Believe it or not, and I think you will we're in the middle of a revolution, a global revolution. Technology Google information revolution and a lot of really powerful people don't like it one bit, we have witnessed the collapse of state and institutions from corporations to systems of government the elite. Have lost control. Journalists have lost power, academics have lost power and control the old status quo is under attack or destroyed and happening all over the world and the new status quo, is chaotic and aggressive every day it seems like there's another battle being fought the pub. revolt against the elite class has shattered every domain of authority. We don't try

just any institution anymore, and that's not just an american thing. Now the elites are scrambling. To maintain power. There, flourished under the industrial society but now, as a result of the information revolution, it has been gutted of its legitimacy. No signs of recovery, only a power grab or something else. It is to be defined the elites want us to believe that our issues are economic, better, yet social oh economic, because That's even more divisive, a better diversion, but real issues is with the elites themselves. The real problem is corruption. in all of it has happened as a result of the internet, not the corruption, but the exposure and the working with one another, but it can no longer hide their failures and their corruption. Nor Can they silence people easily?

when we finally saw the elites for who they really are. We were really kind of disgusted, both the Republicans and the Democrats by their lack of morality. It's why fifty percent of the public's as animal on me either party the pub has become Ungovernable at least from the elites perspective Martin Gurry was a media analysed for the CIA, as all of this was unfolding early the twenty first century. He saw this shift up close and he You're stands media theory, I think at a higher level than most academics, he best them in practical knowledge, and he has the fact message. that America needs to understand the understanding, the new american oligarchy or whatever it is That is on the other side of this thing,

I found him by reading his book the revolt of the public and the crisis of authority in the new millennium foreshadowed. All of this it was written in twenty sixteen, but I find it extraordinarily timely It is a very fair book, a balanced book and one that I think everyone who's trying to figure out. What's coming that, you read it. I wanted to go through a little bit of the book with him, but also expand and go beyond that. I think this book is real a crucial for everyone to read. He was way ahead of his time. and you don't want to miss a minute of this podcast, because we talk about the reasons why all the chaos is enfolding around us. What art and says, relates directly to what's happening in your life and his greatest concern for the future of liberal democracy.

Is something that should concern all of us. In fact, it should make us break out in the cold sweat, because it's real we are seeing now and if it grows to an uncontrollable strength. God help us all. Please welcome Martin hurry, Martin. It is rare for me to read a book, that I can't say the political agenda as I don't think there is one with you I I don't know much about the author except He really seems open to being wrong and open to just learn. Vat is rare.

Today can't thank you enough. I wish I would have read your book in twenty sixteen when it first came out, because it is answered so many questions on what happening in our world right now First welcome. Let me let me I want a first get. You start with the premise of the book so disk. I bid for anybody who hasn't read it yet. It was kind of a journey. So let me just gonna tell you a story about the book to be because it very much encapsulate sad I was a and analyse global media see aid? Possibly the least sexy job. You could ever see a right, but At the moment it turned out to be most significant perch broke in the world to be sitting at because I had been

sleep dealing with very, very small volumes reformation at those dazed open media was a tiny, tiny trickle, and I was there when suddenly this digital earthquake, center say Palo Alto, suddenly propel this sooner me of information in volumes aware unprecedented in human history. I want to I want to stop here, because I want a ride. I read what you actually right cause. It is profound the way you put this more information was generated in two thousand one, then all of the previous existence of our species on earth. In fact, Two thousand one doubled the previous total two thousand to double the amount present in two thousand one. That is a step. sounding correct, so what we are going through. I've been saying for a while that

we're going through a revolution like the industrial revolution, this one is just compressed not over a hundred years, but a spirit of like ten or twenty years, and Everything seems like it's coming apart at the seams. This was a really important place to start talk about. That and then continue with these story talk about what this information explosion means. Right, I mean it's. It's there doubling every year has continued So, if you charted It really looks like a Jaguar, the way it looks like a tsunami, so I speak a lot about the information sent me that's a metaphor and away, but when you look at the charred it look let us allow me like this thing. They just keeps rising ay ay.

