Hey. We really want to thank simply say for making this podcast possible. No is a fascinating guy. You'll learn an awful lot. Simply safe has been there for this program for a long time, but, more importantly, they are there to keep you and your family safe is. This is a group of people that have completely turned the home security system upside down? There's no

contracts, there's no hard, wiring, there's no sales. When it comes to your house you're like would you please just leave I'll sign outside just leave? You are smart enough to figure out what you need. You can count how many windows you have, how many doors you have. You can install it in about thirty minutes. I know I've done it myself and I'm not handy at all. I come back, you know, and I put something together from IKEA and there's usually about fifteen parts left over I've, no idea where they should've gone anyway. Anyone can do it to keep your family safe. It is the top level security and you won't believe the price simply say free shipping right now and a sixty day, money back guarantee just go to simply safe dot com, Slash Glenn, Beck that simply dot com, Glenn Beck,

Today, I'm gonna spend time with a guy who goes into work every day and does battle, I mean, and he holds his own. He is a contributor to M S, N, B C frequent guest on shows like morning Joe, where you can find him flanked and outnumbered by a whole bunch of people who it is, you think, might be frothing at the mouth just a little bit waiting to see him fail, but his goal is to bring a conservative voice to a anti conservative part of the media with a lot of influence on public opinion. He is taking one for the team. If you will, he is associate editor of commentary. That's a conservative journal. He has recently authored a book that I think is extraordinarily important. Just about social justice. He deftly compares the social justice laughed and the White Nationalists right. He is a guy who understands socialists an awful lot light. He examines the pitfalls of the political system based on tribalism and looks at the growth of woke capitalism and what it means for all of us. He is incredibly smart. He uses big words that I don't understand, he's very eloquent and has his finger on the pulse of America with a unique view of our past. Our present and our future.

I remember in two thousand and eight. Being called a racist. Can Chrissy theorist, whatever getting it from all sides When I said warning social justice may sound good but it is antithetical to absolutely everything you think it is but it sounds like and it was with the Catholics yeah. So the critique a social justice in this book aren't really new Robert Nozick. Did this record high? Did this we've just forgotten all these lessons right, and, as you say,

if you don't really have a lot of experience with social justice activists are not in your daily life, you might think this is a pretty unobjectionable notion, just thinking about freedom and equality and writing. True historical wrongs, an it is that, or at least it was that, but in the hands of its activists class, it has become the antithesis of the american idea, but isn't because I want to. I want to first delve into what it is you know historically etc, and then what it is become. It's a. Will start start with Catholics in the 1800s yes. So in the 19th century, jobs so first in the catholic Church were seeking a way to create an alternative theory of social organization to compete with the enlightenment, very secular, protestant enlightenment, because experience with the enlightenment in France, wasn't the experience that was shared by the Englishman and Scotsman, who developed this sort of ideas like churches were, were sacked and pre,

were assaulted and killed and idols to self worship erected. So they were very skeptical of what the cult of pure reason could reason you into right and also the idea that I don't Smith invisible hand should be the font from which charitable works spring with something sort of anathema shouldn't be the pursuit of self interest that benefits society. It should be devotion to God. So they developed a theory of social justice that was much more like charity. It developed into the the ecclesiastical Merriman of arm which has some collectivist elements to it, was a way to combat these. Symptoms of society that were leading to the development of socialism and marxism, but fast forward. About a century later to John Rawls and John. A lot more meat on these bones made. It seem made created the idea of social justice that we now know he did he as a series of thought experiments. So we could think about justice as like a finite commodity. Only how much exists in the world and it needs.

Distributed justly and evenly so that everyone can have access to a quick, equivalent amount of social justice. How do you do that Institutions that are dedicated to these distributions. Idealized institutions, perfect institutions and the industry, here, are the enlightened distributor operates from behind a veil of ignorance. So we cannot know the object of their distribute and satisfy their own biases, modern, so Justice advocates have turned against the philosophy that was supposedly is the is the foundation of the earth of their their thought process. They think the mail ignorance is morally obtuse. How can you a just distribution if Don't know who the objects of your distribution are. Who are the and who are their oppressors and who deserves to be lifted up and who is doing and even second, and knows a note that Rawls abandons the veil of ignorance to whenever it becomes inconvenient to realizing the sort of just distributions that he envisions. This is a feature of this movement is not a bug. It cannot see

visuals as individuals? It doesn't pursue justice in the kind of objective, It is that we see it in a courtroom. It is, I mean every statue of justice, always is: has a blindfold always and It is the principal idea of of a us two west that you have to treat the White and the black in the rich and the poor, and we haven't always done that the idea of true justice is it doesn't matter who you are yeah? No, it's uh it has. It has developed into an antipathy towards individuality. These people, not as people but as avatars with their particular tribe and treats them as such, and it is a dehumanizing philosophy in that sense, dehumanize someone. You can do a lot of things to them, we're not the first society that has begun to experiment with these ideas, they're, pretty old ideas and-

then, when I had the idea because in Ukraine I a government sponsored junket there, the Revolutionary Administration was sending people over influencers. They wanted to talk to them about what they were doing. Building a civil society, and I met a lot of very influential people and very smart people who are committed to creating a republican culture in this post soviet state. There's noble project but I was very disheartened when I sat across from the country's chief prosecutor, who explained to us at the time that they had no interest in and it wasn't in their interest and therefore not in our interest to see them. Anybody who is engaged in violence in the Maidan Revolution on their side, and why should you want to see that we're on the same team here? That was a kind of justice, a guide and idea of justice that is common in the rest of the world, but it doesn't look like the kind of justice that we see in a courtroom. It looks to me a lot more like revenge, yes and you're, feeling that let me stay in the Soviet Union for a second good. Lenin

first all everybody starving because of his policies with the farmers and then it been. It starts to work itself out a little bit and the farmers start to make some money and there's Dirtness sell their their their harvest and it's starting to pick up and things are kind of okay, and Stalin comes in, and he finds a group and he wants, he needs to say the farmers are capitalists now and we got to. We got to shut this down. This is so justice is is the greatest tool in Hands of anybody gone bad or anybody who even believe something good and needs a highway to do it because you can say, as he did, there stealing the wealth, this these

