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sold nearly half a billion dollars worth of artworks by Motifs Picasso, Warhol and Alice. Neil luck number six, the oddest Neil Doktor fingers waiting room, the arches of which is having a retrospective that much vaunted than museum rise. We speak for this area work. We should start you at four hundred and fifty five hundred thousand at five hundred thousand five hundred fifty thousand. There is a good chance. You have not heard of Alice Neil Alexandria about six thousand at six hundred. Fifty thousand with enough, since you bid Neil was known for an intense and direct style of portraiture, but most of the people she painted weren't famous rich. Also Neil didn't like to call her paintings portraits. She called them pictures of people. There are also history at eight hundred and fifty thousand. nine hundred thousand dollars here's meal from an interview on fresh air in eighteen, eighty one describing what she was going for in a painting. What I wanna get is the person the site

guys and a feeling of spontaneity. I dont like things to look dull and worked over at nine hundred and fifty, which, like a million the Neil painting for sale to my doctor. Fingers waiting room is a picture of its a doctor's waiting room. The Christy's auction catalogued describes as

we'll be pickled. The arrangement of items including the well worn upholstered chair and a low table covered with colorful flowers. It measures fifty inches by thirty six inches oil on canvas running around two thousand brought into foreign thousand moment in five, which not pictured in doktor fingers. Waiting room is doctor finger which makes this and Alice Neil Painting is absent: Niels signature style of portraiture, and yet the demand is strong. What many six? On the thousand one minute? Seventy thousand doktor finger was Alice Niels own doktor. She made this painting in nineteen sixty six and it has apparently been in possession of the finger family ever since did

doktor fingers suggest that Neil paint his waiting room or was that meals idea. Why wasn't doktor finger in the painting? Did he get the painting in exchange for treating Neil or did he pay or for it if he paid how much? We don't know the answer to any of these questions, but tonight that doesn't seem to matter million eight hundred thousand coming, and I on two thousand, but we do know is it during her lifetime, Allison you'll never made much money from painting. She spent a good deal of her life on welfare and she died in nineteen. Eighty four and the proceeds from the sale of doktor fingers waiting room are going not to Alice Niels family but to the finger family, theridion two million one hundred thousand. As the auctioneer noted at the opening of the been Alice Neil Having a moment, the metropolitan The aim of our in New York had recently opened a full blown retrospective of her work.

Germany during two thousand and three hundred thousand by the time the gavel went down at Christy's. Doktor fingers waiting room had easily set a new sales record for an atlas: NEO painting German in five hundred thousand The buyer was anonymous bidding by telephone and selling Alex's telephone for two million five, so to five to peddle eighteen, eighty, six, how This happened. How did a painting by an artist who struggled most relief, sell for two half a million dollars nearly four decades after her death. That is a complicated question for most of her life. She painted incomplete obscurity, that's Phoebe Holbein, who wrote a biography of Alice Neil. It's called the art of not sitting pretty. She was devised two portraiture. She was a humanist. She climbed a term for self that she was an anarchic humanist meal was

worn in nineteen hundred just outside of Philadelphia and attended art school at the Philadelphia School of design for women during summer programme. She met a man she would marry. His name is Carlos and because the gomes- and he was from one of the richest families in Cuba, briefly lived in Havana and actually her. First solo and group exhibitions occurred in Cuba and that's Kelly bomb procurator at the Metropolitan museum she's one of leaders, who recently mounted the Alice Neil Retrospective. That moment as formative for the artists, shit Carlos, would leave the compound in which they live with his family to paint ordinary folks people of color streets of Havana, she was also, produce two left wing politics and philosophy, Alison Carlos, had a baby daughter and move back

to the? U S, settling in New York, but their daughter died from diphtheria. They had another daughter Carlos, took her to Cuba, with vague plans to meet up with Alice later in Paris, but never happened. Alice had a nervous breakdown in twice attempted suicide. She said some time, hospitalized back in Pennsylvania. Eventually, she returned to New York, Phoebe Holbein, again in the early thirties. She participated in the first outdoor Washington Square, fair and she already was causing scandals. She did this DE called, degenerate, Madonna and the catholic Church made her remove from her little stand outside the park, so she did I have some notoriety in the thirties and even in the forties meal was a devout practitioner of a style of painting called social realism. She was adept capturing everyday people caught up in everyday struggles