Don't do this early agree with you in the sense that its being compressed, I think we are in the very early stages of it. The greatest single were only see. The very initial shock us trauma that a collision of this old hierarchical. The twentieth century top down. I talk, you listen the world with its enormous information salami and and the implications that it has for the legitimacy and the authority of every institution, including all our democratic institutions, so I was sitting there watching this happen with many others a CIA. of the first thing, we responded to was, would you responded, do? Which was the mackerel this. Vast? We're used we're looking

used to looking at France has been mainly to newspapers. Certainly is an enormous range of stuff, albeit very red original, but who are they? People wondered why Papa we even cite them in the arab world in Egypt, in the education media was a tiny little thing all mark all the time right, sir. Suddenly you get all these and serious boring so he got it, isn't blogger blog. the English because at a time that there was any software Veronica and blogging and we're hilarious, our all against the system, I mean- and you are reading this guy. What is this right? So the first word is overtaken by the sizes who know me, but so they must be able to really think about much. It see effects they have matter. information has effects, itching, his mighty changes, the furniture the drama of societies. Of the behavior is gonna, be different, because you're you're you're stage settings are different,

so you're innocent, enter, isn't that Really the driving force of having a CIA knowledge and information is power. information can can free and in some ways it It feels like it can also enslave you if you're, if you'd, just you're hit by a tsunami of it. Music and orients you and I think again, Disorient Julia were very disorienting moment. I think CIA. My experience of it was his very technical element. looking about is global, Isn T J committees, it is happening all over the world all the time. Every institution, practically practically every human life today has been transformed, okay, so behind us and army we suddenly saw. Massive increases in social and political turbulence, and also very naive. Today,

got, it all seems I guess intuitive, but the time we ask. What's one thing got to do with the other. We have the internet, We have the internet communications device, oh heavens, poet. We'll turmoil why the tune rapid cries out. That's that's. You got much clearer when I left meant I dedicated myself to research to the subject. and what became to me was that our institutions of the the greatest challenges of the twenty first century, including our political democratic institutions were set up. Receive their shape, their form, their substance, their legitimacy and their authority in the twentieth and When a century was there hey day of item you listen top down that I'm a legitimate, because we owe them do these sunrise, the two issues that we are because Reached his particular place at institutions, you must listen to me information, ITALY, moment of information scarcity. These

the two issues possessed. Each of them semi monopoly over the information in their own domains. That gave them authority what the sooner we did was blog. That await a moment too soon I'm hit each one of us institutions, including our government, including by political parties, are all our political and governmental institutions. What lapsed into a state of crisis? That's where we are today, it began long. I read the book because I want that several of us were seeing this and part of the effect, the dead Think that this is this disorienting moment has had is a lot of the old Buttercup categories, though, really make a whole lot of sense. I people talk about republican, undemocratic Acerra their little. These terms at honestly, yellow at least ninety centuries over them are eighteenth century and it was brought back. she explained some things,

take a bully, miss the big, the big divide of our moment, which I think is between a public. That used to be a silent ideas- and now is vociferous, is very loud and very angry, and the elites who are still clinging to these old twentyth century type is devised. An eye terribly demoralized and and don't particularly care. Much the public have a feeling that, if ethical disband the public and summoned a whole new version of it that was ill more and that they will do it a second so- there seems to be too choices. If you're looking at this you you see how the elites are kind of now banning together as a kind of all need each other. I feel like it. You know King Louis, and they learn their lesson, don't say let them eat cake, till you have all of the reinforcements and offences up but screw?

public We ve got our own little world and we do not want it to change. It is, it's been fed for a long time by electing people, and they don't really do what they say. They are going to do now we have this ability to connect with one another to net. Work with one another to see we're not alone. It's not just us that feels this way are me that just feels this way, there's a lot of people, and so seemingly happening is what my it started out as hey hope and change, or that a party hey. We want to we want some. Some restraint here on our government has I turned into burn it all down or two all control I don't see anybody asks for total control, anything they leave. I would love to have will control Dar are far from it are far

more than an everyday. I think, if you and but their heads and read their writings. You realise that these are people over a scared and, and they know that that the world is slipping from them. They are not adapted to the digital era. There is the two issues are totally maladaptive lit up and in their their watch that's a hope- and there are all these people out there, yelling and screaming, and there who are they? Why are they there? What can I do and there are no real answers, I think, I think They are two sides to this issue. I started writing a book. Thinking that I had a side that I, I was a member of the public, so I felt like I was my side, but honestly the public has its own pathologies or right the publican? talking globally now, they know we like to talk about the United States as if there was no world, but this actually happens all over the war everywhere and effect,

began. The first manifestations were not in the United States, but the public is not one its many it fractured it's the old passive mass audience, which was like like to say a gigantic mirror mean down an old guy, I remember those days right where we all saw ourselves reflected we'll bought this. in cars will watch the same tv show will work. that mirror has toppled and followed and shattered for the public to the public that lived, an old, broken pieces. And their mutually hostile that they don't like each other. Much even within for there to be the right way, the conservative side, the republic as idle left wing, the democratic side, progressive side. People inside those groups hate each other almost more than they hate the others rain. So how do you mean?