ups belong to all of us. Another story from the Soviet Union. That's in this book, so affirmative action, as we know it was essentially invented- former Soviet Union X, inherited a vast russian empire. It was multi ethnic Russians governed it like viceroys, and they did so in a very chauvinistic way. Russian chauvinism was a problem not just from a governing standpoint, but from a theory, A paradigmatic standpoint: this was an assault on the kind of egalitarian glow communist border. They they wanted to build, so they Phillips in policies lifting individuals up in these individual republics who are representative of the ethnicity in those republics That was only one half of this program. The other half was to disempower and disadvantage ethnic Russians at the Gresham, be denied a sense of nationality of nationalism. They were to be punished for theirs. The approach that they took to governing these territories. This policy was a disaster

people that most of the individuals who were lifted up a lot of them are incompetent Apparat, chicks. Many of them were liquidated in the purchas, but the kind backlash that was sewn as a result of this policy, but among Russians resulted in its exact opposite the was engaged in the that the individual cultures were tamped down and a sense of grievance among individual Russians manifested in a back against these, the republics that was probably the result of the sense that they had been robbed, unjustly, of a sense of individuality, of a sense of commonality in nationality. So again, The story is in the story throughout this book is people who would, with the best of intentions, convinced of their own competence, made everything worse.

will tell you, Ben watching the rise of this and and tired of warning against it. We are seeing- and I want to get into identitarianism we're seeing all of this just turn around and backfire? I mean an example I think Americans would be able to relate to is. I think Barack Obama had the greatest opportunity of any president ever if he would have been transformative in nature on race, if he Have been more like the king message more at the Gandhi message more like Nelson Mandela. It would have changed everything, but he believed in salvation he in social justice

and social justice feels like vengeance. Times when Barack Obama was transcendent on race, in particular, I'm thinking of the wake of the verdict in the Martin killing trial that we, the transcendent message, but he for different messages for different audiences. Yes, that was the message for the for the country, and I was very healing he was very if he would've been the guy who spoke at the democratic convention, in what was at four right, it would have been transformative, would've been transformative, but even if wasn't him the this started to it's been going on for a long time in the universities, but this started for front where the each person started noticing a change, and it accelerating so rapidly and we're starting now to say. I think, Kavanaugh was a breaking point where people, rich people went wait a minute

this could happen to me. This could happen to my son. This is an justice. This is not. What's happening here. The most disturbing element of that episode for me, was the way in which you saw illusion of people who are influential in media and politics and entertainment, and just about every facet of life come out unashamedly and without any reservation, to say that This is the results of a privileged white man who is rebelling against his own circumstances, just reducing him to the accidents of his birth and stereotyping. From that basis and ignoring the Pau City of evidence before us was such that you didn't really have a lot to pour over. So why not into his accidents of birth, that, in any other context we would call print just prejudice, but it was anything that was not only acceptable but lauded. So here's what I don't understand and and I ask this sincerely. I've actually talked to uh

one of the daughters of one of the writers that went to prison for you know be one of the Hollywood ten during the the roundup of communists in the 50s and We completely disagree on things On this come into line on and I No, I literally don't understand how can. People who say they represent a group of people who have been afraid, need to say who they are because they were kept in a closet or group of people who have seen jail time for what they believe in a political sense. People who, who an oppressed how do they not see all All that's happened is your flipping the script instead of instead of Gandhi, Martin burger. Just the content of my character, judge me by Merit Martin,

king, said, live to the words of your founding documents. We throw those out now yeah that those appeals common humanity are to be insufficient. Moment by the is what's wrong with us. Well, I, not seeing that. So this is a common human impulse. Right I mean this. The kind of tribalism and identity politics is so is so common ingrained in universal that it must be an evolutionary trade. So the fact that have these structures in this country that our design, to thwart those impulses. It's not a now well condition were essentially rebelling against our own humanity. It has worked in an entropic way in part, because were so far sighted, but it is not a natural condition. We are rebelling against nature. You start with Kurt Vonnegut. And you say it's actually worse than what he saw in Nineteen- Sixty one Story and

and an explain how it's worse, 'cause. He came up with a pretty dystopian look It's Harrison Bergeron, so the store, as takes place in the in future in nineteen thousand nine hundred and sixty one, but not too far? Society was characterized by on discrimination. The kind of discrimination were talking about in the Soviet Union. Visuals who have advantages, bestowed on them by nature and natural advantages of birth, whether they look attractive or they have a unique athletic abilities or they're intelligent. They are dis empowered by the state given various impediments to deny them those privileges, so ask if you're beautiful, ask your beautiful acoustic distractions if you're smart in a way to run your legs, if you're athletic from the design being so Quality but Ford social leveling and in order to envision this scenario in ninety

sixty one which is kind of anathema to to the american consciousness. He needed to create this big brother character, which, impose these conditions on people, I don't he foresaw the situation that we're in now where there is no imposition from above this is being demanded from below if this is a sort of bubbling up from beneath. It is by popular demand that we are seeing these kind of demands for downward social leveling and that's much more dangerous, because you can't just vote out the demos you is it is it coming for the most part, and I'm not talking about the. The social Justice warriors who know exactly what it is and what they're doing okay. But there are all that I just saw an interview with a bunch of a Columbia students You talk about this in your book with the Nazis

The NEO Nazis here. Guy goes on campus. He says. Blacks want to have separate, but equal dorm rooms, classrooms, everything else and all of the people on campus for like well, I mean, I think, that's fine. If that's what they want, I think that's fine without even thinking you know this this? This is segregation. This is we got rid of that, but watching it. I thought that is for some that was motivated, I think, by kind of care what people? what to do? If you want to live together, live together, you don't want to live together, live over here. It's fine This this twisting of what right and wrong. And universal end, truth.

Part of it is coming from our own strength of just wanting to get along right, Just wanted to do the right thing? Yeah, I mean there's one thing to be said for wanting to steep yourself in a lifestyle that complements a particular field of study. I don't think, there's particularly wrong with that the new, although it might manifest in something you call segregation, that's not necessarily healthy, but it's not salt on the american idea- was a little different. And a little more disturbing, is now the pretense that this kind of segregation has anything to do with study is being abandoned. You see non faculty administrators now saying that we have essentially segregated spaces in all forms of campus life, segregated lunch tables, even because it prevents quote unquote trouble learning since scene and the they never have you ever been. Have you ever at any time learned anything in your life. That was worth it that

cause you some sort of discomfort, pain, questioning right now? This is this is the essence of competition, yeah markets. There is no advantage to be gained and spaces. It's It hurts when I workout station shortly workout, but there telling the truth to my wifes use nation. You should otherwise you'll end up. Looking like me now, unfortunately, though, this is the sort of thing- and I said this is bubbling up from beneath, but this is seen as the most health most healthy approach to developing a sort of communal instincts, because the notion here that segregated areas of lifestyle and complete separatism. Is the way to create some form of racial enlightenment seems to be a very difficult way to combat racism. You're, basically telling people that the only culture you're you're allowed to appreciate is essentially your own. I don't know how that combats the kind of

the kind of hatred that social justice advocates say they want to fight when you boil it down? When you talk, When you start, you know really into these issues, it's not It doesn't become about addressing hatred and creating more common understanding, commonalities and universality. It becomes steeping yourselves in these grievances holding fast to these grievances because they are in power. You just sent with Kurt Vonnegut. You just said that we would except it and bring it on ourselves. I I think, we've gone one step worse. I think we are. We're incentivizing people. To be intersected? if you can find a way to a grievance, congrats congratulations- you are ten points for you find another one. Another ten points we are celebrating it is

