The blaze radio network on demand. This is the best of courage. Three back well, we have to start to show with a California updates brought you by our Sponsor Cooper, the is yes, California, crappy policies now yielding some literal crappy results in one week. This San Francisco logged over sixteen thousand complaints of human poop on the streets. Let me say that again sixty in two thousand people called the city and when

there it somebody's crap in in the street in front of my house in seven days, the mounds of vagrant generated poop, truly force the closure of a convention. And being held downtown. You know What did they do then? There's somebody just pull a convention because of a bathroom issue in some other state I mean that is a bigger bathroom issue. If you live in San Francisco, I want you to know help is on the way. Mayors and breed was absolute. I'm quoting absolutely shocked after walking round then seeing not only all of the poop but all of the use, drugged needles Now, how many needles are they giving out in San Francisco every month in is like five hundred thousand is hundreds of thousands of hundreds of thousands of needles are giving out well and some of those come back

recycled, two not having, certainly not all of them other supposed to return the, but you can't expect when you you know heroin users there not always did depend well, the mayor is decided she's mad as hell and she's not going to take it anymore, so she's bringing bringing bring out the big guns. It's a new, really breed of a new here. Oh, I think we're gonna be seeing this. This action hero on the big big big screen soon. It the San Francisco version of Delta Force or the Navy seals, and they may already be patrolling your streets in San Francisco dressed in. Has Matt suits and patrolling neighborhoods with these the art patrol vehicle equipped with a steam cleaner and disinfectant they are the In and women of the San Francisco poop patrol, yet this is our country.

Now keep in mind this story is not a parity. This is true San Francisco has now allocated over why hundred million dollars to combat the pool an needle problem. Now you might be thinking you yourself. Holy crap, ah a hundred million dollars that sells like a colossal waste of a ton of money. Really you can get it done. Cheaper than a hundred million dollars Well birds, California, in ends San Francisco. In the Bay area hundred million. You know San Francisco residents, your member one a million dollars. Vienna was a lot of money. It doesn't as far as you know, is it used to in that Hell Hole of San Francisco A hundred million dollars in San Francisco, I think, can get you maybe a hundred and seventy five square feet. You know,

A beautiful apartment- probably I, think somewhere between five and eight gallons of gas or the poop patrol? which would you spend it on the San Francisco public works budget includes seventy two point: five million dollars for street cleaning give this one: twelve million dollars for house? Keepers to get this, in homeless, encampments. Well, first of all, I gotta have one problem made there not really housekeepers if there is no home their homeless, so Let me see if I have the straight: if I'm working in San Francisco arms working at a delicate I'm paying taxes, the San Francisco, and I, to go home and clean? My house, I paying taxes so the people

Who come in poop in front of my store, I paying taxes, so they have a housekeeper. Oh my gosh. Also two point: two million dollars for washing down the camps and removing any bio hazard, two point: three into steam. The poop infested streets, three one million for portable toilets, seven rid thousand dollars for a ten ten member needle clean up squad and, of course, nearly nine hundred thousand for the poop patrol each member of the poop patrol it's over, you ready takes home for one hundred and eighty four thousand dollars and salary and benefits. Now I don't know I dont know what it would cost to get me to pick up human poop, it would be. It would probably be a little more expensive than that.

But are you telling me that you and find? Oh, I don't know. Group too, agers com. Students, anybody how about how about how about all of those progressive that just love people so much, and they just want to do good and you're, telling me that you can get them. For I don't know a bag of weed and you know, and and and hemp dress, you can't get them, who clean the streets of the human feces really a hundred and eighty four thousand dollars is what you're paying people to pick up poop. If I'm at night, give some advice to the new unit patrolling California streets. If you would like to clean up all the crap in your cities, I would suggest that you start removing the human poop that you, strangely in California, call politicians the ones that are throwing all this money at a failed city.

Failed policy, one right after another. You can't really get rid of the the scent of poop by simply sprang something on it to cover up the scent. After a shovel it out. May I suggest that you our shovelling out the capital building in Sacramento and then work your way down to every city government from their wait a minute. I got an aim: poop patrol for progressive politicians and policy or the p p, p, p, p, As you know, an end, I think there would be some funding from you know: rich people all over the country that I'm mill, I would make a donation right now to pee pee pee pee pee in if we could get one in Washington whose, with me, keep an eye out and look for them coming soon to movie theater near you patrolling the streets of DC in San Francisco, the human

patrol I saw a hundred and eighty four this little wide, eyed, so yeah a hundred and eighty four thousand dollars a year for Yahoo patrol of course now there are services, is a service economy. We now have yes, which will to your home and pick up the dog poop. From your lawn for like. You know you come over once a week and it's like maybe fifty dollars a month mass Now I appreciate capitalism, but there is also another service that comes over and picks up the poop in your line from your dogs. It's called. Twelve year old children. Well, I'd like to lend my heads: that's why I had you for nothing, but first of

that seems like a really high rate. Knolls go pick up poor a hundred and eighty four thousand dollars a year. Gig, that's a gig. I would think that there may ask you: this house but would it take for me to get you into the poop industry right now I mean how much does it take to get you in, I we want for easily gets me that get right easily eyes. Mean a hundred k gets into that gig, probably too if this isn't the perfect example of of job creation in a programme. Ass. If world I dont know what is hey, we can more housekeepers because Every homeless camps come now have housekeepers. They cannot be expected to you no clean up there. Sleeping bag we gotta, Be that as it may, we can leave a little mint on their pillow to we're creating jobs. We

Ok, solar, observe, poop and all over the street. This is job creator. This important point on live in California, spaces Krugman theory right, you know if an if an alien was threatening the earth, we would increase our economy because we would all go together and go crazy to build up. Our society it's the broken windows theory right. Well, where would we must not? Now we just now make that windows and we get people repeats the windows, that's good for the economy. The broken windows thing that tat it's a conservative idea, verbal open windows. Yeah. You see people pick up windows in the rocks they break a window on an empty stream. Ok, we're not broken windows in more we're talking about people cramping on the street. Well, if we just pick up the crap, maybe they won't crap on the street and we ve turned into animals

we are entering a new time and everything has everything's being redesigned right now and people are really talking about the issues. People are talking about big, fundamental things that are changing? For instance, Erika was based on life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness nobody's talking up pursuit of happiness right now. Pursuit of happiness is defined, by our founders as ownership that you could own. You could view, could forge your own way in in life and ownership is a big part of cap, realism and a big part of America. How of our ownership, is quickly going away when you buy a book on Kindle. Do you own the book? when you buy a movie from Itunes, do you own the movie. The answer is no. The end of ownership Erin. I want to get this right. Peres.

