Aisle upon aisle of fresh produce, cheap meat, and sugary cereal — a delicious embodiment of free-market capitalism, right? Not quite. The supermarket was in fact the endpoint of the U.S. government’s battle for agricultural abundance against the U.S.S.R. Our farm policies were built to dominate, not necessarily to nourish — and we are still living with the consequences.
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We would love to take some listener questions so send us we're radio at for economics that com please use subject line q and a red Email is fine, but if you want to attach a voice memo, that's fine too now on to today's episode We are revisiting an episode we made last year about the history of an american institution that has become even more important during the covert nineteen pandemic, You stand, but I mean in just a few minutes of your joy when you think about propaganda campaigns, I'm guessing you dont, think this yeah. I say you re safe by the way
After one in world war, two came the cold war between the: U S and the USSR, it featured space race. An arms race and afar race. Things like chicken breeding and hybrid corn took a outsize and somewhat surprising role in? U S propaganda in the early nineteenth fifties, farms race had an obvious winter. We clearly one the abundance war, but the America, victory, was to some degree a pyrrhic victory whose after effects are still being felt, economists- who don't do U S? Agricultural policy are horrified, what they see in terms of distorting markets today on I'm afraid you how a sprawling system of agriculture, technology, economic policy and political will came to life in the supermarket. Tell me who could possibly afford to buy food,
play such as this, but this is just an ordinary food market, competition and big volume. Prices down in impossible Frank stature and done their productions. This is frequently ex radio casket explores the inside of everything. Here's your home Stephen definite the supermarket is so ubiquitous today. That is hard to imagine the world without it. But, of course, Such a time did exist, there's somebody about when supermarkets actually started, but usually we we penitent around nineteen. Thirty, that's Shane Hamilton! he's. An american historian who teaches at the University of York in England the author
of Supermarket USA, food and power in the cold war farms race was, supermarket a purely american invention. I argue yes, the easy answer is that the first declared supermarket was built in the It states. I think the broader answer is that what makes a supermarket a supermarket is the and dust real agriculture system that enables the affordability of mass produced The predecessor of the supermarket was the dry goods store, so you didn't have fresh protein. Didn't necessarily have milk or meat or a bakery in house. That's what a supermarket dead as it put off all those food items and often many other things you could get auto parts. You can get your shoes shined in early supermarkets, it was a kind of ones.
Shopping in service emporium. Another big difference. Supermarkets were self serve in a dry goods shop, you'd ask a clerk for something and they'd fetch it in a supermarket. You could ogle the meat and produce yourself even handle it and then put it in your basket. The supermarket chains, Piggly Wigley, is credited with having pioneered the self service retail model. It is still operating today in seventeen states, but the biggest supermarket chains from much The twentyth century was Ain t the great Inland and Pacific Tech company. An p, as of the nineteen forties, was the world's largest retailer by any measure both
sales volume by number of outlets. In so far, between one thousand nine hundred and forty six and one thousand nine hundred and fifty four in the US, the share of food bought in supermarkets rose from twenty eight percent to forty eight percent by one thousand. Nine hundred and sixty three, that number isn't nearly seventy percent AP had so much market power that the Department of Justice went after it for anti competitive practices. This was an interesting development, considering the The! U S, government played such a significant role in the creation of supermarkets. In the first place, the original goal had been to use the supermarkets to drive down the cost of food for urban consumers. The thus becomes a majority urban issued by, I think nineteen, twenty and theirs lot of anxiety among leaders, political leaders, thought leaders about whether or not you S Agricole There is going to be productive enough to feed this growing urban population. That is an excellent tool.
