« ID10T with Chris Hardwick

Adam Rogers

Writer Adam Rogers hangs out with Chris to talk about writing for Wired magazine, the difficulties of having people proof read your work, he and Chris bond over growing up nerds and they talk about his new book Proof: The Science of Booze! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
One of them is Pike S number. Five: thirty nine take France, you doing I'm doing great, how you doing I'm good you, your beard, lookin real nice guy, the ovens criminal in trying to make it look nice for the summer instances like a facial, Toby AIR is a fine thing, a man's. I treat you shaping like an elephant or something that's a good idea. I was thinkin into unlike the alligator links and teeth, but I, like sort of a more peaceful animal like that you promised you'd, have to grow. You I feel like it. You can do the trunk, maybe off the beard, but it would take them take a whilst, although I do I do not, they want to go there. I'm trying to figure out a mustache trunk situation, cabin Vienna get your mustache pushing up most of my moustache and get real Bush, but it's not it's Germany, Bush, not seventies, are coming back ray
now another never come now now I can ever be. It may not even you're not going to see the two thousand seventies probably, but I just want like how is my lake seventy style porn careers post to get off if that doesn't come back? How are you supposed to get off the question tat unless that seventy stout born here comes, I guess those dreams or go wildly? felt God. Now I've been trying to build this Burg Reynolds body for nothing. You know what I just realized is talking about this elephant: Toby Airy our sponsor trunk club normally by accident. Did I talk about the elephant? Ladies gentlemen, rational Chris hard. I mean totally on purpose words around two trunk club, but basically trunkful clubs, yes, not a triumphal club. I've been misinformed. Please tell me about this product, so you wear clothes. I do I'm doing so now. Do you stressed out about buying clothes on what I ok so trunk club? Is
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As you are on it today. I can't help it. I just God they're just coming to my hearing on all cylinder, but I know it is divided up and I just shut down like he has to get his blood replace them. But we don't talk to me when these microphone go off. Oh, I know that those two real Adam is one of the literally one of the smartest people. I know, and he was my editor wired senior editor wired magazine and he wrote a book called proof: the science of booze. Now available ever books are soul, but I adore Adam. You mean on websites where books are sold and had power. Yes, so here's north, I guess, number five. Thirty nine Adam, I believe, is at jet. Jacko by the way, to get hand on as a great great handle just like us, By voting, I, with Adam Rogers, now entering merely star com,
Rogers, has written a book. when I say that I feel like I should try to deny it all of us. I know I didn't write about you. That's not! I don't need, as your name on it, I'd there's that could be the jazz guitar Adam right. As far as I can tell those only one atom Rogers in the world, I don't I just I would have. If I should. I have told first. I don't, but Mr Adam Rogers well just recently peoples a beggar information, I've known Adam Roger since two thousand, seven
when we were employed on the wired Science PBS shelves right, which was a tremendous amount of one for me, and that show was so the catalyst of a lot of things. That was the first. I guess. Maybe around July of two thousand seven I made the decision that I was only going to work in areas that were of interest to me, the troops of which, seems in it seems like intuitive an obvious in retrospect. It's not it's not always operate it. Wasn't it's not! It's not is everyone because you just don't. You know I think, especially when it comes to work. Maybe this is an old idea, but there there was this notion of no workers
thing that someone tells you that you're good enough to do and you you don't necessarily enjoy you just do it, because that's what you're supposed to do- and you really you know most willing, dont, really question that and I certainly was in work survival. Motorcycles have to take any job because I gotta survive, and so, but into doesn't seven. I said, I'm only gonna take jobs actually care about, at least if I'm not gonna be employed. I would at least rather be losing jobs. That meant something to me, rather than losing jobs that I didn't want and still feeling bad about them. We do. I had very much the same advice when I first started working on the book actually and in some the sum of the thinking about doing the book. While I was also fulltime wired still, a lotta came out of honestly conversations that you and I had while we were doing the show and then after that, as we kept in touch, you know. A man by his a great political journalist said at the beginning
I think either right before I got in the book contract right after it, he said you know, make sure These are people going, tell you to do two things in the book in each hand. Book cell and he said and don't listen to them, because no book cells, your book, won't sell and judges that he's like no offense, but it won't cost books don't sell. So when it doesn't sell? If you want to make sure that, when you're sitting at your dining room table and you're, looking at it on a shelf that you can look at the book, they were at least it's the book. I wanted to write you yes, because nothing! Well, yes, a lot of things you feel worse than one about the hay. Physical pain, for example. Physical pain is very bad. Getting hit by now. Roy. This had been a be terrible, but but at the end of the day, when you take a swim, So when you take a pandering swing at something- and you miss, that is a very difficult emotional thing to recover from, because it is useful,
Not only was I scare because I acted out of fear and and then it failed, and then I have to live with the fact that I gave interfere and failed as opposed to one you like cheese. I can't even pander me. I come quit Elisa, pretty crowd, please e book. At least. If you fail in your own terms, you can sleep at night, you you can at least go well fuck. I don't know. I didn't mean that did what I will do everything I wanted to do and it didn't work and that sometimes happens which, as you know, still hurts, but at least this you feel like you, you still did it did it your way. So yes, so I started work. You know Wired was that when I made that decision- and I was looking through the breakdowns, the acting posting breakdowns- and I see this thing- wired Yes and it came up, and I was like this- is the show I have to host the chef you'd said. I urge members tugging at this you'd said to that. You had thought independently of that used we're seeing you
do a science show that you want. I did want to do a sideshow because I obviously was headed a love of science technology and also does all this hosting experience in a certain voice that I had culture. Over the years of who you know You know who I am, and I just felt like. No one in my mind, I thought known Whitehead that combination of things, the way that I specifically did them. Yeah and wired science came along, and I was like PBS Science wired like these are all of the areas that I wanted, so that that's where I met sorted you're, not a biography myself, which is how you do not, but but that's, but that's when I met you for the first time and we became friends real fast and you said: hey, you should start writing. Would you like to start writing for wired? And then you were my editor, for
you know the all the years that I would contribute actively still you want what you gotta pick you up at an ice dialogue day, I loved having your super busy, but I thought you were here. I love having you in the magazine. It's a real! It's a bonus but you're you're you're. You have really fascinating background and you're also Do your job, probably one of the smartest bitter Junior? I was this a output you, unlike the top three smartest people. I know you know last more people, men I would put you in this after its most people. I know an end, your humble about it. So not think you would ever go yeah, I'm real smart, but you, but you are I'm super smart I will come and the people who you knew all that's what I was that's where I was somewhat secular, there's a little bit because I feel like sometimes I've got you in a weird sort of shame in a little. What shame spiral about how much seemingly pointless. Knowledge is floating around in your brain, about things where you'll start spitting out
Actually, I'm go on sorry there, nor that actually choked on that. Yet will I start its true? Sometimes I can get caught. Sort of downloading a file. You know where it is that, where does that self smart, shaming come from words that come from it comes from. Finally, being self aware emotionally aware enough to to notice in a room that I have now like, shut down conversation in because I'm basically just it's not it. It ends up looking in feeling like showing off retroactively. But it was just like. Oh here's. The list of all your time at this thing here is the list of start. Can you think of an example? Can you think of a good example whence always haven't conversation? You came in with some
Yes, I'm just one well that I was with with some friends and a place that sold cigars and we were like. Let's try cigars and I I smoke- you know too cigars a year right, but it is one of those things that I happen to have a lot of. I reported on a story about them I got interested and I d like reading, and so they were like well. Does anybody know anything about this before we pick for we order, you know, and I can went well remember what you learn its lower your friends like anyone out any other hands. Ten minutes later, you know here, a lot of you know: Shade grown tobacco from Virginia is used in the rapidly that's that's right, whereas most of it
go seeds used in cigars were originated in Cuba, but then, after expropriation, when Castro came in a lot of those people left in they plant, you know it's that kind of stuff like oh, ok, we're doing that. But it's not just one sector. I've heard you drop comic book stuff, I've heard you drop films it's not just its, not just science stuff. It's like poppy. There's like there's like pop culture. There you know you're, your brain seems to be us like a storage unit in each it's more like a storage facility in their a bunch of different units and you have access all those units at all times I am I have a pretty good memory, and- and I get I mean, did you know you do this to write you get interested in? right, and so, when you get interested you STAR asked, are keeping stuff ever known or taken click cuttings. Loud and putting it in places, and I start remember
you're talking about because I like building, I like knowing how stuff works, and I like building that into stories. So I started kind of tell myself. This really call that connected to that. In that letter, and an end. You know- and I always wanted to be the kind of person who could do that. I guess I was sort of what my grandmother was like and it was like. The people were able were able to it once people talking at dinner. You know my family. The thing to be able to do would be to say: will you know it's interesting about that and actually have something that was interesting. You know, and then you can kind of bill. The conversation it makes me terrible at small talk actually makes me terribly like so how's your family. What is the cause? It's always a deep dive yeah, because I'm just like will you know- or we could be talking about like who invented the kind of food that were in your hands. I mean I'm, it makes me very impolite, but has put us opposed what supposed to some Smarty pants people who don't have the ability to They were really only have the ability to kind of see their own.