They say it for me. Just ask him to tell me Algeria's name: it's person, ascii person, asking how, there was a lot easier than its eye than what we can't pronounced. Easy word was gonna, be together, Sir, no more than one syllable, adding there's a lot a continent there, and I don't. I don't Erin, I'm done well area good, I'm I'm! I'm I'm really fascinated by how we make the turns in our society. For the future and Ownership is a big part of this, because in the future. I dont know how many people will even own cars I mean. Is it just all changing, but do we? really own things when we buy them online, I think there is a real concern here that consumers go into transactions when their buying things digital goods, especially digital books, movies, music,

the union has transactions, assuming they work the same way as they do in the world of tangible goods where, if you buy a book the way to a friend you can lend it to someone. You can leave it in your will. In the future. Leave your book collection to your loved ones and. The rules that control these digital transactions. When you Somebody on your kingdom from Itunes are very different from the rules that we expect in the physical world and consumers. Don't really understand that distinction and I think that causes of your disconnect between what we all expect to happen and what happens in fact, so to give you a quick example, I'm just A couple of weeks ago, a consumer, a customer, the Apple agents movie store, found the three movies purchased

We had been deleted from his account. There were no longer accessible and I think that shocked alot of people, those of us who ve been following these issues closely for years. Would remember ten years ago, when Amazon remotely deleted the books off of people's tingles young, including ironically George Orwell's one thousand nine hundred and eighty four, These issues have been happening for a long time, but I think people are now starting to sit up and take notice. So I remember exists, cuz its here for me to read everything on Kindle, and I have a large collection in my library of of of hard cover books, I read so much. I read it all on Kindle, but I have recently really been concerned. Not just me as I dont actually on it, and I can't have it in my librarian. I can pass it on, but also because watch things like it happening in China. If you reach

if you're in China, women first, they wouldn't sell the book, but if they did sell the book the government can just diem That book is you'll need to burn books. You the over night just take all of that every copy of that book, out of circulation of its only digital. That's really disturbing to me. I think it's a real can turn its concern from the perspective of censorship, as you have just described it It's also real concern from the perspective of praise. Nation and archiving our cultural history. If these books are sir, are stored on this your eyes, servers and only the hands of the two or three companies they dominate these markets. Then there is a real risk that

We are going to be able to ensure camp the widespread distribution of copies. It will allow us to set it up to archive and preserve. Did these works and end it with the movie. It wasn't because they founded objectionable. Everything else is because that particular provider they lost the rights to that movie right. And so they they had to pull it, for people's libraries because their rights had expired,. There are a number of ways that this can happen. This most recent example. I don't know that the facts are totally clear on exactly what went on so one way this can happen is that, as you described the between the digital retailer, Apple or Amazon and copyright holder expires? We no longer have the right to show that product. It can also happen where

a record label or movie studio, decide that they want to put out the new, updated re, mastered, directors, cut edition of a movie and when they do that they pulled the old version to harm you. Oh my gosh really almost force you to I mean is that they are he's done this. Where you know it's the masterpiece collection and it's you, no additional asian and you know fully restored, but you still add the old copy Now, that's right, you can't you, I mean even for me, think of this, even just for comparison. Can't if they change something in a movie, imagine went remember when George Lucas changed STAR wars. Well, I want to see what it was like when it about you, wouldn't be able to do that. Would you, unless the movie company decided to allow you to do that by threatening,

The problem is most recent case in part, was that the consumer didn't have a local copy stored on their computer or their device, and- and this is a practical tip for people- should always try to store as much as you can do. The locally many services are often trying to. Encourage consumers to rely on their own on the on the companies answered of cloud storage solution, and sometimes for with the Apple TV, for example, The apple tv doesn't allow you to permanently download. Copy of a movie you have to access it through their clotel servers. Exactly for. I think that makes a big difference in Europe patients. If I downloaded something on Kindle, could I download it to another, a cloud and still be able to read it on Kindle, though

making the kindle allows you to store those files. Locally on your own device, but because the nor is tethered through software right, where connections to Amazon Amazon has the ability, as as they show tenure. The girl to block moves, those files stronger laughable? You took my god, Roquat apple Apple has the same sort of control. We saw this. Seventh is: don't you in a different way, sure some year listeners may remember, when they woke up and found a Youtube album on there, I shall ask for they put it the other way they forced everybody to have it exactly as bizarre. If you read about this a little bit, and its is an interesting a change in the way we think about commerce. There is in the past, you had a transaction where you'd go into a store and you'd by something with these digital purchases that we're making from Itunes or Amazon

we're actually like entering a ongoing relationship with them. You it's, a it's sort of an open, ended thing where their constantly no what you do with that product? And you have that going relationship where they can cancel that at any time. Without your knowledge, we talk about a little bit about the change their cause. It is that's a real change. I dont think people of considered Erin livery answer that we're gonna take a quick breakin. They will come back and get you to answer that question and the change in in capitalism change. What does it mean? to enter a world where there is really no ownership of anything. The best of the Glen Back Programme into Erin parent ASCII. He is a a perfect

of LAW and also you can be defined him at the end of ownership. Dotcom errand, your right to say that the switch to the digital platform offers convenience but also makes consumer access more contingent. Unlike a purchase, an abrupt bookstore, a digital media transaction is continuous, linking buyer and seller and giving the seller appeal transaction power impossible in physical markets why's that important. So I think this is important. On a number of reasons leads to these scenarios can about earlier, where the shell of the good has the ability not only sensitive leak claim or call the good, but they also have some ability to control. How and when and under what circumstances you make use of that product after the shale. That's just not something that you could do the tangible world, but you're your local bookstore, put aside the publisher, local bookstore can't tell

What country you are allowed to read a book in? They can't tell you how many times you get to read it. They can't tell you who you to learn that book to may certainly can't keep records of all of those interactions. And the digital world allows for that that form of control? And importantly, it's not limited just to digital media? Are we have all these smart device in our homes, on our bodies, We ve got our voice assistants and our fitness tracker and you even home appliances and cars. They all have software. They all have network connections and all these sort of problems I've been describing are going to play out in that space is well where device

girls are not only going to be able to track your behavior, but are also going to be able to limit the ways in which you can use the products that you think you have purchased. All of you to. Let me go. Let me interrupt hearing and just ask you this. I see when I got I tunes, I see my movie on watch, it says, rent or own. I'm not only it on Renting it in a different way in this false advertising. So I think there is a really good case to be made. That companies like Amazon, an apple that use language, like oh and by words that have real meaning for People in their everyday lives are misleading the nature of those transactions. So am I Collateral Chris was now go, and I wrote a paper a few years ago, a couple years ago.

Come. What we, by when we buy now that data survey of about fifteen hundred consumers to figure out what people think this language than it turns out that a significant percentage of consumers incorrectly believe that they do have true ownership rights. They get to keep these goods landed them that they can give them away, and we think that there is an option trading here to correct this misinformed. Nation in the marketplace, but think about the company that we're talking about Apple and Amazon are to the biggest corporations. The world has ever seen and getting them to convincing them too. Now, in a clear and their ways. Is a real challenge, last action, lawsuit,

there is a possibility for class action litigation Are bunch of legal and practical hurdles to making What happened? I think it's something worth pursuing. I think a federal trade Commission has a role to play here. This is I squarely with him there. Within their area of expertise, and graduation to police market and ensure that consumer have accurate information? yeah, I just wanna, go him, but the way the market works depend on consumers be fought? People can't make rational choices, people care decide where to spend their money is being misled about the products that they get. It is crucial for the functioning of the market to who have that a nation be correct. Have you done any look into what

a society without real ownership, and me we're down till you know renting clothes and everything else. And that's only getting stronger as as as we move forward, have you looked into That means for a capitalist society and for american particular that his who been about ownership my biggest concern here is the way these changes. Our conception of ourselves in the way we think about ourselves as individuals Ok, so stop there for. Second, if I can hold you for just a couple more minutes after the break I'd like finish that thought, because I think this is important for the world is being redesigned swinging redesigned without any of us, really understanding it and we should go in open I'd a country that is, is founded on base

