Few people would expect the daughter of the late world-renowned evangelist Billy Graham to have the history of depression, divorce, addiction, and emotional abuse that she does. But through it all, she held tightly to God and has learned to forgive her husbands, her father, and even herself. Ruth Graham speaks with Glenn about the life she hid and the life of Christ she believes can work miracles in everyone. She reveals her deepest lessons learned growing up as the middle child of the pastor to the presidents, what Christians see in President Trump, and why she praises the Lord for Kanye West.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This podcast now and introduce you to somebody. Who's had a lot of struggle in her life and she is the least expected to have struggle in her life. She lived in the shadow of a very famous father, a man who led congregations around the world. Who was the pastor for president, I think from maybe Truman on in one of her books. She wrote. I know what it's like to sit in a pew with a broken heart. She has battled depression, addiction, shame, divorce, bulimia, unwed, pregnancy. Her latest book is forgiving, my father for giving myself it's a meditation on forgiveness and it she quotes. Pastor, Greg Ogden, who writes at the core of every human being, is the desire for deep and satisfying relationships, because we are all created in the image of God. Our conversation, I think it's proof of those words she starts out by telling me a secret and one. She was afraid to tell me Ruth Graham the daughter of Reverend Billy, Graham
How are you and I'm fine so good to see you have good to see you? I love you so much in here and I love you pray shaped you you're, a good woman who think and brave
as people will find out. If they don't know your story, they will find out.
But I want to talk to you first about some things that are have you been
you may attention to Congo, West. I have
as a matter fact. I was watching last night on the news when he was withdrawn.
Hosting and just
fascinated this fascinated with what happened. I dont know a story. I haven't heard a story, but I am fascinated
there's couple things going on that, I'm I'd be interested in hearing from you.
Somebody who has led the life that he did, I mean crazy
oh yeah raise these with the car damaging civil rights, but
He seems to have had a road to Damascus kind of moment and I think the dog
ugh piling on him when he said I was a trump supporter or not even that just
We have to vote the way everybody thinks. I think that
founded him in cash
you truly be
Truly in God's hands,
If you haven't been pounded by him,
two ADA vetoes or said a man
can only use Amanda his broken?
can't usually and greatly until his wounded him
deeply. Something like that, and I think that's true Glenn. I think you and I would both the tests that in our own lives it was over.
In broken that we felt, like God, really got a whole
the bus and so on
We can be grateful for that.
Openness. Does we
And- and I dont know anything about-
Kenya, but just look.
My life and I think you could relate to this.
You tend to puff yourself up when you really afraid you know like buffers puff yourself up, and
you, you have to tell the story to keep going you're so wounded inside, but once you once you,
Let go that's why,
God can try right and I think.
Those scripture says don't judge anything before its time, but God judge it, and I think
it's. What we need to do is Kenya is to let him
not use him because it so often Evan Jungles love to use a new testimony. You know- and I think we have to be careful paul- was sent to the desert for three years, so we need to give Kenya his three years. Whatever that means that doesn't even.
Does it matter
Because I've been saying to the audience, has this great twice
then I think and night taking him at face value. I think it might be real. That's great. However,
he's going to make a mistake here because we all too, and it might even be- and I don't think it is, but it might even be frank and open
I don't think so either, but.
That shouldn't matter. Don't we get lost when we put our faith?
in man, his
his message is bringing people together and their effects.
Period seeing someone, but it's
cognitive and expert any lifting up the name of Jesus bright and that's important and Jesus said if they're not against us their force. So I'm gonna take
look at face value and
praise the Lord for an hour? This testimony are the days dear
Father told me something
First time we met, and I
asked in person. Next, you
Where's, the next Abraham Lincoln and George Washington.
And he said I don't think it's gonna happen that way.
To tell you that.
I'd love to hear your explanation of this. He said.
That God is just gonna use all these little people
each everybody so stand up in their own way and
this is before the internet. Really. Can you help me and he said their altars could find each other there I'll start connecting and they'll think to themselves I'm alone, and how am I supposed to accomplish this and then they'll come
with somebody else who was trying to accomplish something.
They had the missing piece for this person in this person had the other missing piece and he said
He'll come together that way, everyone will know it. Some man, it's God is it is got an Glenn. I attend
Think that it might be fool the arts,
in Congo may be a part of it. Look at the past.
The crisis in what it did
come through the arts. It's not gonna go.