Their own vision in their own thoughts. One of that I loved one, when he was an editor. Is that you are really incredible about. I would send in a rough draft of something Then you could see everything you know from from a satellite view and say here that I think you're trying to say- and here are some questions- you should be asking yourself about how you want this to develop, and you know here some things I think you can snip at me like that, like the job of being a senior editor, it is, is not an easy job to convict is sometimes go, I don't know just the make it better, you know, but to be able to debate but to be able to challenge someone in their own voice to say here. So I think you should be looking at this in your question. You should ask us up as a very difficult thing to do with you and I have a and I hope will again have an interesting relationship. It added a writer relationship because our writing voices are actually very similar. So when I,
When I asked questions or make changes, they I think that they don't feel they feel or more organic to the peace like the peace as its own entity. The store as its own entity, is like oh yeah, that is what this is supposed to sound. Like this thing we are both working on. You know one of the things that I work on as an editor. All the time is not imposing my right early voice. On very good writers who have a different way of saying stuff, and they tease me about in the office. I have a few ticks in my writing that they'll mess with me about if they see it edit or in my own writing? So you do nothing again regarding taken up your attention be there, but, but I think I m that those thing that structure you know is that that is the part of writing that I'm most interested and I think in way them in short, a voice right, truth and beauty right. You have like the facts in the voice and the structure of a peace, and- and
working with you on structure is always a lot of fun because you think about structural out in your writing. We do in comedy you think about when you do in peace and your ideas, actual rate over the mighty is on structure in good ways right, so that the stores that we worked on have been, I think better for it better for that interaction, and it's a part of the interaction of coming out with a with long journalistic pieces, whether their online or print that most people don't tumble two until after they been in business for awhile. Is that interaction with the matter in a you, take a piece in it in your half done: oh yeah yeah, and then it starts yeah yeah. You you get it. You get a minute of satisfaction of like I just met that deadline. Three days later. You know you get all the red marks and all of you know about this and have a thing like that that was my eye was my penalty spirit. In writing. My book and there is to know what yours was, but it was the getting back the notes. After the first round like I've, too about all this shit. Now I just spit spinning.
We out on a page, is literally the first of many steps. I was pretty. I was pretty okay with kicking in and saying are now the work starts. I was all paid internalized that waste. I thought I hadn't And why is that, when I turned in my first my first draft, which course wasn't my first draft, but the first thing I was willing to show my editor and and her notes when they came back or notes, were we're pretty rough. It was. I had a couple of really dark weeks is because the notes came back and they were they were like on on several chapters. They were like. You know. This isn't really a chapter Nike to make this a chapter in a book like as if you were writing a book chapter, you know, how are you going to taking notes like better? You, like, I think I know, what's good about I've, been editor for a long time. Well, I was I we'd have to ask:
Courtney I mean you know my I think outwardly was like thank you for Alzheimer, took with this this. These are great notes and I will go back and I will do my best to either execute them or execute something that solves the problem you have shown. In addition, way, which is what, as an energy, always hoped interaction with your writers. Gonna, be like you know the heart. Elsa new writers that sometimes the hardest thing, one of the hardest things to do because in the email, when you kick in your draft is to not right all the things that you think wrong with it and that might be rather than we might what you have to send his here's. Here's the draft. Looking forward your thoughts. Now it's one of the hardest things to write to an editor, because you have to kind of mean it, but then, when it came back like internally on my site, when I went back to the desk RE wrote most the book I was broken for two three weeks dislike
I don't know what to do. I don't worry. I can just can't. I know what you know. It was really it was terrible. So how did you finally get through it about after three weeks of the hats, darkly sitting in front of a screen and like messing around with twitter and coming back to it in and went off in playing of email me back to whatever I am. I was looking we remember. Whichever was that's, how bleak was. I was looking at one of the chapters and at the top of it the lead essentially- and I am I said to myself something that I have been saying to myself all along, but finally internalized it which was well. If I was an editor. What would I say about this? and the first thing the king. I was well as leaders are wrong and then there was like. Oh, oh, this leaders, aura of course like to. If I look, This eight thousand word this all out of order, and it doesnt explained this thing and doesn't it
all of a sudden. The structure like descended the fact that it didn't have a structure descent. I could see it. I could see what wasn't there and I got up, got up put my stuff away, got up and took this long, walk cuz. I do most of my best thinking like that are walking. I went walking around route. Forty five minutes by the time I came back achieving the chapter, and in its that I mean that that draft is what is basically in the in the book, but it took internalizing it's getting away from my writing and tried to think what my uttered a brain. What's so sometimes, sometimes you think it does help to, because you know we can get up against this wall. Like I dont there's not my brain is just. No matter how much I squeeze it enough, there's no more to paste in the tube we're gonna fuckin cut it open now and start scraping it out with a toothbrush. I so is it better in those moments, do you feel like it can be better to go? to release. All of this, and just let it brief for awhile
and then and then come back to it time away from a definitely help. But I was gonna deadline to sure in I think that super important right like deadlines, are that's what they're, therefore, to make you finish, you know, but I I think that I was. I just had to remember to trust the process, like to trust my utter and entrust my own ability to edit. I was having a lot of trouble. I agree they were problematic chapters. But I couldn't myself over the hump of like you got to re break. This, like you got to go back in in like take the cast off break the leg in three places again, and you know put it and reset it, and I just couldn't like I can't do it's too hard? But when I finally figured out a way to do it, that was the that was the when you know and and and
that, had been true all along with it, really that the coming up with a structure for the book is what enabled me to write a proposal for an end of it, like figuring out how to do. It was always the thing that opened the door to being able to do it. That seems done what I said about that, but it was still. It was still true that, like yeah, I was very hard to get at its back. That said, you have to do a lot more work, but but the way, my brain process, that was, I dont, know how a subsidy left. If, as you say, I have no more reality, this was the extent of my ability. Well, that's why that's? Why do you think a little bit of separation is important, because you know people. I think you'd you forget that you know your brain is I think anyway, but the that our brains. Essentially just absorb data and just re express it constantly, and so your brain today is different in your brain a week from now, because you ve had a week's worth of experiences and a week's worth of processing, and so to be able to
away, live your life a little bit and then you know I mean I think your brain really wants to sort things out it just naturally, I feel like wants to minutes. It is essentially of computing device, two degrees, You would want it wants to put things in boxes and understand how everything works, but sometimes I think it just needs it needs to absorb the right things in the world in order to have the the perspective to be able to do that. But when you're like when you write and when you write an act when you read it but bit her, we write is even a single joke right and then you see perform it and you get feedback yet in the form of did they laugh and yet laugh when I wanted them to right and you can adjust right. But do you find that the adjust part? How does the the difficulty level the adjust part compared to the part of like you sitting there racking your brain to come up with in the first place. I find it to be a lot easier because there, in writing fr.
He is a very you know it's over lonely and isolating experience and stand up very much about a relationship that your forming with another people? I mean it's. What the reasons why I love collaboration and I like working with you as an editor, because its justice sounding board, basically one I'm writing alone. I have no idea, and I don't know what's the right thing to do. I just sort of all this is what I am getting. His wife feels right release with an audience even stop that work. You know right away, and then you can do something with that information. You can then try to figure out how to make it work in its. Not just. You know why this thing? Is it good? I dont know who's gonna tell me you know, so I think there I think they're wildly different, because one your form we one is your relationship to your own brain.
And the other is a relationship to a group of people and and they're. Just then the outcome, as is different because of that hosting a lot about audience. As I was writing, and while I was thinking about the book, you know the right so that the books about signs of alcohol rain, and so I was thinking a lot about equal who or who are the constituencies you know like who? Whom who food? I want, read this and what would the response, but I knew I wanted other science, writers and scientists and people reached in science and people are interested in boosting cocktails and booze writers, and so will how you know what are they gonna? If what would have things that there, but they read and that they write and that their word about, and how can I bring myself? How can I put myself there, especially not having reputation for writing about the boost side of stuff having reputation size, as a science writer an editor,
science journalism and breathing like what's that. What's that relationship can be, and at the same time as being able to write something that is really really. You know me, like you, put yourself into at the book, publishing is, as I've learned, I think different than the magazine. Writing in some ways leads the way I've practiced it where's your writing for the magazine, you're you're part of the magazine, you know, and so the magazine presents a certain way that you're an element you're talking about boys, space. We are here we and you and you, even though, even though you have might have your own specific voice, its essentially a subset of a larger thing that you always that helps inform yeah I my eyes, I do have a way of expressing things, but I'm I need to express them in this general sphere, because it's a part of this sphere, where ultimately summit as it has to have a certain voice in a certain way that it comes often and is of a surfeit of a certain type of county right in
oh yeah. I completely understand that I've been that that actually makes things a lot easier when you have that when you're constraint, yeah, because it just is it's a guy, it's a guide, you know, but if you just ask one to sit down and disco right whenever you feel like people go what the fuck I dont give me. Give me something? No just right, you know just right right. We, he was staring at the screen out. I mean there were, like you, stare at school with the cursor on it like what What I know and if anything can be anything I can do anything. I could learn anything in this moment. I could write anything and then your brain just like what where's the in here. What do you need a lotta guards, but it's almost like it's almost like trying to make Hey bales Throwing the head, were, you know, like you'd, have to your brain need south thing to process the I'd. I think, and that's the nice thing about journalism form for me- is that you go.