But social, real ism was being sidelined by a new movement, abstract expressionism painters like Jackson, Pollock Willem declining Mark Roscoe, whose work was considered more cerebral and that's why pushed Alice Neil into obscurity, I would say the forties and fifty's those with decades, when Neil was ignored, perhaps the most when she really suffered some neglect Kelly bomb again from the MID Part Museum. It was also the cold war and abstract. and was being instrumental Ized by Curators Museum and even the United States government inside centralized meaning weapon eyes, really abstract paintings or being exe. Where did to Europe and display as symbols of democracy capitalism. The, U S State Department and the CIA promoted, the exhibition of abstract expression is paintings around the world. The idea was to show that american artists, even the most avant garde

ones enjoyed a freedom that you can even dream about in a communist regime and Neil was a communist and had been a communist since nineteen, thirty five? How much did the political elite, men and the rise of abstract expressionism contribute to the stall of Alice Niels Career, it's hard to say whatever the case she stuck with her style of anarchic humanism, figurative painting, not strapped even as restyle, grew increasingly outdated. Ultimately, theirs any artist who doesn't want to be part of history and to be part of what is called the cannon that hit ways alluded Alice. Neil mule did get some recognition in the last twenty years of her life, but her work stilled itself from it wasn't until one thousand nine hundred and eighty nine five years after she died that one of her paintings even went up for auction, get featured a man,

of no known consequence named Robert Gilbert. It was made just a couple years after doktor fingers waiting room, Christy's auction house estimated the Gilbert Painting the cell for seven thousand to ten thousand dollars, but it didn't sell even for that it was what auction houses called body in which is arts for saying that. No one wanted it, but now here we are in twenty twenty one. The estimated price that Christy's put on doktor fingers waiting room with six hundred thousand two eight hundred thousand dollars, and you remember what happened. I'm selling Alex's telephone for two million five sword to five one thousand eight hundred and eighty six. It would be almost impossible for her to imagine, even in nineteen, eight thousand two hundred and eighty three, that paintings of hers would sell for those kinds of prices, so we ve been working with Alice Niels Estate.

For more than ten years. It's been done with it, spoke journey in a away at way how these things can play out, and that is David's Werner. He is one the most successful art dealers in the world. You can argue that a short the met does not impact the standing of Alice Neil. Now this shores of triumph fright incredible reviews and credible reception that will move prices. The Alice Neil story may be extra, but it's also what can happen in the art market. It's one of the strangest markets than I have ever seen that Canada Pendergast an economist who studies the art market. This very few people like index the market top to bottom, Amy CAP Alonso, who used to run contemporary art departments about Christy's and subsidies, so that Why I'm on the show? Is it because I'm one of the people can index the market? Can you define index the market in this case sure this, because

a hundred million? This one is sixty two sixty five million this. What is fifty this one's twenty two on a good day, Kappa Lotto Pendergast ends Werner or just a few of the smart people who will be our tour guides as we embark today on a three part series, the hidden side the art market? Now? Why do we need three episodes? Because, as you'll hear, nearly everything in the art market is hidden? There's this phrase that was coined by a friend a man called L, p M lies per minute. Will here from the ultimate taste makers in the art world, I'm Glenn Lowry and I'm the director of the Museum of Modern art, will ask artists how they feel about the art market. How does it make me feel it feels a little bit like a craft. I think the whole thing is vulgar and of course the economists is a bad. Investment will also try to see where things are heading next

I made a comment that everyone in the grandmother is going to be selling in if he's nap, and then I ended up making in ten ft of my grandmother and sold her in this first episode, we will look at what the art market is and is who the players are and we're in this market, unlike any other, the elbows are sharpest it's hard to offend me, but I'm just pointing out August bias. You have this is broken. mix, radio, the podcast but explores the hidden side of everything with your host Stephen, no

seems like every few months. There is a new record set for sale of contemporary art auction records shattered at Sotheby's Thursday, with they won, hunt and ten point. Five million dollar sale of this painting by Jean Michel Bosky ought not just paintings digital works too, including if teased or none fungible tokens. the Christy's auction for digital artist, people. The final been sixteen nine million dollars. Oh my god, so is that what we're talking about when we talk about the art market? Not really here again, is key this printer guests use an economist at the University of Chicago. It's the Tippit activity tip

globalized world, where very, very wealthy people like to collect contemporary art. Many people think the entire market is the typical activity, but there the point one percent people that we're talking about. Ok, that's good to know still. If the Tippit activity top of the market gets into eight and nine figure prices, the over art market must be massive right, the short answer is the art market is incredibly small. That's Magnus rush, another economists to studies, art market, all the They are combined all the galleries around the world than all the auction houses their revenue combined. Is sixty billion. U S dollars! That's put this into perspective. Fedex makes more

