On paper, today's guest- and I are not couple for a pod cast. We come from different places politically, but our common ground is the search for truth when truth become subservient to our tribe, we're all doomed. My guest on this pod cast is a rare breed and non fiction. Writer who tries to report the truth rather than trying to score political points. His work focuses on technology and entertainment. Future kind of technology topics he's the best selling author of console wars second to tender and the battle that define the generation. That book is being developed for tv by producer sets Rogan and Evan Goldberg. His latest book is called the history of the future archeologists Facebook and the revolution that swept virtual reality. It is a fantastic book that tells the dramatic story of a guy named polymer lucky he's the founder of the virtual reality company opulence that eventually ran a foul of Mark Zuckerberg in Facebook for having the wrong political world view. This is fascinating, no matter who Palmer Lucky was for in a presidential campaign, but is also a timely story that reveals the dark side of big tech politics that no one in mainstream media has bothered to dig into until my guest today he's not a guess that you will see really on any mainstream media. He was in a list gasped for his last book. They can't even find the alphabet for him now. So what is the history of our future? Will we be truth tellers or will we remain caged by our own tribalism? Our guest for that answer is Blake J Harris

so if I would have told- do that. You'd be sitting at this table with me and twenty. Eighteen, if I would have said that to you and twenty sixteen. What would you have said, I will said, the EVIL, Glenn Grandma Southern like that right right, but then and I'm sure we'll get into it, but if I ve learned one thing over the past few years worked out this book, it's too definitely be sceptical of what you re people on the media so back about twenty yards. A I'd I'd be very interested in meaningful and I don't know they will get along on much, but we did yeah? I guess I don't the problem. In fact, I just have to start with complementing you how rare you are. Find somebody that actually we'll tell the truth when it personally hurts

There's you know, I know, I know a lot of people like now tell the truth, but when it comes down to it now they won't know they want. Because they have an agenda or because, in your case, you're gonna be destroyed. That's that's what facing you we're going to destroy you how hard he said to tell the truth. I I still think it's it's. My job it seems hard for other people to do it. I don't think I'm that special of a journalist I really appreciate the compliment but when I signed up to write this burger be a storyteller and in turn telling nonfiction stories? I that's just what you do do solve so, but never leave. It occurred to me in terms of considering the car, whence is thinking about that the media. That love me for my first book would pay me

this wine or that I will face pushed back from Facebook. Or any that stuff. Myra HANS was just aren't. I need a line up my next book and make sure it's not based on getting access to a tech company. Not not. Maybe I should, besides the truth, to make it. There was never any time that you thought this is not worth it I just do not tell the truth. And and that's I don't think, that's less about integrity and more just about Palmer. In two ways seeing what happened the Palmer Lucky, seeing how much became heated I can valley, seeing how Palmer was an end vitriol directed him from them from the people, As I told you that MIKE I, it was area without bad for me, so I felt like I can't complain of heating complain, only others just his character, I, you know him probably better than almost anyone in the world. This point talking him every day of the last few years, except for babies,

girlfriend now fiance and I just couldn't you to do right by him in all I need, the story I yes, he supports a politician that I find there she have quite right, but the thing that did bond being part of the reason why I've in rhetoric I believe I was selected to tell the story and get this incredible access remarks Facebook is because I really always bottle of Palmer over our mutual love of the first amendment, I thought that we had I'm about it in in of a virtual reality. Like you know, in a virtual environment, what should the rules me in ocean? Should it be I'm right. I'm hydroelectricity echo my house, my rules thing. So if you want to use. A lot of four letters, that's fine or about Raynham Edward sets up, or these are things I didn't think about. Can they also took them for granted, like? I think, a lot of people and then we can't anymore so The is Toffee was excruciating times, exhausting from me that its part

was less the reception or lack of reception or or the impact on my career potentially or actually, but it was, it was seeing. Facebook lie to my face: demanding a fan of Mark Zuckerberg, yeah and Facebook. I mean I didn't have like ok, yeah yeah yeah, but the boat, but I thought I also very much a question of how would I felt beating you back before I him do you and then from what I read I I do really admire entrepreneurs. So much has so even even like Alex Jones. You I find pretty why I, like you, know these put together a pretty good. Is it anywhere is guided admire that EMU is like the little cartel in a way that no, I really matter but not like fully. I really admire mark for his. Sticking with his mission of connecting people for this company? I will tell you that I met mark and was at face,

I've got my problems with Facebook but he's a genuine feeling kind, the guy you see him when you meet him in your talking to him, he did. He really seems like However, it is trying to do the right thing in all this the company they were doing, and this is how work were try in it, and I you know I know why would I want to add at anybody speech. Why would I want to do it here that I don't wanna control, all that and you believe him and I've stuck up from exactly Bernie. I remember a year until recently I took a lot of heat. Not know, that's not what's happening at Facebook, so I would mentioned when I was on the show that you had stuck up from market that young had the same feeling about him, but I did, and I would have went about for him and then you said you no longer believe in winded that start to change for you that you became skeptical of what he and Facebook versus the actions of what they were doing. You noticed I'm sorry, you can only say all that was a mistake, or that was just a oversight. You can only say that so many times for freedom.

You know I don't think so. I am growing concerned and I want to talk. This later with his his insistence on. I want regulation, no one to pursue wherever says I want the government regulation and- and I have a theory- and I want to pass it by you as we go. But let's, let's start with with Palmer Palmer is this is greatest American. This is you, don't think of Steve Jobs being able to start apple again. You don't I mean, what's his name, Microsoft, bill gates, said you couldn't start. Microsoft today So you don't think of somebody in a little trailer who just got crazy idea being able to become a titan overnight.

Right and it's so Palmer for anyone who read the book or knows Palmer that there was a camper trailer park in his parents driveway in long beach and not a garage cause. You know now there's a stable idea, the apple apple by the thieves and garage everyone sort of visit homage, but you literally, the halting without always think different I think, similarly to think differently, Palmer really is an original love him or hate him ear, knock it you're going to find another Palmer Lucky, and and for me, as a writer, what better way to start the story. Then, with this this kid Lizzie. He was nineteen years old. And by the way, the system to teach. But I was pulling up the novel that I wrote in college when I was twenty one in reading it over the weekend. That's just cuz. I was going through old stuff and I was like this. Is

I've got it. I thought he was smart as well as two years old and Palmer when you started this. Billions are accompanied by some Africa Times because he so precocious and he's just also so himself Fredo we'll get into it later, but a lot of people the ones who still talk to me about power. That usually say they trade excuses, actions and say: oh, but you are young, got into a strong organization like he'll, learn or help mature, and I was like we can agree whether it was a good decision to dinner, elaborate and pressure. Forty years now it to me the same nationality as money could he is himself and that fast as a writer lino those the people but you their interests. Very interesting, so he When did you start tinkering with things? How I mean? How did he integration? So you know the book starts in April, twenty twelve, when he's discovered by John Car, makin, legendary programmer that Listen might know from playing games.

Doom and quick and first person shooters and its pioneer that China, but I was kind of out it fascinating and almost a little unfair to him that the books urgent. Twenty twelve! That's when you found occupy. There is also a whole other story of the three years that lead Staying in I am, we talked about it being like this great American dry. Story, they d dream and twenty twenty twelve or twenty nineteen, and and it's you start with the product, a thing and to get that thing other. Here we go through three years of working on this, so he started in two thousand and nine and for coming protodyne perspective. Tesla to the states here spent decades toiling and working, I mean this has so much that somebody with a good idea in theory Get to market footprint. Finished in three years yeah.

