So homeless person walks up to a progressive and and says I don't wanna be homeless anymore. progressive laughs, condescendingly answers. Will you come? change yourself, you the change society wool. How do I do that progressive apps again and says by difficulties in the streets and buying heroin with all of the stuff you just stole from Walgreens, now a progressive tell me that we're not supposed to say homeless anymore. It's too insensitive, so I apologise. Acceptable alternatives include unhoused residents. People sperience in homelessness, individuals who are unharmed those struggling homelessness and my personal fave neighbours in need that's great, which makes it sound like a progressive neighbour It's me no are shared with homeless people, not probably good for their retail sales. Today's asked knows progressives. He know their game, he

not too long ago, worked side by side with them during his environmental work he was good at it in two thousand eight time magazine named him, hero of the environment. in the nineties. He played a role in important policy change and in twenty eighteen actually ran for governor of California as a Democrat, he's done a Democrat anymore, in fact he's a villain to the left and why well because he still says homeless instead of unhoused resident. Mostly the left, doesn't like that. He disagrees with there access and their hypocrisy Meanwhile, as contributions to policy have done more for the environment than any of their climate changes, real bumper stickers ever could as a journalist and as an author, he has mostly covered environmental issues, but the events of twenty twenty motivated motivated him to write his latest book called San Francisco. Why progress his ruin! Cities

now he's a guy who lived in San Francisco for over thirty years. He lately says I don't even I barely recognise it We ve all seen the sprawling homeless encampments the sidewalks covered in feces and syringes it's more than just San Francisco. It's a problem now, all over our country, the common denominator is not lack of funding. It's not capitalism, it's not how prices, it's not racism. It's not. The police common denominator is progressive. Leftist leadership, leftist radicals who promote glamorous solutions instead of dealing with actual problems just last week. Another five wall green locations closed in San Francisco. They closed in response to a constant state condoned looting. How progressive respond knee was Walgreens vault, please. Welcome Michael Shellin, Burger

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be so familiar with your a fascinating. I began You seem to be somebody who just searches for the truth. Let chips fall where they may, which is very rare today. Ok, very much yea? I definitely come from the last. They came from the radical left, but I'm also boys been evidence based in so both the Anna pop ups, never which cannot last year and salmon sick. I want to take a close look at can a where the left has gone wrong in and the one of the reasons for that had not just how it goes wrong. So I just spend just a couple of minutes going into your past. You were NOME Chomsky reading. Would you have been one of the black flag because I know you got involved with the environmental movement and you were on the radical side of that. Would you describe family radical

after me. I went in work to the sandinistas when I was still a teenager in high school. I worked on radical political movements and Latin America. For many years I was always pretty committed to non violent political action. So I was in Seattle when the black block started breaking windows, Mcdonald's, but I wasn't monarch, breaking windows, was raised christian Congregational lists and so I've? Never. I never held liberally anti human, malthusian values, any radical environmental movement, and I we thought that there was something a bit odd about celebrating homelessness, which isn't there discover when I moved to San Francisco, but four George Soros funded. Think thanks and organizations I advocated furred drug criminalization needle exchange, which is the passing of clean needles to drug attics.

you know some of that work. I still support other parts of it. I skeptical of My understanding was always that we would help attics to get drug treatment and what's happened instead, as that we basically just allowed open air drug use right, open our drugs scenes, which we youth, we euphemistically called almost encampments unrelated breakdown of public order, public safety in big progressive cities, its it's amazing to me, because I'm actually for drug legalization. The way Paul trickle. Did it. did a great study on it and found the more they spend the worse? It gets. If a legalise all of it and spend that money really. I think it was even a fraction of that money on drug rehabilitation, their problem, virtually solved and we're just approaching it the wrong way, but I don't think. Anyone in this country- and I mean that some left and right- I don't know how

people, are actually serious about solving a problem and it compared to those who are just wanting power? And keep us all divided One lived in San Francisco I describe going, to Amsterdam, which is a very liberal city. Marijuana decriminalize prostitution is decriminalize. I also enter the head of Portugal's drug programme These are cities that do not have open air drug since they do not have almost people living on the streets. I ass the head of Portugal's drug programme if If you're using heroin in public in life, Spain. While what happened to you said you would be arrested. You can't Heroin in public in Lisbon, you can't camp in a tent downtown Amsterdam, so yeah its decriminalize in the sense that if you get caught with a certain amount of drugs, they dont say

you're a prison. However, if you have an addiction angered displaying beggared engaged in papers that are clearly self destructive destructive to the people around you, you get right. for something called a commission for their dissuasion of addiction, which is does terrifying. As it sounds in part, because it includes a both secure. Defence attorney judges, social workers, but it also includes members of your family, so the Portuguese pressure on annex to quit to get their lives together? It may understand it. That's the alternative. The prison. The alternative present should not be what we ve done in San Francisco, another progressive cities, which is just to let people use drugs wherever and basically- entering the really severe states of psychosis, really the two intense Matthews unabated method, heroin use so really it's just gone, which is what you far just became too radical.