Then sixty billion dollars and days Fedex, you PS in so many other companies. So we really talking about an industry where a lot of people are involved, nobody's really making money. I've read there are a hundred thousand are advisers in the world. What's an art adviser in what value do they add? So adviser is almost everyone whose bodied art historian, doesn't know what to do. The role of an adviser is to have a client and navigate declined. HU the jungle of galleries and artist and point at artists that their clients should, by their probably more than a hundred thousand advise us, because everyone can call themselves and adviser. I probably know two thousand other advise us and of those

maybe if we are actually selling works. A rest he's been studying in writing about the art market. For years, his latest book is called how to become a successful artist. He has also taught art entrepreneurship at you. versus, including Yale. My students are mostly business students. There was us, What do you want to learn? They say: how can I make money in the marked? Ok, what's the short answer to that, you can't but because why is a bad investment? There are only a few artist that are really worth investing in Ninety nine point: nine percent of the artist that you see at galleries and exhibitions, value will never increase the art market has too much supply. meaning there way too many artists meeting very little demand, and yet, if

all one does is red the headlines. One would think the art market is the best its ever been, because we hear about record sales at the auction houses, Christie Sotheby's, even Philips, just that a mass record, what we seeing a two odd worlds, one is at the very top twenty artists are making forty percent of the value of the autumn Well, while everyone else is struggling same the gallery side. You have a few galleries that are dominating the art market, while all the The galleries of failing so Magnus, what is your mission? I liked me market, more transparent, so more people by art, the biggest problem in the well today. Is that not enough people are buying out two hundred years it was very common to have twenty two thirty artworks per household now look around You, how many artworks do you have at home? somehow lost our love for art. We joy, viewing it in museums, but we don't in buying it anymore

it is that we ve lost our love in part because most of us have been praised out. We lost it because who is made it incredibly difficult to buy out they establish this or of exclusivity. They established the story that art will go up in value. quite dramatically. So everyone is on the hunt for the next bus and Picasso, but they can't find it so they get lost. Why don't we I ask because we love it and we are supporting a community. We need to change that and I think we, bring that change by making got much more transparent. primary market where most of the odd works are sold is a complete black. box. When Wretch says the primary market, he means Galleries and dealers who tend to project not just exclusivity, but secrecy. So in a perfect scenario, and not only see past prices of an art work, but it also see,

hast ownership and so on, similar to when I go and look at an apartment in York. I see past mental prices as he comparable prices and so on. This is what I want to create for the outside world, so Magnus Rash created an app which he named madness. it meant to be a am for contemporary art. You point your phones, camera at a work of art in a gallery and the app gives you information on price ownership, etc. We gathered over one point: five million price points from galleries through crowd source. It could work perfectly well, but then the shutters down, because all the galleries complain. Galleys were happy, suddenly a buyer. who not only what the current prices, but he also could see previous prices and see that that particular out that the gallows is now asking fifteen K for didn't sell last year at an odd for four ten k, so on a scale of zero to ten

zero being inscrutable and ten being totally transparent. How would you rate the art market now Three, I hope by the end of my lifetime, we'll be at a seven one of the lopsided figure: rush cited has become even more lopsided lately, the top twenty artists now make up nearly fifty percent of the auction market for postwar in contemporary art If you look at galleries and dealers, fewer than five percent of them are responsible for more than fifty percent of the sales value to be fair. Alot of industries have this sort of top heavy imbalance, but, as we were told by just but everyone we spoke with for the series, the art market isn't like any other market. Why? There are alot of reason. Let's start with the question of whether it's actually a market at all, the economist tennis printed asked again. It is a market

in the sense that there is a mechanism to allocate goods that penned upon willingness to pay, but it's a very different market to most in the following sense, Most markets are anonymous. If I have the money to buy a Mercedes, I get the Mercedes. But that is not true for many many artists, it's good that gets assigned to those in the know, much of the info nation is held in very narrow social networks. Work is prey skin ways. I feel so strange relative to any other market, its also not like a regular market in that for most of us. If we buy some thing and we decided we don't like it. Does we course for this