Biggest gonna come from stadium preaching like my father,
There is room for that, but of it
interested to see what gods gonna do he's very creative and you'll do what he wants.
Your dad stadium preaching
really changed the world and in many ways
and he was unique very at that
you think that time has passed. It is it is it
let me rephrase it.
Millennials their electoral law
for I don't like to talk to the pastor this weekend. He said I say to my wife, sometimes on Sundays, I don't want to go to church is like you have, but they don't like church
They don't like
the central. They don't like the doctrine that is spewed without the work they want to make a difference. They do so
I kind of see this millennial generation
going down in saying I dont like church and I
and to understand it and agree with them.
And no one seems to be saying: hey, let's go make a difference in oaks churches-
holding the way we'll tonight defining it.
That's not what is supposed to be. No, it's it's people right, it's people so.
Are you? Are you optimistic about the trends you're, seeing with
I have to be optimistic because I know God is at work. I don't
necessarily see it, but then I don't have to
no gods the one that's in charge- and I really
just God to do what he's gonna do
I read revelation
couple some years ago to read to study it, and the only thing I came away with was God: has a plan and he's in charge and that's all I need to know
really all we need now.
How do you,
You explain to people
the christian movement
that has law
attached on to somebody like Donald Trump,
I dont know going into that Glenn. I think this
they like his policies. They don't
for the man in the way
which he uses in? But we
After remember, he is it
action worker from the Bronx
that's what we got.
And he's rough he's very rough, but allow
what policies I like his pro life policies like his Israel policy. I, like the way here
loves the military and I think he loves this country. I do too,
I agree with his China policy. I have lots of things that I disagree with you, but I can
separate that. But you know
It's been going on, I've been doing some
don't trumps, a hand grenade,
the american people threw him into the oval office and he's gonna blow stuff up and
He did with Ukraine, he blew some stuff up and a wall came down and if you can,
the time to look you like,
wait a minute you yet
just him off he's? Ok, what is behind that wall? You know- and I want
to ask you? Is there a difference between?
being used for good.
And used for God or used by God,
they can be one and the same, but I
think. The ultimate good is God, so
when we are doing good we are.
Doing what God would have us do, but
we don't necessarily at genoa, don't mean it this this way
What you ve gone through, what I've gone through I've, made some horrible mistakes. I had bad
decisions surrounded by sometimes bad,
people drinking alcoholism. All bad. However, while
vat was bad
God used it forgotten who look I
different, then somebody who is has been cut.
Old by God.
Who is doing good works and God is really shaping him.
God, I think, can use a good person and a wrecking ball? It doesn't matter exactly exactly hastened charge right and I trust him so.
Talk a little bit about near
earning a living.
get to this later? I think I pulled it out here, there's a
place in chapter ten caught me.
Other put ministry before family
God gave him his family first, but he left his
Let the pressures of his ministry take over.
Leaving his family sometimes for six months. At a time I fell
as if, when I needed him most, he was the farthest away,
He once estimated that, while we were growing up travel over fifty percent of the time and when he was home, he was tired, preoccupied and surrounded by staff
and those who needed him.
There were others nearly constantly present with him and our family
our daughter of a daughter of a former you as president told me once staff ruins intimacy is right,
the for long, thoughtful conversations or tender moments of intimate connection with my father was rare in a busy distracted. Father cannot spend much time developing relationship with a quiet
middle child and
In making I want to make very clear, I am not criticising my father, not in the least I think at one time you might have yes, I might, if you're not now, I'm not a place. I adored my father and you know that I just he was my hero and he still is amiss
terribly, but it
It is true that.
His traveling did have
precautions in our life and each one of us. Maybe the handle,
call the way I handled it, which was very destructive. I was looking for security.
Because I didn't feel secure as alone girl, because he wasn't there and
married early at eighteen that ended in divorce after twenty one years
I had a rebound marriage that ended after three months
I married again man that I really adored
after ten years he decided he didn't want to be married.
And then a married again, and this
when last time we had a conversation, I fear
If you part of my story what is but
Too embarrassed to tell you about my fourth marriage, I was so for shame. It was,
eating me alive and eaten me ever since, and I need to ask you forgiveness for that, because I wasn't totally honest with you. I wasn't transparent,
we thought it was. You know I get left with the impression that I was, but I wasn't and
be very badly about that. Neither Oakland's, gonna find out have been made four times in use. They published a fraud, but I was looking for security.
And it wasn't until someone looked at me,
a conversation ahead with a friend in Nashville.