Do to you know what you would call it and are a progressive libertarianism, where the idea is that, once you declared a victim, way for being african, american or homeless, or addicted drugs or even mentally ill. Then nothing is required of you and everything is given, and we know that that's a terrible way to treat people suffering from what is basically mental illness you know you always slammed didn't. Conservatives always get slammed for this kind of idea, but Ben Franklin after spending time in London wrote to one of his friends and said you know you are growing the system. The best you can do, is care for them but make them uncomfortable in. situation, so they want to get out they want to do something themselves we we do just the opposite. It's it's more uncomfortable in America today to start your own business and go your own way than it is to

Sit at home do nothing collect from the government or maybe new drugs in San Francisco, why you're, crap and in the streets. Oh yeah, I mean I document in San Francisco that we basically give cash welfare still San Francisco in San Francisco to people suffering dry. the action which even the most progressive drug treatment advocate say, is a terrible idea. We give we free housing without any conditions, this is clearly bonkers, Amber Republicans honestly went along with this under George W Bush, we created something the housing first policy, which is the federal policy, any ideas just give you a housing and it was very alluring simplistic idea, but like a lotta, simplistic ideas turn out to have terrible consequences. that's not what they do in civilised developed nations, whether in Europe or Asia, Japan in Amsterdam, if you will to get your own apartments you,

have to pass a sobriety test. You have to make or you to me Progress on your personal plan of your suffering from mental illness, Unita take her psychiatric medications. If you, I watched, social workers interact with a man with autism and he wasn't going to his work. He wanted his own apartment and ass. They were like you, gotta show for your job, so there to be this thing of reciprocity, is a very basic idea, which is that you don't get something for nothing. There's it's as a reward for their sticks at our consequences. So what we need to do is move from a housing first policy to a shelter first policy. Everybody should be sheltered and required to stay in shelters. You can't sleep on the street, it's not safe, it's sound hygienic and then, if want to get your house and you have to earn Erna. There has to be some reward for, but the goal is independence for people. It should not be constant dependence on the government. We also just the treat people treatment first, it's a start it if you're breaking the law- and I stress this part

you'll get confused about what I'm saying my view and this is consistent with- I think, a more libertarian view if you wanna, kill yourself using hard drugs and the privacy of her own apartment and you're not hurt anybody. I dont know There should be a priority for law enforcement to go, hunt you down. I think it's not. I think- bonkers that you would one one would use Math Arafat nor Heroin in your ear on home, but that's not a high on a priority for the public, by contrast of Europe, she is leading to live in a tent on the street and shoot Heroin and smoke fence in all in public and deficit in public spaces. Your boy in the law and we should enforce the law and require the You stay in a shelter, get treatment, and if you do we do that. Then you can go to jail, but we have to enforce the laws in this country. We have to enforce them, including a progressive cities, but Here's the problem. there doesn't seem to be any actual law anymore. people abide by or they you'll pay up.

Multi? If you don't have the right friends, we are no longer a nation of laws. We are a nation of men That's really really dangerous? How do we get that? back in place first well, that's a great question, for there is no at San Francisco. Is I wanted to get to the bottom of? How did we go from trying? to redress some of the the sins of the past year. We ve had a terrible, obviously history of racial discrimination people have been oppressed and victimized in the past, but we went this really bizarre extreme, which is this idea that whole groups of people can be categorized as victims that and that in itself, has been re suggested. The idea that all African Americans are victims of the terrible idea, but even for people, but many then they got. These are putting. People know how to grow, including the mentally ill a homeless people are suffering,

drug addiction, you know some cases, people are victims, but then you have to ask. The question is at the end of the story: victimization is a moment towards heroism, and the heroes of San Francisco are actually recovery. Drug attics, their totally inspiring people. They ve gone through twelve step gone through recovery than them. honest people. I ve ever met there funny and interesting. As I tell you stories of recovery, because I think that such a inspiration for us, but that's how we have to view people stop viewing was objects or as victims there on a road to recovery, and we need to help them on that road. So you don't want, one question I had is: is this victim etiology or victimology? Is it a stupid, as it seems? Is there really that dark ended? The further this is the sad truth. Is there really is so my hope is to answer your question: how do we all this. I think we have to drag this ideology into the sunlight. I think when people see it for what it is colluding. Liberals levels

This is just bizarre that we so weird because Roger it anybody that way. Where did go wrong, because there are many of us that you know you can still be compassionate and I want you to have people, you know I grew up an abusive family, I'm an alcoholic. My mother was an alcoholic, her bottomless suicide. I could call I was a victim. doesn't matter when I'm at the bottom of the barrel, and I'm I have a choice. I mean they're gonna live or die and it is the moment of heroism. When you say I want to live, and I want to live differently and you find the way to do that. But don't celebrate that and in fact many arrogance feel like we ve been discouraged. let me just let me play devils Advocate here, Michael, you on this for a long time we feel like we ve, been on this for a long time, and I know