I buy a car and I don't like it. I can tell us if I buy a house, and I don't like it- I can sell it. Unfortunately, that's very much not true for most art, it's the most illiquid markets that I've ever seen, and I think it has a very unfortunate side effect that only those p who can you know, spend twenty five thousand dollars and if it doesn't work doesn't work. I think the market structure itself helps to lead to what's. A very elite is good The art market is a fascinating sexy, intellectually compelling on a taxable unregulated global market, again is Amy kept Lazo, formerly of subsidies and Christy's auction houses. She recently cope founded a new firm, called art, intelligence, global focusing on asian markets. It's interesting to hear cap mulatto call the market unelectable, because

she, your member, told us she is one of the few people who can index it this, because, as a hundred million, this twenty two on a good day. So what determines the value of a given work of art? The work of art is worth whatever someone will pay for it until it resells, and then you know what is really worth. if you go to Santa FE in your shopping in some gallery in this way, this wonderful artists from Santa FE. This work is fifty thousand dollars you like. Well, she that's a lot of Tokyo, so do for forty five great you buy for forty five thousand dollars, then you go to an auction house and you say hey. I need to ensure this object. What do you think the values- and we say? Well, it's worth it. thousand dollars its villages has decorative value is kind of big and colorful, so will give you ate so well what happened there's a pricing model that seems to be used by galleries where, unless you price high collector I think this is not a great artist and happens. Is you walk? to a gallery? A painting is a hunt

thousand dollars it. Somebody you ve, never heard of before it'll problem not sell, but in the view of the art world, this is the only thing that I can do, or else the collector won't take it credibly and is the reason why the secondary market essentially discounts a lot of work so much when Cannas printed grass talks about the secondary art market means auction houses versus the primary market of gas reason: dealers, the secondary market, to a first approximation, doesnt function, even though its terrible good in the way that cars are you We'll houses are durable, even sneakers, these these are durable, so they're all sorts of components of the market to stop it from working and at the end of the day, mean that may, Ninety per cent of the earth and sole sits in a warehouse rather than actually being seen by somebody. The art market is in massive disruption. When you say

disruption. You mean an inflow of money. Massive amount well can be out flow also, but an huge influx of capitals come into the art market. A massive amount of private wealth accumulated over the last caught fifteen years, because after you're fourth house and third boats is where you gonna turn it so the story, the cap, Lotto imprinted S, town, is again a story of two markets. A handful of contemporary artists, like Gerhard Richter, enjoy Michel Basque Yacht. You you could Sama Jeff Coon's they sell for tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars to wealthy collectors. Who will put the work in one of them many homes or maybe in a warehouse other buyers and would be buyers along with most artists constitute the lesser art market whose pray

these are distorted by the massive dollars flowing toward the upper market, and where does that leave museums in the old days, wealthy benefactors loved to build museums, to give the public a look their art collections? A modern billionaire is much more likely to keep their collection. Private here is met, curator Kelly Bomb. Well, even the man has been praised out. the market when it comes to certain Artis? Could you name a few I'd? Rather not we could probably get them if we to ensure that the shirt there's one more thing that makes the art market so unusual. This has to do with the nature of the objects being bought and sold. Amy CAP Lotto again there not merely appear commodity market like they're, very special, unique things but can you talk about the value of? I guess you'd call it desire. I mean it is literally some paint on a canvas,

came down from Mars. You take a minute that cannot be right. Eighty five million dollars, there's just no way well, first, I'd pull back and just say: modern capitalism is predicated on the idea that you would take one barometer, and transform it into a another, more valuable material and commodified and sell it so we'll take some timber and turn it into furniture and sell it for many multiples. The price is similarly, we take paint canvas graphite paper, whatever it is. something and turn it into something more valuable, sir. What kind of well past the stage of analyzing? Why that hunk of cloth with pain on it is worth so much right, but the multiple of Picasso versus the multiple of most furniture at least is prey Apples, darn, she's, yes well, but works of art. A unique, largely furniture is something usually made in addition are put in production. So while it can be that rarefied in special and even customized in a certain way, it's not quite the same thing in it. Arguably doesn't have the same specific cultural residents that a certain kind of eighty five minute harp.

It could have been primarily a one off object that we're trading. That again, is the galleries, David's, Werner, high and artworks, ultimately very limited. So you really dealing was very, very specific objects that a particular histories where we have two been shown who owns them. What's the development of this artist, Korea, it's really unique set of circumstances that drives what we do coming up after the break. What were the circumstances that brought the Alice Neil out of obscurity and into the Metropole Museum of our? What's the financial relationship, between a museum gallery and an artist and what tricks do dealers used to get their artists work into museum, its understandable? Why galleries want to do that? But it's not in my opinion. the best way to

bring an artist into a collection, the hidden side of the art market part one continues read after this. Freedom through EU sponsored by shudder stock weather, creating websites, social posts or videos. You need a wide range of content, make it stand out that can include images, footage music and what, if you could access all that with one convenient subscription? Now you can with shutters. Flax, all the content, you need to bring your ideas to life on one platform with one simple plan: one hundred percent of what you're looking for right at your fingertips with one hundred percent shudder stock visit, shudder, stock, dot, com, slash, blacks. Today, to learn more. economics. Radio is sponsored by forest watches or is watches known for their quality time pieces. Since nineteen o four introduces the caliber for her

