Dave Evans is a Lecturer in the Product Design Program at Stanford, Management Consultant, and co-founder of iconic gaming company, Electronic Arts. Having participated in forming the corporate cultures at Apple and EA, Dave decided his best work was in helping organizations build creative environments where people could do great work and love doing it. And, maybe, along the way, answer the question, "what should I do with my life?" Helping people get traction on that question finally took Dave to Cal and Stanford and continues to be his life’s work. Bill Burnett is Executive Director of the Design Program at Stanford. He got his BS and MS in Product Design at Stanford and has worked on a wide variety of projects ranging from award-winning Apple PowerBooks to the original Hasbro Star Wars action figures. Together, they wrote New York Times bestselling book, Designing Your Life, and the follow-up, Designing Your Work Life (https://amzn.to/3hflUvz), train coaches and run workshops for individuals and organizations.
You can find Bill Burnett & Dave Evans at:
Website : https://designingyour.life/
Twitter : https://twitter.com/DYourLife
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dave Evans is a lecturer and the product design program at Stanford management consultant co, founder of the iconic gaming company, electronic arts, having part
tibet, it informing their cultures at apple and a dave decided that his best work was really in helping organizations build creative environments where people could do great work and really love doing it and maybe along the way, answer the question. What should I do with my life and helping people
traction on that question finally took dave to cow and stanford, and it continues to be his life work. Now,
burnett who became his collaborator is
the executive director of the design program at Stanford, he got his b s and m s in product design at stanford. He has worked for a wide variety of projects, ranging from award winning apple powerbooks to the original hasbro star, wars, action figures and together they
all their wisdom about doing great, were being lit up and living a better life and wrote the
tons, bessel, hymn book design, your life and more
italy, the follow up designing your work life,
and they also continue to train coaches and right workshops and individuals, and
the organisations will explore
this question, so I
I had the chance to sit down with dave and bill earlier this year. In fact it was late February. I was actually in california and we did a live event at Stanford university, where we recorded a conversation before
the life pot, cash gathering.
and it was amazing and the conversation with super powerful end, as happened
within a matter of days, so many things started getting shut down. Everything changed dramatically
and as we had done with a handful of conversations that we recorded early, we held onto this conversation and thought to ourselves. Well, maybe it's more appropriate
for when things start to change one thing shift and then we held onto it and held onto it.
found ourselves now saying you know what we are in a place where were in a long term experience here and
dave and bill have shared in this conversation and how it relates to what someone,
people are now finding themselves in an exploration of how they want to really
lived, their working lives and the lives devote their energy and be of service is so relevant to this particular moment. So we wanted to actually finally share.
This conversation with you, so what you hear was actually taped, live,
front of an audience at Stanford university, so you'll hear the sound is a little bit different. You may hear some background noise and some audience in the
occasional le laughed,
their jokes and pity laughter at my occasional corny catch jokes, I'm so excited to share the incredible ideas and wisdom with you. Now I'm Jonathan fields- and this is good life project.
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it is a I even work where it is. Creativity, come from. What's the secret to living longer, ted radio, our explores the biggest questions with some of the world's greatest thinkers, they will surprise challenge and even change you listen to and be ours ted radio, our whatever you get your PA guests.
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who you are and how you came to work together, because you come from sir, like different walks of life
and somehow ended up regionally teaching this course together and trying to figure
What is this thing called design digging and why is it being used in this one domain, but where
not really applying this process this way of thinking to actually creating a better life. So how does the marriage first?
Here too, the origin and that, through to you in springer today,.
going all the way back to. When I always say: stanford sophomore year, seven
five thousand years ago in the pterodactyl is on the white plaza and struggling with the question. What do I do with my life? I've found you know most of the grown ups, who are supposed to be helpful, not helpful at all.
I found a really difficult vigour, my own life out and get in my career and I'm an apple in the early days and found myself on the first corporate culture,
media with Steve nineteen? Eighty cause we're word about what makes apple won't be apple anymore, someday and at an opening,
subsequent thirty years notice. Everybody's got this question particularly the workplace, about I want to do meaningful work on it to work for you. I want it to work for me. I want this to be generative. Maybe they don't use that language, but that's what they were looking for and struggled.
to everybody's got this question password
Many more years later, I'm having a copy of the ganem randy over at berkeley
gosh did you should teach a class on this.
Minor problems and not of the faculty. I don't have a phd it up, having a context
because I can solve everything, but the lousy commute. I said, deal
So I taught a course experimentally,
one student said: are you teaching in the spring, because my roommate wants to take- and I said sure- and I made a deal with universe of the kids- show up I'll show up so fourteen semesters later
in this class at berkeley called finding your vacation.
A man how so platinum, David Kelly get together an event. This thing called the de school or decide to invent the deed school, which is where we are now and
order to focus on that David Kelly asked this guy bill Burnett to run the design programme.
and so in two thousand and seven a herd bill was coming here to run the design programming to sit hey bill gates,
this kind of stuff. He cares about students and standards, a lot less terrible drive for me. Let's have lunch, and so we had lunch in two thousand and seven in the spring, which are those
first of ten lunches over a year. Talk me this ambiguous idea of helping students find their way
in about a minute and a half bill goes. That's a great idea is a huge problem. We should totally fix that design. Thinking is the way to really solve this thing, so take all that stuff, you're doing and flip it into design. Give me a proposal will teach it into a prototype it. The summer will teach at this fall. Let's go. I gotta I gotta run. So it was a two minute meeting and
you know I'll get an appointment. We gotta go so one of the few times a bill talk faster than I do, and so then you know we start that spring
thinking of ideas and that fall teaching design, students which eventually teaching author students,
In particular, the design thing really did work no at. Why was that? What it design work
it isn't inherently human centered, the way we teach it and you know both of you and I have been fields working with students for long time. I started
I finished my masters in eighty two. I started teaching here part time in eighty three. I've been doing this for, like thirty six years,
something in an office hour after office, our office, our really smart, capable students rowing. I dont know what to do. I don't know how to lunch.
his work in a sack as much as anybody tells me
How will I find something that I want to? I like, or might even be meaningful people keep ask me stupid questions like. What's my passion and I dont know
So I wrong that my broken promise me, professor ants, like nothing
and then they had this experience over at berkeley and you know about.
equally, the class happened because you wanted a shorter commute and I wanted to make free up my office hours,
But no it is it's a real. It's a really big problem. I mean you look around. If you look at the data around the world, sixty united states, sixty eight percent of people say I'm just in
from our highly disengage my job. I hate my job, eighty five percent, whereby people hate their jobs, so the stew,
we started with students and then pretty soon after we had gotta got over the university.
and by the way now we and we give the class to any university that once it we're not being taught to two hundred and fifteen some universities,
that wonderful woman over their gabriele runs are studios.
Everybody's got the same question like like be meaningful. Will this be interesting? What's work, how does work fit into this big thing called life and its essentially a human problem, because we're trying to
but designers do is make new things, but I ve never happened in the world. This is an iphone. Never never happened before
you. Do it when you build lots and lots of prototypes and you figure it out because
can getting did about the future. So when you want to do something in the future, that's brand new
need a process design thinking that process it works over and over again, if you plan to your life
well, what are you trying to do something new in the world? Your future right, you know,
you ve, never been there before you dont know what is going
like our little anxious or you're at a point of change, we are working with
Thirty and forty something had an idea I have.
his career thing, but it's not exactly what I didn't really work out. The way I thought or it's ok, but I'd like to go faster, so everybody's got this problem. How do I invent the future? Well, design, thinking and design is a way of inventing your future.
One or two choices: whether students,
twenty in launching or thirty and borders. Fifty and think about the anchor career you got.
the two traces, the futures coming. You don't get to that.