individual rights and civil rights property rights? You are right to own things. Right to ownership in opposition, is nine tenths of a law will not in the future. In fact, in many cases, not even now, you Bob things on line, sometimes you're not actually buying them Europe, renting them you're entering an ongoing relationship? What does this mean for the eighty. How is it going to changes? Will it even choice, it's the way we view things and and some fundamental cons, depths of what it means here in Amerika of individual rights. We have errand Paris now ski on with this professor of law and the author of the book, what we buy when we buy now, and you can find more information at the end of ownership, Dotcom Erin So tell me: what have you been looking at this time:

in the short term, what were likely to see are more changes in the way our commercial interactions occur. In a way that commercial transactions restructured wars with industry. Few people become more and more accustomed to paying for temporary access to resources. Rather than only them in some ways. I think that makes some degree of censure some people for whom a car that necessary they matter at, be able to take a laughter you some sort of car share application, and I think that makes a lot of sense. What I'm worried about is the long term, implications for a shift away, from ownership and towards temporary access, a shift away from independent control, of resources to one where we have to rely on permission, or

so the good will of the companies that control access sell goods May I give you an example and see if I'm on the right track. I buy a car and I love this car and I want to keep it and it's a classic car. But I dont own the software that runs the car and if any time the software company says not I kind of like we're not gonna, say or tat, or we want to discontinue or whatever I, but I dont have a heap, I can't do anything. Do anything with it, because I don't own the software that runs it? The is a great example we see this issue, come up in the motor vehicle contacts at the window. It come up most most recently in most often is actually not with cars, but with tractors. John dear The long running american Farm Equipment company makes it

this argument that they own the software in the tractors that state they sell to american farmers, and that means farmers can only get their tractors repaired by authorize John Dear dealers. They can't do it themselves, it can't go their local mom and pop farm repair shops. I am, I think, those kinds of changes are really troubling because they go to the sense of independence in the sense of autonomy that were all independent actors in the world, who can make our own decisions? Who can decide what's best for us, do we want Keep the structure as it is. We want to modify it. Do you want to repair it? Those decisions, the taken away from individual consumers and you're doing forced to play by a set of rules dictated by the companies who called on quote How will you these products and doesn't that also doesnt, also stop innovation? I mean sometimes the guy who

make something and then tinker's with it comes up with a at our system. But if I'm, if I'm locked out of tinkering on my own property. It it's It is almost creates this this feeling of oh well, that's just the way. It is that's the way it always is gonna. Be a just runs that way and it stop. Innovation? Doesn't it? I think it has the real risk of doing that, discourages PETE, from being created that discourages people from from, as you say, tinkering with the things they are we have a lot in credit? innovations that have been made over the centuries in this country, but didn't come from giant. We are indeed departments. They came from individuals messing around with. Today on and air garage, and there is a risk that were for closing those kinds of opportunities, but even even more broadly to that, if we're discouraged from thinking

our cells as independent actors in the world- and I worry that creates a suitable complacency in in our population in our country and in not to do now is to widen the level here, but for democracy to function, people have to steal and they have to be in charge of their lives. They asked to be invoked. It make an informed decisions. Do not worry that that did you notice this lack of control over the everyday decisions might play too much broader set of problems when it comes to people feel they make active participant in society in tomorrow I couldn't agree with you. I couldn't agree with you more. I I building. This is the way society is thinking anymore. Everything is about the collective and very little is about the individual. So let me ask you one more question: I let you go, I know you ve spent twice you out.

I'm here that you re, probably planned on Billy S, one more question. I am really concerned about copyrights, Patten's trademarks? We seem to be entering a world where people don't take some these intellectual property seriously on the on the other side of this they just feel that well, I can download it. I can just take it. Its. We shouldn't have intellectual property rights that that is free. Because again that was the second, piece of the american experiment was you have a right to that intellectual property for a period of time, so you can make money on it, which encourages other people to come up with their own ideas. Do you see this? Why use it is fading, and is this trouble on the horizon as well? So I write and teach about intellectual

pretty in attempting to date that I take very seriously in one of the things that I always try to communicate to my students is their intellectual property system actions best when there is a balance between the interests of the public interest of creators and the history of intellectual property. Copulate in particular, is a history of a struggle to find didn't ain't that appropriate bout and I think what we ve got is true and have been going through a kind of since the widespread adoption of the internet period. Where were struggling with how to answer some of those questions, There are certainly areas in which the copyright holders have legitimate concerns about air works being exploited. Without compensation and, on the other hand, we live in a culture

in which copyrighted works. Ah said it increasingly distributed with within these environments, like Apple and Amazon, for example, where consumers can do the same with that they think they're entitled or should be ranked, do joining that part of the solution here is providing consumers a strong incentive to pay for these works. That's one of the things the truth is, I think, I've gotten right, which is that they offer a really attracted deal to consumers of people. Learn that if you're going to access the World Library is it they have to pay for the privilege and you're, not how that money is distributed and what the workplace point as I think it is one sticking points out. It is an important set of questions and one that I probably can't do justice to

a couple minutes actually are Thank you so much. I appreciated- and I appreciate your thoughtfulness on this, and will keep watching for updates. Thank you so much heir apparent house adversary. You bet he is is found at the website the end of ownership, dot com. I had him For a couple of reasons, one you have to know the book so you buy the videos that you buy, everything you buy says rent or by when you by your really buying you don't own it in a world where opinions thoughts and ideas are under siege. You don't have to books anymore. All you have to do who is get one of the providers or a couple of the providers just to delete them from ever ones, library, and they are gone forever. Think about that

next time. You want to download something. What are the books you want to download and what are the books you want to own, by the way. So you know I don't get any more money. If I sell a book or I sell a digital download, it's not about that at all, so it is about preserving information. Back, I'm thrilled have Belkin Gladwell on with us. I am a big fan of his is. Is writing also revisionist history is fantastic. I think I start listening to the last season, On a Friday I consumed every was like you know, a the kids are throwing up their sick they're on fire and I'm like shut up. I'm listening to Malcolm unbelievable is latest Epp is latest a season on revision is history. You don't really know until kind of It's the end of it that a wow. This is all about memory, and I've learned that everything I

what about memory is probably wrong. I'd like to tell you what it was, but I dont trust my memory anymore. So Malcolm Gladwell is here hello, Malcolm Aerial, Haglund. Very well. I thank you for your podcast there's. Just so great was very kind of you. I wanted it. I've been thinking about you a lot lately because of the cabinet hearings and everything else, and I don't want to get into the Cavanaugh hearings when I do we want to talk about, is, our memory and how it can be changed manipulated how its natural for these things to happen, I mean you explained the Brian Williams story in in such a deal current way because you didn't condemn him. I knew exonerate him. You just said Let's look at the facts on memory can you take us through it? Yeah, the member is something that in the last generation,

psychologists have spent an enormous and they're and an enormous time the man who work in it. Trying to understand how it works the more we learn about memory, the ball. We realise how fallible is and we more and when we systematically go back at we test our memories. We find do very well, I'm so there's a famous set of studies that accomplishable studies where a famous event happened: nine, eleven, the challenge explosion, and you go to a large group of people. The incident happened, and you say tat. Everything you were doing thinking on them when you are that is where were you who'd? You talk to first? How did you feel you know what happened the day and then I go back to the same group of people a year later, five years later, ten years later had asked the same question and they can

air, their answers, a lumber. What you discover is that not everyone, but many of the people substantially alter their memories of the event without realising it. Otherwise they are the first time they ll say. When I heard when I saw the towers fall, I was standing in the streets have been had did my best friend Jim tears streaming down my face, and then ten years later, they'll say when I first heard the towers fall, I was, but you're, not television in my dorm room and I ran out, you know I mean I ran and called my friend Jim, who within Boston and if there is convinced ten years later, that's. What they're memory was the same as they were the first time they they they below their memories. Without the day of the of of nine eleven and sell that kind of stuff my point in Dubai and when you William thing was when you