Until recently was a senior economists at the USDA, the? U S, department of Agriculture established in eighteen, sixty two had a long history of funding and conducting scientific research you know a lot of the seed development and livestock breeding. One good example: would be the research done in the eighteen nineties on animal disease, on bovine tuberculosis, for example, to identify the causes of those diseases and then to develop ways to treat that there was also research on developing new kinds of machinery that would be less beyond the ground or less damaging to across the. U S: DA's promotion of agriculture went even further than farm machinery and animal breeding. There was a need. Or better transportation from the farms to the cities. So
who s day, I had a unit that did engineering research on the best road materials and and road construction methods. There were electrification. Administration was part of the new deal USDA, the private electrical companies didn't see a profit in expanding out into rural areas, and so that was taken on by USDA, but perhaps the biggest changes to american agriculture we're mechanization and automation. If I may say so, I lived through the structural transformation of the agricultural economy. That's Peter Timber, an economist too used to teach at Harvard I'm a retired professor, have worked on agriculture and food policy. Poverty reduction, economic development firm. While over fifty years now- and before that timber was a farm boy in Ohio, he worked for the tip top
canning factory, which was founded by his great grandfather and the factories tomato farm. I'm old enough to remember, when we hand picked all of our competitors and we hand peeled all of our tomatoes, but that of course changed when I was in great schooler junior high school. If we could pack forty or fifty thousand cases of canned tomatoes and product in a year that was a pretty successful year. By the time I had graduated from graduate school, the company was putting out a million cases a year. This was thanks in large part to a mechanical tomato harvester, which came out of the engineering school at the University of California Davis. With the help of federal research money, it had taken years to get the harvester right, mostly because they first had to get the tomato right breeding a new variety that could withstand the rough
treatment of mechanical harvester. I remember when we bought or, firstly, those a huge expense and it just revolutionized our operation. I was just in a microcosm of what turned out to be very general trends in the the general trend, The general trends could best be characterized as high volume and standardized agriculture. If you describe U S, agriculture policy as aggressive in earlier decades, then in the Cold war era. It was pretty much on steroids, and this wasn't just about feeding growing. U S, population! This had a political thrust meant to show the Soviet Union and the rest of the world. Just how mighty? U S was chain Hamilton? Again, I don't mean to deny the power.
And the might of these weapons systems that were deployed in the space race and all that. But fundamentally this was contest to demonstrate that either communism were capitalism was a superior political economic system. After spat, when the United States was trying to understand why it was falling behind in the space race were away it was falling behind in the space raise many. The commentator said the problem is we're not funding basic research so after one. Fifty seven, the budgets of not only organizations like the National Science Foundation, but also what specific government departments like the Department of Agriculture there buddy It's for research increase dramatically on the theory that this how the United States would win the cold war by doing the best science. That is order. Wolf I'm a writer, editor and historian. Mostly, this book is called freedoms, laboratory the cold war struggle for the soul of science.
And it really looks at the ways that science, as an idea, became a tool for propaganda in the cold war, actually on the american side there's this idea that you can change hearts and minds and you can establish a climate of opinion, then makes people more willing to accept the american way of life as the better choice. One of the things that made America so great its agricultural system things like chicken breeding and hybrid corn took a size and somewhat surprising role in U S propaganda in the early nineteenth fifties, but there was attention the United States wanted to promote person exchanges, scientific and technical exchanges as a way to promote american values, but at the same time it was very very nervous that by doing so, we will lose the advantages that it had particularly ingrained production in nineteen. Fifty five, the? U S, government unexpectedly, had its hand force. The newspaper editor in Iowa named Lawrence off. I invited Khrushchev too
the United States, to see the wonders of american agriculture. That's Nikita Khrushchev, then, leader of the Soviet Union, and so much to everyone's shock. Krista said yes, no crystal didn't come himself until one thousand nine hundred and fifty nine, but in nineteen fifty five, a group of twelve soviet agricultural its came to the United States to see the wonders of american agriculture. They saw her contour farming work. They saw the wonders of hybrid corn. They saw the chicken breeders chicken in the nineteen twenties was pounds per pound as expensive as lobster by the nineteen sixty is. It was so cheap, It was quickly becoming America's most popular meet. What can you tell us about the chicken of tomorrow project, the chicken of tomorrow. Really the chicken of tomorrow is the chicken of today. In that way, eating the kind of genetic progeny of the region. EL chicken of tomorrow? What it was?