Actually things have changed so much that you can sell it for billions of dollars before even finishing the product, which does the elegant very America in the twenty first century. So our story, but but you're totally right to it, and that's why I love the story not just because I think Palmer's is incredible character and a great proxy for our times and just a great inspiration, but because it is an ensemble story, you know without Brendan arrive his partner, who becomes a ceo and makes the initial investment elderly brand couple you told me I'm thirty six, so he must have been like thirty, two or so you remember, they know each other, they They didn't know each other and that's a credit to Brendan Brendan you received. Definitely is described in the book as, like that scene, back the future, where but Marvin very calls up says he doesn't sound like you get he its call that you gotta check out this Palmer Lucky kid. He dazzled this video game, trade, show and and

then, before even trying a demo already invested like two hundred thousand dollars, which I think you could say there are true believers or he's a serial risk taking, and I think it's a little bit of both, but they really hit it off dinner together. That is critical in the book and really sort of forced out of a lot of what was to come, and I remember, First time I met with Brenda after I was given this access and he asked me back: Missus Tebrick, twenty, sixteen you! What's your vision, the book I said twenty too early essentially it wasn't. You know I had no idea where is going plight. I kind of measures of the marriage between you Palmer between the entrepreneurs in the inventor and and then you know, I think it's interesting. You think that so would mean the same invention, but without people like pregnant, without an endorsement from John Carmack, without always people coming together, Did they wouldn't have been successful? I wouldn't even successful in this way and then you know, but Palmerston one is on the cover of wired the cover of time, the cover of popular mechanics, so people

it's a one and show that least Somerset made amongst the groups, but at least that was positive media coverage compared to what was to come. So tell me tat, about occupy and how big of a leap. This was for the industry sure so Oculist is a virtual reality. Company Palmer's in one of the great things about this book that I didn't have the luxury of my last one, which was from the nineties, was that the eldest archives or allow the suffers archives and giving emails and other changes, but no he had an original website for adolescent describe this as his tale to try to make virtual reality happen. Virtual reality had failed, so times over the past several decades,

because it was for the reasons I mean. First of all, I would say that accuracy did sell the facebook for three billion dollars, but they're not even ass. I success now, even with all those resources, but but largely technology, it is very expensive. That was a huge barrier against this chicken. No problem, you know you're selling, a virtual, headset or goggles are glasses or whenever you, however, whatever form factor is going to be and That's the hardware, but the hardware worthless without a software. That's why MAGIC leap right so their products out to producers. Exactly- and there was something I mentioned Brendan Erebus a year that was one of his ideas with originally Palmer's plan- was starting to a kickstarter and only sell this to people who were enthusiasts like him, and there must no less than a hundred people in the world who carry about virtual reality and Brendan

It wasn't saying all itself to Blake and Glenn just yet let sell to the producers that sell to the developers that we will create this ecosystem and trying to solve this chicken that problem, and there was no de proposition, but that in hindsight was one of the things that are under way to lose a big part of the successful. Knowing your customer. It's also a good thing to contrast to now to fuel get into with with Marken what his vision for we are, but the biggest promoted, safer, iqs right now is that they don't know their customer that the way it's been phrase to me is that I would rather sell a million headsets to the right people and by right means, like demographic we representative group of people there it would sell ten million today to the actual demand, which is This happens with other companies to now it's it's only. It's not really capitalism, it's like activism, slash capitalism! Where are you? trying to supply the man you're trying to create assertive demand, not in the way of like we're, Steve Jobs, tat. You know telling the difference tell me to do.

Between that and am fashion designer that will not make size twelve dresses. Isn't it kind of the same thing there they want their product on a certain look and they don't want it You know the average everyday person, not you. That's a busy good comparison. The especially because, if you, if you look at the thinking with how Facebook has proceeded with they are in a are in error, augmented, reality when I talk to the executives back before I was black body, they immediately there, they had a sample size experience of one major success starting facebook, and so they often thought about. We are in terms of Facebook and one thing that they talked about was at Facebook. Unlike my space, her friends during these other social network companies, Facebook Habit,

most equal mix of men and women, and that was enticing this, like initially social media network, a party in your saying come come on it, and so in that respect, designing addresses very fashionable. People is, There is a comparisons to be made, though, I feel like the motivation is different here. I think that so much the rhetoric at Facebook and some of decision and allow their decision making things based on inclusive III and ends. Doesn't it didn't you see inclusive Eddie? What you really mean is exclusivity, making sure only a certain group, get it and not another group right. I'm a guy I spoke with. Lot of an unjust the people will act, listen, Facebook S, but with a lot of developers lot of white male developers, and they were explicitly told that Facebook was not looking at that direction for four sort of clear which is crazy,

because they are actually creating something. If you won't like you will never even know what these people look like. I guess it trickled down some way, maybe to their aesthetic, but but really this is obviously a much larger cultural question, but it's just so weird that you could watch the godfather now and say you did. This is frankly for cobbler madness and Let me different opinion, then. If you say today in a semi legal like sooner matter and looked like a game of thrones, you watch thrones, and then you see the guy who wrote gaming, thrones you're like why doesn't match right in front of me. It doesn't What difference does that make right? and this is an issue that I care, About a lion- and we are probably pretty align on because I come from the perspective as an artist as a creator. I wonder right up like Palmer, one rate about interesting people of all. Ethnicities generous, I don't ever hear so so

It does seem more and more like. If I were to write a book with a female protagonist, I would be. Concerned about some sort of appropriation or anything along those lines which is really, and to thirty two, why I've got into storytelling and anesthetics to what we ve always been taught from Martin Luther King such mean by the content of my character. You know just just my work now: What are you looking at me for bright and that's you know I. I will say that partly open. This is a great example. The story you asked me like it, was I had by my italian times what right acres all conveying the subjective perspectives. I conveyed why people like Trump- and I dont my trump, but that is partly. I want to re. I wanted to get inside of the people's heads. I wanted to understand that made me.

A person for it, or at least I'm a happier person for for knowing that an end It's just the pin sounding like this experience really did open. My eyes too, Who is about that? Martin Luther King Jr quote and talking to I mean, I guess now, there's another time. I think that, like a lot of liberals, those kind of blind to the to the big divide between million, new laughter, a very progressive laughed and and more of a classical liberal or people me who had always voted Democrat and getting into the more the cultural issues and end NEO, is this really open my eyes up to then, when I talk to my so my ultra progressive friends and bring their quota It's always just there's an asterisk, like WWW, eventually that'll, be the goal, but after all these years, pressure- and I am like I'm but to try and also that the like, do you have a formula like what is it

it's more like well, will know, and we see it, I mean it's not pornography where we know I see and hundreds of millions of people in this country, I think pillar, Gary Cooper, one billion per year it in its not changing hearts its hardening hearts tightening are right. Will you know we we we we, worked so hard to break down barriers between us. We were nowhere near fin, by any stretch of the imagination, but we had made some really good progress to where I live they believe a majority of people, eighty percent really distance, he cut, They didn't, I mean you're, ear good at what you do, I don't really care. I really care, and I think that a lot of that is reversing? Now people are seeing white their seeing black their seeing, Annie gap. There see that, would we

just categorizing people into groups, instead of saying we're all human now what do you bring to the table right and that lastly, and I am sure you are aware of and had your pulse on much earlier than I did and- and that has really become clear to me in the past few years and its really disconcerting partly to because as as a journalist option activity is my Northstar. And when I hear people some of these terrible journalists or justs sceptic say what does not. Is objectivity and then it's like, we can argue with us, should not in the least busily respond like all the rules are out, so we can be as a specific subject as we want to be an end, and I am sorry that maybe there's no such thing is true. The fires are thing, it's true, after twenty put it there, but it's not yet right. All its I've met with joy, less- and this is this- is the norm.

