This podcast now and introduce you to somebody. Who's had a lot of struggle in her life and she is the least expected to have struggle in her life. She lived in the shadow of a very famous father, a man who led congregations around the world. Who was the pastor for president, I think from maybe Truman on in one of her books. She wrote. I know what it's like to sit in a pew with a broken heart. She has battled depression, addiction, shame, divorce, bulimia, unwed, pregnancy. Her latest book is forgiving, my father for giving myself it's a meditation on forgiveness and it she quotes. Pastor, Greg Ogden, who writes at the core of every human being, is the desire for deep and satisfying relationships, because we are all created in the image of God. Our conversation, I think it's proof of those words she starts out by telling me a secret and one. She was afraid to tell me Ruth Graham the daughter of Reverend Billy, Graham

How are you and I'm fine so good to see you have good to see you? I love you so much in here and I love you pray shaped you you're, a good woman who think and brave as people will find out. If they don't know your story, they will find out. But I want to talk to you first about some things that are have you been you may attention to Congo, West. I have as a matter fact. I was watching last night on the news when he was withdrawn. Hosting and just fascinated this fascinated with what happened. I dont know a story. I haven't heard a story, but I am fascinated there's couple things going on that, I'm I'd be interested in hearing from you. Somebody who has led the life that he did, I mean crazy oh yeah raise these with the car damaging civil rights, but

He seems to have had a road to Damascus kind of moment and I think the dog ugh piling on him when he said I was a trump supporter or not even that just We have to vote the way everybody thinks. I think that founded him in cash you truly be Truly in God's hands, If you haven't been pounded by him, two ADA vetoes or said a man can only use Amanda his broken? can't usually and greatly until his wounded him deeply. Something like that, and I think that's true Glenn. I think you and I would both the tests that in our own lives it was over. In broken that we felt, like God, really got a whole the bus and so on We can be grateful for that. Openness. Does we And- and I dont know anything about-

Kenya, but just look. My life and I think you could relate to this. You tend to puff yourself up when you really afraid you know like buffers puff yourself up, and you, you have to tell the story to keep going you're so wounded inside, but once you once you, Let go that's why, God can try right and I think. Those scripture says don't judge anything before its time, but God judge it, and I think it's. What we need to do is Kenya is to let him not use him because it so often Evan Jungles love to use a new testimony. You know- and I think we have to be careful paul- was sent to the desert for three years, so we need to give Kenya his three years. Whatever that means that doesn't even. Does it matter Because I've been saying to the audience, has this great twice

then I think and night taking him at face value. I think it might be real. That's great. However, he's going to make a mistake here because we all too, and it might even be- and I don't think it is, but it might even be frank and open I don't think so either, but. That shouldn't matter. Don't we get lost when we put our faith? in man, his his message is bringing people together and their effects. Period seeing someone, but it's cognitive and expert any lifting up the name of Jesus bright and that's important and Jesus said if they're not against us their force. So I'm gonna take look at face value and praise the Lord for an hour? This testimony are the days dear Father told me something First time we met, and I asked in person. Next, you

Where's, the next Abraham Lincoln and George Washington. And he said I don't think it's gonna happen that way. To tell you that. I'd love to hear your explanation of this. He said. That God is just gonna use all these little people each everybody so stand up in their own way and this is before the internet. Really. Can you help me and he said their altars could find each other there I'll start connecting and they'll think to themselves I'm alone, and how am I supposed to accomplish this and then they'll come with somebody else who was trying to accomplish something. They had the missing piece for this person in this person had the other missing piece and he said He'll come together that way, everyone will know it. Some man, it's God is it is got an Glenn. I attend Think that it might be fool the arts, in Congo may be a part of it. Look at the past. The crisis in what it did

come through the arts. It's not gonna go. Biggest gonna come from stadium preaching like my father, Certainly. There is room for that, but of it interested to see what gods gonna do he's very creative and you'll do what he wants. Your dad stadium preaching really changed the world and in many ways and he was unique very at that you think that time has passed. It is it is it let me rephrase it. Millennials their electoral law for I don't like to talk to the pastor this weekend. He said I say to my wife, sometimes on Sundays, I don't want to go to church is like you have, but they don't like church They don't like