Looked at me said Ruth.
As a little girl you felt abandoned. I did not
but to be true again
my father's mohira adored him, but that piece of the puzzle fit.
And since that day on, it was clear,
but I didn't, need a man to take care of me.
I had all needed in Jesus.
But it wasn't until that point and after four marriages
let's start list are they begin and I'm not married. Now I don't plan to get me can't little its let's. What's, let's come from, but slow start at the beginning as I've I've, I've dog it. A few pages is it's a great book of
Spiritual book, it's great book of common sense and and healing, and I think I know
I know we all struggle with the same things, but nobody says them out loud, and so you think you're alone, and you think you re,
You think I would have judged
that way. I didn't know Glenn, but I was. I was grieved in my heart that I had done that to you and I just I wish you would have reached out cause well. I wish I had. We would have laughed bad
its we set, and we make things worse
because we are.
Somehow or another convinced that.
We're the only one to sit through screwed up. That's right,
everybody is screwed up
but aren't you knew I screwed up three tat s. Why could I admit the fourth in it to me that we just over the top to high school? So let's leave. Let's start here. You start with a summer in Switzerland and your dad disciplines you for fighting with your brother,
and and he decides he's gonna discipline you, but not your brother, who never tell a story.
But we were all gathered together for family devotions and
younger brother was kept poking me and
I would put him back, unites children do and
don't think of Billy Grams family.
But which must have been a problem, but so
My father stepped in his separate us need, but mother between us, he said now stop at man, so he pressed
added to read the book,
to us and my brother,
reached around front of mother and poked no preacher and mutton, her back and poked me and our reached around front and poked him that he saw me and he got me
We put me over his knee any spanked me
I was mortified because it wouldn't just the family was other free.
Is that where they are and my father never
Mr ever so I was heart broken, but here
we close he wouldn't. Let me go cause. I want to go to my room after this banking. He would he held me close and help me.
To his heart, which was a good lesson. You know. Sometimes we are
the planned and it is hard but weeping.
Help close the fathers heart, but you did,
and feel that for a long time, not for a long time does I would
I would imagine that I mean
disciplining in front of a stranger, even the family embarrassment. You know humiliation.
And then new
not thinking, it was fair
wasn't right Cosette your brother? You know
Did he say anything to you Papa? Did he.
We always holding you
No, just then he loved me and just to be still. You know that
This was something he had to do that I was, I was wrong for reaching around and hitting him poking him.
But he didn't see it, but my brother had poked me first but
didn't matter to him. I guess, and obviously it's been sixty some years must remember. It's really made an impression on me, but you know there's something you have to. It is unfair, but we
to forgive the unfair things that are rife.
My I was raised in you
your chapter forgiveness is unfair. I was rave raised. Life is unfair, promised you that life was fair and I think people are
Knowing that, now that life can
fair that somebody can make
this right, everybody gets a trophy right or wrong,
or even you know, you had a hard life, so I'll fix that for you and it's theirs
Kid there's no way to fix.
You go on, so you you start talking about music.
Talking about how its
fear and then in in chapter three
you talk about gods, heartbeat,
and you said little did. I know that
time. Berries all wounds that are not dealt with is is so I,
and so much of my life saying how it's fine, I'm fine
you know people would say: have you really dealt with your mother's suicide yeah, I'm fine,
how to deal with it
I love that phrase. I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine and at well. How did you do with it? I just got over. It doesn't bother me.
And I really truly believed that.
But what you say
berries all wounds.
There. They are.
Buried, they remain securely
tucked away beneath layers of denial and repression until
experienced a life altering trauma, one that should
me too my core and threatened a tear off my well morn, but well worn mask. Suddenly I found my understanding of forgiveness holy
Inadequate and I floundered bigtime tell me
well that was, after my has
infidelity had been married. Eighteen years and he'd been
faithful for a number of years- and I was not
appeared for that and grown up around honourable men and just never occurred to me that that he would have an affair and not just one
but several affairs for years and.
I just the rug was
that from under a just,
and I floundered I didn't that's when I saw
When a depression, I didn't have
Sir. I felt like ahead of keep a mask on to pretend that everything is ok, but I'm sorry,
a part of the seams.