was a contest to produce the most efficient chicken using genetic techniques. Basically, and it not only had to be an efficient chicken but very heavy breasts very light. Colored feather so there when plucked. It would look good under cellophane and then later plastic packaging and the birds had to be a relatively disease resistant so that they could be put in intensive rearing operations without dying to quickly this agricultural bounty. Those heavy breasted, cheap chickens. Millions of cases of tomatoes- all this was a good candidate for the: U S, propaganda machine, the! U S! Information agency were searching for concrete forms of propaganda to display America's wealth enter. One of the most concrete forms of display imaginable the supermarket the soup
The market is not just a retail box. Would actually be and point of an industrial agriculture supply chain, a supermarket cannot exist without the inputs of mass, but foods the farms race was about. How do you get the food from industrially productive, technologically sophisticated farms to you know this, this display of London's in the display was really crucial since the citizen living under communism wouldn't have access to a Piggly, wigley or an MP, the? U S, government brought the supermarket to the Communists the nineteen fifty seven supermarket USA Exhibit in Zagreb Yugoslavia, which was then a communist country with a fully operational ten thousand Square Foot american supermarket filled with from. And foods and breakfast cereals and and everything else they airlifted
the fresh produce from the U S, because it s the yugoslavian protest was attractive enough. It was about this display of affordable abundance available to american consumers for anyone didn't get the message. There was also a sign touting quote the knowledge of science and technology available to this age. In other words, if you like our breakfast cereal, just think how much like the rest of our capitalism there were, quite a few people who thought that if you showed that american consumers could access affordable food, you know strawberries in December, without having to wait in line that that might actually caused the whole communist system to collapse. The supermarket USA exhibit moved tremendously popular more than one million Yugoslavs visited some received free bags of american food. Immediately after seeing it Marshall Tito. The leader of the country's time ordered the whole thing to be purchased and it was bought
wholesale from the United States, exhibitors and used as a model. They hired a consultant from an Atlanta supermarket firm outcome, overrun somehow how to build their own chain, a socialist markets, so Yugoslavia, along with other european countries started. Building american style supermarkets, which creed it is a new buyers for processed and frozen foods from America. This did not, however, led to a wider embrace of american culture, much less the downfall of communism, but just a couple years later, the Americans took another shot this time in Moscow, at the American National exhibition. They built a split level, ranch style American House, it's kitchen stocked with food.
And the latest labour saving appliances, the message was clear: the american economy, based in free market capitalism, was capable of producing things that the Soviets, command and control economy simply could the exhibition opening was attended by Nikita Khrushchev and then U S! Vice President Richard Nixon, they engaged in what came to be known as the kitchen debate must not be afraid of I did nothing to fear. The time has when ideas get us, Strange Richard Nixon, and Nikita Khrushchev, air two of the most explicit users of this cold war farms raise language. Khrushchev declared that by
Our producing the? U S and per capita meat milk production that would be the the soviet equivalent of hitting american capitalism with a torpedo. Nick then retorted that if there is going to be a torpedo fired, it was gonna, be a by America's farmers and ranchers to which the where's ranchers, listening to a speech, applauded very mightily. A few months. Afterward Khrushchev finally visited the U S and he got to see for himself the sprawling corn fields of Iowa, but this was of little help to the soviet farmers back home. The fact is, they were on able to modernize soviet agriculture with the economic structure and strategy that they were following the economist Peter Timber. Again, it was not
a technological problem. It was a management and marketing problem. There was a total divorce between what consumers wanted and what the managers of the big state farms were told to produce. Timber was part of a World bank team that visited the Soviet Union. He saw for himself their agricultural system. And supermarkets- oh gosh, I mean the shells were empty it, just as it was just weird. We stayed at who would struggle, with basic foods. They knew it could be better than that. Christian. Church agencies in places like that who would struggle just to come up with basic foods, they knew it could be better than that Khrushchev, despite his bravado, was ultimately forced to buy imported green from the? U S, some historians would argue that this was one of the crucial factors that led to his downfall that it was just embarrassed
on the world stage for the Soviet Union. You know this vast country with enormous agricultural resources having to turn to its arch enemy for Green Khrushchev. Successor Laney Brezhnev continued the policy of importing food from the? U S, to cover domestic shortfall, If the two countries had been normal trading partners, this would have been a big deal, but they weren't normal trading partners. They were cold war adversaries, the global icons of capitalism in communism, and it was becoming clear which system would prevail, at least on the food front. Peter timorous, final analysis: it was a fundamentally field strategy for agriculture that brought down the Soviet Union. They can grow enough and they didn't go the right things and there were no price signals telling you what expensive and what's cheap, they were wasted. A law