Trulia rejection of everything we've ever been as a nation. We are celebrating our differences in and Safeway, We are. We are looking for things that say kept us down where Perkins were always like Arnold Rocky mountains I got a horse wagon. Let's go you know what I mean not me I'm glad I wasn't around at that time, but we were never put off and we never the peep used to always say about America, they still do, which is in something yeah I like about Americans, Is there almost naive they're? They they trust everybody. We never turned each other in we never turned on each other. We didn't matter. We had problems, but in the end we were in this together we you're, not nothing.

Dismantled bit by bit, people are smart. They see incentive structures. They know that there is capital in victimhood, you create an incentive structure for a certain type behavior you're, going to get more of it I wish I could say this was unique to the left. The is mostly about the left, but not exclusively shouldn't be because the right is just as attracted to these ideas as much as after this, they understand the marketplace when they see one and they're engaging it. When I was at Fox two thousand nine hundred and ten, I kept saying Democrats. Be careful, 'cause you're not always going to be in charge. Don't Do this because you may not think it's a problem now, but what is you're, creating that's coming in. After now, we have Donald now I find myself saying Republicans, don't this because

What are you doing you're creating somebody else. That's going to be a bigger dog. We we, We just both sides. We want our vengeance. We want to shut people up. How does this end so. I mean, I have good news and bad news. Ok, so my start with the bad news. Well, that's unfortunate, because this 'cause I just wanted some happy news. Go ahead, start with that. Well, you gotta get to the house. You gotta get to the bad news for the happiness. The happy news is, I don't think the kind of downward social leveling that social justice advocates seek. It's possible in this country. The institutions in this country are not equipped to meet out the kind of justice that they seek so it's a good thing. I don't think these it out without a whole entire remaking of the constitutional order. What we see that kind of aren't we. Let me just look look at the green deal for in about all the cars cal farts in all of that stuff,

it's. The line in the new green deal that it is too a reform, our system and change our system into system of ecological, and social justice. It is a fun. It is Is that fundamental transformation of the tire economic system. Absolutely so Read the green new deal their proposal, the subcommittee proposal, the fact all that stuff- and it is only until he related to environmental remediation right. Most of it is about these ideas about um progressive. Does it errata that they've been seeking for generations from the notion. Excuse me: what does it orado? Does it allow desired objects of desire, so you're? The notion here that you're going to have through the green new deal, the Federale get Guarantee that FDR one in nineteen. Thirty seven tomorrow seems to me unlikely the notion that you're going to have Medicare for all your

like that in nine hundred billion dollar industry tomorrow This one proposal seems unlikely, so yes, you're moving towards the transformation of society, but it is one that has been at least one hundred years in the making, and so far it has encountered a series of impediments. I'm hopeful Those impediments are not going to disappear tomorrow. A problem, however, that the social Justice Advocate who has Look at these moral imperatives will encounter. Resistance and it and then react in one of two ways: one despondency withdraw back off your political activism, isn't worth it second, this radicalized to resolve to

the foundations of these institutions, because they're so immoral and someone responsive that they cannot be allowed to stand, and that is, in my view, on Wall Street, why we have seen so much political violence in this country. Over the last ten years, more than we've seen in a generation began with occupy, and it has only gotten worse right and the left fringes are at one another's throats in the streets, literally knifing each other in the streets. It's sort of narcissism of small differences there and the means to groups resemble each other in more ways than they don't but yeah at each others throats, and I think that is a product of the fact that they are reacting with frustration, because their demands cannot be met. Do so justice warriors, for instance, you the people up in Portland, and an then. Easy. You have a hard time square circle on this. One on hang on. Against fascism, but you're doing these things and your

against Nazis. Okay. Well, so am I, but you're acting a lot like a nazi right. I mean they might have subtle differences, but when it comes to social justice, when it To really socialism in the way the state operates We are just two sides of the same coin. Everybody was horrified, but what happened in Charlottesville as well but have been, but it wouldn't have come as a surprise. If we had reacted as we should have to the events in Sacramento a year earlier, prior. You had a demonstration of permitted white nationalists rallying under fascist flags and they were attacked. The profile form government or pro government proto organization that formed anti files called by any is necessary in these. These two groups rallying under a communist flag and a fascist flag at each other in the streets people went to hospital, there were serious injuries, it was a melee video evidence everywhere and we didn't talk about. It was America's Vimar moment and we did not

talk about it. I don't think we wanted to see what was happening, but we should have what mean by America's Vimar moment. It was a moment in which is probably it's unlikely that were coming to see the the you know the effects of the Weimar element. You know, republic, here incredible TH day of inflation and political instability but the notion that we can talk about our debt, on another episode. Go ahead sure, but the notion here that we are beginning to see the elements Identitarian politics manifest in street violence is to me a warning sign of the kind of instability that was experienced in the Inter war years and it's Alex sure the notion here that we are experiencing something that could become that kind of the kind of formative experience that high a had. This to me, something that shouldn't be ignored and, yes, it would address it with the terms that are relevant to to create in the kind of urgency that I think the crisis demands you

first person. I've talked to that's in mainstream media at all that even begins to understand identitarianism it is, it is so pernicious, and and yet So easy to see. See how people can fall into, in my opinion, see far understandings of the same. If you're over in Europe here in Sweden, You're racist: if you fly a swedish flag, has to be the EU flag. Uhm you are you are being forced to lose? What is uniquely you as a group of people, instead of saying like Walt Disney. This is fantasyland. This is

venture land. This is Tomorrowland, you can go to all of them, but they are different. They're all each different with their own personalities, Sweden, and somebody said you know we just don't really have our own culture, and I said what I've never seen architecture like this any place else. I've ever been. Okay, I'm not finding that in Bangkok, I'm not finding that in Chicago enough time anywhere here, This is your culture. And they're being forced to abandon it. At the same time injury upon injury. They are saying also your racist if you, if you believe that what you grew up with Good and noble and has a reason to be preserved or even talked about.