I met with people who come in knowing what they're going to write and and all their doing is just right. Websites. Yes, it is that's a journalist, a journalist could come in and say I think I know what's going on. Are you willing to see it from a different perspective? If your up to something in your like. That's, not what I thought are you willing to say it many are not bright and end If we really do. The journalism aspect to make is that that is one of them. I think, take away from this, but Just think about that, are being my north star in. The more experience I have the more. I feel this way. It's not like. I become more jaded. There's no such thing as objectively, in terms of color blindness cause. You said, aid people are carbines I don't know, I know you just like I mean were not whatever. The number is bad our much urban I'm open,

dear, that some subconscious level. These things do impact us, but that doesn't the rules are thrown out used, that's don't let go. I thought the goal was still color. No, it's amazing to me. We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal and endowed by their credit with certain inalienable rights, among them life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. People say, the opposite about that that Martin Luther king did Martin Luther King said live up to that. Standard. That's our mission statement. This is this is hate king. We got a par ways, because you don't even know who we are. You think we're like you were not like you. We have a whole different idea. We think this, and so we are going to create a government that try is to do that right. If we Accomplish that it's time for a new mission statement, we,

it's time for a reach of ago. This is such a reach for a goal. We are throwing this out and saying, while that what work what we eat, of course it's never worked, but are we getting closer or farther away right now? your children and it is, It's that is easily aspirational about living mission statement and I'm definitely two Burnham thousand try to turn new mission statement. I think good challenge. I think it's a good comfort, tat, that's the goal that that's, but hopefully, societies trying to provide you with plight. Do not allow people who just have seemed to have this mentality, that that seems foreign to me where it's like. Well, if not everyone, not IRAN has life liberty, impressive happiness or does have an equally, so we need to go back to the drawing board at an end, I let live together, you surely cost also of ok. Well,

Ok, maybe this isn't the best way by which the better way, Oh, I will give that surgical said. This is the worst system, except everything else, the evident in its true it's true, I shall yeah aren't so I want people to read the book, because it's a fantastic book it, but it changes I thought tell him this great story of this entrepreneur and tack, and now it's all working and then Donald Trump appears right. I mean, of course I could never Prognosticated got to get in trouble, be part of the in Turkey is going to run for president, though, to Palmer's credit president, we Palmer's visionaries as people seeing the world differently and sort of being a little head of the curve eyes, it's amazing that in March twenty eleven Palmer, posted on line that

Donald Trump us about running for president in the twenty twelve election that he was very supportive of that. That would be a great idea. I remember- is: seventy percent Isaac leaders It is from the point of tea and he's acknowledge some twenty eleven, as I could I thought you seen him come down the escalating this credits. It yeah there's this crazy, but he sought way in advance. Him and- and I think Piercy Armada soon, but Peter channels. Why are people that I spoke with? So some Eric he's unfazed report. But but you know, you talked about his trump support, an end These are the kinds of people who are you. Of course our luck aspect to the success of entrepreneurship, but then you see all these people see things differently in a way where, They can feel something becoming a part of the Zeitgeist before other people do so when we saw Trump come down the escalator while ago, my guess is going to be a joke for the daily show.

They see actually how can resonate and they all end there. Three european jello. They I've arresting other data. That was interesting was, Mark Andreasen, another famous venture capitalist from entries in her hee hee. Given interview not with me, but it was a pot Paul somewhere listened to in twenty. Seventeen is shortly after Palmer was fired from Facebook and heat. About how the lead This is a guy who knows everyone in Silicon Valley, any so there's only two people. I know a Silicon Valley who are publicly tromp supporters or who are willing to send their term supporters Palmer, Lucky and Peter TEAL, and that's obviously a problem for a lot of reasons, because I think, there's more than two were unwilling to say it, but its edges. Maybe now here we aren't twenty nineteen less.

Two years after he said that and both Peter and Palmer out of Silicon Valley and and it's not cause, they don't like the geography there. It's goes, but others too have gone on. so he posts his support for Donald Trump and it's not crazy, sit when he first comes out and says I'm for down trumpet start these, not I was crazy back and twenty eleven cats who would hear you. I know what I mean when, when this story really started to take, he sold his business to oculists and he's not like you know in the gear, and you know, walk in town. Facebook right, you know with flags is actually he. He is much more like how I remembered politics. When I was growing up where I remembered I once home at my home economic teacher which I I was suspected

really class anymore, even live as very useful to learn to skills- and I remember asking her was you voted for in the election? I guess I was an eighth grade. It must have been ninety six and she and Madam you, like that's a very personal thing, to ask: why? Don't you ask you about power? that sort of Palmer's mentality, which once he was just a term that it was a villain, everyone thought all at him being sneaky, doesn't want to talk about politics. Now, let's just they matters, he was there do virtual reality stuff in due course text of that was irrelevant, but But yeah he hadn't no qualms with with publicly being a trump support or not after the escalator intruder tropical one of things I find fastening that it's not in this additional book, but I will put in a later addition cause, I'm still getting. Information, more information, fortunately no contradictory information, but I'm so getting other called details I want include is that in April of twenty, sixteen Palmer went Tromp rally in coastal Mesa- and

Three- and I know that is not because he told me, but because there was an NBC video talk about protein, just outside of the rally in Palmer's. One people interviewed as like Europe is the rally what was unlike or what the protesters like so so you know problem being It was hiding gay wasn't how exactly was hiding it, she knew. This was gonna, be on the news, potentially millions of people to potentially non, but like he had no problem hiding it and We flash forward to five months later when he makes this ten thousand donation to organizational, doesn't anonymously, which people than say he did it, because he was. Thinking about it or he was trying to cover upper whenever they say, and you have to ask yourself all than what changed over the five months. Answer is Peter TEAL, the answer is that in in between that was the republic in National Convention in twenty sixteen Peter so there and came out as a trump support as a gay man from supporter and an added people on Facebook want so

facebook quantity and fired from the board of direct important Facebook, for the only reason, was just that he A of origin shouldn't I mean, not a trump supporter at that time and and I saw that- and I thought I dont understand what Peter is see here, but but a cool moment. What a cool moment, a gay man very successful to stand up in front of a whole bunch. People that supposedly hate gay people and he's got- this warm reception and he s beaks openly about it. This great thing may not like. His candidate, but this good moment. I totally hurry am because, because Some of my reluctance over the years to embrace republican and in answer or why I wouldn't be tempted to the dark side- was caused. So many of my close friends her homosexual on there there is always felt like.

For various reasons that they were unwelcome. I think that's it, I think it's who work in progress but but but it, but it's changing and end, and what did I want to mention that speaking you Peter is I feel like someone might say, oh god, like you, guys, are being hypocrites you you say that identity politics is all the staff and, in your giving p extra credit, because you he's he's a gay man or or that you know, No, I think there's something to recognise when Sarah breaks a wall and and Donald up and Peter TEAL broke, a pretty big were pretty big wall totally agree, but but it just remind me of something that Peter once said to me where it will be time, diversity and he said, is I don't get me wrong? I think diversity, Makin Beaver For me already, he beheld the just was that these are diversity is, is important issues. On the list of like forty thing analysed, to make company successful. It's like the fortieth most important. So it's not that we should protect.