of what they were producing on the land it never got into the supermarkets timber was actually in Moscow when the Soviet Union collapsed The neat thing is: I have a passport going in stamps I'll be at union, but my passport coming out the exits they up is Russia. People were so optimistic about what was going to happen, they knew that american supermarkets were a miracle. They had seen it on television. That point had clearly gotten through at least to everybody, that I talked to and so it seems as though the mighty supermarket may indeed have played a role in America's cold war victory. I mean this is central to the the kind of lie really of the supermarket as a weapon. The historian Shane Hamilton again so
this market is upheld. As this you know effectively missile this concrete consumer weapon against the claims of communism. Ets on this idea that supermarkets are producing this affordability just through the workings of supply and demand that you know it's unfettered markets that are somehow making food so affordable for american consumers. Whether reality is for everything: from milk to beef, to green, to processed foods of all kinds. There is massive government, investment in the science and technology that enables them? but activity of american farms from fertilizer there's two frozen food processes to distribution and so forth. And that's all raised the images that is just the supermarket itself. That is the source of abundance. So when
describe it like that is certainly I mean you used. The word lie in you and you you talk about the hidden components and you make it certainly sound nefarious, but couldn't you argued that You know the role of a government is to invest in science and technology, that old benefit private industry and ultimately, the citizenry I really don't have a problem with the: U S: government investment in science and technology and encouraging you no more productivity. The concern is with. They know that being disguised as a free market when it's not particularly for I mean taking that to a propaganda level and attacking another country for not having free markets. We insist, implicit s red you may or may not be as disturbed. His shame Hamilton is by what he calls the duplicity of the? U S, government for promoting the suit remark as an emblem of free market capitalism. To me, the big,
action. Is this: what was the ultimate cost of the supermarket victory? What are the economic and political? go and health consequences of more than a hundred years of agriculture policy that encouraged industrialization standardization and low prices. That's coming up right after this. Economics, radio sponsored by a vast vast the global leader in cyber security trusted by over four hundred and thirty five million users, a vast, has privacy solutions Keep your identity and actions, hidden security solutions. Stop malware fishing and virus attacks and performance, Dancing solutions to clean up and speed up your devices of asked empowers you to feel safe, private more confident online. Do what do you, want to do in your connected life, shop, work and browse confidently
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the? U S, one, the so called funds race. With an industrial approached agriculture. There was heavily influenced by government policy and funding. What were the long term results of that victory figure that out. We need to go back, but a hundred years. That's on the advice of an effort and the? U S. Department of agriculture, economist we ve been hearing from everyone thinks there's one key event that really drove: U S: food policy and that is production, Greece's around World war, one farmers expanded there, production to meet work, time goals and there were some price support during that time. Provided incentives for increased, especially wheat and pork, and some of these other staple commodities, but there was no real planning for the aftermath after the increase demand and the price support centre set up for war, go away and left
number of farmers who had in good faith, developed larger farms and more productive farms with very low prices, after the war, farmers were producing more food than was necessary. Then came the great depression. The economist Peter Timber I mean demand collapsed, but agricultural productivity did not and what TAT meant was prices just collapsed and so that so hungrily set the mind frame for: U S: agricultural policy, that's when we see the beginning of real price policies for agriculture. Price policies for agriculture would take many forms over the ensuing decades from crop insurance to loans and direct
events in many more now. You can understand why the government would want to make agriculture financially viable and remove some uncertainty and national food supply is a pretty important thing. One key policy tool: the government used was a price the port system, guaranteeing farmers a certain minimum price for a specific crop and specific time. There was an idea of something called parity, which was that the price should be such that it would give farmers the same purchasing power and compare person to workers and others in the economy that they had had before world where one- and that was the guideline for what those poor I support levels ought to be, but if you increase the price being paid without, limiting the amount being produced. Well, one of the problems with this is that it leads to a large surplus. This would leave the federal government to buy and store excess produce in the early nineteenth thirties. When U S, government guaranteed
farmers, zero dollars and eighty cents per bushel of wheat government wound up buying and storing more than two hundred and fifty million bushels. These things all take place in context of their own times, having policies that and away to increase of farm incomes in the nineteen thirty's, I think, would be seen as a good thing, but there also consequences of that over time. As they get embedded. If every or why the USDA is old, food pyramid, the diagram of rock.