the central. They don't like the doctrine that is spewed without the work they want to make a difference. They do so I kind of see this millennial generation going down in saying I dont like church and I and to understand it and agree with them. And no one seems to be saying: hey, let's go make a difference in oaks churches- holding the way we'll tonight defining it. That's not what is supposed to be. No, it's it's people right, it's people so. Are you? Are you optimistic about the trends you're, seeing with millennials or. I have to be optimistic because I know God is at work. I don't necessarily see it, but then I don't have to

no gods the one that's in charge- and I really just God to do what he's gonna do I read revelation couple some years ago to read to study it, and the only thing I came away with was God: has a plan and he's in charge and that's all I need to know really all we need now. How do you, You explain to people the christian movement that has law attached on to somebody like Donald Trump, I dont know going into that Glenn. I think this they like his policies. They don't for the man in the way which he uses in? But we After remember, he is it action worker from the Bronx that's what we got.

And he's rough he's very rough, but allow what policies I like his pro life policies like his Israel policy. I, like the way here loves the military and I think he loves this country. I do too, I agree with his China policy. I have lots of things that I disagree with you, but I can separate that. But you know impeachment. It's been going on, I've been doing some exposes on don't trumps, a hand grenade, the american people threw him into the oval office and he's gonna blow stuff up and He did with Ukraine, he blew some stuff up and a wall came down and if you can, the time to look you like, wait a minute you yet just him off he's? Ok, what is behind that wall? You know- and I want to ask you? Is there a difference between? being used for good.

And used for God or used by God, they can be one and the same, but I think. The ultimate good is God, so when we are doing good we are. Doing what God would have us do, but we don't necessarily at genoa, don't mean it this this way What you ve gone through, what I've gone through I've, made some horrible mistakes. I had bad decisions surrounded by sometimes bad, people drinking alcoholism. All bad. However, while vat was bad God used it forgotten who look I different, then somebody who is has been cut. Old by God.

Who is doing good works and God is really shaping him. God, I think, can use a good person and a wrecking ball? It doesn't matter exactly exactly hastened charge right and I trust him so. Talk a little bit about near earning a living. I am get to this later? I think I pulled it out here, there's a place in chapter ten caught me. Myself, my Other put ministry before family God gave him his family first, but he left his Let the pressures of his ministry take over. Leaving his family sometimes for six months. At a time I fell as if, when I needed him most, he was the farthest away,

He once estimated that, while we were growing up travel over fifty percent of the time and when he was home, he was tired, preoccupied and surrounded by staff and those who needed him. There were others nearly constantly present with him and our family our daughter of a daughter of a former you as president told me once staff ruins intimacy is right, the for long, thoughtful conversations or tender moments of intimate connection with my father was rare in a busy distracted. Father cannot spend much time developing relationship with a quiet middle child and In making I want to make very clear, I am not criticising my father, not in the least I think at one time you might have yes, I might, if you're not now, I'm not a place. I adored my father and you know that I just he was my hero and he still is amiss terribly, but it It is true that. His traveling did have

precautions in our life and each one of us. Maybe the handle, differently, I call the way I handled it, which was very destructive. I was looking for security. Because I didn't feel secure as alone girl, because he wasn't there and married early at eighteen that ended in divorce after twenty one years I had a rebound marriage that ended after three months I married again man that I really adored after ten years he decided he didn't want to be married. And then a married again, and this when last time we had a conversation, I fear If you part of my story what is but Too embarrassed to tell you about my fourth marriage, I was so for shame. It was, eating me alive and eaten me ever since, and I need to ask you forgiveness for that, because I wasn't totally honest with you. I wasn't transparent, we thought it was. You know I get left with the impression that I was, but I wasn't and

be very badly about that. Neither Oakland's, gonna find out have been made four times in use. They published a fraud, but I was looking for security. And it wasn't until someone looked at me, a conversation ahead with a friend in Nashville. Looked at me said Ruth. As a little girl you felt abandoned. I did not but to be true again my father's mohira adored him, but that piece of the puzzle fit. And since that day on, it was clear, but I didn't, need a man to take care of me. I had all needed in Jesus. But it wasn't until that point and after four marriages let's start list are they begin and I'm not married. Now I don't plan to get me can't little its let's. What's, let's come from, but slow start at the beginning as I've I've, I've dog it. A few pages is it's a great book of

