Glennon Doyle is the author of New York Times bestselling memoirs Love Warrior and Carry On, Warrior, and the powerful new book, Untamed. An activist and voice for social change, she is also the founder and president of Together Rising, an all-women led nonprofit organization that has revolutionized grassroots philanthropy – raising over $20 Million for women, families and children in crisis.
Glennon originally appeared on the show in 2016, exploring her feelings about faith, family, public and private, art and service, love and leading. Glennon's wife, soccer legend and activist, Abby Wambach, also appeared on the show last year where we explored her powerful journey, along with many of the deeper motivations, struggles, moments of awakening, defining stories and so much more.
You can find Glennon Doyle at: Website | Instagram
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Like yesterday is granting Doyle, author activist, wife, mom and founder of grass roots philanthropic movement and organization, together rising, so glinda was first in our studio a little.
Three years ago, when her book love warrior launched and towards the end of that conversation, she shared something tat would learn later was completely unplanned. The marriage that she had written about, love warrior had come to an end and what she shared in the studio was that she was in a new relationship, one that she had planned to keep private as she serve navigated, its becoming and over time,
we would learn that Glenn. It had fallen in love with soccer legend, an amazing human abbe, warm back. They would eventually get married and learn alongside linens ex craig had a really redefine family anymore,
spans of inclusive and dynamic way.
an abbe shared her experience of this when she sat down with me in the studio last year. In today's conversation with the relief.
Have glens beautiful and moving new memoir untamed,
we learn more of the full story, the hard parts,
profound awakenings, the stories the reframes
and the sense of liberation that comes when you see
living into the expectations of others and stepping
deeper, more intrinsic truth.
Is it easy now and linen? She makes that clear,
still clear and our conversation, but is it powerful, is invaluable and ultimately necessary to live the life you want to live?
undoubtedly so so, excited to introduce and share this wide, ranging cheap and resident conversation with you? I'm Jonathan fields- and this is a good life project
How does a I even work where it is creativity, come from? What's the secret to living longer, ted radio, our explores the biggest questions with some of the world's greatest thinkers? They will surprise challenge and even change you listen to and be ours ted radio. Our whatever you get your past.
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We were just talking before we stepped into the room. There's this
kind of interesting, so relationship between the eu and all her life last you're hanging earnestly, I feel like so much- has changed in you
we were out in the world. It will cause his colleague at three and a half years ago, something like that and
If you came in your touring for love, warrior
a part of your story that was public
and then towards the end of our conversation with
Are you talking about? Ok? So
in others, actually another relationship and shared not planned?
Instead, there is another relationship that you read, but you didn't want to go any further, heightened it's kind of mine from that point forward and then
Last year, I guess about a year ago,
I became an end
we somehow ended up talking about that momentarily and she was like, and she said you now. She said
I have listened to them
like small segment over and over and over because it was, it, was eight
Fine, you didn't use my name, but it was the first public acknowledgement that existed in her life and it merits, and it was amazing.
and now we're sitting here today.
Now I remember walking out of this room
after having shared that- and you said something that made me share that have no. You said you just look
full of late or something I don't know. You just said something that made me.
and you know when you're in love and you just dying to share it
dying to, and I felt safe here, and I just remember, walking out of
interview and calling her right away yeah. I did call her right away, and I said, oh, my god.
Just said it. I just said
and he has so much has happened since then. It's amazing when you called her right away after that. What was
jimmy, never what she said here. Oh she was sucks. I just.
So excited I mean we just
We had a share in layers because because so many other people were involved in our and children and our family
still getting used to things, and you know, when
love is new. I kept thinking of it is like it's just small and growing knows
like a little sapling right now and back then, and
after you share
clean and everyone has their opinions and feelings. It can feel like a storm, and I just remember thinking any day let this.
grow for awhile,
for we invite the storm in I'll bet. You know
Eventually, when we did tell our story publicly poverty.
the amazing people
rhetorical and understanding- and you know it
lots of reminders that people are
a good year
which is really nice when that happens, because it doesn't always happen, while the other stuff happen to you now,
it's just gonna, most
the people were you just have to you really have to decide who you care like whose whose opinions you care about the people whose opinions I cared about more wonderful there,
and there were these- are like multiple layers like you were just saying, because there's the relation,
between you and crack you're, your ex. Now you and Abby you union
You and your extended family and the new republic
it's complicated you know, and to train.
Here for somebody who spends will have ten living in their head, which seems like you do what you suggests that yes, my yeahs aeroplanes to sort of like think about, and we were
Will you tell him at it like? Ok? Is there a way to do this were everybody's days like gets and stays happy river
I mean there's, I think,
I believe that you know
especially ass women, that we are trained.
I believe that what is true and beautiful for us and what we want,
is necessarily bad for our people write that
if we go that what we want.
His desires and what our people, our family, our children need from us are mutually exclusive,
and I just I think
an old idea- and I Don'T-
personally gone through what I have just gone through.
In terms of telling you know, reshape
Our family and dealing with my parents in dealing with all the extended friends in the public eye. Just
really. Dont believe that in the end that there is any such thing is one way liberation. You know, I think,
since you free yourself, the beautiful,
is that, over time you can
free everyone around you to also embrace their true selves
an hour. I've seen up sooner
My family have seen it in craig of siena kids and what does it mean that it was easy?
I mean it was terrible, awful anybody who dealt with a divorce.
road are brutal for kids and it was built.