unify and mobilise and what they won unifying force. Both sides everywhere. Is there absolutely loathed. The established order, the system, so everything is gonna, focused against you. in a second you say well before this thing or for their lives have any programme of others. The public disintegrated took its component parts so to get it mobilize to be against now. your against. If you repudiate everyone, the gate, and and provide an alternative in the end, because nihilism which is the belief that does as a former progress, so It has been a mantra, mine, the sense, hope and change. I felt the same way as many people who were voting for Obama felt I will a change of the system? I wanted hope and belief in something I didn't vote for him, but I I I thought that was such an effective thing, but the thing I kept basking was chief and to what

and no one is providing that? So that is the answer of why we're not hearing any new solutions, because there is nothing to unite on what does politicians give you just that Where are? They will say something that sounds like a has content in it, but when you start and ass. He opened you realize what is discussed fit almost anything right you're, so you could have hope and change at a very good one than gonna about my lected or you could say, make Amerika great again gay and what does it mean? No, you couldn't have deprived. Would any gonna content that that'll slogan? I think Therefore, when they are elected to this happened. They feel like they escaped because They got elected without actually proposing a programme, but actually

opposite is the case for the public, the public, listen to these slogans and bills of these enormous expectations are make Amerika great hope and change, and it almost impossible for these politicians to deliver. So I think I don't to make this about politics at all, but I did You're gonna do it. I prefer that you do it to both sides, because I don't want you to think you did a really good job in your book of not playing politics, but Do excoriated hoping change. You do excoriated President Obama, in that, in fairness is written before Donald Trump and I'm sure you can excoriated him. But can you can you go on why? that was important to put in the book. Yeah. I mean I also didn't considered excruciating your hundred percent right. I am and analysed, and if you can tell what my polluted

opinions are, then I broadly failed. You right. I thought that Obama. I think that the public as a whole in these digital networks. That's what I call a sectarian minded to this sector in mindset is very defined sociologist but this is very egalitarian. It does. Sub leaders is: doesn't accept programmes, its stance against the centre, that I know the institutions which are considered sin forward and rather than provide an alternative in terms of programmes they model behaviour. In other words, I am in my virtuous behaviour countering this deceitful world right, and that is what you get from a lot of these protests. Alot of these movements- and I think President Obama was the first sector in an powers of residue in office right you

and I found a fascinating. I would just a product of my research I mean I I saw reading his speeches and I would just amazed your typical american precedent that almost invariably every american president up to the moment, was to be a man of action. Who said this is wrongly as a problem have a solution in a fix it president Obama after he lost his governing majority in I guess it was twenty ten. resumed. What I think was his actual natural state. Would you was a gay, a in the wilderness, who was accuser and chief right. He would point two for example, economic inequality gave a long speech about economic equality are terrible was in America even in comparison with third world countries. It was bad and even that was it that was all he heard. No solution is no fixes. Many of the figures in the olden days, but bogus

So maybe it's better if you have a fixed, not to say it, but that was not what he was interested in. He was history initiative being present, presided over the gun, the country, and yet you reject the system over which he was precisely was telling us all the time how that system was called. and then just ten right prompted the same thing. Yes, I don't give us our credit for much, but I watched Obama and I wrote in the book. I said he was a successful. This theirs to be imitators young people to people We know blame trump on a lot of things. In reason, why down from came to his X Y see I think it was a lot of things that brought Donald Trump to it, but the one thing that surprised me list the people who voted for Donald Trump in twenty sixteen was the burn it all down kind of thing that it a we have tried to

within the system, this system is so far gone burnt down and that's what your hearing now and you go in turn nihilism? A lot can weeks lane, for instance, is nihilism. What we saw on January six, its capital, is it what we saw? over the summer, the summer of love, witches oddly titled. Is it but Is it more? What is nihilism the ultimate suppression of nihilism today is when a person picks up a gun. The walks into a room full of innocent strangers as our shooting them sometimes her soft eyes for a reason, because they are you know jihad ease or because they are wasted, premises, some

for no reason at all, because you represent us impure society and I'm I'm I'm an exterminating angel. All right. I am that the internet rant made flesh. To exterminate. Do these are basically when you read these these people, who do these terrible things online, they sound, just like everybody else. Align their renters exempt issued will actually take a further step. I think the two Shelly when you start bashing add our existing institutions, which it that, like I said before, have many reasons to be criticized, but don't offer a solution or alternative Then you are engaging this into the analysis, to exercise with your analysis or not, I think they're black lives matter, movement and and the crazy q and on people in January six have allowed more common than is good. This giving credit flows are there.