You get the default future such happens in you react to it or
I know you put your intention in the world when you try to make the world do the things that you are interested in and you know it
like when you buy red car
and I said you see it's gotta be cut by companies with some is every year
It's the cars are already there just you notice them, because you started thinking about red cars like the one you.
you start noticing things about the future. Like I wonder if I could do this, I wonder if I could do that. If you get curious wreck- and you start talking to people and try and stuff
you'll notice that all of his, where there, anyway, you just weren't paying attention. So this design
thinking, thing is the way of inventing this future and paying attention to
you are and what the world needs from you you
a hundred something other colleges and universities are now also teaching this correct. So it's on
You're? U team up! You teach that the seeds of days worth it ended,
I'm taking you bring it here and you can only develop a close to another decade that goes out into the world and then September's two thousand. Sixteen frightened to actually do stillness into,
Right right design, your life that goes out into the world
imagining that that actually was the catalyst for all these other schools distort saying
like raising their eyebrows and say yes, a phone really started right. So to me it certainly did it's late, the roger banister moment of design thinking
reading your life because we have this year,
one person shows you can run for a while and then in the years after all, these people are breaking at break.
That becomes it's what they were like others is intelligent process
what that we can design to this existential question that everybody suffers and never has an answer two and now
These guys have come up with a way to sort of map it out with which is linear, simple, straightforward, progressive
david. I had been teaching about six seven years before we got so this idea of writing a book and none
while the committee stage right, because he is like the right.
and then we were impartial. We were also worried that will ensure the books
we do what we do in a classroom in the classroom. You know you've got students, tell you how they're reacting it's ten weeks, we get a, we get a smaller group of facilitator, very personal yeah so
really cautious that the book
would wonder useful, wouldn't be too some silly self help, but it makes you do a lot of stuff. It doesn't work, and then you feel bad oliver stuff is pretty research.
They see their positive psychology, then research. So so we try to
after in a way that would be useful and accessible, and you could read it in any order so that you know
expression when the students ready the teacher will arrive. So when the students,
the book will arrive. If the book is the right book for you, it'll speak to you somehow,
and it took off- and we were put surprise- we still have trouble thinking about ourselves- is authorised because we think of ourselves. Ass product guys,
right. We shift the product and then everybody because its authors that's weird
and now we have a new product
really at that point gathered lots of other universities found out about it. This wonderful community of people called life, coaches and an executive coaches are caricatures all
shut up on our doorstep and said this is amazing, can we use the stuff, so we now have a certification programme for coaches,
And it turned out to be kind of a movement.
people really like thinking
themselves as a designer. That's one hook.
And imagine themselves is creating being creative in there in the asian ages
their own lives, and that word agencies that in that kept like pops up, also because it is that switch from reactive to a sense of power control agency over time
Ok, I don't necessarily know what the outcome is. Gonna be yet, but have a process where
I'm not your showing up and reacting with other think as people thing is the appropriate path for me, I'm actually pushing
That word, and I kind of know where to go with this, even though I don't know where it's going to end, and I think that's a huge shift in psychology for so many
people so that goes out into the world of sport is surely generates a ton of interest dumb fast,
howard, we're sitting here now, honest agents ever do sports, twenty twenty and
haven't another book out so for two product guys who are like struggle with the idea author,
now book to write most bitter right, diverse personally,
I'm so glad that was done never again,
and you're here so for you too, and you both have so much going on individual in your lives? It now as well as collectively
what happens in the intervening years? What happens between the only tool
the team, and now that may,
you say we're still not quite on creating.
some tool that needs to go out and and solve some problem.
What are you a little bit phone rings off the hook and waited here. We hit the road where we stand in front of rooms like this over with anywhere from twenty five to twenty five hundred people and
from that eighteen minutes, TED talk to the eight hour intend to workshop over and over again hundreds literally hundreds of times
and from the now sixty thousand people- and are you know
Well, the community who has signed up to be in the conversation with us, as well as the six hundred thousand book readers alike.
the questions about you know. Ok, I mean at wandered massively redesign my life, but I like it
little better right, worryin about this. About that that question,
is coming in like crazy. The universities are lining up like crazy asking for help. So clearly the question has powers, not like the coolest book on the planet,
have a good book, its answers. The question: that's not getting very good food in this affair,
in a high collar,
and fattening food for a really important question has arrived and then the publisher said look: this is not a book, it's a movement we
If there a couple of things you guys could do, let us know if you think the possibilities. Where would you go from here? Are we an ideation session about that and then they
beckons. If we really want to talk about the work thing in this most of what we are hearing from the world as well
And then I said so: we have that rumour there, as our colleague swept to design the workbook look about work, and I would bill we're screwed,
because we haven't taught this for ten years. We haven't thought this thing. I wouldn't we we we imagine what we should do a book on work. We don't know what the heck the book is: we've we're screwed and twenty minutes later we designed it
it fell right out, because what we forgot was not between us. We work for, like seventy,
Five years, in it logic insulting
and all this executive coaching and all this in a corporate
sure formation work worked organizational development work and the first question was
Do people get stuck at work,
We used to call that a bug list in the early design days, so we had a bug list and no time do we have design solutions to that. Actually we do by nineteen out of twenty of those were not address, and then we just wrote it down,
and then, a year later we finished
takes twenty minutes about the whole jelly out and then a year, and then the area right now
I'm curious what are the bucks right, because it's so bill you references earlier. You know like sixty eight percent people, this engage and eighty five percent of the people hate the work and talked to me have a bit more about the state.
work today, because it sounds like it's almost more bugs answer like good.
Well, let's go, I mean everybody everybody's freaking out right now, but the future of work you know ai, is coming. The robots are coming. No one will have a job in the gig economy, all going to be you're, going to be yeah, you're all going to be uber drivers, maybe if you're lucky
said: they're gonna go out of business so that.
and you know so so I got excited about that dug into that and and the the answer is none of that is going to happen. It's not true by the
This isn't a new question. I pulled a paper from an economist in nineteen nineteen who predicted that by the year two thousand machines would be doing all the work he thought they were steam engines.
So you know what I think I think
in the future work being a creative.
working at such an emotional intelligence, working on creativity, working on collaboration and people. Things together will never be automated and that will be the most high value work, and so you
probably learn to design your life anyway, just to be resilient in the future, because you'll you'll need lots of designs. Stick to you know sort of surf the changes, but the changes have
You know that they're they're already happening- I mean you know. I remember the first spreadsheet spreadsheet is a piece of automation before spreadsheets. If you had a picture of an office, would be full of people entering things into what was called a ledger so that people could calculate
taxes now reuse budgets. When I got out of school, I had a draftsman draw my drawings. Now I just just happened
green imprinted on that came out of three printer while I gotta get coffee
And everybody still has a job summit, one wanted to address that
If you know the and the future of work I mean the future of work is mostly talking about the way future of work and let's do a sci, fi conversation becoming reality. The thing we think is more important is the future of the worker and the future of the worker is now so. The future worker, like you guys, is living in reality today and what's happening, finally has been brewing for frankly, fifteen twenty years is a fundamental shift in organizational shape where the organization is a donut shop or a bm, which is a went from this to this, so organizations are flat.
Bosses have not six direct reports, but twenty
or thirty vendors who were gig employs remotely
of the world, and so you
a clear used to be go up. There is no.
anymore. You get the level three there's a more up,
so a whole bunch of people are really fresher. There's no word up to go
that still the deep and incredibly antiquated ideas. Where do I go next? I go up. There is,
as a dumb idea. So don't waste your time on it, you gotta, go laterally gotta, go other! You gotta, go different,
and now finally,
ploy. Yours are beginning to realise that and are no longer saying we're. Gonna help you with professional development working to help me with empowering you to do your own agency
Definition of your own future, even here at this organization and the big
companies noon and the smaller ones. So what that says is if I dont want to completely quit and start over again, which is really painful.