For my kids, but after all has settled.
I dont think that anybody in my family would say that they could imagine a more beautiful family them
By that I mean it's common
David, messy and busy, but half it.
Having craig, and I look at each other and say how the hell does anyone do this parenting thing with only two parents,
I don't know anymore.
I did kind of have this
Knowing the whole way through that, if I did
things steadily and carefully.
And with as much honour and honesty
Mainly possible that all would shake out in the end that all would feel.
That is, if I did what was termed beautiful for me.
that eventually, that would be what was termed beautiful for my kids and for craig I mean Craig said, gave me a card recent.
And it just shows a birthday card. I think you said thank you for breaking all of our hearts.
I'm guessing that wasn't sort of like an off the shelf course of money. You know he wrote that I run like. Maybe when there's day he wrote,
and you know what he meant was it sucked and it was right for all of us
Abby actually, first brought this up to me and then you wrote about it in a book untamed because
was a so like this complex thing. There is
but where I guess cry
I don't know whether it specific conversation, but he made it clear to turkey,
heads to lake
That is a killer, that an arab abbe share with me. She's, like that was maybe the single greatest gift betty,
had given her and it also.
had been so on the one hand incredibly
Liberating and powerful, but also really hard, absolutely an ego less and is something that you write about.
as craig- has somebody who's in his life now also
Like navigating these feelings back and forth so that everybody feels like they have permission to love within one love and feel the way they want to feel, and you get the the feeling that it is so much work, but is so worth it and is also absolutely not the norm
It's not, and I think
it's. Why one of the themes and untamed which I'm obsessed with lately
Phillip, we touched on a little bit in our first podcast.
This idea of how do we create
communities of human beings that are that have less.
The pact mentality that have less of a.
of a mentality where you toe the line of this group or you're out
I mean that tribal way of thinking we do.
in our families- I mean I don't. I can't tell you how many times I heard you know, the word
and you can do for your kids- is to give them a broken. Emily
that means to divorce that was.
In my growing up my taming? That was like the ultimate failure.
But you know when I stopped a long enough to examine that belief,
was planted in me,
thinking wait. I know a lot of families whose parents are still married who are in their original structure and seem very broken.
Right and I know a lot of families whose original structure has changed and shifted and are
vibrant and whole and loving.
And so I started thinking, wait for me.
The definition of a broken family is any family in which
people inside have to kind of brake themselves into pieces to fit in a whole family
if any family, regardless of structure in which all the people in it
get to come to our family table and bring their whole selves and grow and change and not toe the family line and not fit into some. You know
Is that the family has decided its members must contain
Its themselves to fit in
and still belong right, and so I think,
that, if we can do that and our families, I mean we
or in a place right now in the world where this way
thinking this tribal way of thinking. This
idea that we all have to toe the line of the pack.
Or we will lose the protection of the pack
is why we are where we are right. It's why lake
risk here in a people or give
their integrity to toe the party lines. Its way, people of
We are not speaking up and institutions even when people are getting hurt, it's why employ
is of companies are, allowing you know
World ending practice visits inside their companies, so it's just like
It's the way. It makes sense.
The way we used to survive right, like the evolutionary idea is like you must total
Of the pack, because you need the protection of the pack.
That's how he survived, but it feels like we're in a moment now, where the survival of our families of our nation of our planet.
It's gonna be resisting that urge
it is gonna be to stop telling the line of the pack and actually returns
for humanity and create families and create
communities where people done
have to abandon their integrity to get belonging, and so
That's what we're trying to do in our family. You know I mean who ever it's kind of late,
letting go of this idea of I will have these expectations for these people and the structure and everyone must fit my expectations and
had been like. I have these people.
have these human being's right. I've got crag, I've got abbe,
I ve got myself, have got chase and got Tisch. I've got Emma the mortgages,
Keep adjusting our expectations
our ideals are shape our structure so that every single one of these human beings, all throughout our life together, feels free and held.
yeah I mean
part of that also. I guess
I think the buddha city of holding it lightly. You know because you can't
He can't strive to say: ok,
got a dial, then now
just try and keep it exactly where there is a real good, israelite. Ok,
just created container.
but he can continue to evolve. Everybody can become who they need to become do with
they do to certainly be the true cells and stuff
creating a safety and trust and openness,
that people feel comfortable, doing that and knowing that you're, not gonna, get kicked out for doing that,
not rigid in its rigid. The second
think you have solid ground when it comes to him
beings you done.
you're done it has to be like it's like a school of fish or like or like liquid.
No, it's just this cut. You have to give it a go,
being less of it. What are you not human beings and constantly shifting
and change, and I think about
all attempts in terms of my sexuality blows it. What are you like?
I think we might in terms of
faith and religion. What are you I don't know?
he'll deeply that we're getting beyond that. You know that we're talking about when we talk about
Either we talk about sexuality, we're talking
energies, we're talking about force,
you know that are greater than we are, and what the debtor fluid and constantly moving and we're trying to contain them.
In these little tina categories right so
so I don't know. I just feel like you,
Have to have some more faith in the book:
agnes and the ever changing nests of people and just realized that word, the water were not the glass.