Spiritual book, it's great book of common sense and and healing, and I think I know I know we all struggle with the same things, but nobody says them out loud, and so you think you're alone, and you think you re, You think I would have judged that way. I didn't know Glenn, but I was. I was grieved in my heart that I had done that to you and I just I wish you would have reached out cause well. I wish I had. We would have laughed bad its we set, and we make things worse because we are. Somehow or another convinced that. We're the only one to sit through screwed up. That's right, everybody is screwed up

but aren't you knew I screwed up three tat s. Why could I admit the fourth in it to me that we just over the top to high school? So let's leave. Let's start here. You start with a summer in Switzerland and your dad disciplines you for fighting with your brother, and and he decides he's gonna discipline you, but not your brother, who never tell a story. But we were all gathered together for family devotions and younger brother was kept poking me and I would put him back, unites children do and don't think of Billy Grams family. But which must have been a problem, but so My father stepped in his separate us need, but mother between us, he said now stop at man, so he pressed added to read the book, to us and my brother,

reached around front of mother and poked no preacher and mutton, her back and poked me and our reached around front and poked him that he saw me and he got me We put me over his knee any spanked me I was mortified because it wouldn't just the family was other free. Is that where they are and my father never Mr ever so I was heart broken, but here we close he wouldn't. Let me go cause. I want to go to my room after this banking. He would he held me close and help me. To his heart, which was a good lesson. You know. Sometimes we are the planned and it is hard but weeping. Help close the fathers heart, but you did, and feel that for a long time, not for a long time does I would I would imagine that I mean disciplining in front of a stranger, even the family embarrassment. You know humiliation. And then new not thinking, it was fair

wasn't right Cosette your brother? You know Did he say anything to you Papa? Did he. We always holding you No, just then he loved me and just to be still. You know that This was something he had to do that I was, I was wrong for reaching around and hitting him poking him. But he didn't see it, but my brother had poked me first but didn't matter to him. I guess, and obviously it's been sixty some years must remember. It's really made an impression on me, but you know there's something you have to. It is unfair, but we to forgive the unfair things that are rife. My I was raised in you your chapter forgiveness is unfair. I was rave raised. Life is unfair, promised you that life was fair and I think people are Knowing that, now that life can fair that somebody can make

this right, everybody gets a trophy right or wrong, or even you know, you had a hard life, so I'll fix that for you and it's theirs Kid there's no way to fix. You go on, so you you start talking about music. Talking about how its fear and then in in chapter three you talk about gods, heartbeat, and you said little did. I know that in truth, time. Berries all wounds that are not dealt with is is so I, and so much of my life saying how it's fine, I'm fine you know people would say: have you really dealt with your mother's suicide yeah, I'm fine,

how to deal with it I love that phrase. I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine and at well. How did you do with it? I just got over. It doesn't bother me. And I really truly believed that. But what you say berries all wounds. There. They are. Buried, they remain securely tucked away beneath layers of denial and repression until experienced a life altering trauma, one that should me too my core and threatened a tear off my well morn, but well worn mask. Suddenly I found my understanding of forgiveness holy Inadequate and I floundered bigtime tell me well that was, after my has infidelity had been married. Eighteen years and he'd been faithful for a number of years- and I was not appeared for that and grown up around honourable men and just never occurred to me that that he would have an affair and not just one

but several affairs for years and. I just the rug was that from under a just, and I floundered I didn't that's when I saw When a depression, I didn't have Sir. I felt like ahead of keep a mask on to pretend that everything is ok, but I'm sorry, a part of the seams. Oppression. Syrian, I didn't what was going on for years as this was, Nineteen ninety ray, I think Ninety three forget no ninety, ninety one and we Because we were divorced and ninety one and those that I expected to stand with me. Didn't they didn't understand, And they thought I should remain within reconcile at all costs, Even told to build an extra bedroom on my house having live in the house and I said Beth honouring to God said: God wants us to be honest,

so that was a rough time. There was a real rough time and but again It came through it and I was leaning on the Lord. The whole time sometimes not well, then again, I've. I had this rebound marriage because I wanted out. I didn't. I didn't want stamina, I wanted out. What does it mean? it means I did want to go through it I just want to escape this whole mess. But God wouldn't have that me have. Would let me do that. I had to face I had to deal with it and slowly but surely I did, but I kept making the same mistake over and over again it's interesting that to me at least that. We always say the same thing: why as is always happened to me. I'd like Why am I I always seem to be in ya. It's