Your report, like one of things. Besides, we don't want to write. You haven't interviewed enough people. Well, that's a so. I don't know about double people probably are familiar with the background, but I think you know your career started in. Probably you basically just got you just jumped right into the fire as quickly as possible to do, and you start working for news, we go right at a college. I went to grad school for a year and a half in science writing and then got a job as a factor for the science writer preparing Bagley, who is still for my money, one of the top ten cents, writers and country, but Ba who they were So this was like ninety ninety three or four, and I walked in to the offices call I was calling people here like hey, I'm just gonna grad school. I bring some stuff possible. Maybe I could come in and talk to you about things
We actually do our job opening. What you come in and talk to us, and I thought I was gonna. I was living Boston at the time I went down to New York, slept on France Couch and walked in, and I thought I was gonna like a ten thing and Newsweek, where they were just gonna, assess whether or not I was some sort of monster of enemy have me a future time, but it turned into an all day thing: were they? kept sending me to the next person up the line, as as I failed to be a monster every time right, and I think I am still convinced that two things really are we did at one of them was talking to the the the woman who at the time was the technology right or so the first like technology writer, produce weak and and complementing her. She had a macbook, an early MAC laptop with the trap ball and shower yet shaded Powerbook in sheep,
is the trap ball and aftermarket one the like an eyeball, so I compliment the eyeballs trend bond then I said I also was really into this show that she'd never heard of probably called the x files, which turned out to be her favorite show and which I had just written. My very first freelance piece about a short review of it. For this brand new magazine called wired and also the magazine, people were very excited about ninety four and then talking to the person who, at the time was her editor and saying no, I think I feel like. Maybe there might be a story or two in this internet thing. I feel I feel I feel like it could. Can't big deal. I've been working covering it and have little experience. Will you Nixon? a mess around and gradual summit I feel like it could be like an important reporting tool, maybe and seems like a lot going on and I now know that, like in his head, he was like. Oh thank God, right
somebody raise some kid who knows something about the internet. We can, because we know it's an important. We know this is gonna, be significant. We we don't know what to do yet. Hadn't hired Stephen Levy and as we can There were just there S. Kids around there were that the early twenties, Hyena researchers fact checkers wannabe reporters with us, we're messing around with video games and the internet and that's what they think they needed that at the time it was a good. It was a good moment and I you know, I always wanted to be a science writer, that's what I wanted to do so was. I think they could tell a little bit, but I was just like no I'm. This is my. This is my thing and I didn't see Newsweek at the time comes caused issues really like Sunday. I too am but sort of late Friday and Saturday were when all the action really happened in his weak, and so I didn't see you, I didn't see a Friday night in New York City in the nineties. Like I was a therapist and I was, I was happy
like it wasn't. I finally learn that a workaholic is not somebody who hates his job Goes anyway. It's someone who loves it right, I loved. I was. I couldn't imagined you were ass. There is a nice and frightened. I was there like. The lights would go off and I have to go turn him on because I was still there writing you're still a reporting, and I think they. Responded wealth to the survivors, some other. What what? What are some lessons that you learned from having to churn out a weekly publication where everything you cannot but got me? You shouldn't up anywhere, but you really can't buck up a noose who seek an idea in any way. Of course, I used to keep a list for the eight before really the internet like or are you just cope coming news groups for life? Well, I was that's true. Was doing that and I was reading a lotta like obscure trade magazines and journals, and I still do that being able to process a large
lack of information on the left of your computer into a small step on the right side of the computer is a pretty useful scale as a journalist- and I was probably not doing the thing that you're supposed to that by great journalists do also which is cultivating a lot of human being sources and calling them all the time it is asking what was going on. I have always been sort of, not as good at that as I wish I was, but I was a good information processor and I could see I was like for patterns. You know that the people weren't noticing either in science or in technology or in in miscellaneous geek or even the nerd stuff so, and that was getting more important to write like Kind of subjects were moving from at Newsweek. The back of the book into stuff elated covers about in or you would do a cover on a trend story or a cover on a tv show. So like the x files turned into a cover story for news. We gears later that I helped with you now and in the EU
we make mistakes all the time and as a fact checker? If you made him and if there was a mistake in a story that you missed it was your responsibility, not the reporters possibility or the right of responsibility. So sometimes there were mistakes that I just checked wrong. You never got wrong and I would keep a list on my wall that I would reap we type every so often that I had. A list of all the mistakes that I had made in print that I had a correct or something just because it would make me sick. My stomach- and I remember like don't do that broke up like that's there. That's the first rule get right as a fact check, or I would imagine That's the bare minimum that you're spoke. These all banks have to be right, you're, a fact, checker yeah, but you mean, but but but it's so hard and it is the core of like that's the that's who I am that's how I see myself right as a journalist and as somebody who, like you get it, do you do it fast and you get it right and
a tribute your sources, and you understand what you're saying and like- and these are the keys to this- is your part of keeping this democracy function like I, you know I really felt that important and then so what you're ever any stories that that Newsweek, like I'm just curious like any anything in the nineties that they sort of falsely predicted, is like this and to be a new trend, and then it didn't work. You know it's funny. I mentioned that the random facts about cigars, that I know I know most of them, because we did a cover story on cigars as a trend when I was there I was wondering reporters on and it was not the case, maybe but possibly overestimated the impact of the trend of people's poking cigars lobbied. It's sort of you know it it it's. It feels like a weird tightrope to walk because, ultimately
You know it is perceived it especially now, when your vying for attention when people can have their attention splintered and a million red near infinite, actually number of ways. You want to be able to break news, but sometimes when trying to break news, maybe you jump the gun or It's not or it doesn't like the. What was the but what will reap what were we reporting on in the world? The word sign shown, I know, was on the cover of wire to us, the corn returning corn into fuel or of ethanol, ethanol, yes and then I feel like that. Just went away, I mean well also. We think about these things are different, kinds of news right, there's the kind of news that, like oh shit, something happened right like breaking news right, you know, and that can be something is as horrible and significant as like September, eleventh right or mean election or can be. You know it's. You know
Papa in politician: wins election were loses election unexpectedly right news, you know, but you can also have what I think it wired. We often call them a conceptual scoop, which is when you look out at the at the landscape of things going on in culture, and you say Actually. I think I know what this means right and you try to assert. You make an argument. With this says, about the way we live now you know right and sometimes that can be, the profound sometimes I can just be interesting- writing and a dozen attempt to to change the course of human history does sometimes it can right. I think we like to go on to work at the New Yorker on health care in this country changed the way healthcare got legislated in this country and that something that any journals really like. You hope you make that kind of her back, and you want that kind of a kind that sort of a selfish Miguel. You're gonna want to make you
you want to be able to effect change for very selfish reasons and for very uncertain jobs through the very, very selfish reasons our cause. You want to have that attached to your name. I don't wanna, be a guy what are you gonna be holding up your surprise that, yes, I desperate although changed things. A bigger thing is that you feel like. Oh, I can actually effects which are We want better. Yet you want the world to be a better place because of something that you reported, that you wrote an unknown up, baby nice that had happened with stuff. Not the cigars, then maybe it's all, but it's ok, I mean it's. It's watching the magazine industry and even even the book industry, try to figure out and and keep it keep its legs in this ever changing rocking sure, of course, of a of consumption. Geraldo
live enshrined, understand how audiences consume and trying to understand how to fund that behaviour is whenever, when, when, when, when a lot of numbers, tell us that you know everything is down from what it was ten years ago, because there are so many different ways to get things yeah in, and you know we're very conscious that certainly it certainly wired Where are we do things in print once a month? We do things on the web once an hour, You know we do who work on things on video at some work. Some some recurring interval that changes but why wired dot com was different from the magazine for a long long time, yeah, it's a story and it had far reaching consequences for us as an organisation where win conning asked big Magazine company bought wired they didn't by wire dot com, because the internet was gonna, not mean anything. What year was this? Ninety, that's all
ninety whom I think I'm gonna sailing ninety seven, but I'm we get it wrong. In my my people back the office, can we, like you schmuck, forge a factor was the fact that your affection before I got there, look and then been then body back it s like are obviously have to integrate this. This is right and so bought it at great expense and but by then, the cultures that diverged and so in every news organization, the culture the web is very different than a culture, printer or video or whatever right, but for us to really very different, because we had grown up different right and so to try to figure out, and I think we were given we get in there now it's been really fun and hard process of tying those too. Cultures back together back to each other, making us all believe in each other, believable you do what we were doing, find a unified voice. You know find it find a way for all
to speak in a way that felt like wired, that if you as a person who just wanted to consume wired and really didn't give a crap what platform you are consuming it on right like, if you look at it online, you don't care, the story. The only runs on minor if it's a story that comes from the print magazine or comes from freelancer from an editor whenever, like other places, we we assembled that we might feel differently about emotion. It should feel like wired, while the magazine itself does feel special to me in this, because you know- and I think you know besides the besides the contents, which you know bounces between sort of frivolous pop culture- stuff too
fun things setting forever row was like yours, five, weird things you can do with lasers and then, as the bet it's, that is the earth wired story by the way that was my first like two thousand seven store answering that it, but, but also you know seeing what Scott damage did visually with the magazine to really make it like a minute is like an event. Publication like this is why you should have this because it's it's the its compelling content, but it's beautiful to look at and you can't get the same experience and I think you know like looking at and on the web. You can't get the same experience like even just the grade of the paper, and you know the way that its presented is is
special or trying to deliver some kind of you, no differently special experience and all the different places right in trying to understand better like well, what makes it special honour mobile screen on desktop screen on tv screen. You know in the on paper and in the magazine like how do you best use all that we're we're really work? still learning what we ve always been. The magazine has always been very good at delivering that kind of experience, distinct from other magazines on paper, in print right and if Europe, Inga. Like I mean I I, this is the stuff that I have been magazines. My whole career, I started working a magazine, less thirteen. I've actually worked, and I were my junior high school had a print shop in it. So I work mental type. You know this is one of those outliers You had the right circumstances for your right skill set at the right