talk about our politicians, cause they stuck on the right, but where did he go wrong? Where did you wake up, and why should we? Why should we listened to you now and why should the people on the left listen to you, because you have this new revelation I mean and forceful, and no one should take my word for anything I mean just as with apocalypse. Never separate sickle includes over twelve hundred footnotes from the best available science its it. Basically, this book, more than apply was ever consists of many many interviews with people that self identifies liberals and progressives and they're the ones that offer the most devastating indictment the mentality and the system, I'm England. What your work has been so important is doing is drawing attention to the importance of mentality and a fate, and there are two things that I feel like. I some clarity about, which is that you know for a lot. liberals who embrace self help. We love united Well, one particular self help

found founder of cargo Behavioral therapy Viktor Frankl Man's. For me he survived the concentration camps under the Nazis because he got his mentality right. He knew that he had to have a purpose. A goal it was to be reunited with his wife and his parents and to write a book to be an inspiration to the world S. Liberals love this book, so my question was: why is it that liberals embrace self help in their private lives, but then clear self help to be blaming the victim? That's what they call it when it comes to political life. So you won't surprise that terrible idea that that asking people for some responsibility and accountability is the same as blaming the victim. It comes out of the late sixties. It's really a backlash to all success that had been made in the United States by the radical laughed it's a completely toxic idea, accountability, reciprocity, responsibility. These are

pillars of our civilization and so what's occurred, as the radical left has basically been attacking the pillars of western civilization, and you see it every institution is under attack may started with get hospitals after World WAR, two, it also started it also now is obviously, including our universities are police departments. I described the attacks on the police, which, if you really cool, about black wives. Thirty times Mark african Americans are killed by civilians than by police in this country, and you care about homicide about saving black that's all lives. You should be pro police, worried about police violence, the worse weight, worse thing to do. If you care about police violence is to cut the police force, because you need police, you need sufficient police forces that are not stressed and under strain. So I think there's some would gives me hope is the response. This book has been incredibly positive, not just from conservatives but also from liberals good. The radical left usually goes too far.

Our answer, if you know it's hard, I'm progressed in San Francisco San Francisco, who think that things are fine. You think it's ok to people with schizophrenia, people. You know that attacking other people, I mean there's a lot of violence against women that is occurring in the interest and not an inner city by the downtowns of our greatest city. So I do think things have reached a tipping point, but I think that there is something that the ass it was do need to deal with, which is that you do need some kind of faith need some sort of belief and some higher power, otherwise descends into this really dogmatic religion that may think us. They think it's not a religion at all, but it really is a kind of San friends sickness which has been. Secondly, the idea that love is all you need action is all you need, and we know that we also people also need discipline, hard work structures and sums the personal responsibility. You are, I mean you,

sing in the gospel to a lot of people. That watch me I'm thrilled to hear that there are a lot of people that have followed you that they are starting to feel this way because it it we're in least now, where we're completely detached from reality, completely D. and were being told to ignore what we actually see with our own eyes or what we experience at the supermarket or on the streets in a city. None of this makes sense. You know this this last weekend, the the White House saying inflation is good because it shows people are buying stuff in the economy is good. Don't know no no no it's not bad when it comes to lets a California cal Foreign you just reelected Gavin Newsome, and that seems to me- and maybe I'm reading it wrong as let the stuff

I quote, go because see starts doubling down on things now, but he wasn t removed from office, how you see that. Yeah. Well, I'm just to agree with you. I mean we have seen your California criminalized. Three grams of hard drugs, including found no in the same legislation in TWAIN fourteen we also decriminalize shop, Fifty nine hundred yards with goods, so them Walgreens Greens biggest drugstore chain, or one of our major changes in shutting down stores and sentenced Fran in San Francisco and San and Michael left, has been claiming that this is not a problem. They ve been saying: oh there's, no real problem at the Walgreens, basically denying this incredible reality: The reason is because you note for because one paradox, it are a pip, apparent pair oxygen progressives concerned about victims, but they're not concerned about the victims of of bath and are concerned about the African Americans been killed by.

Other african Americans there only concern about asking earned so by police. So why is that? In the reason that I got out and San Francisco is that dresses are only concerned with the victims of the quota system. There are only concerned with victims of capital, but some there concerned, with victims of other people. So that's the heart of the problem: I think that is not a mainstream view. However, most pay most Democrats reject that. tat will be. That's a radical left, a view, as for the west elections you know my my understanding and if you look at the appalling gaiters at most, voters were still thirty, not true that we have We have a very affluent pretty wealthy population in California now, because of home prices, went up so much will tend to be very near its quantity The word conservative on co their day. They really are in favour very restrictive measures, and that was bathing there were voting on. You know what

we tested, we did many poles, but so have many other groups that testing the broad agenda that were proposing, which is a shelter first agenda, a shelter requirement treatment. First seen, earned as well as universal Psychiatry, which were calling calcite. We find support for that agenda. Around seventy to eighty percent among registered voters in California. So I think there is a real opportunity for some fresh candidate next year term, Against- gave a new sun and when I don't know if it's a Republican, because you know we have an open alike, rural system in your morning so could be to democratic, could be an independent, but I do think that people, California, already fur for something that is. It as an alternative to the radical left. You know that interesting thing is when I explain what San Francisco is doing to people to a lotta, just ordinary Democrats, that I know that