It's not them? Never so long it. You have to realise we, everything changes around me. The only thing that hasn't changed is me have to face yourself and you have to face the Lord and people need to understand how much the Lord Muslim totally and completely there's nothing. We can do outside his love and that's a very wrong security that we have. He died for us,

even while we were centres and one of my personal. The disappointments and life. Yes, doing the jailer OSHA, and before I went on Andy Williams, called me he said: hey, I'm doing a show in palm springs tonight why don't you come down after Leno and we come to the show, my guess I didn't because I had to get back home in New York and he died right.

And the reason: why is she played a crucial role in my life, and I didn't even understand at times thirty mile my mother, We would listen to any Williams, Christmas, Helen and this time the sun little altar boy would come on would stand behind me and she would hold me to her and she would just hum it I was remember this is a really sweet kind of thing and. And she told me how much she loved me and they time she would be all choked up. And so I always associated that with my mom but I was a kid I didn't listen to the words until I was in my authorities and I did I realized She was asking me

to be an inner sesar for her because she wasn't. Is, she didn't, feel worthy to go to God. I think The burden for her wooden heard an that's, Why she died, you couldn't get passed her stuff you know, and I'm mother used to say of suicides, the God didn't call him home, but he I condemn home and I think that's a good way to look at it. You you don't until you been through real depression. People dont understand what that is. My my my guy who's, like my brother, we grew up together. His father committed suicide and his

asked her told his mom and he was a little kid. He remembers it am I mad as you would you know daddy's in Hell, oh dear yeah, no, no! Is there no brace there. And got us so much bigger than them so You you, Talk in your book about being wounded, deeply wounded. And you talk about how it's all a lie. But those loans are real, but you don't share them with anybody cause. It's a lie. You right, we all have an enemy, tells us that confession is the last thing we want to do he hole

those hostage to the fear of what others will think of us, but we his bondage, when we confess our sins to God to ourselves and those whom we have heard when we suppose ourselves. The enemy can no longer dangle that in front of us, the fear of being exposed. Tell me about this realization. Well, I think I remember particularly, I think, until the storing the book about a young woman, we were in a peer group together and we shared confidences- and I happened to break that confidence with a. Woman who wasn't in the programme and I felt miserable exactly what I done and I felt miserable and I knew I had forgiveness and confess it to her, and that was the last thing I want to do I wonder, run and hard. I didn't. I didn't want to see her, but ahead too, and you know you know she didn't know. So I to tell her what I had done and then I had asked her forgiveness and she had

sweet spirit, and she said, of course, and she stayed the per group and I did too and she continued to shear confidences, but I learned a lesson I learned a lesson, I was afraid that I wonder what you can think of me. Now she going take revenge if all those cuts thoughts that run through your head shit. None. She was just very gracious and very sweet to me and stayed in the programme. Sheer accomplices again till she trusted me again. So that's wonderful. Only God can forgive us, but so many, speak of forgiveness, of self. We all seem to know what it means to struggle to define it practically. My I don't like the concept of hell, no nobody'd half is right and I I don't understand how I just don't understand on some,

some religions where they believe, even if you, even if you a good person and you don't But you haven't gone to this church. You go to Hell, I find that so hard. To believe. I believe that an inquiry get up and find all kinds of different answers, but helps me is I believe that hell is wanting to be but next to your dad or your mom. But you have so much rap. That you haven't allowed to forgive yourself or be forgiven of that you had not approach.

It's not like God, is saying strong arm. God, it's always saying she is voicing who always open involve always come to me forgive, but if, if we We can forgive everybody else, but if we can, forgive ourselves. We can to come to him because we walk. You won't be able to look him in the eye. Well, end: course. I believe hills are real place and leave the Bible. Just that and I think it's a terrible place will we separated from God for Eternity Mccann imagining worse, We put ourselves through so much by masking pretending so. I think that we have Take it very seriously, but we can Come to God at any time, really all about Jesus. You know what He's just died for is mass. In your sin and.