And not necessary, but at the time you dont resign readers, not so probably one of the biggest isn't the book is in the in the face of that wait, a minute I'm now in charge, and even my boss thinks I'm in charge and settle. How can I help you
you know do whatever it is. You want to do here and now I'm not can tell you what to do yet figure it out. So now you are the agent of your own future in a more powerful way than ever before. She needed a tool kit, and so one of the core things is. How do you redesign your work,
affordable strategies for that
and then I want you dive into that, because this is one seems to be one of the central things and is also completely contrary to what you hear very often, this sort of the pop psychology self help
If you don't like your thing just blow it up, some way doesn't support. You jettison them from your life. You like this is
get it all done with which you know if you're
one years old may be fine, but if you're in your thirties forties fifties sixties, you have a family responsibilities, you built things and and structure around your life
the idea of disrupting on that level is excruciating, and even when people get to a point where they are
I'm ready blow it all up job. I still think we
end up being an unwritten. My intervals, young pointed up a number of times. We end up being
am I delusional because we
we over ethically joy, that we think
we feel the day after we make this change and we profoundly austria under s pain is disruption, is going to bring us
tell me more about linked to the four things.
worth before strategies are
reef. Raymond realist
relocate and reinvent.
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The first one, which is in a reef raymond reengage, is literally bring a new you to the same job with no structural changes whatsoever, and you can actually transform
situation which is not sort of some naturalizing?
make lemonade out of lemons is literally refraining, which are experiences.
The second one means
Change my job description in my current job nine times out of ten, even without my boss's permission and do so successfully cause, I don't need other permission or even or other resources to invent this new job
I can relocate.
over to another kind of a job in the same innovation, pretty
equally and then reinvent is probably have to go. Get some retraining, some heavy lifting might be involved in ozone.
the big harder as you go along with this still for ways to get there from here
and the first one, which really is a mindset, change
can be absolutely huge. We got a couple of examples in the book. The classic one is I mean I can't afford to quit this job.
Was a story in the book about a guy who suddenly real first day on the job realizes. Oh the allied completely. To me, this is a horrible job. My boss is an idiot, it's a nightmare, never happened and literally as jacqueline Hyde, and I can't I can't my resume can't afford me to credit card secure for at least a year year. Two! So really just you know literally eat toxic waste all day every day or invent this new thing.
and the refrain was ok, I can
make was awful better, but I
and find what is working here and it's all about learning, so you can get really efficient because the work itself is boring singing to get really good at doing in as little time as possible. I'm going to grow in my efficiency.
and I'm going to learn all about having been so efficient, I'm going to carve up a day or an hour a day or half a day a week to go, learn stuff from this great big organization. That does things. I don't know a lot about that. I might be able to use some days, I'm going to get a little mb a on the side for free when they're, not looking, that's a complete,
refrain abandoned. I accept the fact that the job I thought I was gonna get does not even exist, but they literally lie to me. So let that go and that freeze me to do this other thing. Is it a consolation prize, but it beats the heck at a waking up and run
Paying the pain bill. What then
people do all the time is up to you
my boss, it again today I put the same thing you did last week
Yes, he did and you're so surprised for the four hundred and sixty seven time. You really want to pay your taxes, like the fifteen
of every month, not just a problem you. Why would you do that, so we're trying to free
people from that in the first
the first strategy. Really deep
happens, and then the reference- and it's really frank and change your. Why why my comment- or I thought I was about-
DR turns out. They lied to me right now.
Example of a guy's gonna have a job that he had called joplin, accompanied by.
And then they should not he's gonna change. Of course everything changed something it's bought, and now he doesn't like it anymore.
but he's got great health insurance in a sick. It to change.
I am coming to work my kid
Yes, isn't about. This is about me anymore. It's not about my career anymore as soon as you as soon as you accept the very frame you are free from the constraints
It's not my fault. They changed the rules
and they also it it's. This repeated idea of taking
the idea that, like it, okay, so I'm no longer in a victim stance in a reactive strikes like how do I be the one who's actually like, has this sense of agency of control?
made interesting. He rubbed the ideology of the wine reform around purpose.
read some research but to three years ago that looked at suffering, right,
and then she showed that when you
refrain suffering as in the name of something that give you bigger sense of purpose. In this context, we were looking at supporting people who are you.
Family who are need to do
something to get money. They hate robot,
somebody down, you tell yourself the story, I'm doing it because I have a mother,
other and whatever is whose maybe somewhere their suffering deeply. They can take care of themselves, but I have this ability to do that, provide for them that it doesn't make
completely, okay, but it changes the quality of the data. They work that you're doing enough, where you're, ok, being there, at least for a window of time,
and having granted the same thing right here right, we ve only call center notoriously tough
I a university like raising money, and
He just introduces a couple of students that have gotten scholarships through the efforts of the call center,
We never would have been able to go to college and all of a sudden it profoundly changes the experience of the people in the culture.
from something that they really don't want to do to some while now they're on their own admission, they're part of a movement they're, making a real difference? Now, there's a couple of things.
Other research stand gilbert at harvard all the research unhappiness. It's not about getting what you on its about.
fully engaging in wanting what you get and you can have
tension about what you get, but sometimes you know. Sometimes you don't get everything perfectly by all accounts. Mother teresa was depressed.
person and deeply unhappy. Most of the time
but she had a really big. Why I'm working with
was the below people here and I'm
I'm giving them sanctuary and giving them the I'm giving them hope in a place to live until they until they die so
It's not a we. We we find these silly. I guess who said work was about feeding my soul. When did that idea?
pop up, mostly in the last twenty years. My grandfather came from germany in eighteen, thirty, three, because this didn't think this hitler guy was going to turn out so well worked his buns off to get the rest of his family out of germany,
Any job you could get just to keep a roof over their head is. Why was
we're here, we're safe or get now sent his daughter.
at the entrance to college and they sent their sons to Stanford and my daughter's now doing a phd in immunology at csf. So it's the immigrant story, but you
the job was not where he was getting his his big wife from he had wonderful community to have church people. People got together, get he had
at the love of people is where you get. You know kind of happiness from not from jobs. So it's cool. If you provide some of that, but that's not
That's it that's a real dysfunctional belief that you got examined
and the purpose, because I actually just did a talk to him at cal state san, luis obispo, two thousand students on the issue of what's my purpose. You know- and I said what's wrong question I mean we almost always say it's the wrong course:
the designers like to say that one of the ideas in the book is good enough for now, with a dysfunctional believes. Is this isn't good enough? I deserve better.
You know, and but I can't find it so, my life's grouped so that in the reframe is what marriage is and no it's not good enough the moment, but if we made it a little bit better, could it be good enough for now
can we really want that idea to be understood, proper, we're a little worried people, canada, it'll, be fine and we're in we're sound passion. I don't mean to be patronage but
This purpose question.
I was telling a thousand students no
don't try to answer the question. What my purpose, because, like what's my passion or is this, it is one of the many questions that culture currently frames inadvertently exclusively
If you could live project dry, you really sure that it is this really it or could it is. It is maybe something
and we don't think there is an it there's, not a perfect. You there's not a one best year, there's not a perfect career. There are lots of good use and there are lots of good ways to go if you're going to pick one and you'll never know because we're bigger than life we're bigger than a lifetime. I should say so of course, there's more than one right answer: there's lots of right answers and we just live our way into it. So
most people suspect I haven't really found my one troop or the one reason I was put on the earth. You know is a sum you may.
feel that way. But but that's rare problem, because there are a couple of good ways you could spend your life on earth.
so my counsel to people is done.