Oppression. Syrian, I didn't
what was going on for years as this was,
Nineteen ninety ray, I think
forget no ninety, ninety one and we
Because we were divorced and ninety one and
those that I expected to stand with me. Didn't they didn't understand,
And they thought I should remain within reconcile at all costs,
Even told to build an extra bedroom on my house having live in the house and I said Beth
honouring to God said: God wants us to be honest,
so that was a rough time. There was a real rough time and but again
It came through it and I was leaning on the Lord. The whole time sometimes not well, then again, I've. I had this rebound marriage because I wanted out. I didn't.
I didn't want stamina, I wanted out. What does it mean?
it means I did want to go through it
I just want to escape this whole mess.
But God wouldn't have that me have. Would let me do that. I had to face
I had to deal with it
and slowly but surely I did, but
I kept making the same mistake over and over again
it's interesting that to me at least that.
We always say the same thing: why
as is always happened to me. I'd like
Why am I I always seem to be in ya. It's
It's not them? Never so long it. You have to realise we,
everything changes around me. The only thing that hasn't changed is me
have to face yourself and you have to face the Lord and
people need to understand how much the Lord Muslim
totally and completely there's nothing.
We can do
outside his love and that's a very
wrong security that we have. He died for us,
even while we were centres and one of my personal.
The disappointments and life.
doing the jailer OSHA, and
before I went on Andy Williams, called me
he said: hey, I'm doing a show in palm springs tonight
why don't you come down after Leno and
we come to the show, my guess
I didn't because I had to get back home in New York
and he died right.
And the reason: why is she
played a crucial role in my life, and I didn't even understand at times thirty mile
We would listen to any Williams, Christmas, Helen and
this time the sun little altar boy would come on
would stand behind me and she would hold me
to her and
she would just hum it
I was remember this is a really sweet kind of thing
And she told me how much she loved me and
they time she would be all choked up.
I always associated that with my mom
but I was a kid
I didn't listen to the words until I was in my authorities and
I did I realized
She was asking me
to be an inner sesar for her because she wasn't.
Is, she didn't, feel worthy
to go to God. I think
The burden for her wooden heard an that's,
Why she died, you couldn't get
stuff you know, and
I'm mother used to say of suicides, the God didn't call him home, but he
I condemn home and I think that's a good way to look at it. You you don't until you
been through real depression.
People dont understand what that is.
My my my guy who's, like my brother,
we grew up together. His father committed suicide and his
asked her told his mom and he was a little kid. He remembers it am I mad as you would
you know daddy's in Hell, oh dear yeah, no, no!
Is there no brace there.
And got us so much bigger than them so
Talk in your book about being wounded, deeply wounded.
And you talk about how it's all a lie.
But those loans are real,
but you don't share them with anybody cause. It's a lie. You right,
we all have an enemy,
tells us that confession is the last thing we want to do he hole
those hostage to the fear of what others will think of us, but we
his bondage, when we confess our sins to God to ourselves and those whom we have heard when we
suppose ourselves. The enemy can no longer dangle that in front of us, the fear
of being exposed. Tell me about this realization. Well, I think
I remember particularly, I think, until the storing the book about a young woman, we were in a peer group together and we shared confidences- and I happened to break that confidence with a.
Woman who wasn't in the programme
and I felt miserable exactly what I done and I felt miserable
and I knew I had
forgiveness and confess it to her, and that was the last thing I want to do
I wonder, run and hard. I didn't. I didn't want to see her, but ahead too,
and you know you know she didn't know. So I
to tell her what I had done and then I had asked her forgiveness and she had
sweet spirit, and she said, of course, and she stayed
the per group and I did too and she continued to shear confidences, but I learned a lesson
I learned a lesson,
I was afraid that I wonder what you can think of me. Now she going take revenge if all those cuts
thoughts that run through your head shit. None.
She was just very gracious and very sweet to me and stayed in the programme.
Sheer accomplices again till she trusted me again. So that's wonderful.
Only God can forgive us, but so many,
speak of forgiveness, of self.
We all seem to know what it means to struggle to define it practically.
My I don't like the concept of hell,
no nobody'd half is right and I I don't understand how
I just don't understand on some,
some religions where they believe, even if you, even if you
a good person and you don't
But you haven't gone to this church. You go to Hell,
I find that so hard.
To believe. I believe that an inquiry
get up and find all kinds of different answers, but
helps me is
I believe that hell is
wanting to be but
next to your dad or your mom.
But you have
so much rap.
That you haven't allowed to
forgive yourself or be forgiven of that you had not approach.
It's not like God, is saying strong arm.
God, it's always saying
she is voicing who always open involve always come to me forgive, but if, if we
We can forgive everybody else, but if we can,
forgive ourselves. We can
to come to him because we walk.