I absolutely reject it. They say I am not in favour of defending. Please I'm not in favour of keeping giving money to drag out Ex on are not favourable drug attic sleep on the street she drugs and on the street in deficit in public. So I dont think that that that river, that red reining in those as this is, is in any way a fringe idea, things actually quite popular, but it seems as though it is. I mean it feels as though that the what's happening in California is now the National stance and Vienna aid I hate to see the rest of the country, go down that road. But we're we're enacting the same kinds of policies all over the country. Now. Yeah true true, I was just in New York City in a New York, traditionally had done a pretty good job of actually requiring people to be in shelters, but I saw people

no on sixth avenue, on a mattress with their solve, with their cell phone sleeping out on the sidewalk to police. Shows one block away staring at their that their phone Like some of us do when really you need? You need to do what I saw the social work. Is that I shadowed in Amsterdam. Netherlands do, which is when we discovered someone trying to sleep on a park bench you'd say: look, we have a bad for you in a shelter. You can't sleep on the park. It's not safe. For you know, it's not order. You it's not safe for anybody else, New York, he used to do that. I mean there they did have they knew who all the homeless. Where this, what was told to me We know who they are and we know who refuses to go in. And who doesn't, but we have a bed for for everybody, but Apparently we don't answer today.

Right, I mean you know, and I really get at the people in particular are responsible for this and by the way, I'm a lifelong, a seal. You supporter, but unfortunately- and I support a lot of a slow you down the past, but in for I also use been a terrible bad actor in this situation. I them? You know when one of our our grandparents when they suffer from dementia, whether small timers or some other. Cause when they suffer from dementia. We don't, them wander around in the sea where there in the city, where there at risk to themselves or something bad could happen to them. So why do we do that with people suffering from other forms of till illness, why do we let people suffering from psychosis, whether from schizophrenia or extensive met? use. Why did we let them wander around the city? It's immoral, it it's not safe for them and in Amsterdam, others civilized cities. They say, folks with psychosis, they say you have to go, stand and shelter it. You will be able to see a psychiatrist. This for me, condoms,

to the operation of cities and civilization, work Glenn. Honestly, while after salmon sick San Francisco, I declared myself no locker progressive. I changed my Marty registration to from democratic independent, because I like I'm living in an immoral society, and I don't mean that sound the way that I think it may sound a lot of people, but I feel it up living under like apartheid in South Africa were in some some system where, unlike I feel wrong, paying taxes to basically allowing hundreds of them die Every year on, the street I infer for different reasons. I feel the same way. I think the government is so is connected now from morality multiple subjects that I don't I don't No, what I pay my taxes for anymore, I don't don't recognize. You know the one in that I have always felt- is that this

system is it will correct itself when the people correct itself You know what I mean when the people are all going down. One way somebody like Martin Luther King Appears- and do corrected and we start to move in a better way. I don't see. I don't see that now see. I don't see a lot of people standing up, but I I don't see the self correction on anything policy. That are clearly not working. What we're doing down at the border. The most immoral thing, I've ever seen, remember I'm the guy who got into trouble with the right because I brought food and things down to the people. had crossed the border under Obama and, I said, look you can disagree, but you have to see people is people. You have to see the plight that therein right now No one seems to be talking about the kids.

We lost forty thousand minors wool d think. Therein, healthy situations now we lost. forty thousand of over the last six months. That is immoral its immoral what's going on, but it Doesn't seem like it, matters to people! Why. What have you got your absence? I totally, I totally agree, were losing our humanity gladden, that's the most severe thing that you could say about a people or a civilization or a culture. That's what you know. Seventy that's! What happened please, in Germany, with Dietrich Bond, it's why he failed the german had lost their humanity and no matter what he said to appeal that humanity. That door was ready closed it. We can let that happen here or we're gonna make them. Look like rookies, I'm

going to give you some numbers here. Ninety three thousand people died last year from drug deaths or ways and means or overdoses. That's a five fold increase the seventeen thousand people that died from drugs in the year, two thousand, that's almost as almost three times as many people to hide of drugs last year. As car accidents almost five times me as I promised I started a normal year. This is out of control. I do have one quote at the end of San Francisco, because, even though the book is focused on why progressives ruin cities. I do offer a critique in fact, but I do as I quote. Conservatives making a critique of the right and why the right hasn't been able to offer a powerful alternative and politically and progressive cities, and I quote the late Pact Moynihan, who is a very interesting figures, someone I really identify with a lot of ways. He was by either the Democrat, but he worked for Nixon as you know, and race can

and about the disintegration of the family and when they had said something really important said. The central conservative truth is that call her determines the political life of a nation the central liberal true, is that politics can intervene in a cultural life and and change the direction. So I do think that which point I was correct, see Waste is like yours, voices like Joe Rogan, whose podcast I did last week. And Petersen I do see. it having a bit very. We encourage US liberals, a very wise sweetest again and your times. Yes, I do see. Are people coming moving from left to right, a little bit more Glenn gangrene world, for example man's eighty? These are voice, is that I see really making a difference in the culture, but I agree with you We need some sort of new political formations enter a new political leadership. That transcends alot of those old left right boundaries, because you know what I opposing is something that you know is calling calcite its speed the we saying you know shop