I tried to get done finding your purpose and then just commit yourself to it, but learn how to live. Purposeful lie into the moment that life is presently offering you pay. Attention is build a saying earlier grow your way forward. Something else will develop,
If I start I'm trying to live purposeful Lee right
just a way of being not a destination with an outcome. Then
my ability to say well. Why am I doing this? I wake up at three in the morning I walk in the bathroom. I flip on the light in there guys looking back at me in the mirror going. Why are you doing this? You know
the who'd. They have the three in the morning bathroom conversation in one. You want to have a good answer for that guy in the mirror. That's yelling at you at three in the mornings. Why are we doing a little crazy? Here's, a here's, why we made this decision and here's what we're doing now? And it's not perfect, but it really is good enough at the moment and here's what we're hoping for and go back to, bed you're going to be fine. You want to help.
we'll find that kind of way to live near mentioned agency,
I've been a designer. Ever since I came stamford while I was the physics major full out, but that didn't work out
became a time you don't designers, learn that you never pick your first eddie brainstorm lots of ideas. I took part in the thirty forty some design and been on three sort of teams and apple teams. Attitudes,
I have literally thrown away hundred
thousands of good ideas and picked a few hundred even better. I guess
so throwing away ideas or the notion that there's lots of good means, and it is this just it's just the way. You know my my brain works and what we're
to get people to realise it. Isn't there is no one singular best you watch videos use
perfect job right, the job,
got. Could we make better
You are the agent in this change, not not not the world. Most of the things that we that we talk about for for changing your job in place. You really don't.
even need your bosses permission, although if you go frame it correctly and you tell a good story, your boss he's gonna go! Oh you mean you want to be more efficient and do this job better, faster,
and for freedom in order to do that, you need to make these three changes sounds good to me. Let's go this
an old thank people, don't quit jobs, liquid bosses and yet the time number times I've I've asked
question am, I still not sure you quit right accurate, why my boss was a jerk okay, did you ever talk to him or her by? Why you jerk you ever do that
Why would I do that? Because that's the data? You need to make a good decision it. Nobody does it.
I think it's always this idea that we are in this perpetual and iterative process. Yes right
You know that they're likely only there. There is here now and we keep taking the next step and we may figure out some things along the way that are great and and take us to a place where we feel alive tour season. Sure
but we are like. We may wake up the next day. I date a season plus a day and we get so lets you. That's not. I mean it's also interesting,
the notion of finding a sense of meaning and purpose from work that then, as you said, David, if it's great, when you can make it happen europe, yes,
and also that is not the only place we tend to focus only on the domain of work. As that is a place, I must arrive my purpose or sense of purpose, a sense of meaning in my life.
and when you can this autumn
you knew the refrains and re imagining a change that we are doing it so that you can derive much more and at the same time, there's a whole
life outside of that will still contribute to the totality of the experience of meaning and arise when wake up every single day, and we are life and we exclude that buddy I'm built one
You said you should give the example of
we're in this generation now where it seems like everybody's looking to work, to provide this purpose and not everything outside
if that there's another ship, that's happened, which, as we are peace that have to belong, but right, it's wired into us. We have a physiological, a psychological need to be and the places that we used to look
for that sense of belonging right or are going away really quite right,
So I wonder of part of what's happening is ended.
Sense of belonging very also often gives us a sense of purpose or opportunities to do things in a sense of purpose. So I wonder if that finance
he spoke. It has even more on having to have this thing happen in the domain of its possible solution, hypothesis
you know we we caught the the longest running study of human development, the grant study at harvard starting a class of harvard thirty eight. I think they've been studying this group of people for eighty some years.
and the only thing to living longer, living, healthier and and reporting a life as meaningful is relationships at george valiant, alas,
Project colleges standing on the study has said you want to
Twenty million dollars eighty years, some something it's all about, love full stop so
we we do seek relationships. We have an intrinsic,
need to be related. One of the things we talk about it in the book is at rigidity in ensuring social determination
it's like. We need to be related. We need to have confidence, we need to get better at stuff and we have an inherent sort of need to be curious and an autonomous in in our.
And if you actually reward is for those things are from its goes down. You can mechanics intrinsic thing, extrinsically rewarded, so yeah. I think work is a place to find that, but also
I think we are also trying to rebuild other things in our culture. Spiritual traditions, churches right like that
but just getting together and meet up some things. You know that
the best possible version of social media is about connection. It doesn't play out that way and in a positive all the time. So I think I think work can be that place, but I think you're still, if you want community nowadays, you kind of have to build it yourself, or at least catalyzing,
self because it isn't is available. That used to be and get clear whether looks so you brought up the meaning question and one of the young, the clock
Dysfunctional beliefs is gosh, you know, you know its money or meaning which way to go. I mean students, ask. Is this all the time you know me? I'm a really drawn to go. Do to save the world, then butter, but I'm pretty
You can't think anything you want to go, make some money on wall street and I'm really torn. I get have them both. You know.
and we go look. That's another false dichotomy
brain loves dichotomy and turn them into teeter. Totters binary truce like a meaning, goes up. Money goes down when it goes up, meaning goes down. Work life does the same kind of foolish,
and we go look. You know best. What a blow up a bad idea is get away from that dichotomy.
and also release
if I'm not being paid for it? It doesn't count
We talk of the vocational lifestyle where I'm paid for my purposeful thing in the application of lifestyle. One pay for one thing, nobly done doesn't mean its april.
and some of that other heart stuff for sole stuff is elsewhere concession
which has been most human beings, have done to the history of humankind and look think about what
you're making me which are actually doing so. One of our referendums is look. You know we're all makers, we talk about makers. Does that make respects you so
making sign read hanging from that being it's today and we, but
make more than one kind of thing: you're hey. What do you make Jonathan? Well, you make ideas, and you know that to make some money right, there's a famous
talks, but will you make
and so we say there or three kinds of things. All of us make you know
make economic outcomes, probably in the market economy. With its for proper non providence. We make some money
and then, when we also make an,
act in the world for this purpose. Well, the social impact world in no time
the things in terms of making an impact in then
creativity, side. We all have ways of expressing ourselves are taking our creativity in expressing it in a variety of forms and thus making a form of expression. So we can
with a thing called the maker mix. We all have some mix of money or production, making impact, making an expression making
how to think about for bill. I mean how do we think about? Well, you know again, you don't you
what said, let's assume you one
When we look at hundreds and hundreds and thousands of ice plans that people doing from,
but everybody has, I wish my job was a little more creative or wish. I had this thing I used to do that. I like to do that. I don't do any it's like okay. Well,
you're, just more plato and your undervaluing the thing that matters, and so when you say I got this mix, I'm not doing enough expression and papers
but you might not want to do your art on the markets terms
might be a really good reason not to do expression for money
keep the money in the money category the impact in the impact category money I gotta work, it's good is fine impact,
coach that anyway, a soccer team and I teach those girls about team work and showing up for each other and practicing. Because that's what I think you know
simpler, that's my impact!
you know, and then I go to an open, might not gonna do by poetry whatever so
you separated. The only time you get unhappy is one
get paid in the wrong dollars for the wrong thing
dollars for expression. I went on impact for them
number one version
people who come to our midlife seminar, iron razor him and I share their unhappy- tends to be lawyers.
And and when recovering lawyers is a relief as as Elaine's electrode array yeah, and when you you know, and when you get into it it's like well, I went into the law because I wanted to have impact. I wanted to help truth and I'm going to fight for truth and justice. I wanted to be. You know at the supreme court,
saying this was not right
Instead, I am writing contracts for exxon. You now to build
it's just that I'm getting paid a lot of money,
but I wanted to get paid an impact.
So whenever you have a whenever its cross like that, you experienced an incoherent life
I thought I was gonna do this, but I got this instead and then something something breaks. So we talk a lot about the coherent life is when what you do.
Then what you believe and who you are kind of
comes together as one single story and that's worth trying to help people get to that
that story and as it is a tricky butter with its people,
you haven't done it. I don't really understand it's really good news, which is where the magic unit opportunity people
in fact he lives. I don't spend any time at all. I mean I'm assuming so much more time at work than I do coaching literally or what have you and they haven't been doing that yet
It has nothing to do with time.
It's amazing how small and amount of
ultimate thing can incredibly change the expense.
It's like spice and food, you know just add a little bit of criminals, all different,
so, for instance, for me right now
in this either be outside getting outside working inside work example: world briefly, asset work for me
so bill. Actually, you know didn't quite major in physics and didn't major in actually fine art, because he was too chicken because his dad, the engineer was going to say what are you doing that for now and so imagine, design was, is commercial art, but now he's get back
to becoming a really fine artists, ITALY, developing isn't in my wife, is now developing her art. After years of things, I take salesperson
and she's getting some surrounded by artists and piecemeal
and it's so can you know what I want to do in order to so I'm gonna go to start learning how to make bad lawn art and
but in the garage with welding torch and so I've just signed up for well last night, I want my second welding glass.