You won't be able to look him in the eye. Well, end:
course. I believe hills are real place and leave the Bible.
Just that and I think it's a terrible place
will we separated from God for Eternity Mccann imagining worse,
We put ourselves through so much by masking pretending so.
I think that we have
Take it very seriously, but we can
Come to God at any time,
really all about Jesus. You know what
He's just died for is mass.
In your sin and.
While he was being nailed to the cross. He said father.
Give them that's what
makes forgiveness sacred. It is a sacrament, I mean
what Jesus went through it. You know if we can't forgive someone even ourselves
been a little time at the foot of the cross from hunger.
Amazing: it is a truly amazing concept that.
He would he didn't defend himself. He we he took it. He knew what was coming added his face towards Jerusalem right and he
didn't want to do it, but for giving them while their driving nails into him. I am I.
I dont ever see Jesus as an angry guy, but I
it's my relationship with him. I can. I can see him gone. Why is wrong? What is wrong with you that he did all of this and then
You could forgive others why I'd
no no, that was my job with everybody else and you did
Joe. You know you did a good thing by for giving them, but MIKE
You won't accept, so we're saying with the cross is of no effect right
With everybody else, but we are not in that's wrong.
Have you have you noticed how much your book follows
I should say
Your book is biblical,
and so was the what our colleagues
the big one.
Have you noticed how much you are in line with new? Have a it's
In our principles are true,
an absolute rule is true. Truth is right in it and, if healing, if we believe healing comes from God, he's gonna
courage that as many times as it possibly can. I was really struck by this. When
you talked about a councillor asked me on except
unexpectedly. If I had suddenly used my sexuality to attract men, I said yes and
the first time in my life I admitted it to a real life person, as
left the office, I felt happy why? Because freak
I didn't have to cure that burden anymore. It would
secret anymore and I was free.
Why do you have to do that to a person? I don't think you have to
For me, it's good an end
the Bible says confess your sin to one another that you may be healed and
but you may be whole, so I'd
that's good for me, that's my personality. I thank you, but I think you're right in a fifth step. Is you have to? U make no moral amatory? Then you have to
at some point and you have
to pick wisely. Yes, you do know that you're, not loading up. Oh you know, an enemy are summarised in a gibbet trusted per somebody that you can say the worse to that will throw it away right and it means nothing to them, but you have to actually say the words out loud to eight.
Person looking at them in the eye. Why do you think that change
Why is it not? Why is it not enough to confess to
fast to the people that you ve hurt. Wiser
why do you think? I think it's
to confess out loud to someone I mean the catholic Church has a hands down in that area.
Nokia and it works. You know em
I once was gonna. Have a conference and we're gonna have a confessional booth so that
we could go in there and confess this country,
It is good for the salt. We ve heard that before and I think it's a wonderful tool
it's not the end, all be all, but it's a one.
Four tool to get to the end where we want to be with. We want to be
clean before Jesus and before others? You choose a person well,
You pray ass, the Lord to show you how it might be or go to a councillor go to.
A trusted friend got a pastor and say who would you trust?
This is what I want to do
Would you suggest or just watch watch people littered who to other people, trust.
And you eventually discern who that person might be and its
Ask them, can I view,
it was a confessional confessor and they may
a little surprised, but no
Late autumn, without asking them and get preparing them.
I want you
You talk about bitterness in the book and I think this
I know to come back to bitterness
I think it's, your fourth husband is not telling yourself the truth. Yes, yes,
feel comfortable telling a story you ok. So when
This was in two thousand.
I married him. Two thousand men
and it lasted two of two thousand and eleven and he
he was not one time we met him. He was not nice to me. He was the one that actually introduce meteor radio show
and used to like me.
It was not nice to me-
and he was
just about every way he never hit me, but
I don't think people understand. Emotional abuse is illegal in
the scars or justice, the exact Steve. Nobody can see em right again. Do you feel crazy? You know just where you get beat
women or whoever is on the receiving end is convinced, while I cause than and emotional abuses, even more
just imagining that well,
Kip giving my pieces of myself away just to make him happy
Well, that's just means I kept trying to please him. I kept doing everything I could to please and make him happy
and it just didn't work heat.
In love with me and he said that up front and your kids know
Kids. All my kids were furious that I married him.