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at the Knocker dot io, that's a an eighty h, a dot earlier we met the University of Chicago economist, Kenneth Pendergast Canada, weird irish name? He mostly studies labour markets, but he's also written quite a bit on the art market I come from a family where I grew up with art and got into the young age. Because of this interest, Pendergast has a secondary duty on campus. He is essentially the chief curator of the contemporary art collection at the University of Chicago's Booth School of business, and you might wonder why does a business school have its own? Our collection, the central feature, of higher education is the use of different types of languages to transmit information. What we in the classroom uses statistics it uses.

wraps. It uses mathematics, and I see these as nothing more than languages that sometimes are better than the written word to get an idea across, and I think what we're to do, which the hour collection is think of. Art is simply a language that there's something about the world and who you competing against as a buyer. Its bo, museums and high level collectors, and there very notable thing. The art world has a view. a clear hierarchy where it chooses Who would like the works to end up with it, gal arrest, who has an artist who you feel is promising the way in which you typically will try to cause that artists career to develop is by placing, in what seen as the best collections give me, the hierarchy, well, Mamma is at the top. The museum of modern ART in New York is at the very top of the list Do you? say your name and what you do please

Glenn Lowry and I'm the director of the Museum of modern art. So we are doing these episodes the art market. What do you think when you hear that phrase it into it agree is a museum like Moma, a part of the art market, if you're in the museum world, the art market, runs parallel and sometimes intersects with what we do, but we are not as focused on the art get, as many might think, we are aware of it. Of course we participate in it because we often acquire works of art or but close to our institutions require works of art that ultimately come to us as gifts, but the way in which the art market opera It's in the way in which we operate are different. What is the relationship? between you, a museum director at Mamma and big galleries? Like a David's Werner, let's say I try to go

to the galleries on a very regular basis. Generally, once a week I like to know who's, darling. I d like to hear from galleries why they brought on an artist or what it is about it exhibition that they think is particularly important, so our colleagues in the larger enterprise. If you want to look at it that way of the art world, what ways are your incentives aligned with theirs and in what ways are they perhaps at cross purposes, become a line, for instance, when we want to do an exhibition of an artist that they represent. They can become tangled when we're after a work of art and Another entity is equally after that work of art, the responsible the Gower, as is clearly to do the best he or she can or the artist he or she represents first financially

but also in terms of reputation and we become perhaps and in that equation, when it comes to reputation, we do not create financial value. We make in Sudan Please create financial value by me. Getting a larger public aware of an artist importance but devalue, weak The aid is art, historical importance, its ability to explain why an artist merits intense interest, Why that interest is rewarded over taught? Let's put it care for a moment. Glenn Lowry is so well regarded that the music of modern ART board rescinded their policy requiring retirement at each sixty five in order to keep Lowery in charge through twenty twenty five. He is known not just for his leadership and taste and is our scholarship, but also, as you can tell when he speaks for

diplomacy when Lowery says that moment is perhaps important when it comes to the reputation of an artist. That's a bit like thing that the Pope is perhaps important when it comes to steering the catholic church when he says that Moma may, incidentally, create financial value when it acquires and artists. Well, yes, you'd better believe they do and when Lowery says the art market runs parallel to his museum and sometimes enter. sets, let's take a look at that intersection and how it affects not just the reputation of an artist but their long term financial value here again Is the galleries David's Werner? We are selling art of costs in the primary and secondary market, but you also have to think of us. His talent Hence this Werner represents many of the best known contemporary artists in the world, and he has gone. there is in New York, London, Paris and Hong Kong.