So I spent tours week in welding class
it has been thirty years. We can sell this book and
but its huge has I've got this little welding thing going on, are gonna burn, write her enjoy the and it's it's a big part of my life now so just a little tiny thing outside work has changed. Everything goes on water run being a future babylon or student. Then one of my clients, who is in a call center actually in our part of her life that wasn't happening much as the iter personal thing. It turns out everybody loved her,
interview or for new employees,
because she was so good at getting to the heart of the storage people really quickly and long story short. She ends up in Heaven
spare cups of coffee with people after they get havoc. I liked interview with you. Can I talk to you after I joined the company shriek and china has become a self unnoted volunteer coach to people too,
with their career she comes in, has coffee of people in those countries.
Does a gothic is not perfect job description, then it gets so popular. Their bosses keep doing that.
two hours offer we to go to that instead, so what she did, she took this meaning making thing which has invested people's lives.
and made it a aside, gig aside hustle in the job in on the
on the premises and
huge cousin to spend all dating
if the customer is on the phone, which is fine, but I really want to invest directly in somebody I see regularly. So I do this
The coaching thing on the side for about half an hour week and it's you
so a little because olonnois. So if it's another time
This is all my curiosity. When you look at the maker mix might not regard the the three ingredients right got money. We ve got me impact right that expression right
If it's not a time issue right, why
everybody wants to optimize for all three what's
I think one of the advantages of making it a maker mix like a mixer board, like you know, if you're, if you're mixing sound for a song,
you know you could have all the base, all the trouble and all you could have it at full volume all the time, but that doesn't that's actually not a very good song right, because you can't hear tips to make money there times
you're like when you might want to dial expression or dollop impact,
and when I was running my consulting firm and make lots of money and a little bit of impact for the for the clients, but they weren't. My idea is that when the client's idea so expression was zero
david offered me this job at a healthy, fifty percent less than I was making
I bowed down the money up. The impact felt pretty good, so I think it's just it just it's me
in it's matching where you are in life and notice? Oliver of things are, you are here as a big sign over the studio, the other side of campus. You are
if the students are here you're here now, this is reality. What do you see you observe and sometimes the tools to help you tease out some things you want to go to somebody's life allows you to go with a two fer or three. For that
of course up, and so, if you, even if we fight design and immensely beautiful powerpoint slide right, my letter
the end is talking about something. This transformative to the people who can be watching it, and I'm really well,
Can money with an impact was immense, leave creative expression of sympathy.
Before you can actually max out europe your picture board that way, but this
substantially doktor demand of life that you can get three four as every day are best
a better situation, that's just a good day, and you know it's like a man by the way,
This is all I really when we were creative walkin interest.
Every day and blank canvas on this and on the easel, and it's just laughing at you,
Without that you got nothing dude like a guy. No idea is right, haven't been done before come on in here and I'll eat you up. So this notion that we all want to have a creative life. Trust me it's harder than you,
yet I made, but I want to push back a little bit because you're, so
read that you can have these moments or seasons or like things where.
everything is at right, so
and not that you should expect that to always happened right, but if it
if it is not a time constraint right
is the resource that is limited.
that does not allow us to be their more regularly because
If I could make gobs have money habit
lobo impact and feel fully express every
when I open my eyes and go out into the world
Why would I do not want to do that? Doesn't I get the analogy sure and equalize erna being flattening just sounds like noise
My then my visualization minors, but I think that would be pretty awesome natural. So what's what what's? The matter?
with resource what? Why is that not true? And what's the bandwidth resource that doesn't make that possible for more than a short amount of time?
If there's one thing that we just trotted design our tool, so you can use them in ways that work for you and you can push all the sliders up on your maker mixbook. The arm so that'd be fine.
I think what we're trying to do is we were really anti. Should we
We work really hard that we want should on you and we don't recommend. You should understand
the as much as possible, so the I I notice them I'm having a react, I'm pushing back and going to. I really don't want people to walk away thinking. They should be able to or go for having all three sliders of money
an expression maxed up
They should have a mixed that works for that part of the heads of the way you think about it, and so, if you
about I'm getting as much expression
as I want, and that's a one hundred will bet. That's fine. You could have one hundred one hundred one hundred, whoever you want escort, but I think
bandwidth issue has to do with
Compromise is ok.
Doling out a limited resource of my energy or my attention. Maybe it's not the same as my time.
Still says you know, and we could possibly be more expressive. Yes, I could of my asking that I myself at this point my life, not really.
I really do not want to maximize, so I think I think, owing to give people
listen to not have to maximize more distant bear an end quickly, a radical you could totally after right and until we agree with the shed side of things and as I think, we're saying the same thing- we're just framing it differently, your framing when a wonderful to, but
right after you by the book. You can remove it anywhere. You want it's funny. Things went when I think about it. You might my brain says this: is a resource efficient round?
recorded and but it goes back to something we had originally its. We can't make,
you're more time, but it's what you pay.
Pension too, is in fact a reality. So it's what you put your energy literate, like
I pay attention to this. My brain is consuming olive, its it's electrical.
energy on paying attention to writing a book or being
blogger, or or or that's why
something that's a high energy activity. This only two hours a week can completely transformed its weak by them.
should all learn d. Well, because as soon as you realize that you can melt metals
few? Is it together and new shaped? You are like a god
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So it's about what you pay attention to and where you put your energy
And it's also about learning, not put energy and thinks that it's just a waste of time and remember,
I don't make a mixture just three things
but you could have more max, but what about what not taken care of your aging mama? What about your relationship? But what about the kids?
yeah, I'm working when our students and we have
the five you're planning a ten year plan right. Some of them will put a dog on the plan, maybe maybe I could take care of a dog I dunno, maybe, but they never put kids or family because they aren't in that stage yet, but it shouldn't you want you want to. You want to change your reality. Have a child
and then you realize this working not as important
It's not as important as raising this traffic, so
we change change ourselves and change.
seasons were in our lives, different things become import and that's appropriate
and it took us. We have three kids, it took us
It took a bunch of years to realize. Oh, this has got got going to be like me and Cynthia just hanging out together. This has something to do with these three kids, who are running around then
changed our Y and then we, you know blah blah and now they're all gone and now we're having to figure out like do we even know each
there anymore and how are we going to? How are we gonna work that out? So as you progress through the seasons, it's nice to have some tools to observe. Where am I at now, because things are things are
and getting that today. What you said also earlier is it to me? I
One of the big fears that that I have about somebody out you try it.
push all to eleven at times. Is them
making choices about how to get there that sales,
I am only going to say yes to this if it will allow me thrash all three higher at this time by John the contest,
expression if you're a painter right. You know that you will possibly be asking. What is the thing that I need to paint that we will optimized
any simultaneously may was right. It will destroy our sharing, earns going to express yourself. So it's I can do so much. One is
really interesting new ones and dynamic interplay between.
And is one particular tool called the maker mixing the images literally, you no sound word what we want.
the primary take. Always it's yours, sound! It's your finger
your sliders, you can move them around your saw, you know we move one, the others don't jump automatic. You literally have control over this thing and you could mix it differently and what would that look like? It is about the
sitting work? You know every single toolbar is about
out a way of turning your
agency into action that has an out yet
maker mix is a really interesting tool in process to work with
we kind of been around without naming the tool? This is. The impact is impact
that map tommy a bit more about like where this comes from, and this right that
just the base of the pepper, is primarily an insight tool. It's not one of them was like, oh god, it changed my life socially, oh now I see that's kind of what we're looking for and the impact map
that came out of office hours,
we found over and over again in office hours. People were groaning around a question they couldn't. Quite I'm not sure this is really, I think, I'm in the wrong place, so it doesn't feel quite
writers, and so on. You hear that a lot has happened, a groan eve, sort of get tuberculosis jobs. Ok, but I don't think I'm happy, you know what I mean I hadn't when we distilled it down what it was is it was impact? Am I making an
packed in the world. The way I meant to, and if this isn't the place,
so people who has a place where the impact that I'm supposed to be making those occurring.