the idea that you need to treat people with mental illness. You need to treat people with addiction there. That's a moral issue that this is not just a kind of technical question. That should be something that appeals to both reasonable conservatives and reasonable liberal salami. Let let me take it to come to this question, because I think we agree on most of what you said I mean you know, pull up the herd, we're gonna disagreements some things, but I mean the direction. I think we agree on what I the conservative, has been won only wrong because didn't fear the corporation and that because we never. I think we never saw the corporation as getting that out of True, we should have listened to. It's been out control for a long time. But now it's more, powerful than all nations on earth, combined

and we failed that the the conservatives have been warning about an out of control government and I dont understand how. how the left does- I fear that it still power and and that one is even harder to stop, because the the police? Who do you call when the government has gone bad? You got. But he D call. So why Why is there this trust of the current you're saying calcite? The first thing that went through my mind was, Heavens, do you remember all of the horrible things used to happen in psychiatric spills back into fifty sixties and stopped. Thank God, that was where my mind went, and I dont understand how can bridge that gap. How come

We have many, conservatives are gone home cow, where we wrong on corporations. how come the left doesn't see that on the government were, that is such great point and in an frankly what is no see it on the power of corporation and to raid were seen their lorries theory. I take over preparations, whom you know I after I last year, when I look applied, was never came out. I was censored by Facebook. Now Facebook censoring my friend beyond Lombard and others, for telling true facts about climate change and the environment. I share your concern. You know in San Francisco I do described the horrible treatment of mentally ill people I mean before they were mistreated in hospitals. or change into baseman Salmon Barnes and it horrible experiences after we we do institutionalized and relieve progressive, shut down psychiatric hospitals with the consent Many conservatives,

mentally ill people were literally dumped on the street, I mean they were literally taken from hospitals and put on the street. Many of them ended up in jails in prison, the institution that has the most mentally ill people. The United States, is the LOS Angeles County jail. I don't either One described the horrors that occur inside there, but literally was trans institutionalization. We put, we took a lotta hospitals and put them in jails in prisons. About was terrible in terms of the coup for influence, you're, absolutely right. Men. People know that gave a new some are governor in California was caught without a mask at a very experimental, the most expensive fancy, restaurants in the world and french laundry, few people know that he was there with obvious for the call for New Medical Association and for some our biggest healthcare companies. My view there is a role for obviously private sector companies, but you have have a system that is accountable and so with council, it would do is it would say there has to be somebody in charge. Nothing

it's done in our society without our hierarchy. It's why our military, we still rely on it, even more the various problems that it's been having still ass, a hierarchy even cannot things to be done, so we need some accountability in the system. We need that of calcite to report directly to the governor and the council. It would then oversea private contracts. certainly, but it would be transparent. There would be accountability right now. It's completely opaque. It's a byzantine system. There is both two problems is both overlapping services. Sometimes you will have two or three social workers and then there's fragmented Some people will get out a drug treatment, go back on the street overdose and die from drugs, because there's no connectivity and the system so that something is fixed, the system is something who's gonna require, I think, a consensus between, like I said I think forward. Thinking service for thinking progressives, because it's me don't be a mixed model. It's gonna have to involve. The government is going to have to involve the private sector in some

we're doing what I think a lot of Republicans have done, understandably, but also for a number of liberals, which is the kind of points so that charity and imagining that they can deal with you one method to cyclists so that they can deal with these being almost encampments. I think these days are long past and so the real opportunity for us and progressive cities and states California, in the services area, is that is come chaos. too much. Violence on a street people are Lee. We who are people are being made on save for having public health disasters so in those crises that I think, creates an opportunity for new political leadership, and then why do you say that? I've charity, something I have a charity that basically for the most part, What we do is we will find the best people on the ground closest to the problem. and we just help fund them and- and it's all just based on whose kitten

as the biggest bang for the buck. Why do you say I'm charities couldn't do that several reasons that I go through in some detail in San Francisco Bay? In short term? You that's. The model that we have had for the last fifty years is private charities that receive contracts from cities and counties. In the first reason it has worked as that we're dealing when you do a gigantic send the mentally ill. You don't know how trans in population, often moving around the state and if you're, if you're someone who is arrested multiple times and finally sentenced or given the choice between prison and drug treatment, Europe treatment should probably not be anywhere close to where you were doing drugs because the drugs are a trigger. We know that getting out of Europe and drug seen as necessary. You made me maybe three, with a major study that was done in Vietnam of american soldiers who became addicted to Heroin in Vietnam, big when they came back to the United States, most Them were able to kick their addictions symbol