Basically angry. They were basically want to change. They had no idea inside their heads with a change would be, and then they had an organization, the leaders, no programmes so that and the moment when they say that black lives matter they took over a couple of autonomous zones at West and and the protesters are generally sixty basic. Violated the capital building, but once you do, then it's like you can see. dear and the headlines is like now. What would they what is the can a model there superiority and then they go away because they have nothing nothing to offer. So I have described this in the past. I like you to come, may show me what Where I have this wrong, I have described the climate in America that there is, if you look at it ball field, The five yard line me

ten yard line of each each ends on there are. Yes, absolutely bat crap crazy people who just are there just angry and they don't care what happens next. They just want an end to this then you have everybody else. Kind of you know in the forty you know yard line that is like you know this is all kind of good. I I agree it's not, working, but let's not be crazy. Here Everyone is focusing attention on the to enzymes, and so there controlling their there They are pushing us into into a place that the rest of the public doesn't really want to go. It is accurate or oars the the people in the center. They nihilistic now too, now that's a really hard question that are really hard question, like I shall say a couple of things about it.

Number one. the the no. I think that football metaphors wrong, because Roca quenched together and it did, but I think Essentially, the anger, structural, in other words, our information environment. This sooner me that I'm talking about it is blizzard voices right. If you are the calm, moderating force- and you say the reasonable things, you have naughty, it's not right. Sir. if you want to have a not easy to foresee the do a screen this this

they will do a scream angrily. The third thing it s. Will you make the breakthrough right? Is you find somebody in the other side they sell screaming at you and other scream at begins, and then the people on your side start to line up behind you good thou, the other guys are attacking you and suddenly you build a following, and you become somebody right that structurally, how you get attention in this environment. So there's a structural side to it. I I where the public stands, the actual by Giorgio above death, a really interesting question as hard to get at them people who are in. maidenly angry, I think, but when, when we talk about devil. Political polarization, which I keep getting thrown at me us as as finding a way to do it? our political environment It makes no sense to think that I mean gal just came out with a pool that said that

fifty per cent of America's identify as independence a record number, I was up polarized between parties right right, another than other pole. I forget: who did it also record number saying they wanted a third party so how polarize between Republican. I am, I think I think there are part of what we're dealing with it. The dysfunction of reformation environment part of it is. It is a function of the institutions, the fact that at the top of residues, It really is everybody gonna, gloaming, together and trying to say, was my site or or or nothing right, but where the actual majority of the public stands. Spain. If you ask me my gut feeling I would agree with you, I wouldn't People just want to live on their lives there ready

they're not really interested in getting into these scrubbs. When I was in israel- and I too, I spend time with shoes, I spend time with Palestinians and what I heard from both sides when the cameras we're off and when people were alone, I just My kids, do you have a safe school? I just I just wanted to. I want to be with my family and I realize, when the cameras are off everybody, Once the same thing and I think that's true about most of America, but we are I it's hard to get going, hard to get it in specifically the hard hard to get data on that right, but I do have. I do have a little incident. Would you get him you gonna seal that in my head

In writing. I was where these back and forth deck and published online with aid. Somebody publishers, something in your response, and I will then it was all about the hawaiian incipient civil war and our policies have become more like a tear and the Earl I'm city for my laptop right above that is my window and as I'm reading all the stuff about warm. What's your neighbors right, cockerell social distancing waving o another. I don't think it well seeing as I don't see civil war or I I think So one last thing is most people, don't just massive amounts of news and that's probably healthy, I think that those of us who who enjoy too many news than to her, very distorted idea of how important even politics are. Ok, they most american lives

very detached from politics and his family and his church ended its community and you know it sports league and it many things other than whoo hoo. ass, the latest law that that you did like or that you were getting or what I I will tell you, I have the same feeling when I'm at work. I feel one way when I am: anywhere else in the country, except for the coast or the power centres. I I see people getting along. Everybody is fine. Everybody is kind of back to the add on agree with that person, but that's you know that that's kind of cool the one thing that is, is However, I think frightening sign is the key so culture that is, happening right now. How does this fit in to your theories? What what what's happening there.