Said were and what impact this was to be happening if you're in the wrong impact plates.
So we really now that we would have an impact on. We really dont know exactly what we mean by that.
and so what we did is we unpack that little bit
and said? Well, you know, let's look at two aspects of impact where and what,
so the impact on the horizontal access looks at what kind of these are very qualitative
backed you're having you having a remediation impact, you know I'm getting rid of bad things were fixing broken things
I'm having a generative impact, I'm doing new things, I'm working on autonomous car stuff. We never have I'm bringing the new thing to the party or I'm having a support impact. I'm running the world friday is trash day in my town and the trash got picked up and it's really important that they keep picking up the trash every week that keeps the world running in a in a not particularly, you know biology.
we scary went, and so I can either be. You know a new generation kind of person. I can be a support and operations person, I can be a fix or immediate and a person and there's a qualitative. We really different than my unequally, wonderful, any government that- and they are good examples of all kinds, and where is my point of impacts in my point impact, particularly
to people with one we're having it
The three way conversations have a very small group right now. My point of impact right now. If, if these people weren't watching- and you weren't, recording you just the three of us as a small group or is it one to one? Is it
People is it my department, you know, is it sixteen hundred undergrad at Stanford is
everybody north America. Is it the malaria project manager at the gates, foundation, everybody on planet earth who might be infected by malaria so
my point of impact or in parliament
my nature of impact locates me and
that has a different feel antics.
of impact map teaches people to locate where they are impact wise
which is role basis, Alec, here's bill, here's bilbil teacher, here's bilby, the artist
this bill. The author of this you're different rules in the world.
They tell you some things and you start figuring out where's that I want to be, as is the right place for me, now go on to be someplace else, so the impact matter where to start thinking about
where I want. My impact
up on the gates, malaria programme manager, I'm up at the global level, I'm trying to solve problems. I never had a net.
Anybody in africa I'd never meet anyone with malaria, but I believe that impact happens because I create this opportunity and the rest of the world executes
and I'm ok with reading policy, but that won't work. If I really need to be on the ground in african handing out. That's it, I'm, the kind of person needs to see the people I'm helping. My impact will have to be here, it's not better or worse. It is different. I'm a brain surgeon, one brain at a time
the issue is that of that by that in a quadrant, that's the lower
Quite out of everybody thinks is a bad one know if it's your brain,
and he fixes it
is you're really happy so and and
Sometimes the brain surgeon then becomes head of surgery and then he's analysts job any more than that
one thing that I wouldn't budgets, not brain macromedia. The budget have been so a lot of.
When people map the jobs they ve had and jobs, they are thinking about. Having from there, I suppose they go. Oh, I see the patterns when a guy.
too high, and I was connection with the people and helping it doesn't work for me or when I get stuck in
then the day to day stuff and I'm not working at the system's level. It doesn't work for me
and then they have a that and its. It is actually
sometimes a really big one like that is why this jobs there's nothing wrong with the job. It's just the wrong location in the wrong,
in my constituency and then they re design and an issue. Perhaps I mean it's no good or bad place and there's no one place for you. You could be all over the map different points in your life at different times. It just experiences differently.
The first woman helping invent this thing had
we used an e nine one, one dispatcher at a fire department and then
the becoming you know a well this policy developer, which is your life goal, and she like
a barrister, better cause. She got to see your face to face, so we
finding a way to make sure this, but I do want to do that for living. I think I wanna go to this policy thing to make wellness part of the public health world.
The change in the world I want to make, but I've got to make sure I get some face to face talk to. If I just do the job they were, they asked me to do it, I'm going to I'm going
I have- and I guess and and this requires all the way back to day what you brought up earlier about.
Really for generations, work being constructed in this very high arc of all young linear wayward sake. You started like
one level as the doer and then the place that you should
actually spike should expire too. You should be them
integer and then hired higher, which pose you further and further away from that essence, you know, but if the thing that fills you more than anything else is being
on that fundamental level. Here you have more power,
we're control, more money and your more miserable, with every step that you up the ladder and trying to figure out. Why.
Which I I it also brings up something with from your first but which I think is a really important distinction
be able to make and this idea of gravity problem,
which, which is,
assuming the without really understanding like what what is
the fundamental nature of the problem that you're trying to solve, and is it in fact solvable and if it is what they do and if it's not, what do they do not do?
yes, there are two classes of problems that people get stuck on all the time.
and unless they re framed the way they think about the problem. They will stay stuck for ever and a gravity problem is a problem. You can
change gravity comes from me. The cyclist- and you know I didn't get the freshman fifteen,
pounds when I was a freshman, but I did get that turn sixty twenty pounds. I gotta turn sixty toilet
which has slowed my bike down, I'm five of my bike, autobahn slower after again,
and so I went to bill's epidemic as a real pro gravity of the hills are, are so much worse than they used to be? I the gravity is not working, could you fix it? For me, and bill said no, I can't fix
gravity it's not. Our problem is a reality. So a lot of people's problem isn't a movable thing and too
to accept that gravity problem is just
problem, it's a circumstance.
it was not actionable, not a problem. It's a certain
as you can do, is accept it, and now I could lose weight. You know by powered by
get more gears their lot right on the flats,
Things you can do that aren't fixed gravity,
and an anchor problems or a different version, which is why
you in bed- and we see this particular workplace you in there.
the answer in your question, so the class
How do I get to a promotion because there's a big company? I've worked with where everybody's stuck between level seven and eight. We are massively oversupplied in sevens. We don't need any more aids and so the attrition waiting line but get to the next eight promotion. Opportunity is really long lot of grumpy people. It is how do I, how do I become an eight that wasn't an acre property
The problem has assumed open it. If I
have been eight? I dont want to solve this problem. I'm not happy I'm
and so once you refrain you go where women is. Is it? Is it just?
eight that I want, which is kind of weird and silly,
or is it that I want more influence, or I want to do more work on a policy setting around here money? I won ambush more money. I want to work on a different team
there's a lot of there's a lot of sideways and redesign remodel truth. My boss is wrong yet prevent us right. So so
There are it's the young
I want to go sailing every weekend, but I can't afford to sell, but how do I buy a sailboat right? Alright, when yours,
like. I wanna have a workshop, just like my dad did, but my garage to small. How do I get a bigger garage like building?
it's not the problem,
the problem is a bit- you ve created a solution, you want that, you can have
inside the problem and perfect, causing you could say stuck forever. I mean
If, because no people that you are here, you're really
but you know people who have been stuck on the same problem for a long time. You got a copy and they've
but their baasa there, each away or there's. If something is not right and it's just not fair
and you should the thing they can't have this built into. How do I have a thing? I can't have that's the question.
There's a person you say attached to the cantons of its having you know and so, which has never never your boss, rejoin association, probably wanted for american workers would forego their next raise. If you would fire there bostra them, I will pay you to give that's not a great statistic.
I have a sad thing- is I'm willing to bear even intuition, but our highly confident that
As you know, my client some highly opinionated, but the good news is downright so the is that are better at least fifty. If not eight percent of those bosses, people would pay you to fire, are due
you don't have to be a good boss and trying to find a way to make it happen,
and a mentor you're stuck with you or stuck with they answered the same survey about thereby right
and he answered the same survey.
her. Almost everything right me on that. It's always somebody else. So
I favour a view of the book, the personal reference, but almost versus what was their guy said.