Like diversities, are relevant. We just need to get our priorities straight, and I think that there's a lot of merit to thinking about things that way where and diversity. Firstly really counts when it affects you're thinking. If I'm, if I have I can't relate to being a gay man. Ok diversity is important because they have a different viewpoint in being, but we're looking for exactly the same view point just in a different body What it does- and I said, like you know it give GM makes every car exactly the same. Just puts different bodies on France, a Ferrari. Nobody, not it's. It's a gm see truck trilogy now, one thing. It's kind of sad scary, no more so sad, but but you think like LEO of group think is not that crazy, we're all humans. We all want, in others

the fear and Jane the kind of pushes in these directions. We want to be that is an amber society, so makes sense why we have. This instinct put it so weird to me that in Silicon Valley, where you had Steve jobs and the sort of this think different ethos, this rebellion mentality, and now it's like every rebellion. But I just imagine like fifty fancies- and it's like here- we're all rebels exact same kind of rambles, a Ryan. So it's like really and that's what I'm really fastening with this book among many aspects of what why be in retrospect, that it didn't swerve the way did, because I thought on values. This renegade place of people who thought differently, and it's like none. I think differently. But as long as it's the same way, and and and then you know just thinking about just taking it. Back of like you know to America has always been such a great place for innovation and

and another dinners? And it's not a shock and allow these tap tech companies have been homegrown and thrive here. But what does that mean for the future of of technology and our leadership or or of the of the younger younger people out there that the product- and it is likely to go suckin valley to disrupt. If, if you have to do in a certain way and not really disrupt, and it also is you know So it's why cloning eventually is really bad after awhile, while cause there's no diversity at all, just dies out cause, it's just that it's not capable to adapt to anything else, if you're, not if you're, in including everybody in that it does it it's it's of ripe for disease right he sent yeah quickly, went wrong as it was a few years ago when you met with Facebook and with Mark, but I I did I feel like I remember you saying,

there are some talk about. Oh there should be a certain number of conservative people are needed and use castle and ended, and it was then you know that Denmark is doing exacting. We stand this is so urgent. Member really look respecting you say that, because that is another point. I got into a lot of trouble for ice there, forget. I was sitting right here with Mark big long table all these people and started in on well. We need to have quotas for people down there, and I looked at my work and I looked back down like this. No, we don't need growth, not serving ass. Finally, we're not the sad again, let's furthest, let's just to each other right, which is get to know each other. How about you not now higher conservatives if they really the right person right in what you just recruit for the best person right and then that's where the book really did just become about discrimination and unlike out

it s in our lives temptation. I told you before you it's not that farmers and incredible Human and he's going on to do successful things, but I've people say oh, why should I your bad for him. He's he's multi, multi, multi, millionaire. He's getting always now is not a company, and my point is not to make you feel bad for him is to see that he just represents. It's happening in so many other ways, but he's a visible example is example that after found, rapidity always understand where he's coming and how many people have had this to them, on a much smaller scale that don't have right billions of Diana millions of dollars, but I got a lot more and more all the time right, an end and the different and one of the key distinctions to me totally with the elimination conservatives in Silicon Valley is that at least

before the sort of became more of an issue and people realize it was wrong to discriminate- or at least efficient, probably say it is they love? You got no problem saying it likely. We just well: well, we know that consumers are the wrong runs right, whereas they would never say that about somewhat of a different gender or different religion, because they, the least, have attacked to say to save I think that this was like it was so it was so beyond the pale to be conservative that they don't even have to put the heirs of formulating is of the data as ours. Way of looking at the world so when did you, because when when they start a happy went down. Trump just a little bit of the story. Palmer is told to write Us- something that he didn't believe If by Mark Zuckerberg when we go there and then tell me where you came in where you're like way? Well, you're first thing that you heard they are thinking you're old. It am, I

This can't be it right. There also so I'll tell it from about gives a very brief background that in Scipios, timber, twenty second, twenty sixteen. We're all leaving to tell. If my purse, I got a bunch of text messages on September 22nd, two thousand and sixteen hits for me, six clock, pacific and it's all you p m this evening of that the twenty second A few days after Palmer had just turned her think twenty three, but are twenty four, and and I was much- is being a girl. Your book in trouble because there is a daily beast article with the headline Palmer. That's the headline is Facebook billionaires secretly funding trumps mean machine? and between them article in the fifty other articles that speed up over the next twenty four hours from from from your if this morning, just like Brenda blogs, it was business. Insider wired diverge always places

They were saying that Palmer had been funding this troll army that was making means and that everything you seen that was the sergeant stick: anti semitic hateful. That Palmer was background in Ethiopia euro that he was like funding. This thing, which was most let's go back as it's my understanding arena book that was actually just responding to something that the left, was doing putting up these billboards that were, if tromp was, rich how come he didn't buy this bill breath like TAT and Oh, he was just like that's funny and I'm on the other side, and we should do that to write- it was so I wasn't We who hasn't it machine and it wasn't that these were not bad things that that they were putting out where they my main lines of the holder, but but the old he don't agent organisation called Nimble America in the entirety of nimble America's existence, which would have been started only five days before this happened all they ever.

Just put up one billboard in Pennsylvania, with three words too big to jail and character of Hillary Clinton. Face like you is tat. If you her brow that problem you can with data is like as team as soon as you get Adam said if Jefferson is elected president, our children's heads will be on pikes and blood will refund throughout history it. So I need to jail. Is the assets over Devlin Niven in that territory and one of the interesting things and so this organisation Nemo America was sounded by it an individual who I interviewed several times throughout the course of the book. Because I was really curious about his perspective, you he was the one who started this, and I don't mean he easy to hear Mr Mann- that he's a pseudonym pursued them from the book as he didn't want any professional consequences, but I will say that after years of speaking with him and interviewing over the book, I finally met him in person

we can a half ago? And I met him and his wife and his two guesses and, as is waivers Filipino hee hee, you described in every articles are white supremacist and I guess maybe some waits crisis could have Filipino. Why do not seem unlikely to me but like like that he's out, awaits a premises. I well that my life on that I am always shocked. Even with Palmer, I'd have journey, as the ones that we are still a long stay with me say number one position that, after two hours, if that was the biggest wasted time, they say is Palmer, white supremacist. I say I say I can't It was in his heart, but as someone who knows better than it was an oral absolutely not theirs there is no evidence to support this and then they would have been explained Here's! What animal America actually was here as well, did hears. You know the first few people at Palmer hired an oculist were

an indian guy and asian guy, bisexual like like this. If you're looking for Hate, Palmer's, not source that neither the guy and then for two hours, with this one political rotation, the guy says he ever what's the smoking gun like this morning? I did this proves, it's not true note do no such thing exists and then he walked away sceptical as well spent two hours talking this guy. He clearly was there's no way. I could say that. Could changes and can be certain of something. Even hasn't on the research, and that's that you just go. How do you that had to have. Boggled your mind because you knew a lot of these people are respected the journalists and They knew you they don't. You are not a dope. You ve got a good. Reputation and your saint none other guys. You got it all wrong. How

I mean really such as has happened in me to it sucks when you find out the guys you hold up and go Lakota, you come are already guy right, Mosen you're, like ok I'm not with them. That's axe right, yeah, I I felt a little bit prepared for that because I saw what happened the Palmer and I could look ass. If anything happened to me, I knew would never be as bad as him so having this cut wasting two hours my time, realising that this approach is not speedier as we work on the spot, not the worst thing in the world. Maybe that help my knives for information in a book- and I was there- I thought about a lot- was George Orwell's, took animal farm he wrote an original forwards and about it was not included? I don't think so included that you know that look, is about the centrally the dangers of totalitarianism and and and and right wing, that's nationalistic thinking, but he'd,

this forward about Lee dangers of liberal totalitarianism and how it's much more subtle and how he wants it. You know he wants critical things about the law, and when he was democratic. Social sitting are socialists but like he was. This is critical things in the same spirit that I I'm sooner- that help the cause and people publishers didn't want such they visual. Like that's just not done, we don't do those things, and so there's this like This chilling effect of of of people no not to like they know to ignore me because I'm not showing the party line and to your question about what what it was like you I mean it. Fun you ve been through it, I'm sure much worse. Then I have but It also is sort of like affirming, like I'm ok. I am spending speedier we work in this book, I'm doing William