And that freaks out freaks us
Has we want a lockdown like we get? We think about the future, not being certain at least on some baseline level, like nothing,
well it touch stone in the areas it matter most to us. I mean
well identify. This is this is what it feels like. This is what it looks like animals can now that this is what it feels like a looks like for you
the fact that that is impossible and will always be impossible, but I shall were so driven. We yearn for it so deeply that
We create some, are suffering in our lives and then in the lives of those who receive talk down to make us feel better
it's just tryin to freeze. You know
I think that we do so we do need. We do now
security. You know we are people who
you don't wanna be free. We want to be
We want to be free, we want to be held. We want to be feel so. There's no,
there's no war for freedom,
Down here, there's no way
We're gonna need each other, but I do
we feel that we are capable of moving past the rigid.
he just we put in people so that they can
and their belonging
I mean you know. I have so many friends who
In their heart of hearts in their inner self in their wild self, rightly so, like in the book, I would say that we,
like a wild self in a team, so the tamed self is the self that we put on
outside. We we perform certain roles, certain identity, so that we can stay in the back
if so many friends who are in religious group
in religious packs, who
Maybe they don't believe half the crab, that's beings,
you'd by the: u knows
keepers of that particular faith
dont speak up in the reason they don't speak up is because the second the they step out a line they just gets cured.
you know the idea of
of this shaming, that comes from the pack when you
here too, I am to admit
you feel. Are you know where you imagine that's different than what the that is? I think what we can move away from
I think that we are always gonna need each other were always gonna need groups, but we might
be able to figure out a way to create communities
I don't have to lose their integrity to belong
well, I mean the sword like what did your friend of both wars? Bernay brown speaks about. When did you say
and between feeding animal like reading,
the change ourselves to be accepted by the group.
and what s interesting is, because I don't exactly
to me it's we all do
need to belong to something like there is a primal need and, like you said, this has been an us for,
he and generations, degeneration generations- probably originally, because it was a survival instinct, but it's still there. You know, and
there's plenty resource that shows that we suffer mightily when we don't feel like. We belong, so I think
feel it there's this fine line that we dance between between
disappearing and a group or a community or culture.
On a level that lets us feel like we truly
are seen and heard and an accepted and embraced for who we are
surrendering just enough
identity or autonomy or something so that
we feel like. We are partners
the bigger last at the same time
and surely delicate dance like you said, there is no absolute freedom
I feel kind of. Similarly, there stands between freedom and belonging that were constantly trying to figure out. Where is my place here,
It is interesting that you said identity. Do you think? That's what I think one of the things that I would love to get away from it.
Idea that your identity.
Terminate your pack territory more well,.
I am a you know, were born right were born and we have these potentials for individual selves ray. We ve got this inner individual innate self and then an
We start our social programming pounds and what our? What happens is that we are given all of these identities. You are a girl, you
who are straight. You are a christian, you aren't american you're doyle right, and so these ideas
and to tease then led us to our pack
the identity, I'm a girl, and so in
or to be exact,
id and scene and belong in this group called girl. I have to do these things. I have to stay pretty apt to stay small. I have to not be too ambitious. I have to not be angry. I have to
be objectified. All the all these things
I'm a christian? I mean that means
things for everybody right, every person who wears that label
tells me that it means something different to them. But I just
I think that if we
figure out a way to have groups where your belief,
did not depend on your identity.
I I'm losing faith in
an idea that I can tell you exactly who and what I am anymore. That's. Why ended the
With the I am I am, I am right because
and I started thinking about best in terms of sexuality when, when I first told the world about me and I'll all anyone asked me for months every interview, everything was: what are you? What are you.
And I can tell you is I don't know, I didn't look at abbe when she walked into that room and think I'm gay.
I just looked at abbey and thought out. There's no person.
Made it wasn't an identity thing.
now. I just think that one
the things that happens. Is we have this this idea
people tell us who we are, and then we have.
perform those rules out right in that
fixed identities lead
to fixed pack fix heard of people, and then
that leads to fix ideology and then that we'd store.
Yeah, I don't disagree with that.
Had, I feel the identity side of it is something that may be
people one from us more than we need for ourselves to flower. He could be one of its
the brain was to file. I somehow it makes it easier to understand how to relate here, but as
you so eloquently have said have written.
Easy doesnt nationally me right,
doesn't necessarily mean that the path that's gonna, like let everybody because
need to be and the world
become what it needs to become
yeah and it also keeps us from on. I should speak for myself what I
that giving a certain identities does. Is it keeps us from figuring out who we truly are on the inside, because all that
happening when we, when you're getting an identity, so you're a girl, your christian you're doyle, here, an american
What comes along with those are all of the expectations that a girl
a good girl. Does that a good american? Does that a good doyle does that
a good christian does so no longer so very early in life no longer and my trying to figure out who I am
I'm just trying to match my behavior, my beliefs, my words who
and to these
speculation that somebody else has put out for me,
which is why and then
We're time we just forget, we just think we are this performance right. I mean.
That's why that moment, when I want,
first saw Annie and
she walked into a room in my
entire being just said there. She is, I mean it
I thought those words were coming from me: coming
me from on high and it took me a long time to think
oh, that was coming from within those
I was hearing from the south.
that was beneath all.
These layers of expectation
that I've been performing and not living, and so
That was a really cool expense,
it's for me because the reason I knew that I was finally hearing from my yourself is that I wanted Abby and it was the first time I had wanted anyone beyond who had been expected to one and I loved her
and it was the first time I loved anyone beyond the people- had been condition to love rights
That's when I figured out o
What else in my life is not true
me at all. It's just shit. I've been performing. What about my fate has nothing.