You force people soon, as somebody comes in and you have a population that feels that way and they come in and say no no, We have a noble culture that can go awry that fast yeah. You shouldn't surprised that there is a a backlash to that sort of thing that made a really extremist ways. It's what happened to Germany, so we, something like that here on the social justice left, which is big, embrace a contradictory notion. At the same time, we don't America doesn't have a culture that has sort of hodgepodge that an appropriate you'll be gotten goods, essentially from other cultures and so it is at the same time, while we don't actually have a culture. The culture that we do have is not our own and is misbegotten result we shouldn't we should welcome or celebrate anybody assimilating into it. That is a form. Activity,

and the result is that you have the extremists response to that, which is to say essential. Not only that we have a culture, but it is. This is a supremacist notion of that sort of call Earl identity, if identity again is an evolutionary trait mankind is cannot live in the kind of hermetic individual out individuality, that is envisioned by the extreme Libertarian id social Organization simply doesn't work? and in a way to explain what is the extreme extreme idea of mankind is divorced from the kind of civil mediating institutions. Non governmental institutions that result in community churches, community organizations. What have you creating a sense of of common purpose yeah around a shared identity. Articles of federation is too close to key and signed the constitutional. But you can live that much freer than this, but and that you do have systems

and the american civic religion around the institution has sufficed for a form of political identity in this country. For the last two hundred forty years and it's a pretty healthy one, I mean that the first amendment protects you from the government infringing on your right to freedom of speech right, but at the same time. We don't view the first amendment as though it was just a protection against government intrusions become a religious idea about our a capacity to express ourselves in whatever, for we want and if you personally infringe on my right to free speech, that is an infringement of that religion, it's a broader understanding of what the constitution really was an it's one that I think is especially healthy. Especially, is especially healthy when you get to the alternative, which is advocated by social Justice advocates, which is much more and cultural identity based in the kind of way that Europeans see cultural identity, your blood and soil nationalists.

The individuals who see see cultural identity is sort of a shared global common humanity. On the left, These two things, I think, are are antithetical to the american experiment, also, the notions that are shared by the the social justice advocates on both sides of these coins that you do not have the capacity to rise above your station, into which you were born, that your accidents of birth put you on a course in life that is essentially destined. You cannot navigate this admin on navigable labyrinth of prejudices and the obstacles that are put before you buy unseen, ubiquitous elites, somebody holding your hand in the summit, essentially selling you something somebody has to help you navigate this, this environment, 'cause. You were not equipped to do that on your own, pernicious ideas, they're the the platforms on which individual seek and pursue and achieve power, and

they're getting more and more power. As a result of this philosophy, that you're a scholar on Russia, he's you still follow, pretty closely what's happening in Russia, not as closely as I would like. But yes, I studied it in undergrad and grad, ok, you know. Alexander Dugan is yes, ok, good, free who? Fourth political theory. Have you read that no that's his that's his book that has communism, didn't work. Fascism, didn't work, capitalism doesn't work, we're going to take the best of those

framing and come up with a new system? It's the fourth political theory, and when you read that when you read When you read, he you may be different than I am. I read capital and was like this is ridiculous, I can make it. I think it just. It was gobbledygook to me, people, read it and they're, like all it's fantastic. His theory is Dick Hillis and beyond that it is terrifying. A he It ties it directly to end of times kind of philosophy, world has to burn down completely, but or it can restart and give a rebirth. It's terrifying! but his arguments which are being espoused by p, honestly like Steve, Bannon and others.

If you don't know, if you don't know what he's talking about, if you don't know where this leads. It is so seductive. How do we back away from this this nightmare, when everything in culture is pushing you the opposite way, yeah, so we're a victim of our own success here right. We are so prosperous and so comfortable. Generations we have now have at least two probably just one generation, my generation but another coming up behind me and I have no. Experienced anything resembling political violence they have. Experience. The kind of systemic public sector, oppression resulting in violence in the streets that the other. Societies are much more familiar with, and so I began to romanticize it having never experienced themselves. It is a

It is, it is the blood lust of the board and the comfortable and that's I I think, you're beginning to see even part, infestations of violence in the streets, because these individuals have never experienced political persecution and so began to fantasize about it as a very effective tool in the tool shed just another one to affect the political and They do actually convince themselves that they are oppressed yeah. I think Generally see themselves as oppressed again because they do not know oppression. It's an insult to the rest of the world. I mean I hope the Chinese never hear about our oppression here I was, I was in Mexico City with my wife for two days: and I interviewed women who were slaves that were just freed by one of my charities. Ann One of them literally had chain marks around her neck. Hey, you know

famous picture of the the slave with his shirt off, and he a chair and sitting in the chair. You, you see the the Widmark, that's what she looked like. It was horrifying and I'm spending two days with these guys and were talking about. You know what they and through, and everything else, and this woman, I over a blank piece of paper and I'm cutting something with their filming or and I said I want you to say your name. And then I want you to say I was a slave. But no one writes my story. My life is a brain blank piece of paper and I write my story. She said no and I said wow She said because I was never a slave. They might have caused a slave, but I was never a slave chain, Parks around her neck, okay

I fly home, and my wife and I are just like- spired and devastated we'll and I look at the tv, Np or crying on TV in America about the oppression that they're feeling from statues in the parks. And I about lost it. He who is yeah, there's a distinction, I guess we should make between oppression and injustice. There are injustices, there are racial grievances. There are discriminatory actions that are taken by public institutions that are, Nfs Leon Justin that should be combated with everything that we have in us, but that's a that's distinct from the the kind of political violence that we've seen in other societies. Excuse me mister, talk to me. A little bit about

where we're headed with. Social justice. Do you think? Where are the who are the who are. The Nisha's organizers of social? justice that we should be watch for one of the moves that are coming, that we should be aware of well much easier to see them on the left, then on the right on the left, it has become such an organizing principle in unchallenged unquestioned, organizing principle that is just in the water and people talk about social justice as It was just a nod to just being a good person say it like. You know a a I I used to hear my boss talks about how, in the nineteen eighties or so you would attend, and the environment on to whatever it was. You were talking about because who hates the environment right. It just marks you as a good person, correct social justice taking a place? So you just say social justice and Social, basically, social, basically just any other word and it modify

destroy this end of its meaning is what Hyatt said, but also- Mark C, with somebody who's socially conscious They are out in the open, they're easy to identify on the right it's much hard, I see they are underground. Who are they philosophers of the dark enlightenment, which is exactly what it sounds like? A an attack on Enlightenment Philosophy, Curtis Yarvin, who writes under the pseudonym Mencius Moldbug, who of advocates for an anti democratic philosophy. Nancy republican philosophy, who is attracted to Donald Trump's Movement and Donald Trump Movement, was attracted to him. He apparently in contact with Steve Bannon when Steve Bannon was in the White House, is a chief strategist for the President, Steve Bannon. You see, I give. Him- and you know how I presume you know where I stood with Donald, during the election, I thought he was an extraordinarily dangerous man, because who he was surrounding himself with beyond