Ended servings of different foods. Why the biggest category at the bottom, the pyramid was bred: cereal, race and pasta. Well, the! U S had an awful lot of all those foods and if you a as the USDA instructed, there is a good chance you put on a few pounds. You can't think about nutrition without thinking about agriculture policy. And U S! Agriculture came to be driven by financial incentives, incentives that, given how government funding often works, were and always entirely sense You know, economists, who don't do U S? Agricultural policy are usually horrified by what they see in terms
of distorting markets. Picking, ok, corn, soybeans wheat. You guys get big subsidies, apples, grapes, fresh fruits and vegetables you're on your own dairy incredibly regulated both federally and at the state level, just a young, just a mass just an awful mess with price. Karen these for certain crops and the resultant glut of supply. The government sometimes paid farmers the plant fewer crops, but even this wasn't fully successful. So we have control Also on how much can you plant on an acre but not on how much Europe building on the acres. You are planting. There's a huge boom lots of new chemicals fertilizers machinery that make farms more productive? so, even though we're trying to control by reducing the acreage, there continues to be increasing production and
surpluses don't go down, but am effluent says this was a problem. The USDA wasn't all that unhappy about problem solving on the scientific and technical, engineering side tends to run on his own track can be seen as a positive outcome. I don't think there's ever a point at which policy side is saying: oh, stop. Providing good science and better agricultural product this is so we don't have any surpluses, because when you do that way, you're saying is then: stop this economic development solving problems and making farming more. Efficient, are still seen as good projects to continue the fact that they also create these surpluses is sort of a different track of problems that the foreign policy that is trying to figure out solutions to one solution was to use surplus green for animal feed chain, hammer
then again, this massive surpluses of cheap corn, and later soybeans encourages the rise of industrial meat production. Concentrated animal production, livestock feeding operations, where you know That's that's enabled by cheap green production, industrial meat production fuelled by cheap green men cheap meat to help to explain how the? U S became one, the world's biggest consumers of meat per capita. Today, more than thirty percent of corn, more than fifty percent of soybeans grown in the? U S goes towards breeding cattle and other livestock, but even that left a lot of surplus production. So what happened? High fructose corn syrup yeah? Do you? Ve got surplus corn and you ve got a demand for
easy convenient sweetener in the food sector, and that was just a perfect storm that Sirop Revolutionise is food processing because, instead of a powdery sweet thing, it's liquid and liquids are way easier to handle and food processing if I had only one thing to say about the impact of our agricultural programmes, on what you see in the supermarket and subsequent health issues. Out of the diet, I would have said the fact that we use so much. I fructose corn syrup. That's the example of how things can go badly wrong, even if well intended. I mean I don't get me started on ethanol, because that's the next step in reducing the surpluses, but
I don't wanna go there. The rise in agricultural productivity tended to favour larger, more industrial farms. It didn't hurt that they often received the government price support, designed for smaller family farms. As you can imagine, this began to put a lot of small farms out of business. We didn't manage that process very well, but I think just basic economic forces would have pushed us in that direction. It just wouldn't have pushed us, far Peter tumor. You will recall, grew up working on the tomato farm and cannery, founded by his great grandfather. You also recall when the tip top canning company got there. First mechanical tomato harvester richest revolutionized, our operation when the mechanical harvester was introduced, there were around
Five thousand tomato growers in the? U S: within five years, forty four hundred had gone out of business that family farm and canning factory made the cut and they lasted for decades until earlier this year, in fact, but between one thousand nine hundred and forty and one thousand nine hundred and sixty nine three four million american farmers and their families stopped farming quite a few historians suggest that you know this all out, pushed to productivity, killed the family farm, effectively, Sheen Hamilton again and hard to deny that, on the other hand, we don't apply the same kind of metrics too in our industrial manufacturing, where similar lay there's been massive: U S: government investment in science and technology to support economic growth in productivity, I'm sympathetic, to those who, in it is overall and that positive gain. However, we note the pain is real, Peter Timber,