Gordon here, because I'm not going to maybe change that guy's mind. Hopefully I will, but I'm going to change other people's minds, or at least I'm going to get the truth out there, and I think that some people will actually go through the metamorphosis that I did that actually saw but it was what it was all through. The lies in the media and data really is just a matter of it's all, so much people who talk so much about that's for others and empathy. To me as a tellers like just understanding the perspective of someone else, and so as long as are not acting in bad faith. Generally, I think you should be respected. Of different opinions and end I do think of the book you ve helped get into so many where people's hands, the reviews are much. There is my first time. I've really look at very good reviews bilaterally o successful yeah about it, but not, but people seem to be loving it and then seem to be. The message is getting through.

Get important. How did you get? How did you get so much access, Two emails that never well. I guess the good thing about start ups is that really multiple founders and they usually end up not not not that being the best of friends, and they all want to make sure that they get their state of the credit and you can. Work amongst them to try to set. That were what you need that now, I guess there's not ass. I should start at the end of the book like Mark you redeem and get to about, but NEO at the end after this Articles in Akron articles came out parliament's right statement saying that ISA tromp, and these articles were wrong. He was not allowed to post. Statement, daddy Adipose, a statement that was written by Mark saying that Palmer's per Gary Johnson, which was not true, and and that port was a whole other getting

finding out the truth, and that was a thing. Are you and I guess I felt a really answer your question, but what it was like for me. I knew the Palmer and at that point was a trumps porter. I found it hard to believe that he had given my dismay, hateful that seemed out of context you know I got to be open to the possibility. So I did my research. I talked to him about whatever he's allowed to talk to me about cuz, there was no, I do have a good relationship in, but for legal purposes and for at that point, keeping Zuckerberg secret purposes. There is a lot that that you couldn't say, but I do remember being very surprised that he would say he's a carriage ounces where, when it wasn't, because because honesty is so important, Palmer Lucky, he really is like a principle person who, rather you know today on fighting beer, but stay our principal, then than sort of exile, idle obeyed and an end get his objective and then I noticed was that you know because like you. I got so many emails in the course of running this book, and sometimes people would give me

to avoid a paper trail, they would take photos of the emails and send them to me and I would try them, and so I have a lot of practice: transcribing email chains that often Palmer was on an I hated the fact that he doesn't such such annoying thing uses to spaces after a period which is an old school. A typewriter thing. You you you, I had so much respect for you, because I wrote you an email and euro back, and you said that this is how I knew Palmer, didn't write the email, because you do the same thing. I put two space between the barrier. I don't you use like three spaces Sunday about you, and I know- and I noticed that palm- that the debt of everything postponement had ever done prior to that had spaces after a period, but this one, that's it things that didn't they were coming for. Him was had once based

which was a mistake that secretary in and is made that said at that point, I think like Hobbs, who done it and if I go to the top, I assume that Palmer Like worked with appear the party and air and serve gave them more of the baton. I assume that he was on board with this I didn't realize it was against. As well and then it went all the way up to mark, What ended up happening was like a forty year so later and and I'm working towards, the end of the day of the latter half of the book, And- and I had this great relationships and contacts at Facebook and- and I said to them that I I'll call you Palmer is no longer the company. They use fire, but you guys say he exiting Monseigneur. They met either way. I need to provide some explanation for what happened. I can't just say this: guy who's been, main character. Your pages are now is not here, so I really,

impress on and how important it was that I got more and more information and end that you seem to, I would assume they went I can hardly know you're gay, we gotta, give us guy story and- and I got a story of of- of how Palmer chose to leave and was given to me, not just by one person but by several people in a systematic way. That was meant to definitely provide me with, conclusion of what happened and give me. Information and I'm a journalist. I have one two three four people saying the same thing. And another thing I mention China showed an Palmer couldn't talking about this I know where I'm going out. So even if I sought suffers fishy, I Is a power, Species is wrong. He's I'm sorry, I'm not talking about that. So I was

the Mai Spidey sense was like something's wrong here, but I dont know how to get to get to the truth, so as you know from the book I have, narrative, nonfiction, writing style, which I dont a tribute to codes to the person the provided to me, but to the actual speaker I want. You to feel like you're in the room in the minds of these people, and so I had a feeling that they taking advantage of my writing style in that it would never traced back to them There are essentially laundering this misinformation through me, these executives at idols and Facebook that were telling me the same story that I believe is complete, or at least more might be false, and so I did wrote- we call it a fake chapter, a chapter that was just a up Q and a with one of these executives- and I told them- look It was after tat. Crews had asked Zuckerberg during the the hearings about Cambridge

let it get stuff he about Palmer Palmer aside for political reasons and marks at know that and nothing to do with it, and I said to these people that you know now, there's like wise. Red speculation that politics has something to do with it. You guys. I'm all told me that it had nothing to do with it and I believe you of course, but I do- and I don't want the this is a really important topic, so I dont want, what's in the book to be, lay Harris authors opinion I wanted to be straight from the horse mouth now showing an ado. Six chapters there are just two unaids with executive and I got really is the first one is really an answer that I was very proud, and so I said that to them and then a media. They got a colleague in any like tinge of unsound when you talk and that led to the end with, within a matter of days they told their run a facebook innocuous speak with me, so that alone of Christian confirm that my hunch was correct, but it did give

a strong sense that I might be a game. The ammunition, to go to a lot of people that were in actual US and Facebook who felt that Palmer had been wronged, but been willing to speak with me or had been willing to get me documents because they were full of losing their job, but once I said like look here, The lie, oh, here's, the information being told, I think, is a lie, this what's going on in the book, unless you guys help me- and they really did sterile, the plate, and I appreciate that it was people, transporters and and and Hilary supporters. I know what people were voluntary as information to me not because we are trying to help the team, but because they felt that it happened upon. I was wrong and after what they got me I completely agreed and, and I had trouble believing

that it really that mark personally wrote the statement I mean like no, you verify that China Maitre protect people element. I can say that there was an email, came from. There is an evil that came from the general the General Council at Facebook that went to pay where's attorneys. That said, here's the statement mark person He wrote this wow, arose. I guess trees was it. He said The delay was drafted by Mark himself, some to do too if even case that might mean selling Lebanon by like and I was like, oh my god- that I couldn't believe that I can one can believe that market We do that that he would micro marriages and in force for to lie,

also consider that you really answered a problem with the truth, and then I but I can believe that he was so stupid or his lawyers are stupid to put in writing like if you guys are going to be. You know, you're digital mafiosi, early release, these version at least be good. So. He loses his job? He he loses his baby occupiers. What's the future of occupy, but start there let's This question not really what what

it into its hard to even I agree with the Facebook is: is that, like we see all scales facebook come out? at the same time, they ve had pretty good earnings reports and their stock as rebounded. So I can. This is speculation like that kind of resources, but I can also see we can share on the leaders. Team there being like who cares we get some bad ink but like Saddam, care bottom line. Let's just keep doing Have we been doing what's to stop them? Why would mark Zuckerberg B p deadly asking now for regulation- It is a smart guy. He sees the writing on the wall there. There has to be some form of into it. I think that he sees at its very likely there's going to be some form of intervention in the regulations? Some some some

Somebody's gonna step in from a governmental level and. Why it's good for him to be out front in that and, more importantly, all those things that he ass you like. All the things that he asked our to help Facebook and Google unhurt small competitors, because there is a small competitors and our can be able to comply with the stuff or that argument it's exactly would have. The art did with the big three automakers that point everybody out of business because the big three answered. What do we need, but are we What do you need? Let's? Let's come up with some regulations and they did and they came up with everything that they could do, that the small guy couldn't and put them all out of business. Note look more and to act as it was exactly like that is. It is look at the number of cars. You know Auburn look look of cars. They were made up until the big three, Bakers got together the same thing with beef good rich.