Clearly, the authors respect the autonomy of the reader because they're not telling us what to do the telling us how to figure out
We're in the how business other weapons that you're the pro or not
and a lot of it comes down to I mean I keep circling back to the word that keeps spinning in my head is discernment and clarity. It's like getting past delusion getting past the illusion of illusions. You know it. How can I see whatever the circumstances most clearly because, right now, I can't make a decision until I actually understand more clearly what it is that I think I'm deciding about what is the? What is the truest nature of my circumstance?
how do we get there? How do I strip away this thing? What's stopping me from being there and then once you're there, and she was like a lot of the tools in the process you guys have developed is about that.
when you get to that place where you can actually start to see, maybe for the first time
truth or less what's going on, little teacher is actually works. Well, what's going on, I feel like so many of the decisions actually become fairly,
I made you stand on the stage europe, but it is kind of
getting to notice that
Three thousand years of wisdom, tradition of god, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change are all suffering is related to
to the reality. That is an illusion. I mean
we're just where, based by based back in neuroscience and and research,
but people of any kind of asking these questions for a very long time. Very modestly were
a few new ideas about how you it approach it, but it is about seeing what actually there now mature clinging to are hoping is there
and then just dealing with it in a way that makes you the agent in your life?
design. Thinking is very pro reality right,
It may seem like so it's it's a lot.
This is about stripping away and then you're ready, rebelled.
If, even though we're tripping way that almost sounds like I'm doing something wrong, I mean it is a it's a dead, neutral position like it's just what's going on with this, the the big you are here sign over by the grad loft,
is all about. I mean the coup
stuff happens in reality. That's what you design doesn't work anywhere, but the real world, it's just your perpetually prototyping. Your way through is a true
you just keep it with. Curiosity like right is. Is that not even like? Is this true but more like
this is a low interest rate, not having. I wonder, what's going on in the world with these immediately there we'll do the data of a whole chapter on being overwhelmed, there's a whole chapter on organizational politics with areas of politics chapter. Do
in a design borg
the apathy step and mean that the point of having
politics to after so you can look what's going on go! Oh
Now I understand another to understand, understand is actually going on and framed away to be apathetic with the situation now have.
Does didn't seem actually act within. It is perfect,
hearing the evil, which is when people get it's just I do. I could start up with three founders.
that has more politics in it, then apple ever get right.
It's just the way people are, and once you understand how people exchange power, influence and authority you go up. This is
completely understandable and now I can design my way into it, and I can play the game or not play the game, but I'm not
Sitting here wondering why what is happening, and I don't get it right- that must be politics, so I want to be respectful of time here also because I want to give that
but each answer, as requested in wandering writing down crush about she's ready numbers. You already know questions before we do that, because we are recording is excellent. I always end every podcast.
well, I'm gonna ask you my closing question and then we will role without
We are also include people here. So at the end, I that the questioner was off. Robin davy already entered this once before I'm curious over the last four years. The answer may have evolved a little bit, but is, if I offer up there,
to live a good life? Like comes up, I had an insight in the less reviewing richer,
What is this really all about? Thinking about the phrase bill mentioned earlier?
george valley of the last project manager. The grant report summarize this whole thing, like you know, if you really want to have a life, is about its love. Full stop.
And weed out explicitly talk about love a lot in the book, but I think
What is really about for me is
trying to give people
eggs on their love.
The short version of designing a life is, in ten words, get curious
two people try stuff tell your story. It starts a gig,
it's curiosity is huge. Humans knew it many times this interview already for designers and what's curious about curious, is an r priori affection for the world that says that might be interest.
Thing, and maybe that which animates me could connect to its estimating it, and these animations can get together synergistic early and we can be more alive. We targets this you're sparked
a likeness, and I
you think curiosity is a particularly active form of love. Expressing
so at the end of the day, what are really trying to do here is give your love legs.
Well. Picasso said I spent forty years learning how to draw like a child again, because
and where it children. We are just full of curiosity and we haven't had teaches you told us we
We can say we can dance, we can write or whatever, so we still believe work the work, creative people, so I think again, being the existential atheist honestly
can commenced question, there's only one question philosophy: why not suicide
so, a good life is getting up every day and having a reason to keep going good life is having that curiosity, it
and love of the were all right that keeps you going well, maybe one more day with specific touched. It puts try this again and see how it comes out because there's,
For me, no organizing principle other than my desire to see what happens
and so for me like veracity and then the opposite,
drastic for me by the way is boring when
left that job? It was because I was bored and because there
nothing left in that organization. That would make it interesting, at least for me. So I think you
life, without boredom
and getting up every day and saying I
really good reason. You know for whatever it's going to happen like coming here today to do this interview with you. Thank you. So
I open it up to the audience. We have a mite that we're going to send around. Thank you bill and dave. This is fabulous. I had the privilege of attending one of your studio's Ellen kelly university of san francisco and dave. Can you repeat your ten words? I gotta get curious, try stuff out of this. The etymology of that was. We were about to go on to a seven minute interview at four in the morning with
ray dogs and cats watching on the early morning, new show in toronto, canada four years ago,
his system, bruiser grabs, grabbed me behind the camera, goes hate or running behind. We need the book and a sentence
Do you mean to say you know where we're stanford instructors, we're not one that I am particular not renowned for short answers and any said. Well then you're off the air and is to be meant as a marketing. I can do tagline and so then do it came out for sentences, but through ten words.
get curious. Talk to people.
Try stuff tell your story.
tell your story is putting itself in the world with the intention of from your curiosity,
which leads to another curiosity and you meet new people, and
it's a virtuous cycle. We call that the generative virtuous cycle and repeat until engaged when you're engaged stop keep doing that for awhile. That's called career planning, other questions, ergo, hey
I'm just wondering in your research when you looked at career design, what were some of the generational differences that you found in how people should approaches eyeing their careers for different places,
different ages coming from different backgrounds are mature by MR. We came across that so much as
Different generations have different expectations.
I'm noticing added
the agenda are a kind of the students have now and their very
then the millennials in one might, above all in a wanna, do good things. One have for peace in the world. One change the world
But remember if you are a twenty, if you're, eighteen or nineteen or twenty
If you are ten eleven or twelve in two thousand and eight when we had the great depression, so I actually think gen z's are depression. Babies.
they really want to change the world, but they really want to make sure that they got a job and that they don't run into that thing. That happened a mom and dad. You know when everybody, when the novel
We ve got the real, so I know
Judge them are packed to go to japan and the millennials were more idealistic, but still, I think, wonderfully action oriented
The generation before that was my favorite
just wanted to all get jobs in on wall street.
It was a very the me generation was very materialistic.
Frank is now there are forty they're coming seminars going. Please help me, my leg is empty, so I think it was more on expectations, but
expect your job to be more meaningful. Then we have to find a way to design into something it is meaningful and even in that entry level, job where you just doing spreadsheets for the boss
we ve got to figure out why but climate,
What am I learning house is changing as us
The organization get somewhere.
but it's interesting. We were talking to the chief learning officer at deloitte and they know they are a pyramid of you, know, partners and junior partners and senior associates,
cause- is all those levels
and they were good. Three four thousand students every year was happening as they get to about level two or three, and then they look at the partners life and they say that seems miserable and there are leaving
So they have partners and they have people
but they have no one in the middle because they have an articulated. Why? Why would I want that job?
gimme a genuine, when I met your browser that in a very passed like I was lawyer and one
reasons iraqi and at last not fast I've. It's a very, very loud multiple. Why was that?
I actually I I was as fairly early. I started out kind of wearing the white hat working for a big federal agency like investigating you're, doing cool stuff and they went to a giant firm and
used to be like two generations before
My grandfather like there was a certain erect vacations, and this is what life looked like when you write made it. You know, but
Looking at the lives of the people who had quote made it in this big firm, I was working for them
noble people who are working hard, made them really enjoying what they were doing, but it wasn't the life that I wanted to let written and
came very clear and in europe
even if I actually wanted to get right. Yet there was a path, but it also, I just
We want that. So why would I give up your choice of either question
indeed, thank you so much. I enjoyed your talk and I've enjoyed your first book and have attended one of your workshops.
I really appreciate the than mindset around curiosity and being curious
of the world around you in your new book.
You focus on curiosity about self, like self awareness, and I am thinking in particular about stage for when you talk about reinventing yourself.
Career, and that I think, takes a lot of personal insight right for a person to to move forward. So just curious about the new book and whether you address self awareness.