because there wasn't any heroin near them. You go back to Kansas City or something from Vietnam is not easy to go, find heroin at least not in the sixties, early seventies. Today we don't. We have that problem where so much of our rehab. It's right there in the middle of the open drug seeds or the open drug mark its way to triggering for people, what we need is to stay wide solution so that you can actually do drug rehab or adult foster, care or psychiatric help in cities outside of those big open drug seen so that you may go to your arrested in San Francisco or LOS Angeles, you may getting drug treatment in place like Bakersfield or Fresno, where the rent is cheaper and you're, not in the middle of such chaos, canoe you cause you mention in the book, Michael Cow, an awful lot. I think I for announcing that right for call for cod. Michel Foucault. Yes, thank you, yeah. I know it's fine. I know who he is on the surface. I know enough

not now, like we'll guy, not a guy that you would want to hold up and say: hey he's he's our man, but you returned to this over and over in the book, and saying he's It's his influence all the way through? Can you explain that. You're sure so this is a french historian. His name is, there would be an English should be Michael through covered me shocks, as French Michel Foucault who co is maybe the most influential intellectual of the last fifty years taught in every major university in United States he's a hero to most many people on the left. He was a anarchists meaning that Marxism and socialism we're not radical enough for him. If you wanted even more a libertarian or or of of of Marxism and the eight

curse. Big idea is that really mental illnesses a mess? That's just way of stigmatizing people that are different, that's a complete! We crazy idea. We know mental illnesses. A thing my aunt suffer from schizophrenia. It often manifests that particular mental illness manifest when people are often in college. It's a clear Jim. They can Burma interactions of denial of it is really itself crazy. He also was the also condemned rehabilitation he condemns where we had got word may going with prisons, which is to try to rehabilitate prisoners, Eve in prisons. Criminal justice system in general, like many, Nicole less people do as basically away that capitalism enforces its oppressive system on the people so he was a really toxic influence on the way people think and away. The radical left thinks he is ideas helped to lead to basically,

empty and people out of mental hospitals without any support systems for vessels will ever so so again, help me after stand. The thinking has it. I I don't you have a hard time. We voted this way. Kennedy said in, like nineteen sixty one an error, only becomes a mistake when you few refused to correct it, so all kinds of errors being made, but they're all be yeah you into mistakes, because you have the evidence. This does not work, And then you have to say: ok, now it's intentional! Now you are intending to do these things. What is the attraction to these guys and end to this philosophy and the attract. two. Just let it go on and on and on with data pie, link up, seeing it doesn't work. That's

they were so yeah you have to the conclusion: is that that's what they want? They wanted not to work so The motivation for the co and the radical left is that they hate the system. They think this system is the capitalist democratic system that we have, and frankly, even France is more socialistic than we are even the french system was capitalist for them, so they hate the system may be. This system is responsible for creating victims. They have in their minds this romance. utopia and this It goes back to Jean Jacques Rousseau in the eighteenth century. So these are all marks in the nineteenth century, since these are this radical tradition, there's a utopia in the back of people's minds, where there is a world that exists without any suffering or any inequality and the current system is viewed as as evil, because there is inequality. It's a part of our societies, and so there this,

coming from a really it's coming from hatred. Unity the emotion that that it comes from I will say we were at home from hatred hatred of the system, hatred of inequality, hatred of what. yes, so it would start. I didn't I, they get in some of the Anna San Francisco O, because I drawn some of the work secondly, to sharpen height but basically starts with sadness ad cruelty of the world. It then becomes I know the anger and a kind of damn ideology that blames all the inequality and suffering of the world on something that we imagined to be a system is on a really dumb idea that there are some utopian alternative where under which there would be none of the suffering or oppression and then again in it goods from their into that. You just get a kind of what I call a victim idiotic.

Energy which is a much broader ideology than Marxism, which was really focused on workers. It gets to basically the idea that there you can categorized people in the world real people, you can cattle I see them as victims or oppressors and victims be given everything with no accountability or responsibility, and Russia should be punished and things should be taken from them. and so you end up with basically a denial of things in the real world. I just the most the best email I've received so far after running San Francisco was from a psychologist who worked with, Mentally ill in San Francisco for many decades- and he said be so old homeless advocates Uganda's this radical left activists to put themselves forward, as defenders of the homeless he's, they they get up and they would basically defend the right of mentally ill drug addicted people. Too. Strong themselves and destroy the system around them biggest

Viewed it as a as an asked you to the system. They viewed it as a way to stick the middle finger to the system which they hated. But in that sense it's so sinister, because what the radical left is doing so, progressive are doing. Is it there? actually using people are using people as a means to an end at the end, is the destruction of western civilization. That's why they keep attacking and situations that you need to have a civilization, whether its mental hospitals or police stations or jail. in prisons or you Diversities lose your things that you need to have a functioning civilization per or quite honestly, just the basic under standing of mankind. You is so destructive to say, you're a victim and you can only grow And I or my people take care of these people and get them out of your way that