We are very often the exclusive managers behind careers of artists that I'm Be very, very shy. Will you just want to be in the studio? Make work, so we have to get that work out into the world. We have to place it in museums, get them shows across the globe. audience tell this story in many different ways. I've read that last year you brought in around eight hundred million dollars across the board a few years ago twin. Seventeen above five hundred ml First, all those numbers in the ball Parker. They pretty accurate data ballpark for twenty seventeen that works out to an average price of about three and fifty thousand dollars per peace. So I'm guessing that if we were to do an x ray of the people who buy a galleries like yours, we're talking not just the one percent. The one percent of the one percent is that pretty much the case. That's absolutely correct. So let's say that a random.

and walked into one of your galleries, David. Let's say I'm that Randal and I see a painting on the wall and I say wow. I love that I'd like to have that in my house. How much does it cost? Sir? And let's pretendedst? You know that average price of three and fifty thousand dollars, and then I say, ok, Mr Werner, I have my checkbook I'd like to buy it. What happens now? good question, because that happens so rarely have to step back for a second. I would want to know who you are so that transaction would not be instantaneous. I would be, let's get to know each other, and we will find common ground people that we know are that you collected that I would know and we would become friend they become applying. As chemist Pendergast told us earlier. One thing that sets the art market apart from most other markets, is that most markets are essentially anatomy.

if I have the money to buy a Mercedes, I get the Mercedes, but If your I walk into a major art gallery, but first of all, there are likely new prices to be seen, garroters cause to keep a price list available for anyone to peruse Amy CAP Lotto again, I suppose in some drawer to avoid being snake doubt summon keep surprise us in a drawer That's just really not how Howard is marketed nor sold and when David's Werner says that we should get to know each other to find out the people that we both know in what are I already own? Well, let's go back, Mercedes dealership? So you pick out the model? You won't take a test. Dr perhaps you ve been settled on the price and now the dealer says: let's get to know each other. But where do you live? What's your name

like what sort of cars do your neighbors, Dr? What are their cars? Do you own, or have you owned, what sort of cars that your parents own? What do you plan to do with this car? After done with it? Do you plan to sell it or perhaps donated to an institution? And if so, what sort of institution do you happen to be friendly with or related to? Anyone on the board of that institution? That kind of getting to know you doesn't happen for cars for contemporary art is sometimes does. It is true that dealers want to fetch an appropriate price for their artists work and dealers typically receive fifty percent commissions. They ve got a strong incentive there.

at the same time, they're trying to protect against speculators, people who buy artwork in the hopes of reselling it later for a profit. If I buy a three hundred and fifty thousand dollars painting from David Zwirner, there is a chance if the artist is hot enough, but in short time, painting will be worth three and a half million dollars some day, maybe even thirty five million dollars and if I sell it at auction that money goes to me, not the galleries and certainly not the artist. So that's one concern a galleries has when deciding who to sell to, but as David's Werner told us, there's another concern the artist. long term reputation if Werner cells coveted peace to some random billionaire, that peace may never be seen by the public, one of the best ways to burnish the reputation of an

This is to get their work shown in museums when we, the new show we always give priority to museums, that's just a given. The problem is that museum budgets are often no competition for a billion years, so what you do, then you talk to the museum and there is the so called museum discount right. So the museum we'll get special terms. So what kind of Dust How does a museum get? Let's say it's Mamma. You know that's a tough question to answer in public, because every negotiation is different or hate. Amy Camelot so again offered a living artists for want of preference, their work or to a museum because they're trying to build their legacy and reputation like I'm really want this to go to broker music.

and I'll take Dempsey percent less just to know that it's there. I'm usually relieved for our work to go into a museum collection in that is, shall below a self a young and successful painter who makes large scale. Collages is now part of this community of other works that are meant to reflect the sergeant kind of history. for the workers and their museum. It's there and the thorny issue of me wondering: will this art work be resold? Will this our work will be moved to some other parts of the world? Why we see it again? It can be in some storage and the assessment of a museum, but even seen over. It is and David's Werner again, if one of my sales folks or curative calls me and we have an engagement with a museum that will be the first thing we try to figure out, because that is really what makes. the difference for the art is being in the Museum of Modern art or not makes a huge difference. So I recently

heard of a gallery. Foreign up and coming artist in New York was already changed galleries once in the last few months, because she went from warm to very hot, very fast and the new gallery said they would sell a piece by this artist if the buyer were to first agree to buy another piece by that artists and get it placed in a good museum as a donation you know. That's done a lot, I personally don't like it and we don't do it. It's our job as Galloway's to get artworks off our artists into institutions and that's always so difficult institutions very often don't have the funds. So you need private money to help for purchase to work. Anna quicker way to do. It is if you have a long waiting lists, and you have a high demand artists to say: do somebody really wants one century have to buy two one? Is yours and the other one you gift I always am unaware of that, because it creates a strange dynamic around the work you sold frankly to the collector, something that we like to do