is that what I said at one side wants total control there. One side and I don't even know where it belongs, but there is one sided psych my way or the highway I did basically It has Much generational thing as anything but I mean I think you have in the internet, A lot of it the instability in the internet is a of identity. Ok, you have to sort of you're organic. You The person that you're looking at right here have to mingle myself. Fellow, the joint Wall Street better. If I want to join like life, I want to join all the you basically have to to join hands with a digital. Damn you, to mutilate yourself frightened and that, with all kinds of

certainties and doubts, and and the more you do, that the more it gets confusing, what pronoun do you use will do what's the right word, what should I avoid and and the more than that happens, I think somebody is going to step up on the sidewalk. And the inquisition or right and I'm gonna get I'm gonna gain power of a sword. By Canceling you right, bye, bye, saying you said the wrong word or use the wrong pronoun or you don't get it right there so and it becomes very intense and very, very dogmatic. Even though we're talkin about trivial things, I honestly do think it's I mean it's important if you belong to the generation that has to an old easier like me as much less important than mean you can guess only twenty down from Sunday, and I don't care you know, but if you, but if you young, it does matter Think what you have is a generation know this zuma generations coming coming up. It's a of of conformists,

who basically keep their nose to the grindstone because they I'm afraid that if they just lift up their head and say their own thing, they're gonna get cancelled, so IP misunderstand the sum of the direction of the book because you talked about, the media scrambling to try keep control of things and seeing that Facebook and all of this stuff has unleashed people to make their own networks. And right, and it's the networks that they're afraid of an end. As I read that I'm looking at what Google is doing, I'm looking at what these algorithms are starting to do too, if you say something that is deemed hateful, it's not you, but they Look then, at everyone who is liking you following you reading, you posting with you and they are.

their squashing those voices as much as they can? And you talk about this in the about. A fifteen percent occur, remember what you called it dilution or or something that they there squashing these networks and these voices can you go into that? Has maybe I misunderstood it. Yeah, I mean, I think I think we happened to be in. Every action has reaction right. We ve spent ten years of the room all of the public think certainly here the United States does a mom. The reaction, the Elise I tried to reassert themselves, they elected Joe Biden, who is tat was his one qualification. He was an old elite and he was safe and they now want to turn the great digital platforms. The front page of the New York Times Circa nineteen eighty, the thing is, it can't be done, it cannot be done basically there try.

The twentieth century information control techniques, but it works in China. No, it doesn't Doesn't it in chinese public knows everything that it wants. All right They keep their heads low and they don't say much where I can get in Bertha determined to get information. China can get it So now I don't think it does. You cannot cancel the information society. I think the elites would to do that somehow to decide. Gonna be ok, let's go the way things were. We were right, with the right little articles to each other and they show up in the New York Times up bad and- and we read the front page for the did informational news, and that is never going to happen and I think think honestly,

it will be interesting to watch this moment of reaction. It'll be interesting to see how far that can go, but there will be a lot of pushed back. There already has been a lot of pushed back. I think, honestly, the the big platforms, no there's a new sheriff in town in the new administration and they're playing up to a right that they know there have been threatened with all kinds of daylight, antitrust action and so forth by by government and they're playing up to the new the new sheriff in town, was What's going on a year? Do down the road so tell me about the meat itself cassettes? What you use to me? You know that was your job at the CIA. celestial about american media here and it's by us or its direction or were or what's happening with the

the old guard, because the New York Times itself is not even what the New York Times you used to be its chain. Direction so what what's happening there and what does that mean for the future of that? Those quotas stood sources as as a social media, would name them. Yeah I mean I I your times that misuse the thing about the news business that people don't realize nobody ever made a penny selling news. Ok, I just never happened right now. before, not now in the olden days. The news, if your new Spain, but also this phase to calm eggs, the advice of the love law that must work as all all those things, but you a bunch of eyeballs, honourable a big ideas, and you sold that audience to advertising right so that was the old model.

digital sooner may, destroy that all the other day, his moved online and I never coming back right, that's pretty much extinction of almost every newspaper that ever was there's a few, though that have very prestigious names and histories like the times in the Washington Post, and they have tried a new model. That model is they lowered it you're digital subscriber in your lured behind this pay? All the problem that model is So what are you what's the commodity or selling me the world of information that is so overloaded is practically an infinite amount of information for practical purposes. The news, Jason you go in Europe due to the elder days. Whenever the young kid you have to keep up with the new right, the news district, the news is there, but you can bet it away. It's coming out you whether you want to or not right so why on earth? Would you pay money too, it is a magical garden of news that is the New York Times behind a p wall. I, I think,