the most shit. Evil thing you can teach you have to teach people You can do anything and you're, just you to take the first step. I can't take it for you. You have to take it, but I'll be there need blaming other people and just why Why are you in this situation? Maybe it's bad luck. Maybe you have done some bad choices, but there empowering and I I look at the way the left Tom. about African Americans and talks about homeless people of color the people on the border, his speech, makes- and I think my gosh I mean- who do you think you are MR white politician telling all of these people, What they need to do and what they need to do is for you to keep all

bad guys away from them, because you know what their life is like it. It's it's awful people, people in in in Chicago that have ass, their children from gunfire, I honestly, I would feel like the Father, who was they they tried to arrest and suck is a sick. The FBI on to the the the School Board, where his daughter was arrested and cover what they had done when he speaks out of the school board meeting. They make him into the villain and some wait, you just say: do you know what I can? I can't do it anymore? I can't do it there. They are Surely injuring While they're saying they're trying to help. and they're doing it yet. Yeah, you got it. I think. Look I think most liberals most progressives are then they do

understand. Then they're not sociopath back there in the grip of a religion there in the grip of believing themselves to be compassionate people, but I do think there is hard core Leadership here, that is a sociopath egg. In its view of people as objects, it's a dehumanizing ideology is dead. Empowering, as you pointed out, it's absolutely power hungry because looking to use people as objects and a power game is looking to make people dependent. on them and on the system that they that they otherwise would condemn so I do, I did find many times innocent. There were moments that, where I found them shilling it when I would be speaking to the architects of the policies

gave a sense of the ways in which they were really committed to the ideology and really didn't seem to care very much about the actual human lives that were being sacrificed. Example, though, you're absolutely right. What's at the example of. Well, the biggest one I mean. Obviously, this book is is very concerned with drug addicts who are basically being unable to die on the streets, but I think you point to the other one. I have three chapters in the book on homicides, and we know that you can pay an homicides with police. It's just not that com, cable and we know also by the way we now seen- and twenty sixteen and twenty twenty. This thing where, when you demonize the police, when you demand, when you cut the police, it has two aspects. The first effect on the police themselves. They withdraw policing policing, as is one of these. I interviewed the best criminologist in America, delightful people totally clear about this police, it

Please, no criminals like there's no place, wasn't gonna Hollywood movie, they have a relationship, they know who the likely killers are and they get up in their face talk to them. They interact with them. They spend time with them. and we know that that that works to actually prevent it. Doesnt seem rational, but it prevents potential killers. killing people, though, when the police pull back that results in homicides, and also we know that when the criminals are emboldened, when they are told that the system as against the system. Is racist system is out to get and that the system is evil there more likely to commit harness up. So this is something that's called the Ferguson effect, because, after the Ferguson shooting and protest that lead to black lives. Matter. Protest. Point: fifteen: we saw an increase in homicides. That was spectacularly confirmed in twenty twenty tragically confirmed its. Why twenty we ve now

in homicides rise. Thirty percent in the United States as a whole rose on the roads, fifty percent or more sixty percent. it rose in port lender is thirty percent in Oakland so we're sacrificing african americans- and it's not just young man- It's also kids getting shod its people's lives by centres being killed, and so the radical left is sacrificing african American on the altar of radical anti police anti civilization agenda? It's absolutely depraved its despicable act new, strong enough words denounce be it. policing movement, there's nothing progressive or liberal about it in the best sense of those terms totally radical everybody, I came away from doing the researchers San Francisco being like Everybody should be pro police, Police are just good. The more police you had, they evidence is overwhelming narrow police. You have, I'm you have, and the less crime is not just that. That's good

of itself. But if you're worried about mass incarceration as I am, I don't want a lot of good a prison that should go to prison. maybe order by mass incarceration. Then you should be police. He saw what prevent crimes from occurring in the first place, so Let's talk about the end of the book talk a little bit about the conservatives and what they can do, and and also like to know what. We ve done wrong. What is turning people like you off that we ve got to stop doing, I think the first thing in and by the way I interviewed in the best conservative mines on this issue- I repeat, Christopher Real roofer, whose now a celebrity because he saw a single handedly taken down critical race theory before Christmas. after critical race theory, he was a brilliant journalist documenting the drug addiction crisis. The open dry seems that we miss label homelessness, which is a propaganda word.

I interviewed arena because refiner view Scholars with the Manhattan Institute, which is a very thoughtful unimportant centre, ready taken New York, the First thing is just that. I think Republicans and sirdars need to have an urban agenda Giuliani is the major figure here. So what everything your Giuliani today July, obviously as mayor of New York, clamour really cleat, yet clean it up, shut down the open drug scenes allowed for the redevelopment of of battle oh god, neighborhoods about areas so There is a tradition here, but I think a lot of conservatives have Qana withdrawn. you know and even moderates well just leave. They just check out would become a look down on cities and I get it. I live in the suburbs and I love the suburbs, and but we need aid cities because cities are places of. Innovation is often workpeople, no inner twenties before they have a fan. Your kids to do business. They worked really hard, it's a social environments, very important for entrepreneurial ism and innovation. So the first thing is

to care about cities and have an agenda for cities. Within this can thing. Is we ve got to get beyond this liberty? This done libertarianism, I'm a big. as you know, Glenn, free markets and apocalypse. Never I defend markets as important for sending the price signal Teresa, scarcity they promote innovation, citing markets are huge importance, but there's some. Things for which there is no market There is no market for treating people with schizophrenia. You just now a treat him. You know my aunt had schizophrenia and she had issued a pretty darn good life for somebody with that particular mental illness, which is a pretty devastate mental illness. This does not. This is not a personal data. Is not the same thing as somebody who's a twenty five year old who just got addicted to heroin. They need two separate things, but I think we have to get beyond the idea that there's a libertarian or a free market solution to some of these mental illnesses. It's they're going to be covered by at least a hard. That's if you're only supposed to be covered by taxpayers.