understand how fallible memory is. You are a lot more forgiving of what he did. He did something which it turns up. A lot of us do all the time, because we make what time slice air we we confuse the timeline in our minds and we we think we're one place when something happens and were another place where some we ve heard. A story told so many times that we slowly corporate itself into the store without realising that we're doing it and made. My point was that these are not sins of character. These are these are just facts of human memory and we said so often wanna make someone's faulty bury into a task that their of their kind. United, got to mistake, sir you're. There are people who deliberately lie absolutely, but a lot of what we think might be to elaborate line is just a manifestation of the

the frailty of human memory when you were talking about the nine eleven study there were. People who came back ten years later. They wrote out You know within a few days, if I'm not mistaken, was it a few days or was it a year? after nine eleven original writing, while the original time they they went to the next day. Ok, so the next day they ask them to write out exactly where they were. What happened ten years later, some of them said I don't know why. I even wrote that this is a lie. This is not what happened, and I dont know why I was lying. Then, and we're convinced somehow or another they made something up, but was deaf, then what they knew to be true now the people that is one of the most important things the memory researchers will oh, you did. You cannot confuse confidence with accuracy. In other words,

fact that I am absolutely certain that what happened, what happened happened not a reliable guide to its accuracy, so you can see I am convinced that my friend bruise on the first day that should that does not mean it's more like. Could it be true, then? If I said you know I if I expressed it with more doubt, so I think what is a lot about this? The last of all this is, is it we just need to approach Our memories and not just a man, is our entire lives. Would allow more humility. You can't. We would not are our brains are not Superman I do not remember video quarter up they're, taking out everything perfectly you know and we need to. When I say I remembered something. One way I need to be a

check. I need to talk to others and need to be open to the possibility. I might be wrong. I need to that's why we have legal status, an investigator than right to compensate for the fact that our memories are not what we would like them to be Everyone out settlers take it outside of this political nightmare. Theirs me too movement, I think, has been very good on hold. Very good. I am concerned about the the win, need to be believed. I don't it's a man or a woman. No, they need to be heard and taken seriously, but we can't just. Believe what someone says for a myriad of reasons, and I fear it. Dangerous this road that were going down because We need more than just your word and your memory, because

You might believe, that's true, but it might not be authorities funny. This is exactly the point. They run in out the other general who has been responsible, Mozart, anyone else for breaking it me to stay. I went to see him gather Public when he was he was, maybe the actress who is best source. I forgot the name of course, good time every three following the source of many of the meat. You allegation- and they were talking about this very point- and he very explicitly said my job as a journalist is not to believe the women. It is to listen to them and then try and cork corroborate through careful reporting those aspects of their story that are irish, corroborated their stories to care for reporting. And if I can't corroborate them that I can't

like story right and my job as a rapporteur is to compensate for the frailty of human memory, and that is that is a beautiful away of experts What the responsibility of media, it is in these cases is ok. Someone has gone clearly believe they're gonna do something very traumatic, that's systematically trying to figure out I did it happen that way and if it didn't happen that way, let us not then judge, person and say there a liar right. That's the crucial part when it like it is, we, we can't lose our humanity over this. We have to say we have to say: if we do, an investigation is not the way that person says. We have two very respectfully say you have you, like. All of us have a memory that is imperfect That would be wonderful if we lived in that were of blood

Malcolm I am I'm so concerned that, and you ve said it now twice and It is it with what made me successful in the first place, and I am so glad that I have described heard how dangerous it is, Sir, the tube e r, a population that is certain about everything and it's good to have a course set of beliefs and principles, but you must be open to hear new information and on other information that doesn't give you. It is a cognitive dissidents is good, it's goodbye that's a sign that something in you is and is quite right. Don't shout I threw it stopped back, come stepped back and go ok, which one of these two don't fit with the principal I believe, do I need to change the prey

simple, or do I needed to throw out that way, The information that I'm that I'm now acting on right, but people don't want to do that here. I don't. Usually I had a last night with a friend of mine who at the moment and who is talking about the tradition in the aisle, among mormons of keeping journals, which I d don't about and she had years. Recent years journals and she was. About what that means for when you have a contemporaneous account of your life, feelings. Your action your interpretations of what you ve done. You can go back and in it is obviously serves a function, far greater than simply checking your memory. But it's a way of keeping herself honest. What I love about that was that it that notion of if he we live in such a kind of difficult and flawed world, then we have to take responsibility for our own stories and that to me

That is what the what what that tradition of keeping a journal is about it says, is a human being. You have a responsibility to south end, to others too, to understand the road that you have taken, my and write it down so that when you twenty is Eddie, you can look back any say I'd. I had forgotten, I did this, then you don't know. I regret it out. Maybe I've learned from it, but that that to me I thought I was lovely. I really did I thought that was it As an example of a kind of a practice, and you you know if you know much more about this than I do, but the idea that that is part of what it means to be a righteous actor in the world is to take your history seriously. Have you heard from brain, William, sincere podcast? Now I feel I have. I

to our great whether already ready to help- and I mean he's, can you can't be he can't publicly say that's true, that's great radio primarily to keep us like a lecture with I can't believe is breaking up again, Malcolm thank you. So much for being the programme really appreciate her thought about Malcolm Gladwell farmer to utter a Gladwell and also, if you have not heard this podcast, is so relevant what we're going through right now. Especially listen to which I would have asked about. The German spies. Oh my gosh. As a great story, listen little one. It's a two part about the german spies. Listen just even start with the brain Williams and you will see wait a minute. Wait, a minute wait a minute! No not believe people on their memory alone

them seriously season three episode. Three and four of the two, the you're talkin about that really is amended, brainwaves things incredible, because if I were a hundred percent just He was just trying to lie to make himself look better and when you look like the way he did it and all details around is: is it a lease make you uneasy about that and he will leave. You know, I always say do something this week. That makes you uncomfortable. Listen to this because it will ever especially if you think that brine Williams absolutely is just a pig, Listen to this. Is it will challenge you and you? If you're, honest with yourself, will go well, wait a minute, I'm not quite sure and if you really on issue, though she I wonder how much of that is with me over time that we have spent together, we have seen a lot of crazy stuff, star relationship for many people started on nine twelve,

nine eleven. Some people heard that news with my voice. At the end of the day,. But if you, if I were nationals you've might have heard the warning about Osama Bin Laden in ninety was one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine or one thousand nine hundred and ninety seven. Where I said this guy's common in New York, on W Abc anybody pay attention. Now there will be blood body and buildings in the streets of Manhattan within ten years. It happened. Came to about two thousand six and said don't buy into in it only this housing stuff. Don't do it don't do it. There's a massive bubble, which then I saw. The sea was actually a banking crisis was on the way everyone denied it. Two thousand eight happened. But if you were listening, you act Lee saved your money. I've come to you with pride.