incidentally, are doing the twenty sixteen elections they hid. On a new business model and that this model was We're not selling news that we're not telling I have also advertises we're selling a creed were selling right, basically, selling polarization were selling anger right. You who, in the tramp of course was was the great object of this. You who are terrified of Trump come within little garden of news we will give you good words to use. I will give you good arguments to use your life. A congregation inside the church of Anti Trump will believe the same thing they were selling that creed. Well, I mean It was immediately success before trial The new times digital subscriptions were hovering flat. below one million a double that a year by twenty

sixteen. It was six million, which is the most allowed, so they basically have an ideal that an open, ideological pasture, what kind of like a hidden this is now now comes in, would have truth, though I mean, let's face it trumpets I believe, I was a kid in effect, not a cause of this information. but he was, but he was I mean it did he had he sold whether he was an outrageous personality. Was a show man there's a shield idea, so he's gone You have possibly the most bar boiling politician in my lifetime. precedent, Joe Biden or at the opposite of all that excited and you had would trump the New York Times. Survive maintained that growth, scam, dishes, wait and see. When you When you look at

What they're saying now in Washington about there is this: vast right wing, white, supremacist, terror, movement out there and at the same time move you know, calling it the summer of love when, Horror riots we're going on what can could talk about that a bed? What what what What does this tell you and what's really going on each sides Caesar moved in its own eye and a beam in the eye of its opponents right. I think people who are to the left of it, spectrum see what Supremacists everywhere people, to the right of the spectrum, see antivirus everywhere. I think that, to some extent, the herbs, sincere, I'm sure, but also self serving because then you can

ass laws in and you can generate that anger at the words is easier to who find yourself railing about the whites of premises or anti furs that it is too talk about some boring politician in the centres applying. That's all you want to put trade the other side as the most extreme possible version of it. Some of it is true. Much of it is imagined airy. A lot of it is just political power, doing, I think talk to me about the fifth wave cause. You talk about that in a book explained the fifth wave I mean it is a fact that information. Determine said before that the states setting of society, so a lot of our behaviour depends on that and also that it has not. One might imagine. from a user increased,

even flow. It comes in these waves of pulses and with each one. You see how society arranges itself in also will the invention of writing. You had these societies that were ruled by mandarins and and priests like like Egypt or type the classic, republics. You needed the alphabet, for you could not have to have the alphabet that the printing press was by the way, possibly the most destructive and and disorder. Hunting of all clearly so far. The internet you couldn't including including the internet yes- and I doubt that I'll come back to that in a minute- if you want you couldn't have had the scientific revolution. You couldn't have had a America without the french Revolution, all these things that determine our life today without the printing press, as a third way before wave, was that top down mass media that I,

actually get to experience or as a young person where you know, we were all kind of brought into the information environment, but in a very authority driven away. In other words, you weren't participating, you were just being told. The fifth wave is that's an army that digital that digital members that occurred at the turn of the century, that is still very early on, and we don't really know what what It may, in the end, be more disruptive than the printing press, but a printing in its day was, was horrific, horrific and my friend, what you mean for you mean for that before the hierarchy, for for of society, as it was structured right, in my friend, Antonio Garcia Martinez, smart man on Twitter by the way says if you, there too, the Assad exercise. Few went to

thirty years war right and I was among the bloody, is war that has ever been experience in Europe. Millions died two generations population of Germany, to reconstitute itself and the war was fought over tiny little, really differences. You know your book had ten said, my book than they have in my book had many words that you should have had an over these tiny differences that were very clear and Crispin those books are people slaughtered one another. You wanta time and said: what do you think of the printing press be worth it it's the most horrible and and destabilizing the strong, the invention of our times right, it was the early moment so We know now that the printing press

I have been in any way was demos liberating invention ever, and it may turn out to be that fifty years from now we say or the internet, that was a great stabilizing a liberating technology right now, let's be thankful, we're not in the thirty years war would slaughtering one another are there any press was the same kind of thing. It was necessarily the people that were arguing over that. It was power structures that were arguing over that it was the kings and the churches that were fighting for a their old world or the new world order of the time who would dominate whom it wasn't. I but you can go back and those that those times war and the most people are like this anymore I just wish this would stop. there was some extent true, I think this. Extent not I mean I don't owe the period a hundred percent well, but I know for a fact that there was little