I dont know how widespread it is, but it certainly out their Glenn Lowery again from Moma, even though we are usually in the we here is not just the museum of modern art. Museums are occasionally the beneficiary. I think most of us are not that comfortable with it understandable. Why galleries want to do that? But it's not in my in the best way to bring an artist into a collection in a way. That a sure is that that artists work will live vibrancy within the collection. You could argue that both Mary, Ann David's, Werner Lowery, from the museum side Werner from the gallery side. They both have the luxury of staking out the high moral ground they both enjoy a sterling reputation and have plenty of resources to back it up elsewhere in World there is much talk of shady behaviors self dealing.

and double dealing, broken promises and baked invoices, a slippery stream of hype and hyperbole in service of inflating a given artists valuations for a gallery last Werner. However, any short term loss discounting the sale of artwork to museum? Is likely more than recaptured in the long run, torments being a great example, Luke Timmins is a belgian painter and Sixtys. His work often explores the human relationship with history. When we started working with him, his prices were eight thousand dollars now pay cell in the primary market over two million dollars, so this has been a very nice state, development over many years- and it's been also very logical, unity, Scott a major shows he has the institutional support that words price development. Can you tell me David how

You first form a relationship with an artist lake twins and how that relationship evolves overtime. So, before I opened my gallery, there was a very important exhibition in Europe in ninety ninety two document, or big group show that happens in Custom Germany every five years, and it used to be an amazing way to serve a talent, so No, I was going to open a gallery. There's really excited to go to castle and and was confronted with a group of small, really really enigmatic paintings. These paintings really struck me. And it's a walk to the further. I was in the room which works by Garrett Richter, the great german monster- and I thought, my god these paintings are great, but the pain so just saw a really great too, and I've never heard of Luke torment. So I make my way to aunt work with Luke lives and work then and now, and ultimately, to get down on my knees to beg him to join

my gallery because he was already somewhat other art star at that point, and I didn't have a gallery the sole three subsequent visits. But what happened is really what should happen? You should see the work for fall in love with the work that meet the artist and know that there is a chemistry now to this day, understand you, dont have a contract with Luke or any artist. Is it true that is true? All artist representations are based on handshakes, believe it or not. Once you start working with an artist, you really have to look out for what this artists needs and ones at any given time, not just in the beginning when it's easy, The first few shores are usually the ones where large audience finds an artist, but even more so when you hit the middle of the Korea when things- maybe I'm not as exciting and when it takes more hard work to find new audience and tell him hardest story, we really are in it for the law.

All when we work with an artist artists to state another example of where being in it for the long haul. The american painter Alice Neil, that new about Alice Neil of Cause, but I heard about to increasingly from other artists artist are really a point of reference. You really have to listen to what they have to say. Then we search out the estate, and we realise that there's this incredible voice in american painting that's been assent. They overlooked and she's, been overlooked, because she was a woman in a century where women artist really had a hard time. But, more importantly, she was a figurative artists in a century where it was all about american male abstraction, ultimately Alice Neil, as we noted earlier, painted in relative obscurity. For most of my life, it was until she was an early sixties that she finally had

more gallery representation from the well regarded Graham gallery over the last couple. Decades of Niels Life, Graham put on eight shows of her work and got it included in several museum shows she gave Some minor celebrity, including a couple appearances on the tomato with Johnny Carson, but you paid quite a few of you subjects. mood. The result is that the third request? Oh, oh, I wonder if you would like to Alice Neel very much enjoyed the attention she got toward the end of her career, but when she died in nineteen eighty four her work still wasn't in demand should be thrilled if she got even a few hundred dollars for a painting. So what happened

how did a dead and largely unknown artist turn into such a hot commodity, that a painting of her doctors, waiting room sold this year for two and a half million dollars here again is the economist Magnus Rush, the states that have been long forgotten getting picked up by gallery we have the financial power and tell the estate owners hey a we gonna help increase. The value of the artist and give the artist defined a recognition that she read he deserves so they use their content. To museums, two courageous to writers and to buyers as well and stuff by giving a solar sure too, that artist, often First, solar show in many years big rediscovery of the works and so on. The galleries in this case was David's Werner. By the time he took on Niels Estate in two thousand and nine, the

Oh you of her paintings had already been rising on the auction market. Now Werner began to heavily promote Niels work, a few small exhibitions at first and then a major show in twenty seventeen. It all change help mouths. Did this incredible shown our gallery called Uptown Hilton? All's is a Pulitzer Prize Winning critic and curator with the Alice Neil show curated at this Werner gallery. He really took her place. Turn Harlem amongst your friends, fellow intellectuals, fellow hardest. Hilton all is black his curetting a show at this Werner gallery about a white artist who had lived in Harlem, began to change the atlas. Neo Calculus, what nobody realized is said. She really paid that the world that we live in. She was truly inclusive in her thinking.