A good year tyres they put great. Air companies, a great tyre company, adding a new Jersey out of business? That was had it? cheaper, tyre and a better tyre, but because the new regulations. They were out this brings me to kind of of frightening. The scenario that I want to run by you. Google, Facebook Apple, Amazon, they have more information on us than Then we would have ever dream. That. We would just hand If you remember saying you know Government asked for me my finger print. I'm not given my finger further, not finger printing people but I'll give it to apple here. Stand there give my face with no my recognised. What we think is raised. Okay, so now, when regulation comes in

he can come in and they can they're gonna be the experts that wash calls Washington knows they need them because its job, such a powerful tool Amazon and everybody else knows they need Washington, so they start to partner you're. Looking at a very different America, when you have it, it is every its, everything I always made fun of of levels. He's gonna be like. Can you stop? the corporation, just dopey Nuno carrying forty five everyone, thanks for the cooperation I like AL shut up, it's what's happening, it's what's happening and Facebook doesn't have to worry about the bill of rights. Amazon, doesn't have to worry about Google does. You have to worry about it, because the bill rights apply to the government rain and

If they decide to ban you and you can't buy products, you can't speak you can do the things that China is currently doing but being done by a corporation great. It's a good points and good concern. My favorite television shows of all time It has a rather what it's called psych and it's about us like detective, the USA Network and ended Police consultants who were allegedly psychic- and I always thought is interesting- to see how the police has certain rules and protocols they have to follow, but consultants it'll, Bulgaria, they decided to walk in that a permanent and writings himself. That's exactly the scenario describing where in the? U S government We are following the rules and guidelines bite. There's there's a mutually beneficial relationship to be had between them and the biotech companies so manufacturing scratch, maybe maybe they're they're getting what they want. They need, and so I think,

Mark is aware of that. That's part of the reason also that that he now he wrote that Abed and in the Washington Post asking for regulation and another isn't too is like this I was to do your job. Banning people they facebook as snap not shown themselves to be carried out. The balls, the internet, more reactive and even people they bandits out like those of other peoples in the worst, things are just easy targets, and so People on Twitter always say: oh Jack, how you letting half an hour or more acquirements happened. How great would it be for marking jack after, like look sought us the government to those guys we're we're the good guys here? and that's gets also to the accountability issue, which has a huge part of this and a huge part of my concern about the future of Silicon Valley the other day, because interesting as argued, how the years twenty forty five zero works, that the corporation

Why would they? Why would they higher still have robots like, like, I think about each other, the big three automakers I dont, know the exact numbers but fight I imagine that their workforce was in the hundreds of thousands, at the heyday, and they were so the biggest companies in the United States- and now you have Google on Facebook, some of the biggest companies United States, their workforce is so small that that part of the answer of where the jobs are going, is that they don't. That is what makes it to me that is made. I've talked about this for years, that that makes the fusion between tech and government so huge At one point I mean tack, has a goal, and I think it's a great goal, one hundred percent unemployment? Nobody to work, you know, ok, but that's not the goal of power. Petitions. Their goal is three point: six or you know zero percent unemployed, so

There goes in the opposite direction at some point. Some even realise this option come back brain when that happens, the attention is the always the weakest in the in the chain and he's going to need a bad guy and he'll say was those people in Silicon Valley in their evil, a IRA gee I and- and there were building these robots they're, putting you out of work Vega, that they're not gonna, be waiting for pitchforks these People know what they're doing they know. What these guys will do that together they they have to to protect each other, and it leaves. It leaves a lot of people out. You know it's it's it's it's corporate socialism. They get wealthy, and they do everything else why we get pregnant wraps

I'm out every year of disturbing infection, but I do feel like the sense I get from from stuff nowadays is that there is a vision of of corporate socialism, where you know, People also see more with the USA. Google than they do things. Of New York or the United States the human race or the human race, and an end like that? I get it. I guess we're stuck the fact like the second facebook is developing a crypto currency which of Kepler currency, one is finding its a tool like all. How do you like But what are they knew? What it was. The plan is at an end, This does feel like they are. Think of themselves, as as as as a government and and out may be good or bad, but it is bears repeating what your pointed like there are bound by the same rules as found by the official rights right. They can silence anyone. They want I may have been only just daily. They did a region

wave of bans, week or so ago end I, like Milo, apple is Jones again. My guess, look very slow is really frightening. Is they went further the They said, EU support them. If your if you're a supporter and you are actively defending them- you also could lose your status on Facebook right. It gets closer to my fear most. It would take a lot. Me to be persuaded that deep platform as a good strategy, undesirables road, like Alex Jones maniac, but he is entitled to a is truth Fleming uses because Alex Jones Alex was actually claimed in two thousand and four or five that I was a CIA operated without that work

put in to the media to cover up nine eleven okay. So, Don't ask me questions on matter. I'll have to do so I have. No love for Alex Aims the same thing with Louis Farrakhan but lie this work has been around my entire life and even crazy things right and I like to hear those crazy things, because he saying I'm too a lotta people right, you I want to know what he saying: saving with Alex Jones Idle. Agree with it. I think it's dangerous, but I want to know what he is saying to people write and no, but he's got an audience. You just make these, People disappear. We have no idea and by the way, to my response, ready to check it out or two not listen to those things. I don't like. Isn't it right? I would be more sympathetic to Facebook. The actions as it was like. You called me

the Glen Back page on Facebook and you're being bombarded with people who don't want in their who are like making your problem. You know like Sally they can they need to have to confront it acts Jones of his posters, page I followed, the solution is but but what I find interesting is they are doing this Removing these hateful- citizens in the name of like try new, reduce extremism. That's produce, hey, reduce extremism and end reading they make manifesto of of New Zealand children as enemies. Recent attacks, the synagogue in San Diego. I know we're not supposed to really fast oak as its first botanic doesn't. I feel like I've. I curious were today think there where they things are coming from and and paraphrasing here about like if they think that their

mentalities somewhat similar Alex Jones where they feel like the mainstream. Media is hiding things from them and that there is conspiracy against people like them, and so is removed? Is removing its Jones or Milo, going to get worse, Isn't that gonna radicalizing, even more like you know, there's a some great movie out and I dont know how close it is sent not follow the England enough, but Bennydeck Comer Bunch cover. Such number, one whatever is in there all accept him, although, except for the handsome Sherlock Holmes, I actually really loved him as after but he's in it and as it is called break and I I was like they're gonna- make them people all look like racists and right, and I watched it and they for me at least as an american overseas watching. I think they did a really good job. They showed that pocket, a people that were racist, that was one group and then there is this other group that just felt like

he noticed listening to me. Nobody is talking to me no, they're calling me this and I'm not that you know to mean this is happening. There are identity Arians out there who are very dangerous, but there are also bull who are like you know, I'm swedish and I'm ok but the idea saying Sweden. Sweden is the greatest of all time. It's just my country and I'm not a reaches for flying my swedish flag. You know domain There are tons of people on both sides. The aisle that feel that and the example now with breaks. It is a way, should have another referendum may wish to have another vote, because you didn't I first one solely works. And we're doing the same kind of thing we are creating. Much bigger problem. I was again Donald Trump and I couldn't understand. I could not understand my audience.