there were truly sectarian forces I were unleashed. In other words, small group certainly decided not to know we really know and and would go in the war path and then and the horrible things would happen any so there was a lot of then the NEO, the powers that be would try and Scots him Company, Germany in particular, was ass. Much people said feeling empowered, because here have this book I can now read and they have this book and the book Tell me exactly what is right and those people over there what is wrong and then we will just have to get rid of them. Where did that it will the question of Heaven three, this acquitted of God and the second there's a couple as to be had, and there wasn't there wasn't so I think it was a terrible moment boys as much a question of the public

dissipating, as it was of the powers that be then coming in and tried to establish order violently. So is the diminishment of religion good. thing or a bad thing, to settle things down. I mean I would imagine if your life king of the world. That way, you would say it was these sacks of religion that that really kind of edge no exit on and made things much worse. is, is as part of the breaking up of networks, are quieting of networks, or is this just we're going through right now? This diminishment- and you know in inner in our thinner churches is just part. The natural that high Turkey, doesn't work anymore me anything that question can only be answered contractually right. I mean If you are

slaughtering one another or religion. My bed liberal. Democracy emerge from that. I say like an arbiter. That said, now, though, there many past salvation this not just one don't need to kill anybody else. So liberal dogma, he's gonna procedural gonna prosaic, we manage the all the different points of view, their limits. You can't do this. You can do that so religion in that case needed to be managed out of fanaticism. I think we are today is an entirely different context, and I've been thinking about this a lot a lot later lately Glenn it which is not. Religion, but ok what people get their meaning? Where do people get their sense of morality and import? You know: well they get it from family that in trouble they get it.

community that you know you look at the old, masonic lodges and the jobs of common rights there on you and they get it from religion and attendance is, isn't tremendous decline right. So a lot of what is happening today, and this is again very hard to prove empirically but very strong sense of this is true, is p I tried to find meaning in politics can up cannot possibly deliver so the eyes eager eyes, like, I think, the critical race theory. You know the social justice warriors thee, The logical were warriors that become almost a religion, and people are in the end. They will find it very. Very empty, which will only lead to more bad things, but it is becoming a religion. You know I think, Many many many of these online groups and many of these academic year fantasy

like the ones you mentioned are our religion like yes, and, and I think it none of them- none of them can deliver what what people are He filled him with eyes. Ok I think in the olden days, by the way, win people their sense of before they were. You know if you were in a Masonic Lodge a sports league, you were gonna like a big frog and attack he'll pond, I wouldn't. Had religion, you consolation and you heard you had guide guidance of solar wind, Expertly national politics came up for discussion. You use of self. Your sense of who you were was that remotely touched by that. Good, engaging in compromises, because estates were pretty small right,

the problem today when you went societies gonna hollow and when you are sort of, but you are used useless, express yourself in attains absurd of self expressive. You know height and yet It is clear how that ever gonna happen without any meaning inside your life. Then you put a lot of burden of expectations, very slender read which near. This search for justice is search for political solutions for things that are that are way on the scope of politics, and if you ever look at you know the young, the young warriors of the autonomous zones in Seattle in Portland tons and Youtube Video fascinating to watch. You know

They never give you. They don't make demands that they will make claims. Never say you have the changes that the other they basically assumed. A society is unjust and terrible, and then they say well, look look a great. This is the moment. This is decided the autonomous zone moment they everybody supporting a real world virtuous world, and this at a tiny little moment of of. Meaning in these people's lives. Here is very hard and very hard Let them go, and it will constantly change as it did in the french revolution. I know you say in the work that you are not I I can't tell you, nobody can tell you how this is gonna play out and completely agree with that. But can you give us some historic? Maybe comparisons at all on what are the possibilities that are lying in front of a what our choices in front of us and how do we navigate this

yeah. I'm really good at that. My deal with here now and believe me. I find a puzzling enough, but I think I think we are ok we're very early stages of a colossal transformation part of the reason I wrote the book is that I think our institutions are gonna, go through a tremendous reconfigure show courage, and I I was there to be at the end of that. What there is now in terms of liberal democracy and personal rights, freedom right I'm cuban that you know that are not now so before. Was ten years old, I had lived through a right wing dictatorship at a left wing dictators, and I am here to tell you neither a good well, the worst most

functional democracy is infinity infinitely superior to the most effective and efficient. Data she'll be all right, so I would like there to be at the end of all this transformation. Those freedoms and and and those possibilities to avoid I'll, do it. You're, you're leaders and so forth. Party region can predict honestly, is because a lot of that, there's agency involved. A lot always depend on a new Glenn and me and other people who are watching. We will make decisions. We will there's a the elites, are innocent selected by the public if we continue to select at least that are essentially reactionary. This is what we're going get we're gonna get an extra. It's really love. It's really hard cause. I've thought about this a lot that, it's hard at this point, because everybody on both sides feel like it is gone so far to the edge that you'd.