I don't think he really cares about any. I don't think he believes anything deeply except tariffs. Man, maybe immigration, maybe immigration tariffs. I know he's got that one down a changing him on that Yes it is. I don't know yeah bring them in sure I'll just play to them to it Steve Bannon. However, knew exactly who he was and you have. This movement in Brexit The same exact way, your mixing sing and the media does this and it is incredibly dangerous. Make everybody and they mix them together. Steve and Glenn Beck's same no not at all completely different universes. Anyone for Brexit over in the European Union. The same no they're, not they're, not,

how does the average? How does the average conservative give me some way of knowing who's who, if you're just somebody who doesn't really pay attention. How do you know who you're standing with well, I so Donald Trump in twenty. Sixteen a lot of ideas that are antithetical to conservatism. Right Some of the stuff we talked about notions. Like you as an individual are being robbed your station in life that which is your due by a series of ill defined elites. Obstacles are put on your path and that you, to appeal to a strong hand to restore it wait, You can make play devil's advocate here and have you answer to them? Well, we ride. The tea party,

we tried everything else. We tried to stand up they're, not even listening to the people anymore. They don't care. It's a caballes. Tuesday the republican party- it's a come all well yeah, so If what is the objective here? You're saying that reduce spending and fiscal yeah. Well, that's a tea party things that you know hey we want. Does Donald Trump's movement wasn't against fiscal profligacy know. I know that no. I know that I'm not I'm not defending I'm playing Devil's advocate. Okay, if you don't know I was not anywhere close to the trouble. I know that, okay, so just playing devil's advocate is this is what I heard. This is what I heard clan we tried to do it the right way

it is so stacked up with corruption and greed and the media you're never going to burn it down to ten yeah. I heard a lot about that. Also what has conservatism conserved the question. I was post very frequent. And that to me is so myopic and December. Jack's objectivity. Barack Obama's presidency all but ended in twenty eleven, the let's just the phase of Barack Obama's presidency, was over. They and couple judges when they had, but when they lost the Senate in twenty fifteen, that was the and sir it and served as a bulwark against change, which is conservatism tends to do, and if you were, right that you are acting conservatism's. Fundamental elements are, which is preservation, not transformation, and then the down? Crowd really wants radical transformation, they're, not entirely clear on what that transformation is, but there

consumed with the belief that everything must change that these institutions that have preserved this republic for two hundred and forty years are failing them in their families and therefore they are not worth preserving? That's not it. Isn't that something I know, and I don't think that that is I think that might be a feeling, but I could be wrong as may be hopeful thinking And maybe a feeling, but when push comes to shove it it's kind of like, I think the Democrats. The leadership. So miscalculated you know they started miscalculating with Occupy Wall Street, hey they're just great kids, no they're not no they're, not they don't believe in what you believe in if you believe in the constitution And they embraced it and they used it as fuel thinking that they could control it, and I think it's out of control and hand

You know, you're watching Nancy, Poulos, Ian Chuck, Schumer and everybody else just brushed off to the side and because there is a few on both sides. This doesn't what we're doing right now, but when you get right up to it. They nominate somebody like Bernie Sanders or they nominate somebody who's like you know what the free market system, I'm not sure, unless we have an economy that is depression. I don't think Democrats will vote for him it's been. I would. I would bet that too. So I think when I did the occupy Wall Street again, thank very, yes, calculating and in the process of political expediency, by embracing the women's March wrecked leadership right and in so far in a in in doing that. Legitimized kind of critique

the liberal order and a critic of antisemitism, yes, has become again correct. The mainstream of the party right, and so the right I'm I'm hoping and I'd love your opinion on this. I'm hoping at the right says: burn it down. But they have decent respect for the the institutions that we, we must have. And I don't I don't know if they go there. Unless we hit real make trouble and then I think all bets are off yeah. They might come I also think it again. The Trump administration has improved from the campaign in part, because there's no intellectual infrastructure in the Republican Party for the kind of The tearing policies that they wanted to see manifest they had Fill this administration with some financial conservatives and for the most part had a pretty conventional republican administration, some exceptions,

Democrats did when they embrace the women's March was elevate. This the tenants of intersectionality. Do a governing ethos is sort of a man, for organization, intersectional, is really central to social justice. Thinking it's a pretty, explain it for anybody who doesn't know what intersection is very legitimate idea in an academic context. It's a way to think about as a thought experiment so way to think about how prejudice manifests in the real world. So you and I are born with desperate traits. Some of those it's are more discriminated against than others, so the who is say, white and male- will experience less prejudice than a someone who is white and female, a black man experience less prejudice any a black woman, because women experience more prejudiced than men and native Oregon. Lesbian will experience more prejudice than all of them and so on again a valid idea as an organizing principle, which is what the the women's March was dedicated to it is

defeating it results in the organization tearing itself apart, which is exactly what the women's March did, couldn't see their own allies as allies, even if they agreed with them, because they possessed desperate traits, some of which were seen as more oppressive than others. So the members white jewish members were really allies, not in the words of Tamika Mallory, because she the individuals who may be agreed with him on everything, but also possessed traits that advanced white supremacy, whether they knew it or not. Similarly, this organization embraced people with no political constituency whatsoever people, Assata Shakur was a convicted cop Living a fugitive from Justice in Cuba or the Minister Lewis, Farah Khan people. You could have jettisoned easilly without any losing any political capital. Indeed, you would gain some in the process to do so would be to legitimize prejudices against which they claim to fight, and so Women's March tore itself apart. It was disempowered by this philosophy. 'cause Democrats had to abandon, am