I was so angry with my audience and I have always said I loved my audience because I do there are some of the ballot. I love them lots of audience. There really people their great people, I couldn't your stand when they went for Donald Trump, because I was blind on what I saw and Donald Trump, and I was so angry with him and it took me about six months after the election before I realized, actually love your audience, you sing you do, but you don't because if you loved your audience, you would have said to them. This isn't like you. What L is happening in your life. Something big must be. Happening in your life When I got on the ear- and I said that to them I found out they're scared to death about what happening to their country there their tariffs,

about what's happening their country and a lot of stuff there worried about the same things that many Democrats are not talk about politicians, I'm talking about damage, that's who live in our communities fraid of the same kinds of things and they don't know what to do and no one's listening to him. So when was somebody steps up and says, I'm just like you. Even if he's not at ease, We must not heard, though I know you're you're, totally Ray and I'm glad I'll check out the programme. Will they not Ben come about, but I am glad that they didn't just painted broad strokes of ours to browser you're raises. Does your point: there are people like that Frank Fringe law percentage, but like I did the same thing. I was I was devastated that I did Trump won the election but I also took it. As I hope everyone would inside. Ok like MIKE

eighteen, zero win? What happened here cause I don't half the country are idiots. What what are they seeing that I'm not seeing? What are they caring about that? I'm not caring about and I remember that guy reached some people on Twitter unawares like it all you Democrats, you think I'm a racist cause. I hear that there is a bit like hey, I don't think you're racist. Originally, I'm sorry if I felt like it if I come across our way, an end I remember telling my My friend John, and I said I showed these conversations ahead as theirs: I hear that we're not getting in the media to actually is very reasonable and certainly not with malice like what is happening here and he said oh wow you're doing the thing that we all said we're going to do, which is reach across the other side and actually talk to them. Where is it? Everyone else said that

for every fire and they just don't look down on collusion on we're smarter than them vision that vote anyway or what are they know, and that's that Poland is one of the sadder things these past few years. I can't assets of both sides, imagine a world where the next election, your son Whichever side it is winds. Everything The house, you have the Senate, you have you, the White House, you pay the court with forty new judge, Elizabeth Lul exactly the way you want fifty percent The country is not going to want to live that way. What your plan is a great great question, point. Does both sides? Diet tragically opposed well you're

but I have to become a totalitarian and you're gonna have to you're gonna have to teach those people or Europe. I have to say you know what let's go back to the constitution, because we hold these things to be self evident over here, and you guys work it out. Trying to feel like my initial answer which is kind of like a joke answers reversed civil war and of the ward I feel like so many are liberals like Mozilla. We don't want you like so your own country words like? No, we we leaves were hundreds Twenty five years ago to you, the country to stain eyes. You know you know we stand if I refer here, but now it's like if you're not on board with design idea, we don't want you, it doesn't it's it's antithetical to every in the United States is supposed to be I mean we are supposed to be united. States really care. What California does? I really don't

I don't want to live there. I wanted to live in California, my whole life, but as a business. Some are not living in California, Gay it'll, it'll Bank, to me to live in California. I don't want anything to do with it, so I don't care San Francisco poop in the streets. All you want, I think, you're wrecking a good these, but go ahead somebody else wants to carry. You know: open, carry firearms down the street would you want to do go ahead. I may or may not want to live there either, but that's for each person to decide its its fascinating to me that Vermont, Very little news, twenty eleven, no they did They started their own state, universal healthcare. Gay state run? Universal healthcare did we think that they wanted the government to do. They did it. Happened, twenty fourteen out of money doesn't work, had

increase taxes, I think by twenty or thirty percent the governors. Like that's crazy. We can't do it, so they stopped the reason why we are asking the federal government to do things. Is for one reason why the states California, Do it? Do it these dates, don't have the right to do one thing: the federal government does and that's that's, no print money, lawyers? The second amendment stuff gives the lie to the actual Calphurnia we'd like to ban right guns, but at least right. But what I'm saying is right. You can do any programme, we want you should we should have fifty different laboratories and, as in taxes. I saw something that was working if Vermont could have made a go of that and it actually worked and it gave good health care and it was cheaper and it was in degrading the healthcare idea in

yeah? I want your ears are now all that the country, and this is very broad question, so privileges of cogeneration I'll ever growing up and that movie the warriors like the workers can play in. You got all these different gangs in the New York vector the baseball furies iris thing. Like that's, how you know it states very everyone's doing their own sing end work for them. When did people start? so aggressively. Looking for a federal solution to say like let that do it and it works it works. If it does it does it. Also in some problem, like I really involve started with Theodore Roosevelt, they got really bad with Woodrow Wilson, the worst president. Ever he was massively racist, horrible, horrible, individual and then it kind of reversed itself for a period of time with Calvin Coolidge, who, I think has the best presidents of the twentieth century,

I think it was. I think it was Coolidge. Now it was Hoover, that came in and there was a big storm that had happened and wiped out some part of some southern state. I remember what it was and the federal government for the first time sent in aid and the trucks came and the people in the town actually stood at this town. Road was shot guns and set turn your federal trucks away. We don't want your help. Wow Theodore Roosevelt have up in the in the vault in the library. I have a problem. No peace from Theatre, Roosevelt's presidency as well. This big and it's a Teddy Bear gay ended as bulls eyes all over it was made for kids. And the reason why is made for kids is. He was trying to start a campaign to pay

a shooting range in every elementary school ahead of you know why America rejected it, but so much we ve changed. Toss you much what they said. Don't. You dare tell us what we are supposed to do that, so we fundamentally changed That's why we had the bill of rights in and you know, Effie are Cason. Barack Obama even talked about changing the bill of rights to a d he meant of positive liberties. Instead of negative liveries the bill. It's in the constitution is met to be. The states best friend, the local best for hand the governor cannot ever do these things. You want to do a great. The federal government can never do these things. Ok,.

We ve tried with empty are and his his new deal. He tried to flip this and say here's what the government must do Changes is fundamentally right, and that is what is forcing us to live a certain way, it's like I hate it. When you travel much now I'm sort of a reckless writer, I traveled a law in the eighties overseas, and then I did again here in the last ten years. The difference is crazy. I don't like you, I mean go to Rome. You bite is well go to EPCOT because its the end, Taylor and all look there's the guy. It's no longer Rome! You go Our towns, now all across Amerika, same all same shops, aim everything we all alike. We raised the uniqueness of of

of each individual state and everything is The same right, we meant to be. That way. I mean that's like a whole other Daniel of worms that that's that's like like, like you see, with Facebook, in Google, on Amazon COM, a nap, and the big monopolies IKEA. I feel like ten years now, you're the Romans Blake there was and tailor their issues like here s my stuff on Amazon Reich. That's how I you know what. Amazon has given us a bigger etsy. Has given us a bigger market to look I want to buy real cricket bats. I don't know where I would have bought those before, but I can you know that was given us that wide diversity, which is why really good, but when you folded into the government.