Do with my true relationship with the divide. It's just an
Of what people have faith are supposed to do, based on what
told me how much of my gender, how much of my womanhood is just an act that I'm performing, because somebody told me that this is what a girl looks like.
Much of my sexuality. How much of my mothering I mean Jesus, I remember thinking I can't I can't do this
I can't follow my heart. I can't.
be true myself in this love for abbe simum. Mother
you know. I'm a mother like mothers are martyrs. Mothers
berry themselves, mothers
neither feelings and their dreams.
and their desires, because that is what is best for their children right, that's what I
train to believe and didn't one day in the middle.
All this I was looking at my little girl and.
And she was looking in the mirror and she look
ass, the mere at me and she said mummy.
Haven't you my hair, like yours and something about the way
He said that made me realize. Oh my god, every time this little girl looks at me, she is
ask me a question about life she's
Looking at me and she's thinking mommy, how do I do my hair
How does a woman, love and beloved
mommy. How does a woman live, and I realized- oh, my god- I am staying in this marriage for her-
But what I want this marriage for her.
which is when I realized- oh, my god, this idea,
that I have been sold that mothers are martyrs, is horse shit right, it's it's a false belief,
been planted beneath me to control me what a burden.
For children of martyr mothers to bear to be the reason that their mother stopped living.
I know that one day, if they become parents, they too will have to die for their children, because.
Children will only allow themselves to live as fully as their parents do.
which is why young said that the greatest burden at a child can
carry is the only way for the panama.
right. So that's when I realized. Oh, this is just this. This bullshit mother thing I've been doing just hiding myself, I'm just performing I'm performing the act,
the the identity of motherhood, the patriarch
ass down to me right, I'm just.
Playing it out and it's not what's best. For me, it's not what what's best for my daughter, because the call of mother
but it's not slowly, die for your children and call that love. The call of motherhood is too,
your children had a bravely live
until the day die,
it's. The call of motherhood is not more.
from its model done. Its lake
Cannot settle for anything less true or beautiful than what they want for their children
because their potential children are looking at them.
Saying what do I have permission to one and two
periods in my life right so
got my kid doesn't need me to save her. Might my kid needs to watch from other save yourself.
So I don't know. I just think I guess when I say that I think is important
throughout the identity? Stuff? Maybe
Not what I mean, I think it's important to examine the idea
goals and expectations that were given to us along with identities,
we need to do.
whitman suggested, which is reexamined everything we ve been taught in a book or a church or in school and dismissed whatever insults, our own soul right. We need to pay,
and our own
about what a mother is about? What a wife is, what a woman is, what a person of faith is what sexuality is beneath us, so that our
root beliefs, aren't keeping us from growing is strong in all this. We were born to be.
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one of those beliefs also which
like a touch and around the same time you are grappling with all of this, is
You can break a child's heart without breaking the child. Who is something that you write, which I think, when that sir,
it gets flipped. At the same time, you were like awakening to all these other things about you and the way that
important to live your life and
that's the idea that you know
the primary role of apparent. Is it's not to keep your kid.
Safe from everything you know, but but
teach them, then it's ok
To take risks and it's ok to go
out and risk who you are.
Going public with that enter to you it
It's bravery over safety right, but that's not easy, because now that I think as as parents, I think a lot of us like the first fear that we all have as he liked
I let my kid now be hurt
I just want to keep them safe and ensure they can take risks up to a point
you have to take risks risk only while I'm watching their shin guards yeah exactly like social risk up to a point like physical risk up to a point of motion, risk up to a point and yet
it's the very
the skills and the ability and the mindset that way.
like let them push past, that point, feel the pain and then Anderson,
Had a process that tones aiming to everything that day yonder becoming an you
deeper than I really hope that they become that become as I and I think I think the hard part
of becoming a need to be fair, and this is what our parenting generation, the member we got right was just don't. Let anything ever happened to your child, like
when you bring your baby home, your life ends and your job is to make sure that your babies, life never begets. That's that's the memo we got so we can all be forgiven
we're being little helicopter ii for a while, but I think that what is tat
four apparent to actually trust pain to let their kids have pain.
Is to become an adult who trusts pain in your own life. I think
I, as a recovering attic, spent
most of my life away.
painted all eight, so
Some man do I get that in it.
took getting sober.
And realizing that staying stay,
with myself, not abandoning myself by numbing out.
Even in the most painful parts of life is what made my life magic hands down? That's it I mean for me: it's all are every bit of it comes
Disability and sobriety to me is just a way of life. That is a refusal to abandon yourself ever at all right so
no matter how bad it gets. You just trust that whatever
breaking. You is making you, and
that you will survive, and I think that.
It just takes a while to get to that point where you start to trust,
process of pain,
once you do trusted in your own life, you can let your kids have it, but it's not,
easy. It's definitely not easy. For me, I mean it. Nothing hurts worsened,
Jeanne kids in pain,
but you know I'll never forget. I was doing this speaking
then a while back in a woman stood up and she's crying and she said cleanin my
so much pain
Please crumbling and they can't fix it and every day-
just look at my little boy, and I think I had one job
protect him from this pain, and I couldn't do it
like such a failure.