says this. Massive consolidation on the production side was driven by what was happening on the consumption side, the growth of supermarket chains. Supermarkets were able to manage the supply chains all the way back to farmers, but they didn't want little tiny farce. Just one supplier, please it's just way too complicated to contract with fifty or a hundred that has changed. Then the name sure of production right down at the level of tip top canning company and in how we would be able to provide the key regular quality and supply and low price. That a Walmart or Kroger, or a public's, would need em Homer really came in and looked at, the the of american supermarkets and saw inefficiencies everywhere. What Walmart did was built on
Successful model of general merchandise sales with hyper efficient logistics Dixon distribution brought that into the sea market industry and really shook things up. I used to ask my class I'm talking one thousand nine hundred and eighty five. Where is the world's largest supercomputer and the correct answer was at set the Pentagon. Okay, where is the world's second largest supercomputer Bentonville Arkansas Home of Walmart? They use that computer to track it free single item on every single Walmart shelf, that information technology is what revolutionized food marketing and it was pretty much
invented by Walmart. This technology would spread across the world affecting not just the demand side, supermarkets, but the agriculture supply side. So the? U S! Experience is formative and informative for two reasons: one: U S: universities, training, so many egg economy must food sires food policy, people to go back to other countries that the? U S model is pretty well in greened, intellectually. But the other thing, of course, is the biological and mechanical technologies mostly came out of the United States. Another consequence of the scaling up of merit agriculture, more standardization, unless variety so apples in there.
Early twentieth, century consumers and say New York state would have access to literally hundreds of varieties. Even in mass retail markets by the mid term, century is down to just a handful and in a red, delicious, really dominates the whole market and apples became remarkably taste less by the mid twentieth century in us, a certain quality it's where given up in order to gain that advantage of price and abundance, woe We clearly one the the food wars in terms of some Why and abundance we won the abundance war. What we maybe in the process of losing, is of the health and quality dimensions going forward.
I think today were certainly witnessing perhaps especially among millennials, an attempt to kind of reconfigured values, We know what are you actually looking for when you go to a supermarket? It's not just price price. Does contain all relevant information for many choppers in contemporary supermarket, so the cost pollution of inner degraded animal welfare that are currently not being borne by either producers or consumers of food would have to be borne. If we had worried much much more about the key already of farm land of sustainability, about environmental side effects from fertilisation on corn in a we got a dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico that is directly attributable to putting fertilizer on corn up in the MID West Ike accused
my brothers of poisoning, the Gulf of Mexico and simple. What are we gonna? Do we have to get high yields? There was the sense of everybody. Being trapped in an old paradigm, and now, how do we break out of that? I hate to say over the current government seems to be trying to Take us back to the old paradigm rather than a more sustained more environmentally friendly. Let's make agriculture of doom we're on organic and in an unnatural processes that doesn't seem to be the political driver right now, but it has to come back weaned. We really. We have to make agriculture green, which is a strange. Strange thing to say Peter Dimmer. Seen a lot of change, the farming business of his lifetime and
who's. Maybe he'll see the change he's hoping for a nap, but it's going to be hard to break the status quo, at least in terms of how financial incentives dry, food production prince the Trump administration please billions of dollars of tariffs on chinese imports. China responded with their own tariffs on imported american crops like soybeans alfalfa in hay. American crop exports to China fell dramatically, as did, of course, farmers revenues. Last year, the? U S, government announced they put together a welfare package deal as farmers because of the tariffs, the price tag. Sixteen billion dollars is passed