Ones. But I've tried to come to you with solutions best selling but ever wrote was commons and then I ll never forget. I wore I wrote a lot of that vacation. I wrote the. I wrote that the most important actors. While I was on vacation- and I remember was late at night I called my family into the living room and I said I want to read something to you, because I think this is, I think, is right. But I also don't know if I'm willing to publish it under my name cause it's of people are gonna wanna, hear this and I think it's trouble and I was calling out both parties and I was calling out the games that were played in Washington and the I believe that we were headed for you and I bought it in droves, two million, copies later People knew what was going on. We started there

the tea party in the nine twelve project and played a big part in in that with you. We fall load you on a lot of that and then two thousand ten happened and then two thousand twelve. We saw that the tea party had been just dismantled We had been lied to buy our party and I started to get discouraged. I left fox and decided because people were asking me so now what and I didn't have an answer- I decided to break it down to smaller problems and we we printed. Conform about education and common core end and what the problem was in universities long before anybody else. Uncontrolled in the book control when the caliph eight came something I warned you about, and everybody marked. It is about Islam to prepare. You. But the Nazareth fund- I couldn't see,

for war. I did still didn't have any answers. I don't know, but I know that people are in trouble and I dont know how to do it. But together we can figure it out. Thirty million dollars later in tens, thousands. Tens thousands of Christians moved and saved and rescued from slavery. Sixth in thousand Christians and religious minorities hopefully, will be moved out of this region before Christmas because of you, People continue to ask me: how do we save? Are we save the country? How do we save the constitution, and I didn't have an answer and it bothered me and I felt pretty: I felt pretty worthless cause. I was like onto my bringing to you. I don't know what I mean to say to you. How do we fix this? I don't know it's bigger than the country. Now it's the western way of life. After four years of searching after to you there is of really intense study

a year of writing and then taking book and re writing it entirely again. I can promise We come to you and say but what the problem is, and I Have a way to win where we all win, Where half the country doesn't lose, we there something happening right now and I know I can diagnosing point write directly to the cancer. That's eating us and I can, point, you write directly to the solutions. You want a way out, You want to understand what's happening and you want away out, I invite to join me. On the path that I'm laying out now in addicted outrage were also going out to travelling. There Tree find out about that tourist Glenn backed outcome in order your book. If youth,

If you ve trusted me before to say this direction, and you ve noticed that I have been wrong. When I was frustrated and angry and and I what listening. I am not Frustrated, I'm not angry, and I have been listening for the last couple of years. More than I have talked, I tunnel join me join me on the search to save the western way of life, didn't outrageous where we begin This is the best of learned. America is at a crossroads We have to decide or we'll be decided for us. My father taught me when I was very young, the most.

Powerful words in any language. Are these I m. And the reason why there so powerful is because whatever it is that you say after that, you begin to believe, and you create. What is America saying it is right now. We are being told over and over again, we are worthless, though a stern way of life, is worthless that, Erika is not good, never has been. In fact it's a full As for bad. And unless we actively replace those things in our heads and the head, Of those around us, we, Will be worthless

and we will be a force for bad. We are arguing about some of the dumbest things. I've ever seen. And we are missing what's wrong Really going on the world is being redesigned right now and so many of us are worried about the future. Today will see in the New York Times and elsewhere that the world only has ten years and you have to be a hero in the next ten years. If you don't stop global warming. Why we are all going to die. So you must be a hero today and you have to take action. The question is, what does it? To look like. Do any of the things that the environmentalists are actually propose.

Do they help or hurt. What the world looks like in twenty thirty pens on how we answer questions that we're possibly arguing out right now. We can try. Avoid it. We can not listen, we can not pay attention, but bond offer said not speak is to speak, not to stand is to stand now who answer, will count as our own as our answer We all be remembered winter soldiers and complicit. With what I believe will be remembered as the greatest failure and crime in humanity's history.

Standing by. Waving your finger or waving the flag as the western world burns. I do not want to be part of the problem in America. And I feel that all the time we all do, but what counts is the effort. What counts These are you trying you crying and are you better today than you were yesterday,. Have you found any answers or Or, are you only shouting things down. Are you just out in the street Resting traffic. Because you feel it's your right well

Have you even looked at what your rights mean Where do your rights even come from I saw think progress right the whole article about how the constitution has failed. I was a headline: the Institution has failed and then goes on to explain how it is really a slavery document and the three fifths in the constitution all These all lies. Now you can argue that we can begin to teach our children. You can argue that. And you can throw it back in their face with some sort of epitaph door.

Name calling of some sort. Here's the question that we all have to answer is: Erika a force For good, or a force for bad. That requires real thought and discussion It is neither, in my opinion, it is both. It has been a force for bad, and I warn you. If we leave the bill of rights we it will become the door kissed force ever on earth with our technology? We will make the Nazis look like rookies make no mistake, We have been bad, we have read,

the Japanese. We Ended up the Germans and the Italians we ended up the blacks we old people? They couldn't vote. Including women. But we were also the people that freed people we read the blacks and we fought for it. We fought and died. We fought to free the Japanese. We fraud to free the German. And all of Europe and the world we fall But to free Russia. From the tyranny of communism,.

And we failed in the time of peace. Are we good or our? be bad. Is the declaration of independence still a viable mission statement, because that's all that is the declaration. Independence is a mission statement period. Do we still hold these truths to be self evident? Forget the past? Let's talk about the future. We I've, never ever read each the heights demand. Did by our mission statement Have we gotten better? Is still worth striving for we hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal. That means we are born Equal, we all have an equal chance, don't judge somewhere

by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. Do you have do you have Everything the baby laying next to you has when you were born Far as human rights and dignity. Do you still believe that and I'm talking about. Well, the way. I am asking you as an aspirational mission statement that the mission statement of our country Do you want to live in a country that drives and falls short, but picks itself back. Up again, do you want to live in a country that says all men are created, equal, and they are endowed by their creator. Why would you have Ro God into it too. I don't care to put their it

Gus must be bigger than man. The reason why the creator is important You don't have something bigger than man. Then man will print. Take away rights. So if you want to see the moon, the eternities, the great cosmos, whatever. But he didn't Douze each of us with certain on changeable rights and those rights are life Birdy in the pursuit of happiness. Now, there's a lot more than that where the bill of rights comes in. Do we still believe in this area. The aspirational statement. We are only talking about the past, we're talking about the mistakes of the past. You cannot fix.

Mistakes of the past with saying where we're going So where are we going too far? You anti terrorist down now I age, your website. I read your mission statement. I. Strongly disagree. Capitalism is not the problem Capitalism, that is, that has no moral sentiment is, but you don't fix that by us eight run economy by co op. It always fails, know you and your allies in the press review. Is to point out that that is exactly what you are looking for. It, Failed system. This one has been this. One has failed us because

It has been usurped our institution no longer means anything. The bill of rights no longer means anything. Why? Because Let's not talk anymore. Anybody who makes the oath of office in Washington nine Percent of them are liars not even not even. Intentional liars, they don't know it They don't believe in it, they will tell you they do. As was told to me by a very powerful individual, once look glad we all believe in the constitution, but you know you gotta do what you gotta do know, No, you do not do what you have to do that ends justify the means we We believe in this or we do not, and that is the question America do. You believe.

Neutral, half assed now thought out. Sitting on the sidelines, of those answers me nothing. In the end, Only those who know it who understand it, who have done their homework, who can intellectually defend it. Those are the winter soldiers, those be the ones that restore freedom for all Mankind. Everything else is the service, a game and actually a tool? in the hands of those who wish to create chaos and destroy all have that monologue, much more is actually

about the recovery, stuff, alcoholism and I'm trying to achieve finding our unum. What is our purpose anymore when I talk about them, with you and those who have read the book. If you have read the book ate it Seventy seven be easy catch. Take dawn in Indiana, Odin, welcome to the programme the morning, a You like go ahead. Logo answer who wanted me to look at page new to ninety four of the book addicted outrage? What's what's your question? I know I'm just such daddy, that I'm Page to ninety four, oh you are at this end, you're talking about recovery stuff. Without I'm trying to try this to the nation, and where is the nation rock bottom in your opinion, and how do we recover from it.