I am. I did find a lot of places to use the things that I wanted to go. Learn to you. That's really interesting. I don't know, I don't think we had any. Those are my high school ass. It was, I don't know why I don't know why we had it. I mean it was certainly not there now, but it was. There was a pause he sure there's a pinch up and I worked with lino line lead like all the stuff? That's just jargon words. We covered in LOS Angeles, regrouping, ally, where'd. You go Highschool Fairfax really. I can't believe we ve never discuss that before I dont want. I did not really. They are known I come home in it's its super weird I would just before I came in. I went to canter's for lunch, which I might car almost drove itself, like? I don't even really know how I got there from Burbank Airport and, as I said, I looked out was like I'm across three from my high school and I'm counters apparently, what I do- and I was There- and I am a thing- happened to me- that only happening LOS Angeles, which is, I saw myself in the future. I looked up, and I saw this
older gentlemen who, at the corner. I looked like my great grandfather who I grew up with, who died a long time ago, so that would have been weird and he was wearing peace, super dapper old dude, like he was in Panama, hat had really nice like That's a nice Aloha shirt on and slacks and walk by. Like oh fuck. That's me: it's twenty forty and that's me encounters Ed said that and having to be separate this guy, don't I do not run into my future actual eventually I I, how do I not apparently that's apparently I get pulled. I get pullback irritably, you know it's come back your hometown. You it's like on your hometown. By compounds are like that's. Why you, but you know it's a primal, go back to members in time soon caused the reason I kept going. There is cause my dad and in my dad died net like well, does not mean it is. It is nice to go back to your hometown, but you know, especially with my schedule,
just sort of a man, who's gonna go back there in my dad's now can be there, and what am I gonna do with is weird because I you know my parents are divorced, and so they don't even know any more. I have friends who are still here, but but it's not like I go home my dad's in Tarzan, which not how I grew up in. So I go to my dad's house right, but an U notes, but it, but it still is like I said I sort of come here and it's it's like time. Travel forward and back you know, especially if, like an eighty sun comes on key Iraq and I'm driving Neurology drama robber bearing considerably for glass almost unknown. Just like, or by broken curfew again, like I'm, burning down the brain, twelve Are you trying to make it by my father's curfew, If there was a Marty, Mcfly thinking more like you than than Michael J Fox me, like you, the guy that would have hung out with a scientist I think, to trying to you know trying to
then I would have loved that job. That's like a good game! I was this guy that that. I know, namely retorts, just put together a tape of coffee Table Book I'm new magazine- cover yeah you're, a severe love dominant urgency and we did a little bit in the Maghreb. But the army reboot and by the online reboot as well Jani, was a huge influence on me. I sometimes I pretended to joke it's not a joke. I I run the front of books sections that way so that the short articles in the right front- and I and I will say like look that those actions. Are equal parts omnium mad like those were the two? Those were them. Those are my formative magazines me I mean you know as a kid I was I would get so excited. About new army manage ass just being again, not only because of the content, and it was it was. You know, like it's sort of it's it's imagination, this forefront of this one, this insane
world that's brewing, but then also just you know, visually stuff, and again it was just that kind of event, publication know where you were. You really do kind of need the you need the science and you kind of need Lastly, in the aesthetics, if you really to me just sort of balanced out all the things that I just felt good read like the earth really thicken the paper stock. Like the quality of our cover stock. At this point like it was really was thick beautiful, glossy paper Secondly, that it would not that you have to have a special de the magazine really like it be like a hundred dollars, an issue that has had its right and there would be a twenty five subscribers, but it would be gorgeous to look at and it had you know they were, and it was clear There are a whole sections on the paranormal. There are like you, have those probably a little bit, not exactly journey, like we might think about it now and like and then all the art there were just like science fiction, artists and usually naked
people and tat it was like this mind, blowing experience of really give its reading this. This things like owed, so things can like this you down, you read it and yet we're still every so often that might go to move as an editor was that was Omni. Was it it? Was it a flint publication or was it like a young? It was Gucci then the right was it is was it is why for his girlfriend or like someone, I feel it the story that I'd heard was that it was someone that he was linked to that was. That said, I want to create this. They. I wish I had more facts right now. We can fact regulator I want to create this. That I want to make this thing and lay I find yeah right on it in brought on. Bend over, who is of great science, writer in science, fiction, writer and then through through those connections reached out. So did the glass staff the beautiful magazine making and then also reached into the science fiction, writing community, who had never really have anything like that because they had
you know my science fiction magazines after the fifties were not much better than Zena, really right so reached back to this golden age, tradition of like what you go. Go back in one to do a popular science stuff like that, you know it, and so you have stories in Omni from people like eyes, a gasp of racism from the great. But then you also have short stories like William Gibsons. First, cyber punk stories are in issues of Omni, you know, and so you remember reading, probably an answer or something right later, amid eighties and or or we might have, wearing chromosomes short stories, gives interests rising on like going like wait a bit I remember this story. I read: storing. Only like you know, and I've actually going to talk to him a little bit about echo those Tottenham, for I wrote a story about the neutron movie when it came yeah, I remember you're, doing set visits and yeah. That's when I was very jealous of that was fun. It was fun, but in part of what I wanted to do about that was that, because China is one of us
eighty, two movies. That was one of those that great year for nerd movies that I had been in theatre every weekend for and that it was about the urging hacker culture emerging computer culture, and so I went in and the emerging ideas about what you know. Then you could say: cyberspace illustrate face what one of I'm kind of curious to see just sort of where because there was there was that period there was that small window in me early eighties, where nerd, culture, almost immediate, was definitely something that that was bubbling out in the entertainment industry. We note certainly like MAX head rumour or are they runner Blade runner end in a light like the electron and other tron was a failure, but you haven't is now trying to do a bit of light movies,
real genius where they were there was I go. This is a sub culture and we're gonna make a copy ergonomic, a comedy about really smart people, but then it didn't really it just if I felt like it's gonna get surprise. I like it started the bubble started to grow, but maybe four, why? For a wide adoption rate it just like you know, people were aware that there was technology, but of technology was always. It was a thing and their leaders was like. Oh it's over there. Now it's it's a part of who I was still weird subculture, and so even there was that science fiction moment that, where you had kind of Brazil and and blade, runner and alien, which even earlier than those right where you started to see. Science fiction is being a tool for very mature storytelling, because technology was becoming more ubiquitous part of our daily lives, but it ended up being a subculture. Like any other subculture, I mean you know, and among the among the various recurring arguments that we have in the bull pennant wired is the in other words, verses, real genius at work.
I'll sit there and say: look the movie that actually did it right. The underrated movie, the movie, that that really defined. That culture. Can I say what I think I would I would agree with your right: revenge of the nerves was fun and revenge, or the nerd certainly made you made you like victory- but you know just interpret but real genius Real genius, for my money is one of the most quotable films, sure of of the aid and really explored. I in a non in a knot and like that there were there was there was not really stereotyping in the way it's like this was This was just a group of ridiculously smart people at this. What you know what was supposed to be Caltech, and with with little with hints at MIT and prancing, but yet so that you know that that movie seemed to understand something about that culture that river
it wasn't trying to understand revenge in theirs was outcasts getting there's an that's. It's great riots really funny, but at any rate in it acknowledged early on like super. Smart people are a weird outcast group, sometimes just like people with different ethnic background and sword. You don't there. It's like ours upset of humans that have yet to some kind of accident or quality that that groups them together and then has now. You know has that I'm Spartacus ending we're all of us realise that we all have something it makes us outcasts and that's what binds us together and that's it. It's a really good lesson and it's a good ending. It is not how real genius and real genius enter the laser from specks. Yes right like and an essentially almost killing a man with popcorn. Yes sure not where you want to go,
You know- and I think- but I know- but I think you're right- that it didn't it didn't you didn't latch. I didn't take hold some. How people just word didn't didn't responded me that people like myself, that movie was like a fuckin manifesto. My guy, you know just the Chris night character was my ultimate sort of older brother. Hero archetype in eighties. When you go please, I college be like that. None of us we like that. That is what I would do. So I was more than an hour, so they filmed part of it at my college. So I got there and call a little bit like that. Only because you like wait a minute. I know these buildings, which college camonica of Amerika where what is where do you stand now on nor culture? Do you do you feel, like you feel, like the idea of you know, when someone it's. I mean ironic that I'm asking you was on the on the notice, my guess what made you feel like that? The word is water,
Is it not mean anything anymore? Is everyone to do you know? I get asked these questions aloud and you know, and some people say yeah great another, Butterfield were like fuck, you you're ruining their culture. You know like because it so deluded- and it does does not necessarily mean anything. It is one of things I want to talk to you about the other. Did I haven't you see, and you can at least start is critically think it then I think you're guy I actually visited. I think your work in this field has been critical everything. I really I do because I think that what it, if you can make it ok for people to care, deeply about something and want to learn more about it and maybe even contribute to its cannon right, which is something I think that you get, especially in the in that overlap of fan, culture and nerd culture right. That's that
for example. You can make up more acceptable that one can make that more acceptable. That's that's! Amidst, for you know it's what the it's the thing that under pins, the book of like. Oh you, not you personally, but one might be the kind of person who goes and get likes to get a drink at a bar like, let's find out about that, you know, let's, let's look into that and find out how that works, which is where I got interested, rent and- and I think, tat Keener. To that extent, if that's nerd culture great, and that should be inclusive and more welcoming and people can can live in that in different ways and and and it can be friendly and cool like. Oh you, I think I may be quoting you back at you here like. Oh you like that thing like that thing in a different way? Let's talk about the edges and I think I think it really. I think it boils down to how people consume, things not necessarily what they what they consume, and so you know people will say: oh you at this You know that guy persons, not a nerd you're, not talking about common, looks like you but you're just playing.