The USDA announced another sixteen billion dollar package for farmers matters tied to the corona virus. That's it for this week's Joe and now, as promised, here's a preview of the latest addition to the friggin, I'm afraid, even at work people I mostly admire with Steve, It will they view on August twenty first, but you can be among the very first people to subscribe, just use whatever Pakistan use for economics. Radio he won't? Take you long to figure out that I'm not mere regular interviewer, unnumbered polish, never ticket, but I just differently than other people in our Stephen donor. In that's my for economics friend and cooperate Steve Levin he's an economist. Receive Chicago. I've worked for two decades: the edge
economic studying strange phenomena. He would be aviary weird circumstances, but now, there's really try something different I've gotten the interested in trying to figure out how to leave the world a better place? And that's how I spend my days now? Not writing academic papers lead, is now ready. Start is unpack guest, it's called people. I mostly admire, and one of the things I hope to do at this pod- cast peace to get these interesting, smart, insightful, offbeat people to offer advice, not necessarily about their expertise in their profession, but about general things in life, sometimes going to give greater vice. Sometimes you gonna give terrible advice and I think that's part of the funding. Why should you listen to the show? I will say listen to this show because I think we're going to have some of the most interesting people come on talk and some of them are going to be household names. In somebody
I'm gonna, be people that you would never hear of otherwise, for instance, the old I'm jeopardy champion can Jennings just don't neglect the thing about you that makes you will and one of the saddest look agents in publishing, Suzanne Gluck, who happens to be levied agent in mine. Collins hired Mckinsey to consult on how to be more. Profitable, and they said just published the best sellers. If we only know the perfect good for me someone who's not only wildly intelligent, but also little bit off the rails. I was in this terrible psychological state, whereas was claustrophobic. Sick really how to go about them and we're all throwing up, left and right and then
Finally, finally, finally, finally, cameras role, someone who thinks differently and he doesn't care at all how the world perceives him or her whenever crime flying in an area that fish farms is look at, those be safely wholesome, and I try to ask them all the questions I couldn't ever asked in a regular conversation without seeming really rude, but because I'm on a podcast I can ask him: whatever alone, will you come about their job. It doesn't seem, like you, have a lot of the trade make so many good computer program. You have some insight into what makes you such acquitted never framed it. The way you do about it like that. In your face description of quitter on but mostly admire your here. How someone who grew up in a village in Diana went on to run the Yale School of management? I thought that my mother, everyday she'd, up with their work
to be open to new experiences and people, because one does not know as one two versus one side where I helpful relationship of form where an inside will come from and how a public intellectual Steven pinker pixies battles. Human conflict is inevitable. We don't I'll walk, seen things, but Do manage my controversy portfolio carefully you'll hear lever in conversation with some of the most interesting unorthodox people around from actresses to athletes. Authors to inventors once a year, idea to skip all with your mouth always idea, it's just so damn boring. Otherwise what you did was fearless and really ruthless in a way that I'm not accustomed to. I think my superpowers, then I'm an emotional influence, or so, if I'm excited about something I can get other people excited about it. People,
I mostly admire is part of the freedom of trade and network in the use and August twenty first here, the first few episodes right here on frequent material subscribe now to people I mostly admire and sticker apple pod casts or wherever you listen impact. So one thing I know for sure It is no Stephen Taverner. I forget a lot of things, but one Somebody unusual who says things to me that I have never thought before who changed my mind? I never forget those people financed radio is produced teacher and W productions, this episode is produced by met Hickey. Our staff also includes Allison, Craig Olive Green ribbon that weapons Daphne Chan married Duke and Cornwallis Wallace in turn,
his immature help on this episode from Nellie Osborne. Her theme song is Mr Fortune but hitchhikers. All the other music was closed. By really scared, you can get free demonstrating on any podcast app. If you want ire back catalogue, use the strap or go to economics not come where we also publish transcripts insurance. As always, thanks for listening. Teacher.
Transcript generated on 2020-08-06.