Hoof I I I beginning to think but that it is civil war. I'm beginning to think that are rock bottom is too far down, However, I I can't live in that world. And it depends on how many people will will stand and not go over the cliff. How many people are there are there are none of us. Republicans and Democrats in our own neighborhoods. That will say I don't want anything to do with that. I won't do that's not who we are as people, that's not who my neighbours are, and I am I'm going to be pushed over the cliff by Anti Far Nazis. I'm not doing it. Do we hit that on well I would hope, isolation, a nation that we do not ever hit that, but I think you're you could be hitting on something happened.

Civil war in our nation- may not be physical, like our lack of war, but it could be on the social. He had platform a were already in the hands of the horse, we're already in that I am. I am vice be concerned about violence, and you know you have an assassination you, you have any of these kinds of things and it could spiral the country out of control, and I would hope that we would we bless it, be the peacemakers less it be the peacemakers and it's gonna be harder and harder to be those people, and that does not mean, as I point out in the book over Virgin does not mean surrender your principles, it just it just means stand in what you ve always believed stand in. What you know is true. Encourage others to stand with you,

go back to your phone calls today for people who have read addicted outrage and want to make, aid to illustrate one of the points in the book or have question when a further the dialogue aided it seventy seven BC k? If you have read the book, let me go to gray Greg is, he contributor for the Federalist, while Hive Gregg how area I walked around look good to hear from you talk to you. I understand that five years ago. You may not have been my my biggest van. No, no, not at all. Actually I'm with you Gregg on that won't know which, hopefully will wonder he had. So he has different reasons. You are on the left we are very much so tell me about it. Well, I was I was raised by far left cannot actually be

parents and be no. There was just kind of pushed into me from a young age and it was just the it was. How I saw everything is like us built over the entire world and I walked around looking suspiciously it everybody thinking that There's something deeply broken within them that their out to get somebody did they don't understand where I do even I I didn't and very much at all It was pure emotion and it was raw and ill informed. So what happened and well. I would have my close friends We are having a discussion and heap. He actually mentioned Fox NEWS and just kind of said that that was his his new source and I was appalled. And I was furious and I went

I'm from man, you know just thinking like what I thought I knew this guy. Were you all along? I had no idea. Is this some kind of monster like how could how could this be? And I got curious as to how All this could happen and I went home and I started watching and listening to Some people on the other side and it was quite a slap in the face. This was prior to Transition in the whole situation now and all this flame throwing and what I saw were you know, people who celebrate what we ve overcome instead of what we ve had to overcome. And it was really powerful and very restorative to me again, you're looking at your books, you, through the lens of addiction, looking at

the way that we approach our politics. It guard one another through their lands. I think is so important. I've I've gone through addiction, myself and new an attic you you learn about about right. Your humility and you find her defined comfort in some of the most unlikely places. And we know it really kind of becomes com, Do you know you can save it? Diversities are greatest strength, but the innovative it's more than that. It sets the cooperation between. Diverse people, it's the humility of diverse people. I think I one of my favorite quotes is absolutely where there is doubt there is freedom We we, we flip that up on its the week we are now so I mean look at Antiphon directing travel. They are so convinced that they are right. They will be

origin you, if you disagree with them, There's no freedom, their way. There is doubt there. Freedom where there is humility, there is freedom of Billy and went when your intellectual aspiration. When curiosity, against the green in any way when the moon that becomes punishable view, I think I think they really risk. Driving good people down. Some unsavory roads and that there is no good in that Grapnels apron tradition, the absolutely Thank you so much for reading the book and I'm going to send you a signed copy, but thank you for reading and calling in Daryl in Kentucky you're on the Glenn Beck program, hi Daryl They go and have a darn good. How are you doing great sway

as a result of the book- and I think that my my fairer part of it is it needs. No, we can you can't surrender. Like you said several times, we have to remain civil, because maybe I'm naive and thinking this, but I think that eventually the left will realize they have gone too far. They will step back from the ledge and, if we're civil before they are standing, strong and our principles will be able to bring them back into the fold and brain I back together, but if we get in, we do the same thing we're doing just held here. The country apart you were on the left is well at one point I was,

I was raised in southern. What's your union, my family were very deep blue Democrats and we believe the Republicans real people do take money away from four to give to the rich and am now I I was pretty progressive, guys in college, and am I didn't really start looking at the other side until after twenty four team, I I went to war. I was a soldier in the military set all two thousand and fourteen in Afghanistan leading some of the best men and women. I've ever met in my life- and I came back to my country- was completely different. I couldn't figure out what happen My was no longer welcoming left is a straight line. EL veteran, so I had to figure out what happened. I started looking at people that I had marked, including yourself in the past and the actual.

Third reading are Louis Wines and Michael order is pay you on which you noted the bone and that that really out now, we are buying into their theory liver too much, but I've I've seen first hand, and I do believe that We have another five years. Is that this getting worse before it gets better, but I still believe the dawn is coming. So. Do I it's whether or not we can. Of people away from the cliff before turning to years. Twenty twenty five were, it starts us come back the other direction, that's right so, How can we help people like you, because I, but I think we need start defining Democrats when, They are the Democrats. I think we need start saying the people in the leadership of the party, because I dont think you like you. There are Democrats who are good, love the country and are finding themselves go and wait a minute. I dont have any place to go and

we have to I'm not saying it's in the Republican Party, I'm just saying people need to start being more welcoming. To people who are finding themselves on the outskirts, what should we be aware of that? You went through. I think you should be aware that even no policy and is is an area that we may never agree on. That principle is something that we can agree on that things like individual freedom. Things like now having a government that can control you from you four hundred miles away the control? Every little aspect of your life said somebody I talk to my wife. And my niece about all the time is that you know before before President Obama,

I voted for the guy and I car like what he was selling the present. Its name didn't get mentioned at the dinner table every single night at my home, when I was growing up the power that we have given to Washington over the past ten twenty years is too much and I'm not really sure what the end state, but the solution for that is what I think is talking about the things you talk about the principles that make us all united are ruining the bill of rights, the things that they make it all american are weakening. We can unify behind slowly, the section of because I I mean I've really struggled with what it is that brought us together, it's really or can bring us back together really so simple when you finally get onto it it is the bill of rights. Don't you think I agree, I think,

You will never finds in any other country that I've been I've been several Africa, Germany, Afghanistan, Romania, you'll, never find a country that that beach itself up over its past as much as America, we we realised that we ve done some horrible things like you said in your reading near my long, but we also know, I think it's Sunday, the Danish to see the said by recognising our false by admitting to our ports. You have the kind of away admit you America's more superiority, because we realise that we have made mistakes and we're trying to fix them. Darrell. Thank you so much for your phone call appreciate it. God bless of a great point about how, before Obama presents name did come up every day at the dinner table. Obviously, that's getting even worse. Now withdraw from people are obsessed about talking

all the time the distorted enacts Ios about how they are. The networks have recognised this and there are their doubling they ve enjoyed high ratings engagement from Trump coverage, and for that works at a relatively low cost. Neither It has been said around these high returns. It's unlikely news outlets will cut back, meaning the barrage of political content being created and absorb during the Trump presidency will likely outlived this administration they wanted. They want to make me like I was a celebrity erika in an he's. A jigsaw polarizing guy in people, love him and hate him, but they want to cheat. They want this to be the norm, they want. To be obsessed with this all the time at the expense of the rest, your life. It is in a totalitarian regime. It is the norm after no wonder fewer or the leader is saying and doing and wants you to do- is the norm in anything that normal ices has any intention of saying. You know what that's good for America is mistaken. It's wrong.