Donald Trump against a little intersectionality himself. Dizzy was so disinclined to forcefully vehemently and frequently often denounced the white nationalists who are attracted to his campaign. They gave them the idea that maybe our ideas are a little less marginal than we thought they were that an intersectional philosophy to that is the practice of embracing all because your in a we are at war you're in a war of all against all you are combatants in this, never Is this inevitable labyrinth of prejudices? And anyone who subscribes to your philosophy is necessarily an ally as long as they advance these, these particular traits. It is it isn't as a terrible. Also for political, organizing, but the students I talked to who agree with I think it is a very empowering philosophy, it helps them understand the world in which they live. It helps them to figure out how to navigate it. I think this is a really

This idea The press for Second Donald Trump's Musa the press as an axe. Help me use the press and what's happening with the press as way to navigate around. Being used we're being riled up for justice and what's really happening? For instance,. I'm sorry, but the press has is just they are who they are and if they just came out and said yeah yeah. I'm I'm, I'm liberal pretty much. Everybody who works here is liberal weed. Really see it the same way that doesn't make me a bad person. That's the way. It is and had respect to say,

here's somebody else, who's, really smart on the other side of season, someplace out some some other way, and you had that conversation. We wouldn't have these problems, Instead, they insist that they are faring and and they're the arbiter of truth, and it's many times not always. I read the are times sometimes really good stuff in the New York Times. Sometimes garbage people. Listen to me. You say the same thing, sometimes garbage, sometimes really good stuff. Okay, that's fair!. Conservatives know there is glass ceiling over us Well, I was. I signed a contract with ABC I never served one day because they they put a press release out

care went to the mouse and the mouse folded. Ok, everybody knows that. Ok, Donald Trump, Is saying things that people know is true an in instead of going. You know the Kavanaugh thing, or you know at Times the Russia thing really did get out of hand they, keep hammering back there, winding up their audience. He's winding up his audience and person. Who knows both are you suck. Sometimes what to do, they are forced to pick a side yeah so as a member of the of the press to this sort of not there was a report about him. I am in the media. I think every he goes to work everyday wanting to do the best job that they can do and in the very beginning of the Trump Administration

and there was a sentiment that prevailed in a lot of places in the press where I didn't work at the time. So this is speculation on my part that a new phase of history that we had entered a crisis period, and that was an all hands on deck moment and it was Fatal conceit of the resistance that in american institutions, as far more fragile than they are as as not as tested an eight capable of maintaining themselves self perpetuating an entropic way. That they needed to be propped up and was a terrible concede it's the kind of thing that moves you from being mission oriented from being. Activist first being an activist, and I You did see a lot of that in in the press. I think you're seeing less of it now, but it is still prevalent in. We could- probably you probably all know who the main practitioners of this sort of thing are but it is

it is out of a fundamental lack of appreciation for the robust stability that has been the result of american institutions. They can withstand somebody who, potentially in disrespects the office of the presidency, for example, a pernicious. Actor, malicious actor in a position of power and authority. We're actually seeing, I think, one of the greatest experiments in the to branch that we've seen in a generation or more in the fact that we, a really understaffed executive branch Don't really need as much of the executive branch as we have, because the Trump Administration has not fully staffed from a lot of that. Not great. The act, the number of acting cabinet secretaries is not still is not wonderful, but I was very, I have a background in education and diplomacy, and I was one of the few people with that background was very happy to see the State Department sort of gutted because

it is overstaffed and overburdened, and it is, is with this idea that process and process alone is The means to an end that engagement and dialogue is sufficient diplomacy and that sort of thing needed to be purged. Is fortunate to see that happen, but there are, there are dangerous things that could result from having an understaffed administration. This administration is unfortunate, and so far is that its existed in sort of this period of plus eighty, there hasn't really been an exogenous crisis. That's really tested them, but also you know, things are still moving along pretty good now, because the members of the media have their hair on fire every day. This is the country has been tested before and it is being tested now and it is with standing the test, and I think we should all be pretty happy about that. It's amazing to me how resilient this is. I mean I thought I see we all did on September 11th when we watched the towers fall, not knowing Who did it to us? watching.

That was our enough to reverse this. Are Notre Dame in a way that was our that. Went to the heart of America. If you will it's Wall Street, that's that was new work, it was strong, it was banking, it was invincible, they came down and it was like. Oh, my Ashworth, fragile and I have been shocked. At how many body blows this country can take. I mean since then? It is almost a non stop the blow and we're still standing were dizzy. We're standing yeah. I think that's you, You would think that that would be something worthy of celebration, but I'm not sure I'm not sure the critics of the current state of affairs when it comes to the founding of the country in its history and its form of government

Are really all that interested in? learning about why it is so resilient. Talk about the american ideal and write a little bit about this in the book. When I talk about the american ideal in school, in colleges. I get kind of a hostile response because, from the perspective of the undergraduate, How can I deal has failed what they know of the american ideal is that we have never achieved it. And that is sort of a misunderstanding with the word. Ideal means right I mean it is aspirational. We have improve, you may never achieve it, but that doesn't give you license to stop trying, because we have not improved upon concepts like Merida, Meritocrat, meritocracy, egalitarian ism, and common lawn notions like the presumption of innocence which are under attack by these people. We haven't made anything better than that and so you're, not at liberty to abandoned to abandon those ideas, but these I don't know what the founders and

because they don't not only do they not read the founders, don't read the Federalist papers, but they don't read what the founders red they haven't, read Burke, Hume or Montessori, they don't understand the nature of representative governments and why it is a superior form of Social Organization of Governmental Organization. So it's a product of ignorance, which is in some ways excusable, but mostly not often posed. This is one of the reasons why we need to rededicate. The study of civics. Just how a bill becomes law. But again these enlightenment thinkers that served as the Phyllis. Local foundations that result put the government that we have today that sort of things, but lossed lost I don't think people understand that term. Understand social justice they don't understand that.

This movement. Postmodernism is anti it's postmodern. It is aunt bye, enlightenment, it's anti fact, anti study, anti a you know, observing it. It goes against everything. The enlightenment toy, us and it. Will flip us back, into a world of I don't even let's conceded conceited right. I mean, if you think you can make the world a new, it's probably As you have no idea what the world was before an generally that you have a very. Their guy impression of your own competence, which is I think it's mostly hubris. I mean a lot of that comes with youth, it's most

beaten out of you, I think, by the real world and not everybody that everybody succumbs to that sort of thing. So yeah I would, I would say, probably a function of ignorance. So the year zero mentality. I want to go back to what we talked about earlier about about this system. Feeling right to a lot of people that we don't even know what the system is, that we should be operating on. We haven't been operating on that system for a long long time the constitutional bill of rights real true understanding of of of this. And what's headed our way with technology technology What we're looking at now, nobody is asking the big questions: nobody's really will talk about privacy, privacy.