While he was being nailed to the cross. He said father. Give them that's what makes forgiveness sacred. It is a sacrament, I mean what Jesus went through it. You know if we can't forgive someone even ourselves been a little time at the foot of the cross from hunger. Amazing: it is a truly amazing concept that. He would he didn't defend himself. He we he took it. He knew what was coming added his face towards Jerusalem right and he didn't want to do it, but for giving them while their driving nails into him. I am I. I dont ever see Jesus as an angry guy, but I it's my relationship with him. I can. I can see him gone. Why is wrong? What is wrong with you that he did all of this and then

You could forgive others why I'd no no, that was my job with everybody else and you did Joe. You know you did a good thing by for giving them, but MIKE to you. You won't accept, so we're saying with the cross is of no effect right we're not With everybody else, but we are not in that's wrong. Have you have you noticed how much your book follows I should say Your book is biblical, and so was the what our colleagues the big one. Have you noticed how much you are in line with new? Have a it's its remarkable. In our principles are true,

an absolute rule is true. Truth is right in it and, if healing, if we believe healing comes from God, he's gonna courage that as many times as it possibly can. I was really struck by this. When you talked about a councillor asked me on except unexpectedly. If I had suddenly used my sexuality to attract men, I said yes and the first time in my life I admitted it to a real life person, as left the office, I felt happy why? Because freak I didn't have to cure that burden anymore. It would secret anymore and I was free. Why do you have to do that to a person? I don't think you have to For me, it's good an end

the Bible says confess your sin to one another that you may be healed and but you may be whole, so I'd that's good for me, that's my personality. I thank you, but I think you're right in a fifth step. Is you have to? U make no moral amatory? Then you have to at some point and you have to pick wisely. Yes, you do know that you're, not loading up. Oh you know, an enemy are summarised in a gibbet trusted per somebody that you can say the worse to that will throw it away right and it means nothing to them, but you have to actually say the words out loud to eight. Person looking at them in the eye. Why do you think that change Us. Why is it not? Why is it not enough to confess to fast to the people that you ve hurt. Wiser why do you think? I think it's

to confess out loud to someone I mean the catholic Church has a hands down in that area. Nokia and it works. You know em I once was gonna. Have a conference and we're gonna have a confessional booth so that we could go in there and confess this country, It is good for the salt. We ve heard that before and I think it's a wonderful tool it's not the end, all be all, but it's a one. Four tool to get to the end where we want to be with. We want to be clean before Jesus and before others? You choose a person well, You pray ass, the Lord to show you how it might be or go to a councillor go to. A trusted friend got a pastor and say who would you trust? This is what I want to do Would you suggest or just watch watch people littered who to other people, trust. And you eventually discern who that person might be and its Ask them, can I view,

it was a confessional confessor and they may a little surprised, but no Late autumn, without asking them and get preparing them. I want you You talk about bitterness in the book and I think this I know to come back to bitterness I think it's, your fourth husband is not telling yourself the truth. Yes, yes, feel comfortable telling a story you ok. So when was this This was in two thousand. I married him. Two thousand men and it lasted two of two thousand and eleven and he he was not one time we met him. He was not nice to me. He was the one that actually introduce meteor radio show

and used to like me. It was not nice to me- and he was emotionally abusive? just about every way he never hit me, but I don't think people understand. Emotional abuse is illegal in the scars or justice, the exact Steve. Nobody can see em right again. Do you feel crazy? You know just where you get beat women or whoever is on the receiving end is convinced, while I cause than and emotional abuses, even more because perhaps just imagining that well, Kip giving my pieces of myself away just to make him happy Well, that's just means I kept trying to please him. I kept doing everything I could to please and make him happy and it just didn't work heat. In love with me and he said that up front and your kids know Kids. All my kids were furious that I married him.