She would very early on paint a gay couple. She would painted transgender person, she panted her friends and neighbors folks of color he'll tunnels, curated regulatory, show really cheap changed our understanding of the artist and that's Kelly bomb. Remember her. She is one of the curators at the Metropolitan Museum who would go on to mount the Alice Neil Retrospective there, I asked bomb what it was about: meals, work and the moment in history that led the met to put on the show. There are so many so many things, first of all, Alice Neil had been on the tipps of so many living artists tongues for quite a while, and it was becoming too got to read or hear an interview and not have the name Alice Neil appear as a sir, of inspiration or influence. We and seen enough Alice kneel to suggest that she was relevant important

But we haven't seen too much which suggested that there is real To create a really interesting show Additionally, diversity, equity, accessible. E inclusion, Justice Writ large were issue that we were all thinking about and there had been a rise arising contemporary art of projects that address social justice directly, and that was absolutely true of Alice NEO. She was an advocate for social justice, your entire life and find there had not been a large Alice NEO retrospective in the city of New York for almost two decades, and the almost nil retrospective at the man was very large. when a major museum devotes or five galleries- and primo galleries, to a single artist. That's a statement and that's a statement made about Alice Neil butts

Ho Ban, who wrote the biography of Alice Neil, that books publisher by the way, was David's Werner books. The mat is considered America's Lou a world famous iconic museum. The solo show like that since artist as somebody who will go down for the ages. Somebody who's work will never be forgotten, and you know, as we are now handily in the twenty first century and looking at each other in trying to understand each other, better, their societies, that's helping us right, David's, Werner again, the such humanist approach to society and to who we are, and its fascinating and cheese. Now, rightfully one of the great great voices and great portraiture, but also great kind of You know me historian, so was the Alice Neil show at lament too degree as Werner production or creation, not at all, that's a hundred percent the met. Doing that show I mean that's a great call, you wait.

for when you do what I do you wait for call from the met we are interested in doing and Alice Neil Show, so to go back to the money part from It went away from the art part the mat, having a huge show of an artist to this you happened represent- is fantastic news long term for David's Werner. Yes, of course, you look at objective criteria that impact the standing of an artist right. I think we had her auction record just a couple weeks ago. so what would you say, a median alice? Your painting would have sold for the safe three years ago, and maybe three years from now, I may take a rain check on that question. That's to speculative for me. You want to give me a rough percentage. I could tell you where we're coming. I want to tell you where we're going paintings by Neil were sold You know between five hundred thousand dollars

in the million dollars a few years ago, and now we're selling pictures between two and three million dollars. So there has been a clear upward trend, but again a very logical trend, very defendable trend, and yet no matter how logical and defendable it is, there is no guarantee that trend continues, write em in ten years now Alice Neil could be worth two hundred thousand or twenty million There's no way of knowing is sir. I think that such it, where the gallery is important, what can you do, though, as the galleries to nurture a reputation? That's already at that I want to now we child to museums and collectors other parts of the world. I allus Neil. I would love to present to work in our Hong Kong gallery. She's not really been presented in Asia and there are major shorts,

on the horizon in Europe. You really looking at a career globally and you see what you can do to spread the good work. I think about all the things that had to go right for a relatively obscure Long dead, painter named Alice kneel to become one of the biggest rising stars in contemporary art, now think about all the artists living and dead. For whom those things don't happen, coming up time on the show what it's like for living artists to navigate the strange waters of the art market did she Jack dream of an artist? Is such a bizarre track and it doesn't follow any logic and how does it feel to see your work sold at auction for a hundred times what you sold it for Originally, artists cease to sometimes call me and say. I can't believe you showing my work. I just sold bad for fifty thousand hours. As I listen I can put it.

Found some other artists who sold the work. Fifty thousand dollars in today's worth, two thousand dollars. That's the second episode in our three parts series, the hidden side of the art market next week until then take care of yourself, and if you can, someone else do freedom with radio produced by sticker and ran, but radio we can be reached at radio at free, comics, dot com and our entire archive is available free on any podcast cast. This episode was produced by Morgan Levy. We had research, help from New York Bout it and Alina common in additional help from Jeremy Johnston. Our staff also includes Allison Craig Low Gregg Ribbon cyclopean ski marriage, Luke Ryan Kelly, immaterial Jasmine, cleaner Eleanor Osborne and Jacob Clemente. Our theme song is MR fortune by the hitchhikers. All the other music was composed by Luis Kara. If you like, show or any other show in the freedoms radio network. Please recommend it to your friends,

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