If your refrigerator will be able to report on you know whatever in not necessarily in a nefarious way, but the the the capitalism that we're moving towards by choice is is a surveillance capitalism. That is the the idea is to be able to predict you as close to one hundred percent of the time as possible. Amazon changes from a sales company to a delivery company in their own words when can predict ninety five percent accuracy. You haven't even talked about that. We haven't even talked about that and it, just that one thing It comes.

Are you: do you have self control or self? Will it? Are you determining your future, or are you being shaped for the future? It will do you think that'll have on the political environment, I think we're already seeing it. I mean if unless we start talking about deeper thoughts and rude ourselves into what is real, until we start until This dislodge ourselves from I'm thinking that the end all be all is a wealth of nations and realize that moral sentiments needs to be with it we'd won't survive this until we can say, yeah that's life- that's life and define it clearly, how We possibly expect to live in a world of ai and TI which don't kill, I mean that's.

It's fascinating and, frankly, I haven't devoted a whole lot of thought to it. I mean just about everybody who wrote out economics book is also wrote an ethics book. This kind of a reason why Adam Smith, running a textbook in heights written in ethics book and marxism is an ethical philosophy and in many ways it has very little to do with economics and let her do with human interaction no more because he can Alex, isn't really isn't in the dismal science. A science part is really deemphasized, it's still much more about philosophy and how to organize societies, I'm I'm less. The goal about innovation. I think that a lot of people who are to share my political inclinations part, because I'm not a tech, yes, I didn't hear technical being what you're saying that you know it is a reasonable fierce and I I can't speculate on the exam devoted a whole lot of thought to the to the idea, but I am, I am hopeful about future economic development the resulting from technology in part, because all the

just about all the predictions of catastrophe that has resulted in that I been how about economic catastrophe have been the result of this idea of scarcity that doesn't exist which is again an economic concept, but the scarcity is presumes straight projection just stasis that we do not develop these new resources shale, was garbage ten years ago. We made that into a resource, american colonists were just crossing the appellation and navigating into the American, Midwest they saw silica box sites in the soil and it was just dirt because there was no value to it? we made these resources into the resources that they are today, aluminum, you know was everywhere. It was just garbage the extent to which you could process aluminum, made it more valuable than gold in the in the enlightenment period. We have Cassidy to innovate, to the extent that we

create these new realities. Create new economic realities that make the old ideas of the hardship bring want, resulting from scarcity, seem really naive when, when people environmentalists to me about. You know the the catastrophe that is that is in pen imposing upon us you with assuming even their own assumptions. Hi. I say that I will never bet against mankind's capacity to engineer itself out of a problem because we've done it so many times in the past. That's an article of faith on my part, I suppose, but it's not unfounded, so it. But when you're talking about innovating your way out what I'm concerned about is. The seeds that have been planted now social justice, where it where there is no justice, it is vengeance. Is you have it? I want it

when you have this period of I mean you're sitting in a studio that was owned by Paramore to make films made all kinds of famous films in this room that went out. And now We, then it made television and made in a lots of television, shows, for HBO and CBS, and Now we own it. I'm disruptor for people that you go to work for every day at NBC and the people at the network ladder. Are doing everything they can to hold on to everything they can as long as they possibly can. But it's to disrupt, and so will this- what I do will be disrupted at some point. It's going to just get faster and faster, and with option disruption, disruption, in all of that disruption. You have

people who will to manipulate things to hold on to last longer to stop things. And others that will be motivated to pit people against each other because it would be in their best interest. That's what I'm concerned about I'm concerned about that ten year period, where every things being disrupted and everybody's just trying to save their own ass. Why I don't fear the disruption and clearly, you don't either I mean, it just as a self described disruptor you welcome it, This is the creative destruction of the mark place and again, as we were saying earlier, nothing nothing It comes for free. I mean this is the sort of thing that develops strength The immunizes you and makes you a stronger, more competitive. Individu the destruction

it's good for everybody. In the interim yeah there will be one in the transition period yeah. There will be a lot of people who would just be displaced and those people will be very sympathetic and they will get them. The tension. I always do but the invisible beneficiaries of the new normal will be the vast majority of those of the individuals who benefits, condition agree with you. One hundred percent, but now put in social justice, and social justice warriors in that mix yeah. So that's The our biggest threat has it's been, will always be bad ideas, a bad idea, one that springs from a noble place, the very valuable Phyllis full foundation and the people attracted to these ideas are not bad people they're good people. These ideas are fundamentally about american ideas, and we should approach some like that you attracted to these things? Because

good person. I might agree with you on a lot of these West hello, these ideas, but making our lives harder, because Are fundamentally at odds a lot of the ideas that are at the this founding and are making us a less attractive member of a political coalition. That's sort of what I get to at the last chapter of this book, which is basically Back to the women's March, the women's March was embraced by the Democratic Party for a time, and then it made itself attractive as a result of these ideas that they were jettisoned. They know had the political authority that they once held so the people, so they might have some things they want to get done in government, but they're not going to get them done now. Because there are no longer the kind of attractive member of a political coalition, and the only thing it wants to do is get to fifty plus one at the polls nope, medical organization or movement jettisons, its own members asking them to do. That is asking them to abandon their instinct for self preservation. You're fighting against the tide, that's not going to happen, You can marginalized and stigmatized bad ideas that has been done many times in the past, often through conflict and use

through circumspect approach, to to isolating stigmatizing, individual ideas. Democrats and Republicans have models that can appeal to Republicans marginalize the Berkshires over a very long period of time and through circumspection and attacking these ideas in a series of of ways, not so as not to make themselves the the packers seem unattractive. Kratz similarly exposed and remove the communist from the organized labor movement in the 1940s. There are models to which we can appeal. If we really want to do this. It's pretty hard to demonize something when I mean I saw an interview with you with about eight people, and you were quite brilliant. Fighting there kind of by yourself, it's a given. They hadn't had time to read the book, but they're, but they're can gut level. Sponsors. Social justice is good right, And these are intelligent people.