And this is you know this- is its driven. I think at this point by point sin and viewers, and in all its it's one of those things that just goes is gonna continued. It can be hard to reverse that addiction is well they we know when when they can get the Rachel Motto audience is addicted to outrage, maybe more than any other right their ratings have through the roof because of anything MSNBC return, you know he's gonna, reverse that path. Now you know because they are well. You know what maybe we went to. I don't know I mean I'd like to be

domestic about it, but I don't see it happen. Hurried take quick break pact. Your phone calls aided eight. Seventy seven Bc K Glenn Back combat around. Do you have any outrage, elected people in your life? How you know what causes me off about that? You want to help them, but you're constantly dodging being thrown, and you don't know how trade giving them a copy of Glinda latest book addicted to outrage it's much cheaper than therapy and herds less book to your head and is more fun addicted to outrage the new book from Glenn back available everywhere books are sold. Let's go to Kelly in Oregon. I wanted to say thank you,

I'm listening to her on audio, so it s a lot of finally did a great job, and you up, I wanted to say thank you for your references it and the food section whose that's a little misleading, because I think I talk about food. Let me tell you what it is: where were you take in it? The Mcdonald One envy the thirty one flavors Falcon rather explaining President Trump I have been able to use those references in saying that there are some good things about to my liberal friends. You don't have the like making a ban on, but there are some good things, but when you I'd Mcdonald having you like the french fries, so you don't hate everything about Mcdonald's like the fries right. So. I've been able, what's gonna use, but in a joking way, and courage to get them to make me feel better

like I'm a little bit like him personally, so anyway really enjoyed that your book and being able to use lad. Acting like a laugh about with a laugh about food, and so did he tell you. Thank you. Thank you very much strong in Oregon, I will send you a copy. The book signed to you, listen the The point I made in the book about Mcdonald's is its one way, can tell if people are being disingenuous. If you have nothing good to say about someone, I mean nothing, everything is bad really. I mean, even even people who would Andy say something good about Adolf Hitler, the honour, the Audubon, ok, doesn't really our balance, our away the other, but ok, you can't.

Anything and I compared the news coverage to a bunch of people who are just telling you that everything- Mcdonald's, sucks everything they don't mention that they ok, but I gotta tell you the phrase of the best fries ever. If they can't admit that Mcdonald's fry is superior either they hate everything else. They're, not an honest broker. They're, not an honest broker in Scotland, ethnic muffin too, by the way the enemy griddle I could go on and on and I could have. But I didn't Sean you ve read, addicted outrage, welcome to the poor What are you gonna marry you very good good. Yeah yeah. What is it really surprised me I'm going to reading it and it was you I went back to school at forty. You disable that he also, I ain't a goin back.

College Ed. I ain't becoming friends what they really really really little professor. I de the b t you I've been really illegal and really really not by Ed? I could never understand Why nobody on campus could understand how we could be brought. You were. After reading it that did not reach. Now I get it you'll because we could sit there and we could discuss problem why we can agree on the problem now. We must agree on how to fix the problem, but we could have been simple conversation between the two of us agree, but that it was a problem No, nobody else could sit there and even agree that it was a problem

so is your: did you read the section yet about the unum? You I'm about him. Quite well I'll tell you I'm going you gotta, forgive me, but applying fraud. That's that's why this fight weaken concussions through my military service. So thank you that and that right now are we taking care of you as a country Actually, I'm one of the fortunate ones once but beyond your back, I'm also a jerk about it and fight to make sure the day. Good The right things are good. Sean when you get to the bottom part, you will, I think, possibly and I would love for you to call back and tell me if this is right. You will possibly understand why the two of you can get along it's not because of that I really want to know because my thesis is that we can

fix this and we can come together, but only If we only if we can unite around the things that brought us together in the first place and that the bill of rights that allows people to disagree and walk away from each other without hating, because you understand you have a right to believe that an if you have the same item of the Judeo, western culture, which is you know, don't steal, don't lie. Dont cheat, don't kill well those things are, what brought us together, our judeo christian culture. Our bill of rights If we have those things in common, you can unite Fortunately, the people in Antiphon do not have those things the Nazis do not have those things. I think the part,

These are disavowing those things because, while it at take everything we have to do to win, the people if they're reminded. I believe they do have those things we just don't believe me other person has it as well, where we can find that in the their person, ten km, immense man forget about the God stuff that kill we shouldn't sleep with- you know the neighbour neighbours why I shouldn't covet what you have you know, Those things lie, cheat steal and the bill of rights you have those we can fix. It find those people

Arthur. Herman is the author of Gandhian Churchill, finally for the Pulitzer Prize, but is also the author of one of my favorite books. Freedoms forge came out a few years ago and I ve to have him on the show for quite some time, but he's here with us today Arthur welcomed the programme. How are you doing very well pleasure to beyond, send me a copy of the book, yes, I will, if you sent me a copy of of Egypt, James Ford signed. I would I would she related delighted. I- It would get into a little while prince forges is just a tremendous tremendous history book that I think everybody should have. I appreciate Let me let me go back to Churchill and and Gandhi sure if you are from

India, you see Gandhi completely different, not Gandhi, Churchill completely differently than those in the West do so yeah, that's probably true. Partially today I would say less so, in the year during the war time period, when you saw that there was a lot of respect, including by Gandhi, for Churchill, for his defiant stand against the Nazis, to really rally Britain, which out of Indians, thought hey you now Britain is on the decline. Losing its circuit ability around the world, its imperialist power, and they were, I think, quite shocked and surprise way. Miss Churchill was able to rally, british people and then but basically value free world to fight against Nazi fascism,

but you're right today. A lot of the focus is on church. All you know ass, a white supremacist as supposedly the guy who triggered the great Bengal famine during the course of forty three forty four you'd like this. If you don't think of it now I don't think so at all. I think what you come to realize about the great thing I'll famine is. It was a concatenation of of bad circumstances, the loss of Burma, which had been India's main source for for rice imports. And a lot of mishandling on the ground by the british bureaucracy. The civil service bureaucracy basically fail to deal with the problem that for

thirty years, even assuring Indians. They could deal it. I mean it's big government, an action plan and the they failed utterly until Churchill appointed Archibald Label as viceroy, and he managed to turn the situation around with Churchill's encouragement. So your Churchill, if I may speak on the subject, you people talk about the similarities between Churchill, I'll drop and I dont think. Sometimes it's a bit overblown buying Churchill had his own version of tweets, which wise is outbursts, especially at further Work council in which he was we denounce India for bothering him about the food shipments and about the need to do to work foods,

flies to India when they were needed. The two were four for the armed forces and he was capable of saying some quite shocking things, and so just as people focus on trumps, tweet, twitter, feed and think that that's a clue to understanding his mind in his policies. There has been a tendency to look at Churchill's can, if irritated outbreaks in a lot in his mind, nineteen, forty three, a little bit and will be a little bit and having to deal with the crisis. Far far away in a guinea in a country which was already plunged into chaos because of civil disobedience.