But what it that due to you? Well, it hurt me and I should have just walked away when I realized that none of them like them, That point was too caught up. I was two I needed that security I needed. Those arms around me needs somebody walk through life with me. This is before you realize I've abandoned yes exactly. I did not know that that was a guest ears years of counselling. Nobody ever said that to me, which would think somebody was set, especially, If you have history with your dad exactly, but nobody ever said that to me only said, never heard it. So this man was manipulative. He was the narcissist he's a sociopath and I just feel right into his trap and He knew he'd normal family for a long time, so he knew all the buttons to push, and I just I fell into it and

I realize I made a terrible mistake again, but how could I admit that how could I possibly admit that specially? to your children? Yes, exactly you were right, to me and he wait, wait, wait, wait so did that say. To you, that you would think I can't tell my children, because why, they'll say I'm the mother, you know them. This post to have it altogether and I really didn't have it altogether too I'm going to admit to them and Fourth, husband had a terrible accident and I was on the I was on my computer and my assistant was the phone I can hear say something and I hope my ears, picked up and she said: let me get her on the phone, so assistant came in and said, there's somebody on the phone for you and I picked up the phone

They asked me if my husband, what my medications my husband, was on, and I wait a minute who are you and she said, there's been a terrible accident and your husband. I need to know your husband's medications. I said I'll go, Then she said no bring them and it was an hour and a half drive, so I drove I had no idea what to expect, but when I hold in high level Officer was standing at the emergency door, any civil pick up the trauma centre and a war. In a team of doktor surrounded me and they said Lisbon is on life support and it was. I was really strange feeling a list of all these. Traumas to his body, and I must- I've I think we're shock and I looked up at him. Is it these life threatening anyone of almost life threatening so I want to see him and they said: may shouldn't I said. No, I want to see him so

doubt to his room and I saw him and he didn't look recognisable. He was a mess. But when I had the strongest sense of God's presence, I knew that I was in his hands. The he was gonna take care of me. And he did it was months recovery, months of recovery in and really abuse. He was ugly to me even then so didn't you have an argument right before. Yes, he was leaving to have his car serviced enrichment and He had not worked for three years and I need hymns begins to make money for the family, I couldn't of what I was making, but he wouldn't, you just made no effort whatsoever, and so I said to him again I said Gregg you ve got to get a job and he First at me with a crude word and walked out the door, and I could now and

what does that mean to you? What was that feeling to you well, it was again unbundled again. I've got some, How figure this out of pit in your stuff? Oh, yes, oh yes, but had to figure it out and my sister was coming with minutes. So I had to put the mask on and pretend everything was okay and went to work You haven't confided with any now know no one, and My children figured it out, but I hadn't told any How did they figure now or they just didn't like him and they he tried to let them away. He was a control freak and he shut them away. Didn't want them around. He made sure that I was from them and my children, mean so much to me. I mean you know when I am just a door, my children, but he made isolated me and, I knew I had to get out of the box, but how.

And so when the key came in a hurry, an accident, I thought knew what God, how much more can I take but I went, I drove down to Richmond and saw him and Jen overwhelming sense that God was with me and he was gonna showing what to do, and he did he did I quickly and that he had put me in debt to the top of a hundred thousand dollars. That was news to me. I was just floored, so he had been running up credit card billions or whatever So I had to sort that out to the seller home, which he was unhappy. About, but I said I have no choice. I have to sell the house How how was he d lose? Lawson arm lost an arm had to go through dialysis ray and me what worthy? What was the extent of the injury while he lost an arm? He had to go through dialysis, he was and then later

And arm Helen, probably couple weeks and then he had a brain bleed He was even a bad shape in bad shape, but he would. Got him into rehab and he in all we got him patched up and got him home for Christmas, and I was really pleased and we went to church together, Minos and I thought well. Maybe this will be a turning point. Maybe this will get his attention. It didn't, and, I had to sell the house I had I had to move on pay off their debts and and move on, and He became very angry and that's when he's filed for her divorce what was it? turning point from there, How did you not turn takes me back a chapter new book.