These are well read, intelligent informed people So how do you demonize when you have people How do you? How do you Bows and demonized yeah- your voice, is being relegated really to one channel of people, no I don't know I mean I wish I had the good. The good answer there is, I'm I'm the very beginning process of trying to expose this ideology and and the alternative theory of social organization that it is, trying to challenge that in a way that it really hasn't often been challenged, particularly for the audiences that I go to? I go to predominately liberal audiences, on television and universities, and the effort here is to start a conversation and then what is happy with the response so far yeah I have been nobody's trying to get me. Everybody they've been a lot of challenging probing questions

incredulity in a lot of ways but they're listening. Can I think it's because we all see the excesses. The movement successes are pretty visible and just about everybody, even if they agree with, say guys kind of went off the rails a little bit my mission here is to say that this is not and at out of the norm, expression of how this philosophy manifests in the real world that is a it's. Not a bug, argument. I'm making there's a lot. Still the towards that, but it is nevertheless, I think, in of unavoidable inescapable. Once you dig down into the full, seen how it has manifest by the way, this movement with talking up big issues, big philosophical issues here all day long. That is not to suggest that the social justice movement is folk, stay on the big ideas of the day. They increasingly dedicated to small things and attacking one another, there's movements, efficacy is demonstrated in get

individuals to supplicate Jenny Flex before the mom and the mob only has about seventy two hours worth of influence. So they Kate themselves to attacking their fellow social justice advocates young adult novelist, restaurant tours artists, comic book makers. Pop culture is where you mostly see social justice activism manifest on a date a basis in part, because those are the only people who are listening. I don't want to does the claim here that this movement is strong and getting stronger some days. I'm convinced that this is overtaken all of society and some days I see them as very marginal and and lacking influence. I'm erring on the side of caution in this episode in this instance, in the the the presumption that this is a movement with more power, more thorny, then, is it it's it's due. It's a it's a numbers. You talk about. You talk about capitalist count, companies that are regurgitating. The stuff Nike is a good example, Boca Yeah woke capitalism, that's not spreading.

No that's definitely spreading It's taking advantage of people who are made increasingly naive by this philosophy, so don't care, nikes. Slogan was for the Colin Kaepernick campaign. Was believe in something, even if it means sacrificing everything Nike, sacrifice anything their sales ten percent Audi did the same thing when they broadcasting the Super bowl advertisement. I'm talking about the flawed notion that women make zero dollars and seventy seven cents for every dollar a man makes their sales went up. Gillette, sales went up and we talked about masculinity likins and Democrats respond to polls this sort of thing, they want their brands to engage in divisive social politics in part. In my The theory I have is that it's because it allows them to engage in politics, which we all see as a good thing. We incentivize that

but you don't actually have to do any of the homework 'cause. This isn't about legislative affairs. It's not about political coalitions, it's not about politics, as we understand it, it's much more about cultural, combat it mimic. The passions and emotions of politics, but it doesn't really have anything to do with politics, and the stakes are incredibly low. All you have is by something. So it's but it's a popular way to engage in political activism. Today I don't know if it means. The Republicans collapsing, but it is a way to take advantage of people who are attracted to these social justice ideas and the the best example of that is. The story of fearless girl. The statue in lower Manhattan that was dedicated to advancing the notion that women should more women? Should be in C suite executive positions in the financial services industry this statue, this arms akimbo elementary school age girl, was feted by

Kratz, as this really powerful attack on the patriarchy, build a blasio said that men were deeply offended by it. Somehow I'm not sure if he was certain, they were it's hard to find them. Elizabeth Warren made a pilgrimage down there. Gail Collins in the New York Times said it was the most effective protest against patriarchy. Since the protest, the antebellum protest that desegregated the trolleys in New York City GOSH this a commercial for an investment firm investment? Sponsored at it allowed them to evade the kind of scrutiny that they were do because they were transgressing against a lot of social justice norms and some of the literature about how they talked about female investor is going to appeal to emotional reason and kind of pernicious stereotypes, but they didn't get the kind of scrutiny they were do because of the statue and we later learned why they did it a department of Labor audit found they were systematically discriminated against. Their female employees pay about five million dollars to three hundred and five women. Didn't get any of that. Everybody would have seen that coming. I think, if

hadn't suspended, disbelief in deference to the social Justice ideals, about Jen discrimination, an idea as gender equality resulting in negative discrimination against men, and so suspend their disbelief and in the process self a commercial for a Wall Street investment, firm people, Elizabeth Warren can go to rest without attacking wall. Street greed is down there giving his as a boost. Last question: how many times have you seen in your studies that this rears its ugly head and then just goes away. It stopped without real negative so that seventy two hour window, that's a real thing, Governor Ralph Northam,

would be gone if he have paid attention to the seventy two hour window, but he didn't. He said I, if I were to leave office now, according to reports, then be viewed as a racist for the rest of his career. Much better off, trying to stick it out and hoping some event down. The road gives him some other legacy, so he it at the seventy two hour window The outrage went away and the demo, that's a demanded. His head have now sorted begun. Recanting uhm, you see that frequently. Fortunately, you see the reverse more often on in part, because it's an insult on commercial vehicles, commercial entities, the twitter mob, which consists of maybe thirty, five hundred four thousand people. That's a really angry feels like the universe, come down around her shoulders in any firm with a fiduciary responsibility to its investors, feels Bottom line is imperiled by not acquiescing it's demands and more often than not they do, but if they pulled

asked for those seventy two hours a lot of times. It just goes away. Maybe sentiment. Doesn't the And there has been some transgression that is, do some sort of, Prize against the offender persist, but the, its effectiveness as getting as a vehicle for getting individuals, for example, fired from their jobs, who transgressed and just maybe said something inappropriate or maybe done something genuinely inappropriate. That is do a response. That goes away then that seventy two hour window and you see Some companies now respond by just not anything He saw Governor Northam and just basically the entire government of Virginia that was implicated in all those scandals couple months ago. They waited it out the movement, three to by collecting scalps which is why it's focused so much on its own 'cause. Those are The people who are listening for the most part If you're not listening to this organization, you can survive its wrath

and said that to me- indicates that it's not. This overpowering move, and that is overtaking our politics. It can and I'm treating it like it could cause. Think it's worthy of that kind of cautions. But I don't want to overstate the problem. I don't think this country is falling into a morass of totalitarian social justice, identity, politics tomorrow. No thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Just a reminder: I'd love you to rate and subscribe to the podcast and has his own to a friend, so it can be discovered by other people.