The other parents- and it was
so interesting. They said. Okay,
tell me your name, and she said.
johnny or something I said: ok, johnny, can you just go?
these three words that you would use to describe the kind of man you're trying to raise
said, sir. I want him to be wise and I want them to be kind, and I m to be resilient and is it
he then please tell me what is it in a human life that creates wisdom and resilience,
and kindness, its aim, that's it I like
it's it's not not having anything to overcome its overcoming and overcoming and overcoming and overcoming. And so I think that
because of the terrible nor parenting generation got that we are
tat dinner children from the one thing that will allow them to become the adults we dream to
I and so and so
eyes. Parenting is about.
Letting your children go through some fires so that they can find out that their fireproof, because of it
as they just become fire of waiter, several lives. We all know those like everything there such a tendency to dissociate.
Think when we feel physical pain, we dissociate
into our brain when we feel cycle
equal pay, we dissociate into a body like the difference being,
We dissociate inform our mind him
Almost chasing distraction we dissociate and or modification dominion rwandans wrong and that manifest in all sorts of like ban visible stuff
but at the end of the day either path keeps us
what we really want, which is freedom,
so rape, if we don't allow ourselves to do that,
we don't find our way back
and rather than dissociate, but he associate.
He got the resources to help the support the skills to navigate our way through. It
Not only do we never get to that place where world a step closer to freedom, harpy closer to a but two,
an expert on our kids to find our way there. When we're not going to go there
It is a little delusional, delusional and so much of parenting is reasonable and some of it's purposeful and I I will spend much of my delusion survivor and I'm raising my hand, saying yeah, I'm not there yet but like we can see it from the tray and
How about freedom in pain linked that the idea is not
I mean we are never going to be free from pain. I know there's theories that way. I don't believe it. I don't believe that we're ever going to, but when I have learned at forty three is that I can
free from the fear of pit right, be
the the paralyzing,
inability to go out in the world to take risks, to love, to be seen for fear,
the pain that will inevitably come.
I am not delusional enough to think that I am free from that payments. I know it's coming. It's always coming
it's either tomorrow or next tuesday. It's always coming, but
I do notice after you sit in it and survive it enough times, you're just free from the fear of it, and that it has to be good enough for me, and that's
With my kids, I mean they
Went through the worst like for them
their family, their little family breaking up was the worst.
it was the worst that they could imagine an eye,
watched them carry,
What else can we do
carry on you know, I'm sure
expectations be a little a little less idealistic. A little more street smart saw that sad. Some of that amazing
know what they are now their kids? Who are you?
people. You know that it's like now,
The shit hasn't hit the fan for them, yet so they're always waiting for the other shoe to drop in that causes. This, like manic, like.
they aren't that anymore and they used to be
the other shoe has dropped for them and they survived
And they're, just briefer and calmer
and I think more ready for what for what life open to them.
Oh, you know, I don't know, I just think that we could think about in the same way with her with our kids, like it will com it's coming,
and we don't have to protect them from it. You know I feel, like my job is just to hold their hand through it
went over again so that when I'm gone, they can walk through that find themselves there something
reference a couple of times is the word wild because it seemed like this is the other narrative that's been running through this whole window of time for you and it
Do something prime or something essential
use the phrase in your book golden ones.
If I read it, if I read it right is sorted to describe people who whore
Performing accreditation for performing perfectly right, you're right, it's like this is what was expected me in there going to be there in a long delay or the more than twenty. As I was reading it
I had this immediate flash in my mind of the movie, the outsiders and this one lie were to stay. Goldstein evolve, saudi boy
is the exact opposite, meaning like a comes from a robert frost power which has
lose that, like essential cell,
that you had when you are really letter you like, and
It is interesting that relate theirs.
the golden ones performing expectations, but dick the real gold, underneath that
that true nature, which is why the book is covered in gold
that is why I discuss,
the knowing as gold, because the guy
didn't you, the divine in you, the knowing in new the while the inner self that is gold is different than golden goddess liquid. I
odin is frozen, it's it's it,
the essence was there and then it froze
I think that what I mean by that wild eyed, I think the word is so beautiful and I think when people think of wild they think of like bad and dangerous. You know, but I think that wild is good and dress,
the full and dangerous, and what I mean by wild is just it's just that
one with the self right and an only
came. We get teemed with their social programming, but
you know way. You know that you're tamed it's not.
can it it's just
You know if you ve ever been in a conversation, were something.
the horrible or re sister massage,
his or something was said, and you feel the wild in you knowing that you should say something, and then you don't it.
That's your to self such a wild self inside and your two himself outside right.
If you have ever been in a relationship we had need threat, we ve had means we ve had feeling
that you that were bubbling up inside of you.
You don't say them on the outside.
that's how you know that you have to solve like a wild self inside with himself and outside. That is afraid to say things so
you know, all I mean by that of the wild. Save I dont mean.
something bad or something that people
the afraid of right. I think it's it's
truest this true and beautiful in herself that all of us know it's beyond words. It's inside of us, it's what it's that no
that you get when you're still right
I dont doesn't matter what you call it like some, because gods and people call it the intuition arms
or at source,
You call it sebastian like who the hell cares, but it's this thing inside of you that
That just knows.
right in this, the more separate we get from that to that to perform.
Self tortilla himself, that's
distance that makes us feel mars
You know, that's how we end up living
lives of quiet desperation that that does that quite desperation is the is the well.
Self inside, not
doing the thing that it would do if it could, but it can't write it thinks it can't.
And I just I have to believe that right now, more than ever,.
