiting for me to come up to the altar. That moment encapsulate at just how I was doing the right thing that was literally the happiest day, life so Emma if you could just described as briefly as long as you want kind of your childhood. What you know your family growing up and then getting to the point where you decided to leave and
Why and how that happened. My family used to make baskets and we would take them every Friday on and sell them at a little down close to busy highway and sometimes it would be me and my sister that we did a lot of things that we weren't supposed to do, but that was around fifteen was the time when I started thinking how will we be? If I would leave the omission? sitting there selling baskets. You see a lot of people coming. We used to locate Carson. Looking although different colours and try a pig which why we want, if we would ever leave Amish, did it feel like you became a a different person. Are you the same person who just needed a change of scenery, and I but I really want to know, is what was the cost to you of quitting the amish? What were the downsides?
And what were the upside Lilla downsides would be. Lady, the family in knowing that nothing gonna, be the same again when you go back home to visit and the website is yes, you are a different person. You become. to me I'll be king somebody else, which was good for me, How old are you now? Twenty three and Do you have regrets about leaving no zero, not at all Salome Furlong isn't fifties. She now lives in Massachusetts. Not long ago she did an informal survey of the amish community. Were she grew up in geology, County Ohio out of about twenty five
five hundred households. She estimates some one hundred and seventy individuals left the community, so quitting isn't common, but it's not like it never happens. Either. Furlong says that her father was mentally ill and violent, and that, ultimately, is what led her to leave. My life was so unbearable that the fear of the unknown was greater than my fear of the unknown. So for me it's it's a matter of. Are you happy the way you are
and, if not then quit what you do. It's that simple for me, you make it sound. So easy, I'm wondering if you quit other things in life. Besides the amish. Oh yes, do you want me to get started? Yes, please I've quit jobs that were not satisfactory. I quit my bakery business when I realized, after ten years of punching bread dough that it was never gonna talk back to me and it was not in it was intellectually a desert. Let's see what else have I quit? I quit a church community, one time so Yes, I'm a serial quicker and it's worked for me. What can I say: you're a gold medal, quitter you're, not just the cereal acquainted here champion so, but let me ask you this in retrospect, were all of these quits good. Yes, they were
I say so you really need to be like acquitting coach. Don't you even if you need to travel around the world and tell people look at this situation. Why are you still in this? Why you stuck in this? Do you think that's a future calling years. Perhaps somebody just asked me that the other day about you know of being a counselor, and I said no, it's not something I want to do as you just quit anyway, you might be right. a quitter, never wins, and a winner, never quits. In nineteen thirty, seven, a self help pundit named Napoleon Hill included. That phrase is very popular book think grow Rich Hill was inspired in part by the rags to riches industrialist Andrew Carnegie, these days, the phrases attributed to evince lombardy, the legendary tough football coach lineage.
And it does make sense, does of course it takes a tremendous amount of time and effort in for lack of a more scientific words. Stick to it if this to make any real progress in the world, but time and effort and even stick to it. If this are not an infinite supply, Remember the opportunity cost every hours. Every ounce of effort you spend here cannot be spent there so little. Counter Napoleon Hills phrase with another one. Not as well known something that Stella Adler, the great acting could choose to say your choice. Talent for choosing the right path, right, project, the right job or passion or religion. That's where the treasure lies. That's where the value lie. So if you realize that you ve made a wrong choice
you ve already sunk way too much cost into a wealth just one word to say to you. My friend quit. You say. Last June I say you say, Amsterdam say: lands and less alone thing Reagan, onyx radios, produced by W and Y see a pm. American public media and dug nor productions are show, is poor, by Chris, an eerie with help from Diana Win, Susie, Luxembourg, Ellen Horn and Peter cloudy calling camel. Is our executive producer? This episode? mixed by doing Keith with help from Michael Feel, special thanks to suit your bank attached just in Humphreys and Donald Cradle. If you want more economics. Radio. You can subscribe to our pie, passed at Itunes or good for economics, dot com,
you'll find lots of radio applaud the books, this council, each others. Certainly Manna Karla: let's go.
Transcript generated on 2021-03-17.