But what it that due to you? Well, it hurt me
and I should have just walked away when I realized that none of them like them,
That point was too caught up. I was
I needed that security I needed. Those arms around me needs somebody
walk through life with me. This is before you realize I've abandoned yes exactly. I did not know that
that was a guest ears years of counselling. Nobody ever said that to me, which would think somebody was set, especially,
If you have history with your dad exactly, but nobody ever said that to me only said, never heard it. So this man was manipulative. He was the narcissist he's a sociopath and
I just feel right into his trap and
He knew he'd normal family for a long time, so he knew all the buttons to push, and I just I fell into it and
I realize I made a terrible mistake again, but how could I admit that
how could I possibly admit that specially?
to your children? Yes, exactly you were right,
to me and he
wait, wait, wait, wait so
did that say.
that you would think I
can't tell my children, because why,
they'll say I'm the mother, you know them.
This post to have it altogether
and I really didn't have it altogether too
I'm going to admit to them and
Fourth, husband had a terrible accident and I was on the
I was on my computer and my assistant was
the phone I can hear say something and I hope my ears,
picked up and she said: let me get her on the phone, so
assistant came in and said, there's somebody on the phone for you and I picked up the phone
They asked me if my husband, what my medications my husband, was on, and I
wait a minute who are you and she said, there's been a terrible accident and your husband. I need to know your husband's medications. I said I'll go,
Then she said no bring them and it was an hour and a half drive,
so I drove I had no idea what to expect, but when I hold in high level
Officer was standing at the emergency door, any civil
pick up the trauma centre and a war.
In a team of doktor surrounded me
and they said
Lisbon is on life support and
it was. I was really strange feeling a list of all these.
Traumas to his body, and I must-
I've I think we're shock and I looked up at him. Is it
these life threatening anyone of almost life threatening
so I want to see him and they said: may
shouldn't I said. No, I want to see him so
doubt to his room and I saw him and he didn't look recognisable. He was a mess.
But when I had the strongest sense of God's presence,
I knew that I was in his hands. The he was gonna take care of me.
And he did it was months
recovery, months of recovery in and really abuse. He was ugly to me even then so
didn't you have an argument right before. Yes, he was
leaving to have his car serviced enrichment and
He had not worked for three years and I need
hymns begins to make money for the family, I couldn't
of what I was making, but he wouldn't,
you just made no effort whatsoever, and so I said to him again I said Gregg you ve got to get a job and he
First at me with a crude word and walked out the door, and I could now and
what does that mean to you? What was that feeling to you
well, it was again unbundled again. I've got some,
How figure this out of pit in your stuff? Oh, yes, oh yes, but
had to figure it out
and my sister was coming with
minutes. So I had to put the mask on and pretend everything was okay and went to work
You haven't confided with any now know no one, and
My children figured it out, but I hadn't told any
How did they figure now or they just didn't like him and they he tried to
let them away. He was a control freak and he shut them away. Didn't want them around. He made sure that I was
from them and my children,
mean so much to me. I mean you know when I am just a door, my children, but he made isolated me and,
I knew I had to get out of the box, but how.
And so when the key
came in a hurry,
an accident, I thought knew what God, how much more can I take
but I went, I drove down to Richmond and saw him and
Jen overwhelming sense that God was with me and he was gonna showing what to do, and he did he did I quickly
and that he had put me in debt to the top of a hundred thousand dollars.
That was news to me. I was just floored, so
he had been running up credit card billions or whatever
So I had to sort that out to the seller home, which he was unhappy.
About, but I said I have no choice. I have to sell the house
How how was he d lose? Lawson arm lost an arm had to go through dialysis ray and me what worthy? What was the extent of the injury while he lost an arm? He had to go through dialysis, he was and then later
And arm Helen, probably couple weeks
and then he had a brain bleed
He was even a bad shape in bad shape, but he would.
Got him into rehab and he in all we got him patched up and got him home for Christmas, and I was really pleased and we went to church together, Minos and I thought well. Maybe this will be a turning point. Maybe this will get his attention. It didn't,
I had to sell the house I had
I had to move on pay off their debts and and move on, and
He became very angry and that's when he's filed for her divorce
what was it?
turning point from there,
How did you not turn takes me back a chapter new book.
How does this not turn into bitterness? Glenn, I think-
Baroness as part of the human experience, and I think we we do become bitter, but we
it stay there, but the Bible says: don't let a of bitterness, Dignan deepened
spring up into file of the people.
I knew I would experience bitterness
I couldn't live there. I couldn't set up camp, I had move on and you do that with the scriptures. You know that
We firmly that the scripture is
Truth of God
We use that in our minds to renew our minds.