I've heard this from a lot. I feel this way, If you voted for Donald Trump to chain the course of this institutional eyes, corruption and everything else. He was perfectly suited to the walls and then I think he kicked Olano holes in the dvd minnow is kicking in the time and if he could be destroyed by this. who else could it be, and I think we're we haven't seen the last of the how will you say, Obama did this and then tromp was a reaction. Well, I think the Biden policies are reaction and the the coat the coalition that was around Biden is a direct response to trump think you're, gonna, see more and more cancel culture, and that's gonna drive a response even bigger on the oil. At some point you do end up.

with a horrible dictator? Somebody just grabs the pendulum and says it stops here. How do we do we re this down. What are we to think? number one I guess as an immigrant I have. A tremendous belief in the deep roots of our institutions. There is question that occur in shape The growth of the other growth is burned down by scanty. Bruce is gonna grow back. Ok, number two. I have a deep faith in the common sense of the american people, sometimes is more apparent than other tiny Hank, but I think, as you mentioned before, that we discussed before, I think the majority of the public probably not into let's fight to the

ass, an over immigration as fight to the death or even write the basically the latest issue that were made to be so life or death struggle, I mean I'll tell you something, and- and maybe this is known as Iraq is not being a romantic- and I feel like I am, but I just got my: first I could vaccine right and there was a line of hundreds of people were even now, Fairfax gotTa Virginia, and I mean it was It was a remarkable moment. It was ritual of national renewal that I thought that was it ok for fresh funding devoted democratic for many years, but has a lot of Republicans lots of trumpets. None of his new who we were in that line or Wainwright were basically. We are basically choosing life that was real covered. That's real life and death. Okay, we were all was of the same party, the same tribe on that line, and I found that does

cringely moving that's the american public great then we will in the end we just want to move on with life. And yes, we have, we press of the wall will say: well I like Trump or hatred, primarily democrat or Republican, but we did life or death. This is that this is not what are identities are based on mostly, I think will never come this idea. There were the edge of a civil war. Again I look at, got my neighbour is walking by and wait and each other a gold Over one would fight civil wars over. I hope your date, I real, I hope, you're right. I I I Moreover, I go back and forth on the american people, always said trust the american dream. I have always believed in Jefferson's quote trusting Eric and people they're gonna, get it wrong, but eventually they'll get it right, lately I see these slippage of of

Una, equal Airbus Una used to be the bill of rights. I don't know how many people still really believe in the bill of rights and if we lose that then we lose everything right. Well, if there was a guy who also talked about eternal vigilance right, I mean it's always a fight, the memories, and this is a particularly hard moment. I am not denying that us with the book is about. I am concerned sugar. I am do I think, a short term. There's gotta, be probably abuses and and and warping of democracy, almost certainly long term two. I believe that is going to emerge, possibly even more democratic than before, because something that the digital world makes possible. I would add, I'm sorry. I don't want to choose to be optimistic movies, only analytic, yet not an athletic judgment is an act of faith. Why?

I truly believe that the it's going to be the greatest freedom mankind has ever seen. Or the greatest police state authoritarianism the world has ever seen, and it might be both we might go to authoritarian only to have that collapse and be free at some point you know, I don't know you. You said the beginning. I disagree that, albeit a twenty year, and that is that its compressed why do you say that I mean? I think the internet information? and the rate of change is happening in a way that no one has ever experienced in all of human existence. You know Joe jobs and whole industries can be over overnight we are not the same country we were even ten years ago. Definitely twenty.

How long do you see this just grind happening for that part of. It is absolutely true that change is accelerated, that's demonstrable! When you look at how far innovations are being brought online. I mean you sitting decades for something new to become accepted by the population and when you look at things out with the principle that the funds, for example, is Martin Health. How fast fast I was adopted, I only take us I talk to young people are doing for the best rikers at the mines are gonna like whew. What's going on I tell them I'm not going to see the end of this. I am not in the end looking at your grey hairs, you may see the under. I dont think aerial so this is gonna go on for quite a while. My parallel is the printing press took a hundred fifty years for us to figure out what is this thing or what do we do with it? that I think this may be just as long. Thank you so much thanks for coming up, then

thanks for running about. I prefer my pleasure, God, bless you, just a reminder I'd, love you to rate and subscribe to the podcast and has his own to a friend, so it can be discovered by other people.