Yet with the inner city, there was a long article on the first book done in mindfulness magazine and the managing editor. Mindful his magazine actually came and sad and actually on the creative live video training course. He is actually one of the people on the camera
I came and interviewed us and the first thing he says, or clearly I mean it's obvious. The book was centered in mindfulness, that's really where you guys are coming from it's all about that and we kind of go. If you want to believe that true, that's great
whatever worse, waited and and so we're support above the at you know, I mean a and practices practices, but in terms of self discovery
we don't go away far down that road. We claim a huge competency there, you don't. I spend a couple of
who weeks a year at a retreat with a bunch of monks up against the hill that comes in a without. I have those conversations per se sell out. I don't over promise that were the next month.
two point: o center of the universe
of discovery thing. What we do say is this: where the talk to people
Your curiosity get you there's something going on there. If you go into the
talk to people and try something thing we're to do is the fires that want to burn more brightly will grab that oxygen and flare up the ones that are that interesting, won't, and so this
discovery. Part terms,
to the learning and the reason tell the story
formerly added to the four steps is in order to have something to say you have to
left on the experiences you have. My curiosity checking this conversations. Conversation took me. These experiences,
did. I notice what
I learned about the world about be about. What's going on so
I'm standing in line to get my sandwich at subway and I'm going to tell my story. My story isn't hey. I stayed up all night binge watching game of thrones again last night. How about you?
it's not that interesting. It's supposed to show what I notice this week. So there's just yesterday, twelve, but what I noticed was you know our b do become generative cycle. I'm not really doing that very well. I notice that, if you're sort of thinking about doing to play with that, that's telling my story in a generative way there
choirs self knowledge, so we move people that direction. We don't try to over problems
You know from the workshop that there's them design thinking thing, but that wasn't enough to predict a sense. We have is discovering support layer, internet layers, practices,
so innocent are meant a when most people think about self discovery they do think about.
and I'm going away, maybe journaling or been quiet or doing some kind of a process where they
cover about themselves, something that's true get rid of that of the ego, something else, but it's also pressing.
self discovery is a embodied practice, its
this going in talking to people and seeing which fire gets the most oxygen, because we're not just thinking.
not ourselves, just sitting quietly in thinking about ourselves can help organise some things. But the felt expert
of the world and have my empathy for the world with amply for myself. That may be the practice of maintenance.
And now what is the world just because I want to do something doesn't mean the world wants or needs it. So I need empathy for the world too, and our our discovery processes in the world. It's radical collaboration with the world. So
And that's not to say that
sitting quietly and trying to understand, because we live noisy lives and we live in busy times. We don't think of the seventh day, reflection, borrowing in part from the wisdom, tradition of sabbath and teach people how to do a reflection, the two
I was being savouring an insight, so we go into that in some detail
without another word about the mindfulness shelf, other budgets, locations.
I saw everything you're talking about an refrain. I'm thinking pact.
applications and I'm just thinking with the relationship you guys have. What are some
challenges you ran into writing a book together, and how did you work around those
fourth dimension near we rubbing this remedy researchers,
the way we re together as we apply the whole thing
we make a proposal, and hopefully the publisher said yes, I suggest in this case
and then we don't get a chance to work together as much as we used to so we're. Basically, like I'm gonna write. Tat was once three seven five and he's gonna write near two, four, six, eight or whatever it is,
We we so swat back and forth and show each other what we're doing
and then a professional wrote a laura makes it sound like we don't. We have a lottery that they'll be writer, who kind of going lose it altogether for us to make sure the grammar works.
I don't think there's not a lot of controversy in that process. I miss
when we get together and we can brainstorm, it's kind of a magical like we can follow. Whiteboard real events and it's really fun.
but the writing part. I mean writing is a sort of solitary activity. You go off to a dark room and you and you write the whole thing, because fifty five thousand words may be a little more this when setting sixty five thousand, and I wrote fifty and threw away thirty
now, where were we happily haven't, had much conflict and we're really good at resolving or real? So that's that's if you have that to your kind of good guy,
Things have a long way in our buildings
refrain right now.
of the universities asked him to stay longer. One are you just keep working fault, I'm a little longer bill, I'm sure he's an oppressed
reframing why he doesn't want to change his life
in that gets in the way. Some things we are individual lives in our
a grandkids and that causes all kinds of trouble.
things come up and we
we have to adapt to that kind of stuff, but we mostly adapt to outside changes, not so much such injuries. One more maybe
thanks. So much for the talk, I really appreciate. I'm curious as to whether you have any advice for procrastination. I noticed
a desire to be curious and talk to people and then I'll go ahead and watched a season of game, a thrones and just be like I'll get to a later and so wearing. If you have any thoughts on that, I love
business, I'm really good at it.
there's a question
in the book that often comes after me. It's like both that's great. How does that serve you? How does it serve you to not do the things you say you want to do and spend time doing things that you really know at the end of the day. Don't
our values, so it again it's about. Where do you, where you putting your attention and in an and there's a reason, you're not doing
nothing. You wanna do most of the time. It's it's some kind of fear or it's scary. Europe, too
to do so in our met him. Our method in the method of all behavior change. Scientists who say this stuff is
at the bar really low get off the couch. Stop turn you can turn off the net.
Automatically starts the next thing featured turn it off, because it's not healthy for you to tell me for netflix put aside for you,
get some accountability, get some accountability. It tell a friend, you're gonna. Do this thing set a really clear objective that simple that you can actually get done in a day or something and build your way?
built, build your confidence that you can do the things you want to do and soon
it started in something starts happening like eight. I have is released in compensation or this person cup communes and withdrew. It was to get together,
at energy. Will pull you out of your procrastination,
It's very hard to change by yourself. What a bit summits we give students is to go talk to people. You have to go talk to a stranger
people love to find reasons not to do that, and so what we found was we would put an accountability system and an rapidly light. One.
which is get a body, and
We want you to have made one call to a stranger by a week from today,
the classes on thursday by tuesday before next thursday.
You two college other have a cup of coffee and huge or accountability. Question has gone
it really penetrating question political, because you know what I mean is: did you make the call yet and
in that sense not like what did it work and have you didn't write and show me either
skins. You know nothing anywhere near that provocative
what people find it is. We have about a fifty percent increase in follow through
simply knowing that I'm gonna get asked the question, and I really do I know I don't ashraf and have nothing to say
give yourself a chance at winning? If you're the only person holding your accountable to your discipline, your chance of success is really love
you're, an amazingly discipline person,
you're not cause you procrastinate
I'll just now, and also a really fascinating frame, and I found super helpful ism gretchen
having came up with her for tendencies which is about how we meet our own expectations. Gretel
an old friend of mine and she read Gary Kasparov. Why we're fat ambitiously she closed the last page and she has beaten carb since and properly right.
like your a freak. Has it and she's like
Why would I like what it's? What you do because
she's, a particular type where she just like if it makes sense to her done,
External accountability is John and I found her.
Just google it together for tendencies because
It puts its really helpful in understanding what internal and external structures are appropriate for you to create in order to meet your expectations. I'm a question. So am I
and the reason I'm a hundred percent sure about that, because I took her assessment once I got questioner
I congratulate said we need to have coffee.
I sat down with rapture and yet all to my wife- and I said I don't know if I am just like we're here-.
thanks so much for coming today, bill thanks for coming out with the comprehend the thank you so much for listening, and thanks also to our fantastic sponsors who helped make this show possible. You can check them out in the links we have included in today's show notes and while you're at it, if you've ever asked yourself, what shall I do with my life? We have created a really cool online assessment that will help you discover the source code for the work that you're here to do. You can find it at spark: a type dot com, that's s, p, a r K, e t, Y p e dot com or just click, the link in the show notes, and, of course, if you haven't already done so be sure to click on the subscribe button in your listening app. So you never miss an episode and then share share the love. If there's something that you've heard in this episode, that you would love to turn into a conversation, share it with people and have that conversation, because when ideas become conversations that lead to action, that's when real change takes hold, see you next time.
Transcript generated on 2023-06-23.