It is time right for
asked stop abandoning our inner self sick. I feel like
Or at a moment
evolutionary soul. For so long,
it was how we survived
to hide that self to stay in the pack,
and now at this moment, history-
the way we survive- is to separate from the back rightly.
have to. We have to
imagine a world where politicians were actually honouring their integrity instead of their party lines right. Imagine a world where people have faith or speaking out when a
It was happening inside of their other institutions. Instead of telling the party line. Imagine a world in which white women were breaking from white supremacy in speaking up imagine a world in which men were breaking from patriarchy and speaking. The truth like. I think
imagine a world in which receiving the planet by not towing corporate lines like it feel
like right now, there's never been a more important time for us to stop honouring the pack and stop.
Start honouring yourselves and let the pack evolve.
there when I was reading that and and cheering also
I met when I was a kid. My mom was a dancer, so I was really exposed to Ali and one of the people
experts who is Martha ground and over the years have sort of like I am fascinated by dancers and
does. As I was reading, what you're saying another
came to me, and it was because it was a quote from
this I quickly like ran to the internet
like what was that again and I pulled it up and printed out analysing
this is kind of like how atlanta, with me ass, you printed it out on top and want to share with you, so she wrote
there's, a vitality, a life force and energy. A quick
saying that is translated through you into action?
because there is only one of you and all time.
Expression is unique and
if you block it,
it will never exists through any other medium and it will be lost. The world will not have it. It is not your business should determine how good it is, nor how valuable, nor how it compares with other expressions,
It is your business to keep it yours clearly and directly.
Keep the channel open,
You do not even need to have to believe in yourself or your work
have to keep yourself open and aware to the urgent motivate you keep the channel open?
no artist is displeased
no satisfaction whatever at any time. There's
A queer divine dissatisfaction, a blessing unrest that keeps us marching and,
this more alive than the others.
Yeah that lions right yeah,
and I love the more alive I mean I'm so over the. How do we be happy? I'm trying to be happy and autonomy happy like this?
improvements, shit, I'm just so. I'm not
happy is self leading and so
nicholas. I just I'm no longer asking myself what makes me
happy I'm just ask myself do I feel like I do. I feel,
is this: a life is this person? Is this relationship? Is this job? Is this? Is it is it
Is it that vitality that you can feel inside of you that life force
This brings me to life.
Because you know what sometimes, when I'm really alive, when I'm really in where I was to be it hurts
You know it's not always
But it's a likeness. You know it's like that. That
what that thing that you're born with
Talking about it's,
We owe it to the world. I think we all that
that were born with the world and
then their entire frickin life performing that's the block.
And like she says, there's only one of us, I saw agree with a happy thing by the way, I feel like a lot of a lot of people move away from that to none.
he and I look at happiness as I get the snapshot and meaning as the movie and the idea of
before him feel. Life can feel happy.
I almost feel like that- is the bigger barrier to so many of us.
We ve, sir, like stopped herself from feeling that, but wait a moment where
I agree, I think it's so necessary. The idea of stillness is something that you talk about, also and having something happened here and then, rather than just
ok, so what's went into reaction and move on pausing.
Being in the stillness- and
that changes you and maybe what you do next.
become in how you become yeah. I mean I
at the stillness, is everything
I don't I don't. I don't think, there's any and taming without the stillness. I don't know how you would begin to figure out who you are not
and who you are,
until you are able to be quiet,
not for long enough.
to hear your own voice.
You know I mean.
every message that we get on the outside is programming. Us is taming us in one way or another. That's one of the reasons why we're all obsessed with happiness right? That's all capitalists, stuff! That's that's! That's people by people selling stuff! I just keep.
You get on the consumer hamster wheel. Are you not depressed because life is too
I think it's because you need these new countertops right and then you buy the fricking countertops, and then you need the genes in that because you can never get enough of what you don't really need. So the thing is: if you, if we
stay plugged in constantly to
those messages. We will never have time to go inward and feel for the gold.
To realize that none of those other voices are right or true,
I mean for me, it took.
I found a little bit humiliating, but I
myself. One night.
Trying to decide what to do about my marriage, an googling away.
Google. Three am bedding jerry's in bad googling. The question.
What do I do it
That is an amazing god, but is also cheating on me. Enter.
This was like a spiritual rock bottom for me. Ok, I had actually asked
a conglomeration of tolls and botz what
you with my one wild and precious life right. This is
night where I looked at that question in. But why
I trust everyone on earth, but myself, why do
I only look outward for answers right
I used to do was what do I do? What should I do? What would you do? What should what do the experts do? What would forty nine quizzes on Buzzfeed do, like everything was outward outward, were outward and
at that time, where I realized
every one was telling me that there was a different right thing to do so
Face of infidelity, you know that
Units were telling me that a strong woman would leave the christians were telling me that a good wife would stay the parenting
Birds were telling me that a good mother would use at all as a briton learning experience whatever, but it was
some, because I realized that, oh, if they
was truly a right and a wrong or a
not bad it was objective. All of these people wouldn't have different right wrongs and good and bad,
so often because those like oh.
these right and wrongs, good and bad shouldn't shouldn't. They are not pure they're, not from the gold
these are all culturally constructed right. These are dead
tribes telling me the should shouldn't shouldn't that are the expectation of that time,
then their made up there, the the barking sheep dogs that key
the herd in in in line so
That's when I realized oh, like I have to go inside me and I cannot allow other.
Those ideas too
control, this one life that I have enough
promising myself that I would be still. I think it was like fifteen minutes a day in the beginning
a freaking nightmare, hated every minute of them for a good long time was just. I think, that's why nobody does it so hard
it is so hard to be left alone with your own shit.