So I agree with you now tell me
because I think there is a parallel that runs in everybody's life effect.
Read this scourge.
I love the way. You tell a story, you say.
Can you think of a person who nearly always finds it? You find particularly hard to forgive you
if you're anything like me, the answer that question is yes, yes me, how can we forgive ourselves, especially when we're of repeat offenders
The hand was a second. There was.
Shoot. Where was it? It was where you were talking about this one, just one, I'm sorry, one afternoon the phone rang. I picked
and I heard her instantly- I felt knots in my stomach. I pretended to be glad to hear from her while
I familiar internal script scrolling through my mind. She is so patronising and controlling I've tried, but I can hardly bear to interact with her if she tells me one more time: dot, dot, dot,
Here's the important line-
When come to your mind when you read than me out
and as I am reading that I think everybody does and then in
or case extreme here's a guy
abusive and you too,
do everything you can.
He then are with him and you nurse him back to health.
And he's even worse,
and you know he put you in debt- he
wasted all this time? Another not too, where you're like four
I even question whether a believer in I thought, how can I keep making these men these mistake,
eggs. I really doubt it
If I had known the Lord at all, but
reassured me that I did known in that area.
Safe in his arms and.
The reason why you kept making these mistakes. Tell me about.
The discovery after
this relating Jim.
A? How did you not hold onto bitterness with him.
Because that's what we're doing in
in all of our lives right now we were constantly being told something.
We are constantly fighting were constantly having to stand up and fight for simple things that we shouldn't have to fight for and
we tried, we ve all tried to be good and I'm target people on both sides will feel this way politically.
And now we're so embittered and we're like it's not my fault. It's your fault
How do you let that go? So it's anger, we don't
go on our own.
You know, that's where the Holy Spirit has to come in and
You have to ask the Holy Spirit to intervene and beat our helper.
God Jesus says he is our help or he's our comforter he's our advocate.
We ask him to come in and help us it, but if it's a day-
Glad they think forgiveness, letting go of bitterness is not an overnight thing. It it may take a lifetime
but we have to be working through that process and it is a lifetime process.
But I know from me and it was, I wrote about it in the book.
I had always when people talked about divorce. Always cringe knew me and.
One day I was in Sunday School Class and the Sunday
teacher was comparing the Corinth of Paul's day.
Our culture today and he asked,
question winded? We begin this downward slide in someone in the back yard that when we except a divorce, will normally have a la now, but I didn't
and I heard him, but it didn't affect me so after,
takes a Ruth. Please come he's asked so sorry, I meant to say easy divorce and I realized-
I was standing in ruins ate one. There is now
for no condemnation to those who in Christ. Jesus cannot.
You will have happened. Can I tell you where it happened now?
I just can tell you that it did happen, and that is a miracle.
I remember I don't remember the specific time like you.
But I remember conversion
I remember being baptized clearly
and I remember making that commitment. That's livestock conversion,
and then one day,
four years later. I realized.
I only want to do good. I only want to do these things. I don't I'm not that
we anymore- and I can't tell you when it happened. No, but it does
we open ourselves up for it.
God will see that it happens.
And that's how you got rid of your bitterness and using the scriptures renewing my man that.
I didn't want to be a bitter person, I've seen their people and then they not pretty did Mombi
a better person I wanted
spirit, fill my life and give me peace and contentment
and courage and enhanced
The EU offers little talk about
when that person said to you or abandon, why? Why? How did that connect? How did you
see that how did that not connect with you before I have no idea. I have no idea because this it
absolutely right there in front of your face. That's what
You're staying with these bad guys, because I want
security yeah, you know they leave and then who am? I an
My father never knew this. He was
conversant by the time I discovered this
of course he's hearing our conversation now, so he knows
and you it would hurt his heart.
But he said in his memoirs. You know. I am sure that my absences had a profound
fact on my children and they did
I'm telling my story, not my siblings story, because they react differently than I did. We all do
but I just I was
grateful that a family discovered my core issue. That was my court
and we all have one
New Samson is an illustration of the book. His passion was his core issue. He couldn't,
no a woman, you know he was just a mess, but God used him.
Use them to judge Israel for twenty years. In a why,
lucid and he proves eleven the chapter faith. Why?
only by the grace of God, but I mean
He had he did nothing to deserve it. Not a thing I mean Samson was really forever.