To the sort of big media idea. What nerd culture is that it's all big bang theory in everyone's gotta. You know like have this type of this. We know I mean it's me, that's being an oecd jerk, that's my thing! That's different than there are oecd jerks who are nerdy by fear. I feel like I feel like it does. I feel like it. Does the culture a disservice to say that it has to be about? I mean, I think, science fiction, I think, comics having fantastical things. I think Like science mean these are things that nerds lieutenant gravitate We certainly in the in the fantastical side. I think, because you know there's its imagine given its an escape from reality and noble away, a lot of a screw up. Reality was sort of not not necessarily kind to us, the choices that we made in terms of like the type of things were into, but I would also I mean you know it's hard to tread that line of talking about that of science fiction in popular culture right, which is super intellect
oh now write them that they say. Oh, I like sorrows equal fucking. Everyone like Tsar, where is your Tuttle hard hard call, yeah yeah evaluate you enjoyed the unlikely beetle studio, the beetle close. You see no music, so you ll see Iraq and rules that make love to me. Just enjoy pleasant, sounds you know when the avenger makes billion dollars or every that's. A science fiction will be based on a comic book you known here, but that's mainstream culture. You know that this stuff about whether you know how to program at computer or build a robot or understand our chemistry, you know is a different sort of a different part of it. World and the part where your writing, your own van fiction as a way to engage with you know. Firefly red is another part part of that world and I think, may be the only thing that you you. You have to ask whether, like oak, so if I expand the tent so much that encompasses everything does that damage
and in some way right- and you know it shouldn't, like you- want other people to have the same doing age with things as intensive as intensely as as inert or a geek might, because we have common ground. Then we have some talk about over lunch, but some people don't want to talk to be all right is it the ultimately, you know if you are part of a thing, maybe there people and I'm sure I'm this person for some people where you go. Oh, I do want to be a part of the same thing. That guy is because, if I'm a part of the same thing, that guy is, that means that we must be alike in some way and I dont want. I don't want that entity to sit dilute this thing. That's it should just be mine and my friends yeah I mean I do. I remember having a kind of chilling realisation, late college, maybe and after religion like, oh, my god, other people also like these things, has intensely as any idea of data that yeah like no. In fact, that's that's good right like it. You know there is that thing in in northern. It's that got remarks on. I wouldn't Why? When joining club, would have me as a member like love it's if other people like it
Ask me something only I know about. I just. I feel like it's important to understand what you're motive since our, and I feel it gets also because you know if, if your goal is to essentially just build yourself into a bubble- and it's like you know, for the outside world, this is my thing and then there's nothing, there's nothing wrong. That's just a choice. I personally part of what I like to do. Is I really like to understand people and I like to understand why they do things and thank think you know when I went through my big I'm not going to drink anymore, let's refocused life and try to make it productive. I mean I read all these self help books in this. One thing keeps coming back to me and I M, and something that I feel like it p, or would we try to employ this? More often there would be much less.
Pull Should in the world's at least surface bullshit, but I think it was the Stephen Covey Book, this seven habits and and it might actually be the first habit which is seek first to understand and most people. Just want to tell you why they're right more than they actually want to understand the true nature of something, or at least how you can interact with someone else or what their take on it is or how to gain more votes because, ultimately, when you, when you take on new understanding a new knowledge that does get you outside of your comfort zone, because you're in this place, we, like, I know everything I need to know or someone else is going to challenge me and maybe make me even if it's even if it's up at an improved understanding of something that still floats you outside your comfort bubble a little bit right. You have to learn, very special kind of Eu Jujitsu of being able to like take that on board and use it, because you you must you know, because you rights and other people,
Can anyone can to come along and see? Your writing? People must write things you all the time that Elect Buck, you don't know shit you? What is this shit? What does this budget as opposed to as opposed, hey, so I understand why you wrote this this way. I don't think I agree with that, but why don't you tell me what you're thinking was so we can try to you're out, if we understand each other so that all our letters are like yeah. That's for sure everybody wants to understand. No, I mean at one of the reasons that you become one. The reasons that I became a reporter was that it was an opportune to just learn about new stuff all the time every week right back when it was a weekly every month. You know every day. Like others, a new thing, I'm gonna learn everything I can about that, and then I'm going to deliver that back in hopefully and engage entertaining and and correct way and then, if somebody challenge it if they know more. First, I'm gonna get sick to my stuff, because it means I made a mistake in print, but there's no kind of it is even a weird sort, but then you're gonna have to respond to it and either you're gonna either you have to take that on board right and like change
you thought. You knew or argue it make the case you know and and and and standards like no. I what you're saying, Sir, but you know why I said this other thing and here's, maybe what you haven't read, and by what here's the citation for that an end and it ain't right. It becomes a that dialogue should be an exciting dialogue that should be. That should be fun fun dialogue, we learn something new. You never learn all of it, You certainly never learn everything you need to know about something by deadline right, you know, you're, not getting each day and eroding article that end, and I was well- I don't know I guess I'm talking became about that. But one of my recurring anxiety dreams. Is that I'm gonna have some reading for the book in somebody's gonna, stand up in the back and say, but don't you think, the debate? What you seem to have gone wrong about fear that I missed you like man. I believe, because, especially when you're when you're
delving into an- and I realize this very quickly with with wired, when I started moors, where work on a tv show when you start sort of in in inert things, that's I feel like their other. Their other groups will just go curious, stupid idiot, but this group in particular, will write you a dissertation about why you were wrong with footnotes. S and an end which, which you know again are ultimately is good if it means that you're getting to the bar, of whatever the nature of something is, but it's, but it's definitely your d. I feel like you're putting your There are a lot, you know four people just because the people you know that are part of our culture now is where we're hope offers, which is fuckin love to go here. Why that's wrong as I that's all he has done as well as I that will in theirs, and you have access to the people who are building the edifice in the first Place programme, but as so, I would maybe think about it. This way, the care,
council guy on the Simpsons why's that funny, because it's true right, because everybody who knows comic books, has been in a store and met that guy or heard them arguing in the back about like who would want to fight Batman above a fat, red dots, Batman and it's better come on come on. Ok, from August when we finish in the meantime, I would note that minimum bus right, good, comic book stores are not like that right. Bookstores comics where's that want to succeed as a business right like I went in New York and I went to my old complex for my favorite count, bookstore same ox, comics on CE marks and talk to my friend Mitchell the place in it. When I was there and I used to be the every Wednesday night, you know a good counsel. Once you succeed as a business has to be welcoming. It has to be a place. The people who never read a comic feel comfortable, walking in and can say I my kid saw this
cartoon. It's got a red guy in a blue guy and I think and feel silica sure it's right over there. You know I don't want to be like Jack blackened and high fatality, exactly a good, even know what your daughter lives. A good record store can't be like that, a good, a good cooking supplies. Can't be like that. You know a week, you can't you can't function in a larger society and have those kind of attitude. Why do you think, then, that within our subculture that a group that you would feel would be sympathetic to elite ism and, being you know, and excluding where at least for me feeling, like an outsider for a large part of my life, be particularly because the things that I was in two and then when I grow up, I just sort of like think. That's why I'm so like alter a robber awry, inclusive everyone's like I dont, want people to feel what I felt when I was growing up as opposed to. I would have
you people treating me like this, I'm in a bill, the smaller garden, and you can't come in my garden. How do you like it here? We do make that mistake specially when we're when we're younger, I mean you know one of the things that I always thought I started to think was a telltale sign for me, at least of that particular worthiness was like I'm just not not reading, not instinctively reading other people's emotional states as well as someone else might just as it has a practice as an ability. You know it's something that you have to come at. If you're, that sort of nerd you have to come a kind of obliquely like why can sort this out like I can start to learn by looking at people in talking to them what their actually feeling and what their responses are. What my behaviors are, you know in a more sure like homes in way than that, somebody having just do it on a magna like this person's happy, but that person said like you, you know, but I think we don't we're not that good at that right away,
so it might even be unintentional, was well listen if you dont, like the things I like. Obviously that means that you're stupid right and when you manifest that attitude or even if in fact you say that out loud as sometimes we might make that mistake, you dont noticed that is hitting some it snapping somebody's head back in the same way that it snaps you're back when they make fun of me for not being play football, but I think part of I think, part of a dark side of nerd culture, those bled over into more. But I think this is, I think one of the one of the downsides is that I feel I can me in the old days have that Have those now I know we do have those now, but in the but in the budget, but before I feel like, if someone got in your face about a topic, whether it be Cars are whether it be overfed versus Batman order and enable getting your face and go no fuck. You here you're wrong and hears. Why? and they would actually have a wealth of knowledge to shoot. You know to basically lock and load in the chamber just start firing at you, as opposed to now. I feel like a lot
people have that impulse to fire things at you, but without actual doing all the research and having all knowledge of, and I feel like people coming, each other now without actually thinking that they have all the facts, without actually having done in our work. Is it such a headline, culture that were in because there's so much data process that our brains can't process, though it's just Oh, I read three sentences of this thing, I totally know that thing now I mean you know, maybe I I feel like that's. Why I'm I do much better now with people who who, when I'm talking somebody about their their thing. You know that thing of actually have that depth of knowledge about, because then there engaged and excite. Bought it in its its bid is more fun to talk about that, and then then I have something I can ask questions about. You know, then, then, maybe I've sent me
media that, in common with somebody in you, can share a take on something it, sir, and it may be why we talk a lot about pop culture together because pop culture is still a shared, you know everybody can watch madman and and and think hard about it was so you can actually have a subject that you can delve into and Dublin from different angles and and discuss you known away that that is not as superficial has just oh, I saw those the cut shared by my friends on Facebook and therefore I know about things, but I don't know I mean I think that that that's not it it's nothing that in only nerds. Do we run into you think we're running out of new pop culture, things right there's I guess I guess. Patents argued that and in a little bit and right
We want a Europe that for wired. I regret that for learning peace that we're running out of that we have start over Clayton cows were basically just re expressing all of the old yeah. I'm not interested. I don't think that at all, but I am no. I think that there are a lot of great creators out there who are doing more than just Strip mining movies in eighteen. Eighty two or the great complex of what I do I just found out my neighbour in my new house is, was a big tv writer He rode on dark shadows. No, and I really want to talk to him as frequently I think he's like eighty five years old, but I really want to sort of pick his brain about. How did you meet? so Barbara in the seventies, with a fuckin vampires great. What was that moment? We like also a vampire empire, really. Is that ok
for there was. There was a draft. You know there was a Dracula trend in the seventies. There was that there was a ramp. There was a vampire trend to the extent where, though Angela movie- yes, yes and then to the extent that they they made you. You know if a comedy is made about something than it was poor. Ugly. It like that, when are you going even further barriers by sure why what a vampire dropped into the New York in the seventies and the disco era loves the nightlife Christine Latona you'll get it because he can't explain nosey. Let me see if I can explain to you, because vampires kinkel out it can't go in the day. Is the sun at night? That's the thing you know who else is like that disco people? They hate the sun tools and overlap yeah exactly they symptomatic overly burns their cope, fuelled eyeball. So now that the theatre thanks, mom and dad organ already jobs and is ready. Susan, Saint James.