Little why it's just we will do anything like give me a phone. Give me the pantry, give me anything, but this time alone, but.
everything that you need to know is in the stillness. I learned.
Over and even when I dont want to know, I will avoid getting.
when I'm not ready to know what the next right,
yes for makes. I wanna keep doing the wrong thing for a while, because I know it's always that waiting for me
in the stillness and it's free,
No, it's not about friggin self him
Men and so exhausted by all that shit, it's not about improvement, is just about returning to yourself.
Do you always were.
If you like, a modern personal development, it's about change. If you look at
thousands of years old.
Exploration of philosophy, lay buddhism or a lot of eastern thought,
The sanskrit word that is is commonly used is given multi or give a multi, which
deconstruct to not trend
one being but liberated being because a fundamental assumption is
Not changing into something else, like all you doing, it's like yours
raping away. All the stuff that is stopped
the person, the asses, has always been there from
the thing that is front centre for being present from being the lived expression,
you are yeah, that's it
Saying are those I'm talking about it's not
becoming something different. It's getting rid of all the cages so that
can be who you were meant to be in the first place so that you just because
the person that you were before the world you could it be
the first lesson that you knew everything
it's about not being divided just about
being able to live a life of integrity which to me, has nothing to do with right and wrong. It's about being integrated, you
the inner self having what
What you know and what you feel, what you imagine on the outside
become the words and deeds that you do on the outside. Its just integrate
both into one life?
cool thing is, though, is that I think it's a little bit deceptive, because what I have noticed in my way is that
the more you liberate yourself. Your odds of lots of shit does change right. It
like it's not like. Oh it's, you just returned yourself and then everything stays the same
Like nothing stays the same, you are just returning to yourself
the more that you liberate you're real self itself that you ve been hiding out of fear. Your life has transformed
Right because you're no longer acting out
self anymore and
your relationships change and your job changes and your community changes, because you have finally shut up ass yourself.
so there can be unjust. Trying to say that there can be. Some scary should take those eyes, yes, and no doubt he can blow up everything or how'd you get dressed his aim, whereas if you like to do something else but pray, I mean an amateur
That's what it isn't that. Why so many of us down,
Actually engage in any process of either liberation. Transformation is because we know
deep down inside that a lot of stuff is gonna blow up or change, and theirs
that we kind of want that to happen with kids.
But then there are other pockets were like
one, Iraq, that boat and but there's something inside of us. That knows, it's gonna be right and maybe even sunk
you know so that a new one can be built that will allow you to sail somewhere, beautiful but still like. That is, I think that so much of the fear, I think so many of us will dip our toes in the process and then even
we don't know going into it late. We get a couple of steps in iraq
this is what can and I think it,
Get to the point where you start to understand deeply that there is a cost either way. I agree
there's no, it there's no getting out freight later either you rock the boat
outside, or you abandon yourself on the inside and
time. There's a war either way right, there's either
either start conflict on the outside
relationships in your dealings in your community or you.
start this conflict on the inside.
Is this self that slowly being ignored?
word and slowly losing that vitality and the gold is dulling
So there is a price to pay either way, and I dont
that it has to be this
its liberation of self this and gaming, it's not, it doesn't have to be
think that everyone should leave their husband and mary an olympian. Ok, I mean I definitely most people should, but
serious, but I do think that
doesn't all need to be
not that way, I'm talking about like in conversations right, I'm talking about you, know,
at the dinner table, saying
that you think you can't say I'm talking about sharing with your partner like you're dead,
His innermost needs that you're afraid to
to say: I'm talking about this lake
little ways that we abandon ourselves over and over again. And then we would look at our lives and we wonder why we don't recognize enough, because
having brought ourselves to them right. So it's not
about the huge changes is just about, allow
knowing that inner voice to speak on the outside interesting what happens
Being brave at the end of the day, but
sometimes testing the water. Can I do
think that brave as well
like I just been thinking. So much about the word brave and that word makes me a little bit.
Annoyed sometimes because, because I feel
Like somewhere along the line, somebody posted a meme or something that said brave means be
being afraid and doing it anyway,
which is then we were all dislike, ok, brave means being afraid and doing it anywhere right. We just all like adopted that as our belief, but
I stopped thinking that recently. So I was my two little girls wanted to get their ears pierced and I took them to the frigging pagoda.
Mall and I have this.
youngest daughter names emma and she just is
just delete the youngest and I just got tired of parenting. Just
so we call her a free spirit.
That means kind of unparalleled refugees which means that she's just she's wild she's awesome. She does does what she
to do and she says with our mind and she
He ran right up to the pagoda and jumped in the piercing chair and said: let's do it and the lady looked at.
He was like, as this sure are you her mother, and I think I'm trying to be an m and
Oh, she did it. She got both her ears pierce right away. She
I had a little bit of tears, but she wiped them away. My
our daughter, Tisch is
more cautious is more cautious kid and she watched this
Piercing go down with emma and she changed her mind. You know,
She said no mommy
ready to do that. Actually changed my mind. I don't want to.
and I said, are you sure I said yeah? I said: ok go ahead until the lady in Tisch said
excuse me: I m actually not gonna get mine done today and the lady looked at her and
oh, come on honey, be brave people,
Like your sister look, it look at your sister. She so brave,
a couple of the other moms started saying similar things, and I got so pissed, but of course I couldn't figure out
I couldn't like put in towards the moment. Closed driving home when I figured out is that
brave is not what we ve been saying. Bravest brave is not being afraid and doing it anyway. Emma was brave.