doesn't mean that we should require things of people, because even people pretty serious mental illnesses can can do things like they want to do things they want to. They want to be, they want their lives to have purpose and meaning and value. But again that's not something that is obviously is going to be a market provision and it's cuz there's going to be a role for government there. Show me. The role for government should be smart. I shouldn't just be we're doing now. What we're doing now and progressive cities is, as I've inscribing just giving people things with no obligation, and so I can conceal the main thing concerted can do is come in here and focused on the basics, you need carrots and sticks When I asked the main character in my book, a social worker in the Netherlands who was responsible for helping to shut down the open drug sees the open drug markets. He says carrots and sticks the social

workers and the police should work together. You know if you have one of the things that the progressive I've done, that they went too far on as they witness and social workers by themselves, without a police officer to respond to two: who calls around somebody with mental illness in a state of psychosis. Often, but often does it eighty percent of the situations or are potentially dangerous. So you really in police with social workers. Together it it seems obvious, but that is a radical idea for progressive and I think in the past, Conservatives haven't spent more time, thinking about it, so I think we need to get back the basics, carrots and sticks and social workers break up the open air drug scenes. Shelter first travel first to housing earned, that's the that's the success sequence that we need for for the cities. I have to tell you. I think, if I think A lot of conservatives would be for that. If you included workfare that there

there was, you have two women who take responsibility. If you know, if you knew a place to stay great, the many you start running it down. You're out. You know that you ve got to take care of things. You have to earn your way. and see if that was part of amicus, how people how many kids have become suicidal because they ve been it huh for the last two years. They haven't had any thing to do. You know you sat around and do nothing. It destroys there's something about hard work. You know Yes, even for me, I go out and I work on a fence or I buy. I actually do physical labour its invigorating, compare to even just mental behavior. But when you are labour, but when you have neither mental labour or physical labour, you just waste away

you waste away in there's no self esteem. Our four hundred percent agree hundred percent agree. We only physical labour, this is why, when this is obvious, I mean it's a year it's bad for people, it's bad for self esteem, to be given things that you did not learn. We know this is also true for raising children. Children should be involved in keeping the classroom. Clean that I notice in Japan is it. The kids were heavily involved in maintaining the classrooms and doing physical labour saving for homeless shelters. Same thing. For that you I saw mentally ill people. They wanna have a purpose to remain Ivy League us have: maybe they had they can't. You know that everybody has to be a computer program are, but everybody should be involved in keeping where they clean, everybody should be involved in keeping where they live, clean and orderly. You know one of the most beautiful books ever written on homelessness was written about guys that maintain

their drug habit, they roll attics, but they did it by collecting when I'm cans and bottles they would disappear how it gave them a high that that was much more lasting, much deeper than the high they got from drugs. There's no reason that we should not be doing that for everybody who is getting care at that at the time Spare Diamond Glenn. I would even go further. I think. Maybe you introduce this idea in agriculture just this idea of national service. I just I see what happens in Israel. I think one of the reasons is really get such good training is that they do. They are required to be some kind of national service, Glenn California. We have a lot of forests that have been badly managed and maintain. No, we should have some kind of service, for he had, of course, all blamed on climate change. Issues that we haven't maintained our forests, there's plenty of work and care for young people to do right by getting the getting the ability to go into those forests in just clean the underbrush only

things that are dead, you'd, never get the permission. Do that you'd never get the permission to do that? Well, I Well, let's disagree on our part of that I have. I am a bit more, I keep. Some of them idealism. Am I liked being myself a surprise? the whole idea list or, as an idealistic pragmatist. I do think that the public once said include not in an yes, the radical left doesn't want I'd sober we're still talking about seventy seven. eighty percent of public that support all These things, including some kind of work requirement, including an absence require you're gonna get your own apartments at the taxes subsidy. You should have to earn it through accidents through making progress on your personal plan, which in every case, faster, include work. This is something the dutch and the Portuguese are very clear about. Work is essential to building up our character and our self esteem and a big part of recovery from addiction. Well,

music to my ears. Michael, thank you so much We'll talk again. The name of the book is San Francisco. I know that I've learned a ton. I can't wait to read it myself. Thank you. So much Michael Thanks for having fun, just a reminder. I know that I've learned a tongue. I can't wait to read it myself. Thank you so much Michael extra me when just a reminder: I'd love you to read and subscribed podcast passes on her friend discovered by other people.