Kate. Now either NATO ally that was and richer bench Roger benchmarking of on Helsing, who was fucking great great yeah. Now it's a very funny funny moving its even funnier now, because it such a great period will be to kiss you like, oh funny, vampires in New York and the seventy urges allay knows New York right, yeah like it, so you get seventies, new reed seventies, New York, which, as you know, a different planet, now also love at first by good Movie quality. That is also the gay blades zorro the gave way, and he George you have described ass, a God all other railway did love at first sight, lets people AIDS or has a gay brother cousin. You must have, and it must have a cousin Bunny something right with you like. While that's there's a lot of jobs, that would not get told, and I gave up the sword for a whip, and all the different colors, all the different colors, what closer wearing today, its sure,
whatever whatever it was over. I remember my parents trying to decide whether explained this choked me actually cause. It was because the joke was, they got Hughes. Now he was. You're not wearing black. He was wearing like banana colors, though he was wearing more of a cranberry. He was wearing acquiring like apple coloring grape, because the Ngos and everybody you're laughing. I remember- and I remember it kind of my personal why's that cause for you see. It is these stereotyping, seven days you exactly ass, I see with seventy right. That's not a nice thing to say, and I didn't seventy that gonna watches or I will watch love at first buys, although that probably full of like malaria types word, if you watch now, you'll be like a little uncomfortable. You did say that when you get back at my head, I'm so anxious just thinking about like what those like
shut the door on the seventies so not matter not full recommendation, necessarily a with some qualification, no now, but it in ITALY, there definitely was also. You know that Another period of time were safe. I was like just trying to just trying to buy up Cabot so interesting because of what science fiction looks looked like I was thinking like I was in the movie, Logan's run as the last pre star wars, science fiction movie- and this isn't exactly right. The time is not exactly right. It's not exactly true would ever, but you get him like Logan's run where the special effects are kind of great for what they are, but not as great as they're gonna be or maybe movie like gum. I dislike Dark star, looks out running this to the priest. The prisoners were the guys, we're learning special effects for eventual gonna go. Do it for sorrow, but they were still wasn't. It wasn't serious and it wasn't a money maker. They were goofy right. There was no sense, self seriousness about it and, in fact like. If you're gonna make a vampire movie, it would be a parity like love at first by
and make a western it would be a parody like blazing saddles a brilliant parity right, because the because the the action, serious, waited make. These things had been either never worked to. Science fiction was always for kids and stupid, or had been tapped out like the western of musical yet you some kind of postmodern take because because those genres were over, they just done it. They had did they solve them and then they solve the solution, and there is nothing left to say. Then you had to make fun of it as the last ditch effort here. And then you end up with this this this out, growth in the seventies and film and television of like that the Indy guys getting some money and making really amazing night and nineteen seventies film. You know the serfs oh years, right, we're like smooth or serious, and they have messages and similar matters. Making stuff means something, and then like stars comes out says like oh actually now we know how to do that again, we ve got it, we got it sorted and we can actually make really big amazing, epic things, but take it take it very seriously. You know that that that are there
movies, not about what the nineteen thirty cereals were but thereabout. How we remember them. You know which m: that's where the that's, where the nerd started: get power because they're they're not making things like what, actually had their making things like what they remembered, having so even better because their technologies that much better at everyone's learn that much more and maybe in some ways worse to because then they. I think this is happening in complex alot now, where the so complex that you have now written and have been for decades, more written by people who grew up with comics right in the same way that people are right for the Simpsons appeal, the grub watching the sergeant Zahm murmured, and you can- and you can kind of tell right if you, if you, if you watch the show so with comics their people who were like writing,
that man as the awesome version of the the awesome memories they have of that man very different to what that I might have actually been, which puts an imposition of sometimes come. It was a really great comic, sometimes not also meaning that, like my two little kids can't really read Batman because it's too violent, which is weird for comics. You know it just now that now that the women in this due for decades rights started cooking in the eighties, you know twenty fourteen, unlike its still pop culture, still kind of looks like this. It does make. It is short of that. That's why more more people can be nerds, because we ve all we grew up in it. Now everybody Grubbin adjure at this is, as I do like, that idea of something essentially feeding itself for the next generation, but an almost like a sort of a weird when it when, when, when you're, when the thing is nourished on itself yeah. Well, that's what that strict mining, that's the we need new stuff and pop culture
I think that's. What's behind some of the we need new stepping up mean pop culture. I regret is that you know people are kind of making versions of stuff right, but I, but I am not mean that that changes everything that's. I think it's true in some cases actually like it's not a blanket. What think? That's partially, where the you know part part of it, is that term audiences are splintering and these giant the structures of whatever the industry, is books. Movies television is still trying to hold on to this idea of, like I'm, not not in all cases, but in the in the bigger ones. Still children, a polycentric idea like Carpio everybody, rents, when you have to appeal to everybody you're, you you're very risk averse, because you don't want to try new things, because you can't take the chance that if someone doesn't recognise something in the midst of all the white noise that they are going to be no
names their money for it and then everyone's going to get fired. Yes, so in movies, just I'm not sure whether mood examples on my mind, the most among, but you you can imagine this- we're we're like their spinning to protect a million dollars to make a thing fails like someone has to commit suicide like someone else to go to stick a sword in their gets in the front of the board of directors of some but transnational media corporation. But you think about like the things that Christopher Nolan does for genre right and like interstellar coming up and that have high hopes for, like the Batman movies, what kind of and combat movies right and in tat that second ones like a serious crime, movie and cool, and nobody ever try to that way before inception, like some amazing, really hot highfalutin, very expensive science fiction movie right, new kind of pop culture right, but also a movie like attack the block.
Right, cheap. You know an alien invasion movie a straight ahead. Nineteen fifties be movie invasion movie, but innovative new. Nobody ever said it in that kind of place with those kind of people like done on the cheap, I think I'll. Practical effects of their worse e g was the kind that you can do on your laptop. I don't even know you know something. New and popular culture gets absorbed much more quickly than it used to write, attack the block. Comes at an eighteen. Eighty is the kind of movie that you and I talk about, and then thirty years later it's like were attacked the block, our sobered right, where the tackle outcomes that when it did, unlike will, that starts, can be in star wars like decade, star, Wars, Europe, you know that director you're making fantastic whatever the camera, which, let's not get excited light. While I felt that women s district, I, like you, always shit some new chronicle New Chronicle right liked, so there there there those and that's just movies. You know you on non inert television, which I
close attention to, and I say this as a person who watches highfalutin tv and the lowest level of the lowbrow, isn't on our ultimate there's: there's look. If, if there is it is me watching legend of the seeker every week that money and polluting lowly that it waste a show which I sought for every fit for what it was and still loved watching. So you know you, you A show now like arrow right, which to me, is actually a great comic books and agreed turned into a great tv show on its own, like an action. Adventure show that still man to ring all of my nerd bells. You know an end romance like. Oh, this is offensive crucial, but a guy she's narrows the bad guys and, as you know, does rather than instead of having said feeling like it strip mining fifty years of Green Arrow comic book. Newly which who would how it who would know, ran like what would you now get right,
You know, instead of feeling like that, it feels like. Oh we're can take his character and remember some of the things that happen in the books and do a new take on it. That seems really fun to me and that you know it in a way that that's appealing to both men and women to prove you can do it. You know, so I will not respect for that and our culture well does not lie in the earth and no one's gonna say talked me again when they decide to remake, tells the golden lucky. I just wanted to bring that up, not bring back alive. You entails a gold mine cannot bring about all of us that we need. Indiana Jones TV show, but not like in the something ok. So he needs a hat yup if he could be in the third. Parties were win adventure. That was a good time because there were so
planes sure now we don't have the money for a period show so you're gonna have to use the collapsing bridging universal studios for yourselves. I think I'll be ok cause the stories of destroying the characters will really so so sensitive, go the monkeys, teller, these stories known and how does it happen Gold mines that included, ended, that's like when I canceled it should have been like and then flu, is played into a volcano the end, and then it is cut back in its an actual golden monkey. Just reading a story to a bunch of people that event he sees its written written on. He'll, see their days auxiliary. Doing dovetails, there's a toad Different life is like a hurricane limited. But he just went from
We pointed out ale about science visions. Life is like her again and came to the point in trying to make me the is like our US friends so long as yet. So the the book that you written is ninety booth. I remember when you is called proof, I remember tat when you were riding up the pitch for this book and then you sold it in and it was the I feel like. I should apologise a little bit too, for I ve been very gracious. Become and shout about, but I I I I know that this is about the up, where you are in your life, I will just ok, look vietnamese let it go bad country. Here's here's mine, with the way with drinking. I don't is anything wrong with booze. The problem is meat, so I dont look at booze is being like. Booze is intrinsically. Valueless like it has no the quality. Is whatever people assigned to it in for me. That was it. That was a negative. The way that I interacted with this with this substance, but that doesn't