And we all have to have the same things it what's wrong. Eight in Amarillo, you know New Mexico Is not necessarily what's right for Seattle, Washington, I feel it people who didn't have their willingness on they like, like you know I M a younger brother and at when I was a kid I'm here, that's only I wanted it or you, like. I judge myself by him and then I grew up consumers. In other words, like I just hope- What's best for him, it's not gonna, be the same as me. Here. I guess I was good for him. I saw my business, that's that This data is pie is not very tribal. Why people, but to victory too. Impose that wealth it to feel like you're taking action Examination, nobody board care so much. I don't think they do. I think we ve been pushed the tribes so hard that we feel under it,

Pack, and so anything outside of our tribe is an enemy. When that's not true, I don't I don't care what you do. I mean It was. I was painted essay anti gay marriage guy, for I don't know how long pendule outcome it came out of Life Show Fox tried to trap me. He was like. So do you have a problem, gay marriage and I'm like, but I know I haven't had a problem with ever with gay marriage. I'm I'm a libertarian I believe nobody has a right to tell me who I can Marian. I don't need a licence or a blood test. Thank you very much. Margaret Sanger and Woodrow Wilson, for giving us those kinds of things. Thank you reconstruction for giving us the mare It lies in the so we don't Mary, the wrong race around lincoln- did never a marriage license from the State George Washington D Nabon. Why do I need one? I don't need one now

can live side by side with everybody. I'm fine just be called your thing and I'll do my thing in just don't get along. Your friend the other day that he should start the roundly King Alliance just to try to have you all to get along. I like. That was also my big takeaway too, from feeling going from Dispirited by the election results to trying to feel inspired and burial Calvin. Just thinking We are all in this together. I like I, The best for this present that I didn't believe in definite ruby against whom I went away, went to be happy. We all win. If, if he wins, it would say Barack Obama on the big issues on the big issues. And I also do believe that more Then there were just really hearing from the more vocal minorities, not ethnically minorities.

We're hearing from the loud vocal minorities, and I think that there is like sixty eight, the people more so in the middle there like yeah, that's actually get along. I don't want to fight with you, but, The journalists on both sides, especially left, are in that ten percent free. Extremists. We too can. Everything needs to be as it's wrong. That's not way like that is really. Slanting the way that the people are proceeding reality. Are you hopeful for the future of that this will there this a phase were going through I'm a hopeful person in general so that serve a biased that I have and then I'm full because I've, yet to encounter a situation? And maybe I just haven't had many where I actually someone who should be my enemy, whether to you or whether its the guy who founded Nimble, America and when I asked talk to

you are hammer any of these people, this so much common ground and we want ninety five percent of the same thing and it importantly they are not or you are not what I had in my head believing that you were another, as we hopeful is whether people reading this book origin, me talking to him about what happened and explaining it. Whenever someone asks it is willing to give their attention span, have the conversation. Did they persuaded negative is tribal to hate this person or the like this person, but actually say hey. Why do you he'd personal? Why, like that person, one on one November. One say I guess you're right is those I did that I'd to it. I think that people I still believe in humans- I guess so we just need to figure out Easier said than done way to get our better angels and and and and to actually want to have that solidarity, because there are people out there that want to block this that why did think that you know that site

and arguing is emotionally. Arguing that not debating is this solution, because the other subsidies be defeated, last last topic when I first had you on the area book was thirty three thousand, and I didn't. I don't think I knew this until you were on the air. You just couldn't get you couldn't get Anybody in the mainstream media to talk to you about this book, and you are an accomplished author. I mean you have one of the the asked the books of the last decade out, in its being made into tv, show movie wow, that's undertakings Yes, I wrote a book about Sagan and Technical Council where's. That is the all,

I'm bestselling video game book and it's a small field which is part of why I wrote the book in part of my people really liked it and its being into a richly movie now tv show with South Rogan and Jordan Way we're just directing so like on However, I was everything than that: a gaming journalists should like, like you, know, someone who actually that is to mainstream audience someone who's spent years doing the work like I actually did and I was very well liked- I was named fifty one of the fifty most admirable gaming people from one another. Magazines and twenty four to you. My boy came out. Yeah that it didn't happen, so we really does, and it was a double the book was saying. Ok, the first few weeks, then oblivion until you changed my crew I tell you so went vessel has changed from Now that we came back up? Did

you find anybody else that they were willing to take a look at it in excellent question, because the book you know we went from thirty three thousand to know. Or two on Amazon hat every book out. Send this to my friends and they'll, be like fortune what category, unlike the category of every book in the U S, lap Castro arrive, sounds ahead of the almost L Obama's workforce for awhile. And it was- national, bizarre USA, today by seller and the week after it was named best seller. I put together an email and working with the publicist at Harper to publish the book, and we I gave her the names of like a hundred and fifty journalism. Gaming world, who were our were. My friends are who bear these personal yells like people who I pay

conversations with and said you know, let's, let's make it effort to reach out to them. Can you send them an email? basically saying that this book a best seller. Now it's the highest, video game book, has ever been an end and and say, and I think she rose, I like it, it's been getting. A lot of you know has been getting attention because the political discrimination aspect, but in addition to that, there's also topics like you know, the game company, Epic just lost a store, and there is some internal documents from him talking to Soccer Burke and others that we will succeed Other topics that are super timely related to gaming intact. And I was a girl- I haven't even better idea since Look is obviously the most interesting topic. I said yes, it had given me a cellphone recorded video of the day that mark came to talk to us when they were being acquired or three billion dollars, and he gives a speech which is the product of a book. But the action. Video, and I said I've never

If anyone wants, I put that up on video and will include a link and if report we're not gonna report this than them did. We have no hope, like a video, no one's ever seen of Zagreb, Zuckerberg every. Palmer, even in shock me after I told myself this in our committee, we were carrying. Are the journalists going to finally acknowledge my book and Palmer made the point that a couple weeks all these same outlets had been reporting on what was in Mark Zuckerberg, garbage and so Palmer said. If they report on this video little on the book, they would literally rather report on. What's marks garbage than any of the stuff that is, Did I spent years researching and and still that, is it now a person, but what I should do so that is the main stream tack and gaming press. I view coming on. Your show in the success of the book reached.

You you're you're such a devoted group of listeners in so many them nice letters me so many them thought this work the book and like the book, and it also lead to other conservative pundits hosts haven't beyond their shows that even where they commenting on the and then there's been people here and there Then it had me on there. Conversation with the guy David, her no Hope David Room and encouraging James O Keefe mentioned the book on an honest, show, the other day I'm hoping to. The data are called day for your takes good friend. Thank you, Dave NEO for me I fully still consider myself a liberal, and I always think it's wherever when you question that people Dave's called Right are all right, even though he knows he's a cake. I like it and then you're sitting with Joe Rogan term Harris and all these people that ban, but it but

member, let you know that this has been sort of a journey for me of of becoming more tolerant and sort of understanding what it means to be liberal conservative. Dave's video- why I left the left was really I opening for me did talk about the Martin Luther King, Jr Court I think about a lot and- and that was a very persuasive, video and there's a lot of people on the left. Now who feel like dave- like myself, an end, and I we can do better than that, but, my dear both these areas on the site, geeks guide to the galaxy which, a good conversation, and I thought it's funny that Progress is actually produced by wired, though, like they have no involvement, but they ended up putting it up on their web page, and I say I finally got and wire definitely refused to have me anyway. I kind of snuck on there and during the conversation we talked about how wired wouldn't have me on, but

but yeah? I just wanted to take moment to thank your listeners there. The best are the best of the best like. Thank you. Thank you so much just a reminder, love you to rate and subscribe to the podcast and that's his onto a friend, so it can be discovered by other people.