Kind of strange as patients- and so he said things let off steam- that historians today, particularly certain indian historians, capitalize on as a way to promote the idea that the church was somehow Peter responsible for or even the architect of the great thing or famine was a terrible famine. What one and a half million people died so but Churchill's Churchill's responsibility for this shrinks away when you, when you look at the what the real situation was and understand it in the course of of of the history of India under british rule, Talking to one of my favorite authors and historians, senior Fellow Hudson Institute Arthur Herman author, freedoms forage also Gandhian Churchill. Would Wouldn't you say that all eight men are both good and bad, when you look back through the eyes of today's history that there are. There is no perfect man.

Gandhi was a racist is well, he didn't see. He didn't. The plight of the the Africans aid in which were which was very similar to his own in India. He didn't. We I seated on the same train car with it with a with an African. Yes, of course, there is the derogatory term of the day, the equivalent of Edward, whereas coffers and Gandhi was fairly contemptuously right.

South africa- that doesn't there that doesn't plan in a book and explain the book his proud, he began its civil disobedience campaigns in South Africa to call attention to the plight of Indians living there, who he believed. I think crackly should be treated with the same rights as any other british subjects, but is big complaint was that they had been relegated on the other side of the color line, away from white inhabitants and of citizens in South Africa, but in relegated the same side as as South Africa's blacks. He wanted Indians pushed to the correct side, the upper side right. Nothing to say about the blacks. Very little to say about that it was not. His concern

and it was not an issue that they really are motivated. His multiple visits to with her with the British with regard to the indian presence in Africa generally internationalist mean- and this is one of the things I think both he and explain about both he and Churchill- were both very strong nationalism. Gandhi has come to be given a kind of this universalistic, globalist kind of agenda because of his pacifism until you believe and passive resistance, but he was an indian nationals from beginning to end and that's what drove him and then that's what that that was his legacy, Oh, do you walk away feeling the same way about Gandhi and Churchill that you could just concentrated there. What I'm driving towards is yet we're asking now. If America is a good place or a bad place, it's both its both its it's. What are we

are we getting better or are we getting worse? I think we're getting better in the long term, we're getting much better as a people, but we ve done whore, couple things we ve done really amazing, great things Worden, where neither add nor good we're both and that's what the proper study of history should bring. Gland and also of the study of historical figures. I think you're absolutely on the mark here and you not I written about look. If I look at my record of Biographies Gandhian Churchill book my book, Douglas Macarthur are reaching back almost twenty years. My book and Joseph MC crazy. You know I did a book on Mccarthy and what I expect in there. Netherlands is the other was a lot of bad about Mccarthy. On a lot of good, too, his onto a real issue, namely the communist conspiracy, to subvert the? U S, government, and the way which had it infiltrated into the federal government. Only nineteen thirty nineteen forty, but

people were outraged because in many cases people want yell availing want of Satan. Its imbalance, the subject of the. So can we as it's really hard to do. It's really, I, with a handful of characters in Israel you know who they are really are defined once it democratic western societies who who fit to fit either. One of those so let me let me break here and then when I want to pick it up, because I think Mccarthy is a really great example. I first started reading about Mccarthy and and and realizing wait a minute. Wait, a minute he's not this this. You know black cloth Darth Vader! You know villain every of the way he she really did have some things right, but if we can't kick nice that new ones, because we're now in a society where you're, either one hundred percent in the boat or on the train or your one hundred percent off the train, and that's all

That's not where a healthy society should be will will pick it up there when we come back Arthur Herman must read his his work, especially with freedoms, forge it's just remarkable. Will talk about here in just a second, historian and just fantastic, fantastic, Arthur author, through Herman is with us you seeing your fellow at the Hudson Institute. He has written the idea of decline in the West, Macarthur Nineteen, seventeen. I mean it's about Wilson. You had me at hello. And and one of my favorite books, freedoms, forge well back to the programme zagged better, you know better than most. The one thing we haven't injected into this is real fear. Like a war, I mean you know you, you wonder how anyone could believe.

Aliens were attacking. You know when Orson Welles did war, the world's it wasn't that the medium. Was it wasn't just that the meeting was new? They were used to hearing all about this foreign, an enemy that was going to be invading, and it the fear lived They were living it daily, plus you, at into that any kind of economic collapse we don't have the infrastructure anymore. I mean the deeply personal infrastructure anymore to be the people that we work with our grandparents were now. We face an enormous challenges: Glenn, when talking about this? You know the themes forges a book which is now really beginning to grab the attention of policy makers at the Pentagon, than elsewhere in two weeks ago in sight I was bad.

The meeting at the National Defence University organised by the put down to office of now of of net assessment, which the one that looks that the office it looks ahead. What's coming up on the horizon and the discussion was, would United States be able to mobilise in the event of a protracted conflict with the near pure competitor, and they brought me there to talk about it? Freedoms forge has become very much shorter of one of the one of the key tax for discussing these issues, about mobilization of the Pentagon, also at the White House, and it's very gratifying to see that happen now that your words can have impact on where policy is going, but what I stress to them, as I said, look the from the point of view of mobilization. We got two issues, one is on the technical and industrial site and there's if there is a host of reasons why this is gonna become a challenge. You know our traditional defence industrial base has decayed there's no doubt about that, but could have

looked at war war too. We had the industrial base, it was necessary and sufficient yes to mobilise. Today, we're gonna have to have a global supply chain, looked royal eyes to help that with the new technologies that, under that underpin weapons systems in the future, a high and quantum technology and three d, printing and robotics that we're gonna have. This is a whole different way of thinking about what an industrial base has worked and commercial companies but Glenn. The other thing that I stress to them was the real prop up to go looking to face is not in the industrial economic area in the cultural area in World WAR two and Bill Newton, as I described in my book,

went to see, beat his fellow colleagues auto industry and their suppliers and said we need it now build planes to blow parts for planes to tax. They set bill, we'll do it our country cause will answer. I don't think we have that kind of response from our leading industrial legato ours today, especially in in Silicon Valley. If you look at what glue Google did with three thousand employees protesting, though the Google's contract to work with the Pentagon, an opera on a project may in saying we don't want to go in that way and then, on the other side, that Google building in china- yes, nay, research centre, hiring chinese research, research, scientists with developing a lie there going to be using for their military we have a problem with. I have two of the euro the love, my new book, you and I

best friends, I dont know why we hear You are concerned with exactly the same things I am concerned about. I know this take a long time. For some reason, maybe our fault getting you are on the air, but I would love to say I'd love to invite you back just to talk about freedom. Forge, and if we could do that soon, that be great, if you have time in fat and I'd also like to do that, I'd like to bring it down and just spend a few hours with you honor cause. You are you her voice needs to be heard. You have the history to back it up and we are facing things when you start talk about future wars in an attack in Silicon Valley. You are right on the money and I don't I don't know what to do about it so well. I think we should really talk about this and get your audience involved is too because we are facing a high tech.

Down crisis. You know science, technology, engineering and mouth crisis that is really going to affect how we are able to handle actual security issues in the next decade. Arthur said something that needs to be addressed. Now oh god, it's getting its mind around it, but we need to get the american public behind it. Let's I've been talking about a Manhattan project, for this very thing it will hang on the phone. I want to get some information from even what let's book you fort to spend some more time with us There are many on the Hudson Institute author in historian, Reed feed freedoms, forge it's fantastic, read it s got a room. These he's out dislike. It knows everything yeah! It's like talking to a smart me.

I have no nobody reads without it. So here I know it's well. You just heard these smarmy ease got the bags Glenn back Mercury.