mean that does anything wrong. I have no problem with that whatsoever. I appreciate I just felt like I should at least Also, like I'm aware you put the science of before it, I did, which makes it the Newsweek trick, how are we gonna write about booze designs outside, so we get a of signs of secondary was. Will we are velocity of better signs of people, a people can really get their minds around this time. We talk about how you should talk to your kids about committed You don't know how to talk to you can teddy jackets the science of don't take drugs, but what is your? What was how it first of all what, you're process for four flushing story when you're writing for the magazine and how to that differ from what you had to do for the book gather super different. It turns out You think it's a it's either of you. You learned our lesson when you forty four are ready for the front of the book. You like how does really simple
The book you know is if a foreigner, private or words you have your establishing. You have your title IV establishing sentence. You know couple examples you back up with some jokes and then like one line at the air and in your out and then when you're right, you're right, you like it, thousand were like I have to expand those in two paragraphs in columns chunks, They don't know the story and they go after another ones. I don't know Ba ends, and I did find that like so book, look is about eighty thousand words. It turns out eighty two hundred thousand words. This one comes and like any two or something, and it turns out at very different than the current four thousand word universe of a magazine. Fecal book is roughly two hundred and fifty double spaced words that double its production and empty words dumb with doubles baseline for pay for politics yet right S, past, probably right! That's what I thought you might like to fifty Aren't you fifty? I mean my so my structuring, also usually with Ruth feature stories from a magazine that what I'll try to have it doesn't always work, but I'll try to have either
you know when somebody pity me story, will we construct a pitch to take to the two other editors into the editor in chief, for no one or when I'm trying to pitch my own. I wanna write about this is to have a narrative, glancing narrative, art like what is it? What else does it have to have, though, for you'd like what's two key elements that have to have free to go? Yes, this is something worth exploring. You know character to follow character. A lot of stuff is straight stolen, straight from screen, writing or a character trying to accomplish something difficult against increasingly difficult odds. Finally, making decision do you find in making that critical decision that either succeeds are felt right, so you bill that build a narrative spine. Rather than do you know, what's a perfectly valid, waited you magazine articles that we rarely do at wired to be to say, like theirs, what's going on in the world of decay in the world, a thing right, brain hears thing example, of one of the elements need to be determined right, so journalism jargon, but we tend to like to have one narrative spine at wired like follow
story and then hang on that spine. Other examples cases or context like most importantly like. Why is that a wired story why's that interesting? What is changing about the world, as exemplified by the story that I'm telling you and engagingly right, and so in a vertical? That's what happens so I wrote this. I rode feature now four years ago, three four years ago for them, his him about a a researcher trying to solve the mystery of fungus that grew on its ups seemed to grow and whisky fumes on the fumes that coming out of a warehouse where whisky was the stuff is growing everywhere in and nobody knew what it was why it was growing? Where was growing and he tried to figure with out with those bankers command You know I don't really have anything against bankers. I was just you couldn't on lawyers, you gotta go
We're gone you I couldn't get a lot of really excited. I always like guys asks for bankers, yeah yeah. I thought to an end, so I you know. So I have this mystery story and I consciously told it as a mystery like where does whisky come from and where it why? Why is aging whisky, making a fungus grown? What is this stuff- and I had this great- that James God, whose the researchers working on it turned out to be really interesting guy, and I wrote him to be a detective. I call them consulting my colleges in the story because Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective right, and so I wanted that parallel to be there. So I had this narrative and then hung on that narrative conversations about well what what what's our relationship with nature and technology? Why do? How does something that involve millions of hundreds of millions of years ago find a niche to thrive in that hasn't that only existed for the last couple hundred years aging spirits, but we only done that since consciously with only donations by the eighteen hundreds, and maybe we ve done it for a couple thousand years- let's say, but you know, how is it possible that some
it's that old found something found a place to live in something that new, which let me talk about cities and and and ecology and a whole bunch of other funds stuff that I'm interested in science. Ok, sorrow that and then in talking about all the that story and among other reporting that I was doing when, along with it in the world, the booze and science, some very good. Writers looked at me across the dinner table. One night said you know you have a book here and I said I do really what air which thing. What, then, can I just say it is a book and and and bill was a coup, is about to be the deputy editor of the time Sunday magazine, senior editor wired looked across the table in the said, will all of it so can now I've got my art, so there's about ok look got it book. Did you solve anything in the fungus story? He I he came very very close until the the big drinks come, is that he was working for decided that it was a lot easier to just paper. People to power wash their surfaces then try to explain like
but he was still but he became obsessed and he still he's the kind of works on the three time. He's really interested. Guy scum does logical work and fungus, which turns out to be an interesting field. Spangler exactly scores more than fungus, but then I didn't know how to make that into a book, because I didn't think that one story was, you could go. Eighty thousand words of like mysterious whisky fungus right And so I cannot choose on that for months and then I was looking at a and I knew to structurally roughly. You know that you want a book to be ready thousand words and Anne and a good chapter length is about eight thousand words like ok, any ten chapters, roughly in an introduction in conclusion, can be shorter, but that's first thing in the last things are really need. Eight chapters and you a chapter, is worth a thing to talk about. Please tell me that,
All of this that the way that you ended the book was just but in the end whisky makes you up guy. I did the tackling of those that I took one of those jokes into the future. Please it's Bob Stupid, put the whole thing. Is it so easy? So you start on this journey, with the thing that you don't even realize was a book, and then you had to figure out how to parts that into tennis actors and then will and then was like work. I can I I could do the process. You know I was looking at it at a graphic infographic of how The story works, and I realise there are these. This discreet steps started with fermentation they went distillation aging and then tasting the staff, and I said I east and sugar, at the front of that, and a real at literally counted on. My fingers like I'll, have eight angle from used to hang oversight. Eight, that's!
and and and then I realized it went once I started kind of trying to figure out what the reporting plan would be, that I had a lot of stuff in my file cabinet I've been collecting string on this since I've been at Newsweek of House Smell and taste worked in. Science of what kind of barley you're gonna grow for making beer and that just like weird little bits that I had found an xeroxed and put into a minnow folder, or you know copy the pdf and put in ever notice something ass time went on that. I had a lot of it that I'd cared about this free for a decade and a half of career without knowing what I was gonna do with it. So it was that it was the thing that, like I think this happened with your book to where you go. I wish there was a book that did x and there isn't right then you get oh well. I guess I could write that. That's a fun discovery when you realize you, surely there must be it
there's not, maybe there is, but it's not readily of well to anyone yet, if that I had that you do the same thing that I'm sure you did it, which is then, when you find out, you do more research and, finally, I guess there's a book, the kind but then totally different. What are you I'll tell you why I'll tell you why? Because I think, as having a lot of people talk themselves out of things where they go, there's probably already a thing like that, but you always forget that you are ultimately the most valuable asset that you're the most valuable factor and that equation, because you bring the specific point of view that even if someone else wrote a book This thing they're, not you and you have your own set of experience as much in the same way of like you know. When do you put used in it I says in: where did the water come from that's putting into the which gives you the variants for the specific type of flavour that something can create because of all of the you know: you're, not one dimensional parallel I see,
no, we don't see elegant writing trick. I mean you know what I try. Did I sort of trying to make the cases like look. You know I'm a science writer. I know how to do this. I can take hard science take a deep dive and art science and make an entertaining well I'm saying that a lot of famous like fuck. I hope I can t Johnny. I can take them right away to get internet. I really need to be able to do here is, and you know tat to the extent that successful or not, but that would that's the that's the year. The promise, at least so you you you you can see you thought of. Ok, I see what the chapters on and then you know without giving too much away so that people know troops can actually read the book. What was it because
I feel that you always no matter where you start no matter where you think you're going the process always to kind of alters year perspective, which is sort of get away. That's kind of what you want capacity has to you doing it wrong, but a good point. If Europe, if you're a reporter like beer, reporter, go out and find out stuff right and then when it turns out that something you find out totally overturns what you're hypothesis was this is what I hope being reporters. Allow typing a scientist when you're hypothesis overturned stop defending hypothesis, you falsified it have a new hypothesis. That's the difference between our and going back to what we're talking earlier. Are you trying to at all costs force your opinion on the world, or is your ultimate goal to understand or to find whatever you think, inasmuch as that, it can be whatever the truth is in that moment, and that is kind of exciting to find out. I think it's kind of exciting find out who the fuck this whole thing
I thought was wrong because here's the thing, here's, the real thing I used to say that an editor, an editor in chief of Wired, had to be a lot like the a very well funded and important laboratory at a university, because what the energy for and its, I think, is true of any magazine too, but the energy, the wire, especially as it's a technology and science and and and Business Culture magazine, has to have a very, very strong. One of you there's a hypothesis that we work, that we assigning editors will continue like as the post, docs and away will continue to try to do papers that that proved right. We'll keep trying to do that, you know, will keep trying to come up with more and more evidence and more more experiments that we can conduct that show that the world is the way we say it is, but.