Key character? He did.
and he went out of his way to do things wrong, but guy,
used him anyway
not deserve it,.
And that gives me hope here
they simply kind of want to see those people who have done wrong intentional, you know get there come up ends
but gods in charge of that year
gods and not me? I know I've.
I have in my worst times,
had these for a while, but in my
The times when.
I feel like I've done everything and I'm just fighting the world.
I'm like when,
When are you coming we're swing in avow here? When are you show up for the fight and
I'll, never forget. I have heard the several times in my prayers, but he
has been very clear and almost
stern with me?
the way we have a very different.
But almost stern
These are not enemies,
of your he's, her enemies of mine.
And I will deal with them. In my time
this term is not art. Is time is not our time and
his way of dealing with them may not be the way I would deal with it. You know we
We want revenge and were so,
We're self hating egomaniac in the choir
night, we hate ourselves selves in our worst days and but
The rest of it is either.
Hiding that wound or we
actually believe. I know best it
the craziest combination
swear the word of God has to play and we have to renew our mind but the scriptures, because we will be safe, self hating, but we know that God loves
totally and completely unconditionally and that
What my father showed me, you know I told us
or at the funeral, where my father accepted me home after this.
Marriage and just-
welcomed me home no questions asked
That showed me what God was like
because that's what God does for us.
And I told that story- the funeral- I loved you done- I didn't you don't know- I dont know. If
I dont know cause. I met him towards the end, so I didn't
I didn't see the fire
you know, there's a fire. He may
I've gotten along with me at all, you would have enjoyed you and he had a special places. Hartfield Glenn. I truly believe that just
Of him just loved him and
I've just never seen anyone
though it piece you know he was. He was not troubled now,
was he said to me. One point he said cuz was like.
Please try and he's not talk. I mean it's
he's not loud enough sometimes, and I'm tryin, and I don't know what I'm doing and I'm bluffing half the time and
He looked at me and he said I'm not afraid to die, and it was
I mean I can see his eyes when I say that we were so called.
And he held MA am
and he said
food. So much up, I have I have tried.
My whole time: I've tried
but I know I failed all in areas. I didn't even realise that I'll find out. He said I tried. I try
and I know all my shortcomings will be covered- absolutely any trusted that
with every fibre is being.
The blood of Jesus washes all away. Tell me what happened.
When you told your children,
about the fourth marriage. How did they re at the end of it?
we're pleased. There were no question about it and there was nothing that you had in your head
not one. Second of that-
it tells us during the book were I ask forgiveness, I had to go to each other.
And say: will you forgive me
and they say- oh mom, you don't need ask us for your forgiveness.
And I said yes, I do I suddenly
hear from you and so on.
Each one of monopolies and ask for forgiveness, and they said of course, mother
And that's freeing for mother right.
And wise and importantly, who heard that.
It just was I just needed to hear from them, because I had done so much damage. I'd, I'd really made
such things and they love
He threw it to think.
You didn't, have their voices.
Recorded by your eyes and ears
and you would have known it anyway that they forgave you.
What do you think it all that would have been handled handing a tool
to the adversary to play,
the whispers of night. Probably I think
when we asked for forgiveness, we take
the tools away from him
and God gives us a whole new set of tools.
And I am very grateful to my children.
There is nothing like living in the bright light. You know because
when times come their hard and they are hard in every family in every
When you know I'm clean snow worry and it's nothing
had from twere your dad. Wasn't he murmured? So are you there? I think so. I am,
tent. I'm I'm mom, I'm at peace, truly petroleum and am grateful. I have
family members who have been true.
And have abandonment issue and.
And they are getting better, they really are but its eye.
It's a journey. It's a journey and you you see
cure you think you're good
even when you open everything up, you think you're good
What's nice? Is you get to appoint
You like our way, there's something else here and it just
It's better and better,
and the enemy will try to bring our emotions back and say we ve.
EL. The revenge will feel the bitterness will feel all the anger.
That doesn't mean we haven't forgiven. It means that we need to. Let it go.
And because emotions don't tell the truth,
God's word tells us the truth and
his word will make us better and better
as both good emotions and better
emotions don't tell it right before you're. Fourth, marriage didn't tell the truth.
There are probably standing on tiptoe yelling and I also thank you think
The planned bless agent.
Book is for giving my father for giving myself by my friend
just a reminder: I'd love you to rate and subscribe to the podcast and that's his onto a friend, so it can be discovered by other people.
Transcript generated on 2020-02-22.