She wanted to get her ears pierce and she said she wanted to get her ears pierce and she got her gotterdammerung. First,
she was brave because she didn't want to get her.
First and she said she didn't want to get her ears pierced, and
didn't get her ears pierced right, breathe it. In fact, I would suggest
That Tisch was an even more brave than emma in that moment, because tissues knowing was telling her something that wasn't gonna get her. The applause of the people on the outside
her brave her knowing was saying no when everybody else was trying to get her to say yes, and that often requires more bravery. So I do not think that brave means being scared and doing it anyway, and I think we might want to stop teaching our kids that, because it sounds cute when they're seven, but when the
Thirteen are sixteen and they're leaving our house in the car to go to the tiger down the street? Are we gonna stay be brave, and by that I mean, if
instinct is telling you not to do something and you feel scared. I just want you to do it anyway, just plough through and
a brief person is a person to know
whose herself looking.
Or her inner knowing and speaks her inner knowing on the outside, regardless of whether
people are going to share for her decision or not.
yeah. I love that be true to itself. Even when it's hard it's right there
reclamation of the word
it's because otherwise it just all the crazy brief bull. People are brave and no one else is brave, looks different all the time it cannot be judged on the outside
And four into words like us, brave, could be being in room with more than two people prefer to celebrate light. Yeah
yeah. I love that
it also feels like a car like fun
dressing place for us to start to come full circle. That ties in with something
that you finish the book with classic.
Read something yassum, sir
It's a page and have towards the very end of your back. I feel like it
like a nice place for us to rap.
it's the luckiest chapter, tiny glasses. I actually that's funny that you said that cause I'm getting there, but I think I can do I am there. I have them in different rooms, readers and different yeah, okay, lucky's.
When abbey and I first fell in love, we had hundreds of miles and a million obstacles, keeping us apart the facts,
It out in front of us made a future together, seem impossible, so
tell each other about the true and beautiful unseen order we felt pressing through our skin.
our imaginings always included each other in the water.
Abby wrote this to me from the other coast one evening before she fell asleep.
it's early in the morning and I'm sitting on our doc watching the sunrise?
look and see you in your pajamas, still sleepy walking toward me holding two months of coffee
We just sit there in the dock. Together, my back against the piling your backing
my chest watching the fish?
and the sunrise we have nowhere to be together.
The harder things became the more often we'd returned to that morning. Abbe had imagined for us that doc, her me
two steaming mugs of coffee
which became our unseen order guiding us forward last week
Abby made dinner for all six of us, the kids crag and me. We also
Down to eat on the back porch of the home on a canal of the gulf of mexico abbey and I bought together
it was a gorgeous evening, sky, all peoples and oranges and the breeze study in warm we ate and laughed and then cleared the table together.
Craig left for his sunday evening, soccer game and the kids
it is the dishes and then sat down on the couch to watch a show. Honey are bull dog, snuggled up on amis lap and
He walked outside to our dark, the door
melton one doc.
I watched from inside ass. She sat down with her back against a piling and looked out of the water
too hot, tease and locked out to join her. She looked back toward.
And by her smile, I knew
We sat in the dock together, my backing.
it's her chest, her back
the piling and we watched the fish John
while the sunset
The sky celebrated deeper and deeper propose.
We went back inside. I snapped a picture of us smiling with the sun setting behind us and later I posted it.
so lucky to have each other in this life. I replied it's true. We are terribly lucky
It is also true that we imagine this life before it existed and though we each
up everything for the one in a million chance that we might be able to build together,
did not fall into this world. We have now we made it I'll. Tell you this
the braver I am the luckier. I get
I love that retail has a few reading. There.
It feels I know that
that that so much went into it.
to getting to where we are right now, but it feels
magic. It feels like shit like we did that if we did,
It is true. It is true that you
Can imagine and then work bureau
things into existence that we actually become a world
we believe that we deserve and we show up and belt. It makes me feel hopeful
for not just for my family but for all of us were so.
Last time you here, I ask you this very same question. I'm curious
and how its chains as we sit in this contain over the good life project
If I offer the phrase to living life, what comes up.
the true to yourself. It's what I would say.
Yeah I am. I believe that the freer people are the better they are.
I believe strongly in.
in what you read before that.
Each of us is here. Each of us is fresh, is brand new. We are each exe,
comments that have never been tried before we
each were all down here, asking other people for directions to places they ve never been.
Another is no map. We are all pioneers and
what I believe.
I have no answers for anybody else, the only
advice. I have to live a good life.
to return to yourself.
And trust yourself. Thank you,
The thank you so much for listening and thanks also to our fantastic sponsors who help make this show possible. You can check them out in the links we have included in today's show notes and while you're at it, if you've ever asked yourself. What should I do with my life? We have created a really cool online assessment that will help you discover the source code for the work that you're here to do. You can find it at a a type: dot com: that's s, p, a r K, e t y pe dot com or just click, the link in the show notes, and, of course, if you haven't already done so be sure to click on the subscribe button in your listening app. So you never miss an episode and then share share the love. If there's something that you've heard in this episode, that you would love to turn into a conversation, share it with people and have that conversation, because when ideas become conversations that lead to action, that's when real change takes hold, see you next time the.
Transcript generated on 2023-06-24.