At every turn. We have to make sure that if it's not that way, if the world is not that way, that we are the first ones to tell everybody that it's not that way, because otherwise somebody else's beating us right right, we have to be the ones who, if it turns out that our if it turns out that our fundamental operating hypothesis is utterly wrong. We gotta be the ones who say at first, because then we have a whole new fundamental of ours and we can operate with that to an that's exciting. That's that that's journalism and the world changes, and we are the first ones who can tell
that a changed if we're doing it right or you have heard you have, I policies that can encompass a lot of that change. Partly you're about this includes change some. So what did you? What changed for you? While you were somehow writing a book travelling and still being a senior editor wired magazine tat? Well, so I made him made some mistakes. Their family was very patient with, but in some have not rightly not so patiently, but I set out. I think if there is a difference- and maybe this is a slice in this kind of finally- that the the I published a book is that, like that, that alcohol shows up at every every major turning point in the sciences in science and technology. In man, if you can find the booze angle where like studying, booze or
things related to it or would lead to some quantum leap in the Sciences and, for example, well, for example, figuring out that yeast, where the agent behind fermentation and standing that it was enzymes that they made, that were the things that actually converted simple sugars and ethanol and carbon dioxide, which is what fermentation in right. That was the beginning, biochemistry that was what made you will go like. Oh there's this thing between biology and chemistry, and we should study it was trying to understand beer basically some, because human beings have been making it for ten thousand years without knowing how worked, which is amazing right. They just said Ellen this in this amiss you magically get. There's this weird alchemy that happens in your magically, get that it was craft you know, and as it is a scientist friend of my said, if you're doing, if you're, if you dont, have hypothesis you're, not doing science, you doing arts and crafts
that's one Xavier Solana, so I started with that, but it, but, as I started looking into it as I started doing, research and I started to find a lot of places where, if you asked enough questions of the researchers and in a bunch of fields, they would say I don't know so they would say well how does fermentation work basking keep asking when you finally get to a place where they say we don't know how this happens. We understand this step, I'm I'm I'm the first guy who's got a MRI machine set up. You can watch the can. You can see with enough resolution to see the different compounds in chemicals and molecules change. The amounts as east is processing is metabolizing sugar and that's it, and this is, hours, anybody's, ever got and actually see the intermediate steps of fermentation. But we don't really know that shock you from the sensory or like will. Surely people must know that and it happened again and again and again until I and the one that really blew my mind, syllables my managed in the talking about the effects of ethanol, a body in brain. If you, Push not even that hard at Neuro scientists and say: look how does ethanol work? Why does ethanol do what it does in the brain very quickly? They get to this point, we're there
They look, I'm like all the other recreational drugs and human beings use. However, you feel about, the Galileo morality that we use a lot right, unlike all the other ones, ethanol is the only one we don't have a mechanism articulated for we don't really know shit yeah exactly oh shit. Really. We really are because people, ten thousand beard the drinking of really and they like yeah we're still working on, and so what I would I ended up coming to us was expressing in the book how I felt at that moment, which has that's really exciting. That's great like at first, I thought: oh crap. What do I say in a book but about the science of this? If we don't know and the answers you say they don't know its awesome right. That's where the action is in science. We don't know is where is the exciting part of doing science? The solved stuff is, the boring part does
stuff that we already know about his is done. It finished its until somebody overturns it, which happens every so often print but the, but the parts where say where we just don't know how that works yet, but we're working on it are the things that make scientists most excited right, that's where careers are made and that's where, you know an addition that we're? U adding to the Canon of human knowledge, so that became an important part of the of the book to which is to say, like there are still things. We don't know about this thing that you think so familiar right and that's exciting, and did you learn things John cover things? Did you did you help science? I I don't think I'm of any help. This I mean. I, I think what I did have to do constantly had to come like come home or go to friends and check, and I would say like that, you know People is this widely known to people know, and my wife would like nobody does that make you you're you're the only non scientist. Who knows that you know it was like tat. You know,
it matters which barley they use for whisky if they some Barclays, Mary running out that the barley strain the using isn't quite working where they wanted to any more and it matters when it ripens and how tall the stock and how many barleycorn grown it and something people should like what he talked about they are made drunk. Your brain. You, like me, you know I have a better chance of that is a real. You know everything about humanity as a whole, not individuals that humanity as a whole. I think a lot like park where's like when you think of people as a whole, Do people really understand mass smash airports not like home? So you know. So I think what you were, what you're rightly asking is whether I broke any news in the book and I think I would probably be album. That's like anything I'll pump, brokenly news. I think I talked of
a lot of really interesting science and try to convey home, enthusiastic and interested, I was in and get that across is like this is really. This is really cool, but I think also what is happening is that now I'm just can't trying to spread the infection that makes me the most annoying person in the world? That is your gift, that is, I want to know how, because I also find you to be possibly the most nice person that I knew in terms of being able to release it seems that way from my perspective, because you have lot of shit to deal with on your desktop at one time and you still manage to an end use some sort through it all and be able to. You know, like really look at
These both individually and then holistically, and I can't think of any other big picture. Small patricia- and I heard you talking- and I just want you to give people a little bit of their behind the scenes before we rapid up your like. How do you say, organise and what tools I heard you use ever know like just after years and years and years of writing and coming up books, I, finally, and I gave ever note so many chances and I could never connect with it as a siesta brighter and I just finally reconnected with it. And I m really enjoying it. But how do you use you know? Do use tagging systems do use notebooks. Do you like what what other acts? rams. Do you so, I would say just broadly about these kind of productivity, apps and other I particularly whether something on your computer or pieces of paper. You know most notebooks whatever that like Is this learning curve of when you start to use them, and I think it's easy to fall into the trap of trying to learn a new one to procrastinate against it
thing you're actually wants to do, I tried to do so I tried to use for the four this book. I tried to use scrivener, which the writing- that's, how I read my book right and in Devon Think, which is like us, scooped up ever know, That also assume I built into it to make connections for you and dozens of other things too, and I tried to both of them and got to a point where I realized. Like you know, I actually have to be writing right. So many of the word and that's how this is going to be, and maybe next time scrivener you know, still stole my computer very powerful tool, but just one that I couldn't get behind fast enough grant. So I use em. I have ever known to collect a lot of stuff and I also stops and paper no books that I'll write down things and scribble possible outlines for stuff in a leather bag. Notebook can like moleskin, bribe a different one that I like, personal choice when I use ever note because it dumb because it oh, let me collect a lot of different kinds of media that I used to have to like me, collar copy
and then cut out and tape into the paper notebook chase to do a lot of, because I like out keep maps and and pictures and labels and as well as taking notes and stuff, get off the wellbeing and poor screen or something that related. And then I have a couple hundred tags, so things are getting tag with five or six different tags, and I was using for four journal articles. A program called Mandalay there's also something all papers. There are few applications out their primarily by academics to soar through because now If you have the right library access, you can get pdf of any journal article. So some I am able to catch that library, access and other times you can call the researcher anybody can call researcher
see payments a hey. Would you mind sending me a pdf of that article on those it yeah I'd, be happy that somebody cares. You know too, wants to read this thing. So that's a way to keep those against has tagging. You can also take notes and highlight stuff that I use that a lot with the book. I would highlight in that, as a reminder like in my outlines to myself, which I did a lot a hand handwritten and also tightened. I would point to a particular paper that I wanted to talk about and I could go to a paper and see what I'd highlighted to type in and then all these things also or nice, because their terrible and so with my fact, checker. I could share the whole folder with the fact checker young mind like yours, all the stuff. I chapter, an Excel spreadsheet of all of the sources that I interviewed and other contacting from. And whether I talked to them and what they talked about preach chapter organised by chapter. So I would all phone numbers and emails in one place then go back to and then use that also as a kind of to do list, because there
what I really wanted to talk to you, I can go back and say: oh, I have talked to them, yet I gonna call them again. It's been a week since I call that person. I got a call again, so that was the book stuff right and then there's the wired stuff, which is mostly organised by the way, though magazine is organised, so we have a whole copy flow process like when you chose to do stuff and whether it's done and I have folders on my desk- I, like you know these are features, pitch. These are features that I'm working right now. This is all the front book stuff. This is. These: are the maps of the front a book there are working on an that's, not the months that there's a cycle you cocoa and then there's your stuff at work to which were still working on a good copy, slow process for actually cause difficulties. You know doing videos whole new, wholly thing in very different than doing print to match. If you well, yes, so think. That's, I think, that's all the organizational stuff and some of it because I think you are
structure of an individual stories very different than structuring per day by day, I think is structured not not so well, sometimes, but. But fortunately because of the way the magazine as we are all structuring each other, I think so as well as were wrapping up here, five things that you think if someone, what what are your five months for the creator says, and if you want to make it specifically about writing a writing an article, what are five questions? You should ask or five things you should do the boy? Well, so what's the story can you tell it as a story? What's the exciting story that you would tell your friend? I understand this thing out Roca. What's that story notes? take so many different kinds of notes. In so many different places, no books typing in a typing in word, Some interviews notes that I write to myself stuff in ever note reminders. Whatever the two, this form is, I think that you gotta have one of those thinking:
I'm like reading in thinking time. You collect all this information, you can go, read it and then you gotta like chew on process it think about it. You have declared that time out. I find out Karla time out it's not as CS it used to be for me to sort of single like oh, that connects to that have to be like I'm going away for a while to ponder, did take notes on the stuff that I have to read. You known write that down that's three. It's always good have sounding boards and other people You know who ve been through the process you enter before or who just smart folksy. You respect, she talked somebody and say what do you think that that is this interesting? How would you do that and now and then I think also like I'm like a lot of journalists, an inveterate string gatherer. If I see something of interesting, I capture it somehow. No matter how right, but just keep it if it not like it's engine horny
Your house kicking digitally homelike hoard killer hoard on your heart into Google Taketsura dropbox, you know are both of which I used my lot. Then you, you know you can go back to it. To return to a new growth in every so often over. Three, like all right that was interesting. Actually I just saw something about that- I'm I'm working one story right now. That's must be writing, but I'm started yet so I feel guilty where a bunch of where I didn't realize until I got into it that a bunch of research I did for an abortive book project that I over that never win anywhere years ago. Seven eight years ago. Actually all that research comes back into play its like a week, all that stuff. I was doing it even notice it, but it's kind of about that again. Let me fish that out of wherever I still had it, so
Way and given another red and see what you know what I can bring to bear on this new project. Excellent respect, the data Adams Book Proof, the signs of booze this out it is it is, is the third week well done thanks man, congratulations, I'm so excited for you that you that you were able to do this. In addition to your other in incredibly high pressure responsibilities and, in addition to having a family and kids, so congratulations acts, I'm very sorry for you in and as always, I love that we're friends. And it's I'm always so happy to see you and get to talk to you. I would just call you in and when I was forced to be asked me about article. We would just talk about fuckin movies are, or or orbed paradigm like
comics or whatever was that you want. You didn't have all of these hit tv shows and pod gas and stuff. We could do that's more I've, but ok, that's that's where your priorities are getting things are much extra enjoy burrito everyone I and some burritos next book now leading noticed, com
Transcript generated on 2020-07-11.