How does this not turn into bitterness? Glenn, I think- Baroness as part of the human experience, and I think we we do become bitter, but we it stay there, but the Bible says: don't let a of bitterness, Dignan deepened spring up into file of the people. I knew I would experience bitterness I couldn't live there. I couldn't set up camp, I had move on and you do that with the scriptures. You know that We firmly that the scripture is Truth of God We use that in our minds to renew our minds. So I agree with you now tell me because I think there is a parallel that runs in everybody's life effect. Read this scourge. I love the way. You tell a story, you say. Can you think of a person who nearly always finds it? You find particularly hard to forgive you

if you're anything like me, the answer that question is yes, yes me, how can we forgive ourselves, especially when we're of repeat offenders The hand was a second. There was. Shoot. Where was it? It was where you were talking about this one, just one, I'm sorry, one afternoon the phone rang. I picked and I heard her instantly- I felt knots in my stomach. I pretended to be glad to hear from her while I familiar internal script scrolling through my mind. She is so patronising and controlling I've tried, but I can hardly bear to interact with her if she tells me one more time: dot, dot, dot, Here's the important line- When come to your mind when you read than me out and as I am reading that I think everybody does and then in or case extreme here's a guy abusive and you too,

do everything you can. He then are with him and you nurse him back to health. And he's even worse, and you know he put you in debt- he wasted all this time? Another not too, where you're like four ridiculous, I even question whether a believer in I thought, how can I keep making these men these mistake, eggs. I really doubt it If I had known the Lord at all, but reassured me that I did known in that area. Safe in his arms and. The reason why you kept making these mistakes. Tell me about. The discovery after this relating Jim. A? How did you not hold onto bitterness with him. Because that's what we're doing in

in all of our lives right now we were constantly being told something. We are constantly fighting were constantly having to stand up and fight for simple things that we shouldn't have to fight for and we tried, we ve all tried to be good and I'm target people on both sides will feel this way politically. And now we're so embittered and we're like it's not my fault. It's your fault How do you let that go? So it's anger, we don't go on our own. You know, that's where the Holy Spirit has to come in and You have to ask the Holy Spirit to intervene and beat our helper. God Jesus says he is our help or he's our comforter he's our advocate. We ask him to come in and help us it, but if it's a day- Glad they think forgiveness, letting go of bitterness is not an overnight thing. It it may take a lifetime

but we have to be working through that process and it is a lifetime process. But I know from me and it was, I wrote about it in the book. I had always when people talked about divorce. Always cringe knew me and. One day I was in Sunday School Class and the Sunday teacher was comparing the Corinth of Paul's day. Our culture today and he asked, question winded? We begin this downward slide in someone in the back yard that when we except a divorce, will normally have a la now, but I didn't and I heard him, but it didn't affect me so after, takes a Ruth. Please come he's asked so sorry, I meant to say easy divorce and I realized- I was standing in ruins ate one. There is now for no condemnation to those who in Christ. Jesus cannot. You will have happened. Can I tell you where it happened now?

I just can tell you that it did happen, and that is a miracle. I remember I don't remember the specific time like you. But I remember conversion I remember being baptized clearly and I remember making that commitment. That's livestock conversion, and then one day, four years later. I realized. I only want to do good. I only want to do these things. I don't I'm not that we anymore- and I can't tell you when it happened. No, but it does we open ourselves up for it. God will see that it happens. And that's how you got rid of your bitterness and using the scriptures renewing my man that. I didn't want to be a bitter person, I've seen their people and then they not pretty did Mombi a better person I wanted

spirit, fill my life and give me peace and contentment and courage and enhanced The EU offers little talk about when that person said to you or abandon, why? Why? How did that connect? How did you see that how did that not connect with you before I have no idea. I have no idea because this it absolutely right there in front of your face. That's what You're staying with these bad guys, because I want security yeah, you know they leave and then who am? I an My father never knew this. He was conversant by the time I discovered this of course he's hearing our conversation now, so he knows and you it would hurt his heart. But he said in his memoirs. You know. I am sure that my absences had a profound fact on my children and they did

I'm telling my story, not my siblings story, because they react differently than I did. We all do but I just I was grateful that a family discovered my core issue. That was my court and we all have one New Samson is an illustration of the book. His passion was his core issue. He couldn't, no a woman, you know he was just a mess, but God used him. Use them to judge Israel for twenty years. In a why, lucid and he proves eleven the chapter faith. Why? only by the grace of God, but I mean He had he did nothing to deserve it. Not a thing I mean Samson was really forever. Key character? He did. Anything wrong, and he went out of his way to do things wrong, but guy, used him anyway not deserve it,. And that gives me hope here

they simply kind of want to see those people who have done wrong intentional, you know get there come up ends but gods in charge of that year gods and not me? I know I've. I have in my worst times, had these for a while, but in my The times when. I feel like I've done everything and I'm just fighting the world. I'm like when, When are you coming we're swing in avow here? When are you show up for the fight and I'll, never forget. I have heard the several times in my prayers, but he has been very clear and almost stern with me? the way we have a very different. But almost stern These are not enemies, of your he's, her enemies of mine.

And I will deal with them. In my time this term is not art. Is time is not our time and his way of dealing with them may not be the way I would deal with it. You know we we We want revenge and were so, We're self hating egomaniac in the choir night, we hate ourselves selves in our worst days and but The rest of it is either. Hiding that wound or we actually believe. I know best it the craziest combination swear the word of God has to play and we have to renew our mind but the scriptures, because we will be safe, self hating, but we know that God loves totally and completely unconditionally and that

What my father showed me, you know I told us or at the funeral, where my father accepted me home after this. Marriage and just- welcomed me home no questions asked That showed me what God was like because that's what God does for us. And I told that story- the funeral- I loved you done- I didn't you don't know- I dont know. If I dont know cause. I met him towards the end, so I didn't I didn't see the fire you know, there's a fire. He may I've gotten along with me at all, you would have enjoyed you and he had a special places. Hartfield Glenn. I truly believe that just Of him just loved him and I've just never seen anyone

though it piece you know he was. He was not troubled now, was he said to me. One point he said cuz was like. Please try and he's not talk. I mean it's he's not loud enough sometimes, and I'm tryin, and I don't know what I'm doing and I'm bluffing half the time and He looked at me and he said I'm not afraid to die, and it was I mean I can see his eyes when I say that we were so called. And he held MA am and he said I have food. So much up, I have I have tried. My whole time: I've tried but I know I failed all in areas. I didn't even realise that I'll find out. He said I tried. I try

and I know all my shortcomings will be covered- absolutely any trusted that with every fibre is being. The blood of Jesus washes all away. Tell me what happened. When you told your children, about the fourth marriage. How did they re at the end of it? we're pleased. There were no question about it and there was nothing that you had in your head not one. Second of that- it tells us during the book were I ask forgiveness, I had to go to each other. And say: will you forgive me and they say- oh mom, you don't need ask us for your forgiveness. And I said yes, I do I suddenly hear from you and so on. Each one of monopolies and ask for forgiveness, and they said of course, mother And that's freeing for mother right. And wise and importantly, who heard that.

It just was I just needed to hear from them, because I had done so much damage. I'd, I'd really made such things and they love He threw it to think. You didn't, have their voices. Recorded by your eyes and ears and you would have known it anyway that they forgave you. What do you think it all that would have been handled handing a tool to the adversary to play, the whispers of night. Probably I think when we asked for forgiveness, we take the tools away from him and God gives us a whole new set of tools. And I am very grateful to my children. There is nothing like living in the bright light. You know because when times come their hard and they are hard in every family in every

When you know I'm clean snow worry and it's nothing had from twere your dad. Wasn't he murmured? So are you there? I think so. I am, tent. I'm I'm mom, I'm at peace, truly petroleum and am grateful. I have family members who have been true. And have abandonment issue and. And they are getting better, they really are but its eye. It's a journey. It's a journey and you you see cure you think you're good even when you open everything up, you think you're good What's nice? Is you get to appoint

You like our way, there's something else here and it just It's better and better, and the enemy will try to bring our emotions back and say we ve. EL. The revenge will feel the bitterness will feel all the anger. That doesn't mean we haven't forgiven. It means that we need to. Let it go. And because emotions don't tell the truth, God's word tells us the truth and his word will make us better and better as both good emotions and better emotions don't tell it right before you're. Fourth, marriage didn't tell the truth. There are probably standing on tiptoe yelling and I also thank you think The planned bless agent. Book is for giving my father for giving myself by my friend Ruth. Graham,

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